A Path to Dominance: Pandemic Legion

JMoravia 2019-02-25

A collaboration between Paramemetic, Major Sniper (art), Guilford Australis, and J Moravia

Few people would dispute that New Eden’s current leader in military and economic strength is Goonswarm Federation, but how could another group take that crown? In the series A Path to Dominance, INN examines some of the major corporations and alliances in New Eden, giving an overview of their history and giving several ideas for things they can start doing, stop doing, or do differently if they want to achieve galactic dominance in the manner that Goonswarm presently enjoys.

Pandemic Legion

One of the oldest alliances remaining in the game, Pandemic Legion was formed in 2007 as a merger between founding corporation Sniggerdly and a handful of expatriate corps from the Curse region. Almost immediately they teamed up with Goonswarm to fight against Band of Brothers (BoB), who at that point were the most dominant alliance in the game. However, the Band of Developers scandal, seeming to prove the allegation that CCP was favoring its pet alliance, turned public opinion against BoB all over New Eden. BoB’s sudden implosion is a story in its own right, and in its aftermath, Pandemic Legion and Goonswarm organized a weeks-long cleanup patrol to kill all BoB structures left in space.

During this period, several Pandemic Legion Fleet Commanders (FCs), including the legendary Shadoo, led combined fleets including their own members, Goons, Razor Alliance, and many other entities.


Shadoo

These fleets, featuring a core of titans and dreadnoughts surrounded by a massive ball of random sub-capital tag-a-longs, were some of the most destructive forces ever mobilized in EVE. PL, still then a newcomer to the nullsec meta, established a reputation as a hard-hitting, aggressive, and disciplined alliance and showed its ability to lead other alliances. This foreshadowed the massive coalition it would eventually create. Later in 2009, PL teamed up with Goons again to record the game’s first ever titan kill by a subcapital fleet.

A Checkered Past

Having followed up its memorable splash into the game with several years spent consistently punching above its weight across nullsec, PL cemented its notoriety for high-level PvP. For three consecutive years, from 2008-2010, Pandemic Legion won the Alliance Tournament. This accomplishment, impressive as it was, displayed two sides of PL’s culture. They won widespread acclaim for meticulous training regimen and extensive preparation. But at the same time, the alliance was implicated in spying on its opponents in efforts to counter their doctrines in advance of the fights.

Similarly, PL has run into trouble with other tournaments, like the Syndicate Competitive League Tournament (SCL). In SCL 4, PL was exposed bribing tournament competitors to withdraw in order to secure a slot for the ‘PL B-team’. These actions contributed to the ‘checkered’ reputation PL has developed in recent years as the alliance began to compromise its claims of outright superiority through questionable tactics and rules-lawyering.

Null Politics

PL and Goonswarm remained on friendly terms for a few years. After the loss of sovereignty in Fountain to IT Alliance in 2009, however, PL decided to embrace a nomadic PVP lifestyle. This became a major part of their identity for more than half a decade. However, the nomadic lifestyle did not prevent Pandemic Legion from shaping the landscape of null. Along with allies in Northern Coalition. (NCdot), PL established the Brothers of Tangra (BOT) rental alliance. And, once again in cooperation with NCdot, they buttressed TEST Alliance Please Ignore (TEST), when that alliance faced an invasion from Goonswarm in 2013.  When New Eden’s most destructive battle to date took place at B-R5RB, in January of 2014, PL was a major player. For years afterward, PL continued to terrorize alliances both large and small through rapid supercapital deployments calculated to surprise and overwhelm unprepared adversaries.

Things began to change with the advent of Aegis Sovereignty in mid-2015, and the following year’s Casino War. In 2016, PL went back to their roots, teaming up with allies to attack the most dominant alliance in the game. This brought them into conflict once more with Goonswarm. PL played a crucial role in the ensuing Casino War, and assisted their PanFam allies Northern Coalition, Pandemic Horde, and Guardians of the Galaxy in conquering former Goon territory in Deklein, Fade, and the surrounding regions. The campaign is indisputably the high-water mark of PL’s influence on the nullsec meta. In the end, PanFam’s victory saw the Imperium defeated. Goonswarm, the Bastion, Tactical Narcotics Team (TNT), and Get Off My LAWN (LAWN) were driven into exile in the south. Circle-of-Two turned coat to join the attackers. Fidelas Constans and Razor escaped east as husks of their former strength. Spacemonkey’s Alliance was shattered, limping off to Outer Ring with near-fatal wounds. 

Recent history, however, has not been quite so kind to PL. In January 2018 PL invaded Providence, attempting to seize sovereignty across the region before the conversion of NPC stations to valuable faction Fortizars. However, shortly before this conversion, PL was pushed back out of Providence by TEST, losing their chance at claiming the Fortizars. In the summer of 2018, PL and its allies were on the wrong end of a savage beating by an unlikely confederation of the Imperium and Legacy Coalition, a war of reckoning fought as revenge for PL’s role in the Casino War. PL has had a measure of success blunting TEST’s campaign against Pandemic Horde, playing a crucial role in several major victories during January.

So what are some things that Pandemic Legion will need to start doing, or stop doing, or do differently in order to be dominant in New Eden?

Paramemetic: Be Realistic

2015, 2016, even 2017 Pandemic Legion was a force to be reckoned with. They were the (somewhat) undisputed greatest power in space. Even the Imperium would have to trade blows, it wasn’t just a thrashing. During the Casino War PL was a real power. 2018, 2019 PL though? Not what they used to be. That’s okay! PL has to be realistic. It has to recognize its place in the galaxy. Nobody is afraid of the PL boogeyman in the South now. Nobody should be! TEST and the Imperium have both shown their ability to take PL in a square fight. PL needs Northern Coalition (NCdot) to make numbers, and PL has been bleeding corps and alliances for the better part of a year now.

All of this is okay! Every empire goes through ebbs and flows. The sun also rises! But only when we recognize that things aren’t perfect are we going to be a in a position where we can start to fix them. PL needs to be realistic. It’s not the home of the undisputed masters of PvP anymore. It’s not the super elite. It can’t afford to just sit back and rest on its rental empire. PL needs to start rebuilding, and the first step to that is recognizing that there’s a need to rebuild.

Guilford Australis: Return to Your Roots

Pandemic Legion is a strange organization that has never been motivated by the conventional concerns of EVE – in other words, the things that are important to you, me, and all the other capsuleers without (-10.0) tickers next to their names. Consequently, I will divide my observations into things PL could do to strengthen its position and achieve dominance – but will not do – and things I think PL might actually do to get itself to a better place. And make no mistake: PL has diminished into a shell of its former glory. Its enemies no longer flee the field or refuse to undock after learning PL has joined the fight. If PL wants to reclaim its ‘Elite PVP’ reputation, it must adapt or it will lose even the modest following its still maintains.

Adapting to Aegis Sovereignty (FozzieSov) appears to be off the table for PL. The alliance refuses to accept that rental empires are no longer a path to long-term success and prosperity. Just a few nights ago, I joined The Imperium’s Liberty Squad to dunk a botting Hel belonging to PL renter Rate My Ticks – in PL’s own backyard. PL showed no evidence of realizing or caring that its renters were being attacked in an obvious way by its worst enemies that could have been countered. Liberty Squad passed through many empty systems with default-level ADMs (EVE’s system for strengthening sovereignty based on PVE activity) and faced no resistance from PL or any of its allies. This represents a nearly perfect failure to embrace the sovereignty mechanics implemented by CCP four years ago. PL should adapt to the new sovereignty meta, but I doubt it will.

The only way forward for PL, given its strengths, priorities, and refusal to adapt to FozzieSov, is to return to a nomadic, PVP-centric play style. PL should abandon most of its claims to sovereignty outside of its current holdings in Vale of the Silent. Neither PL nor its renters currently utilize the space they hold, which creates vulnerabilities that PL’s enemies have not yet exploited. To save itself from embarrassment and a position of strategic weakness, PL should pull up roots and re-commit to its former philosophy of seeking out good fights wherever they are to be found in New Eden. This will require PL to commit its considerable capital and supercapital reserves to fights that it may not win. Although PL historically has avoided conflicts with uncertain outcomes, it no longer dominates the meta of nullsec and can no longer dictate terms of engagement. PL’s reluctance to engage its capital and supercapital forces has created a slow-motion failure cascade in which many members hemorrhaged out to more ambitious alliances such as Skill Urself and We Form V0lta. To prevent the failure cascade from reaching its terminal outcome, PL must accept that its rental empire has failed and its priorities lie in a play style that brought it the fame and respect it once enjoyed.

J Moravia: Play to Your Strengths

What does “dominance” look like for an alliance that only has 2500 members, a mere 7% as many as Goonswarm Federation? Obviously PL will not be Monthly Economic Report champions, will not be winning many battles by outnumbering their opponents (which is why they went after Providence), will not be controlling vast swaths of space under the PL banner. It doesn’t even make sense for PL to incentivize mining and ratting, the way some other alliances might; PL’s specialty is PvP, and organizations should always focus on their core competencies. Yet in the modern EVE, where industrial might is arguably more important than military prowess, can an intentionally small, elite, PvP-focused alliance actually exert dominance?

Yes. Here are three things they need to do:

    1. Fight winnable wars, regularly. Remind people of how good you are and what you can accomplish. This is why invading Providence was such a disaster for PL: literally nobody was impressed at them kicking lumps out of Provi-bloc. If anything, the campaign was embarrassing for how long it took and how quickly they were kicked out by TEST. If PL wants to keep being thought of as an elite PvP alliance, they need to engage in – and win – elite PvP, and they need to do it often enough to keep the thought fresh in people’s heads.
    2. Leverage that prowess into a seat at the table. With their PvP reputation being regularly re-established, PL needs to use that reputation in order to drive all the decisions of PanFam coalition. They need to ensure that every military decision goes through them: all decisions about where to attack and where to defend have to be made by PL, because as the elite PvP backbone of PanFam, their strategic and tactical thinking should be beyond doubt. Even if, as Guilford suggested, PL only hold a minimal amount of sovereign space – or none at all – their combat ability can still allow them to steer the coalition.
    3. Find a more reliable source of income than renting. Again, a PvP specialist alliance will never be great at generating income. PL has historically fixed this problem by renting out portions of their space to alliances who pay them for the privilege of ratting and mining under PL’s protection. This arrangement has not gone exceptionally well for PL or their renters, because the whole concept is silly: how much sense does it make to rent from a PvP alliance, who by definition will frequently be absent on long deployments, during which they can’t adequately guard their space? The question of rental income and its viability is beyond the scope of this article, but let us consider two things: 1) even an elite PvP alliance will never be able to keep its territory fully secure; and 2) it looks really, really bad for an elite PvP alliance when it can’t, or won’t, actually form up to keep its tenants from being dumpstered. PL may want to return to its mercenary roots and earn money from doing what they do best anyway. They may want to branch out into wormholes, and take advantage of the greater ISK per hour that can be earned there. Earning income is a problem that will not be going away; members need money to buy ships and the alliance needs cash to pay ship replacement. Finding a sustainable solution to that problem – a solution which doesn’t take PL away from its core competency of PvP – has to be a priority. In past years the answer to that question has been the Alliance Tournament, which was worth an estimated trillion ISK to the alliance each time it won; however, PL has not won the AT since 2015, and with the 2019 tournament canceled, PL will not be able to bank on that source of ISK.

What do you think, readers? What are some things Pandemic Legion needs to start doing, stop doing, or do differently in order to become the most dominant power in New Eden?

EDITOR’S NOTE: The original text of this article indicated that Shadoo was recently active. This was an error brought on by a number of ships ‘delivered to’ Shadoo in the Rage Keepstars, which were destroyed after the citadels died. Shadoo has not been active since 2015 at the latest. This has been corrected, and other matters clarified.

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Comments

  • pterry

    “including the legendary Shadoo, who still flies with allies of PL”

    hello, can someone who actually knows anything about PL re-write this?

    February 25, 2019 at 3:22 PM
    • Reality Check pterry

      Or go the other way. Punch it up with more dragons and evil twins and time travel plot.

      February 25, 2019 at 3:32 PM
    • Guilford Australis pterry

      https://zkillboard.com/character/717397234/

      He spent the past year showing up on the Pandemic Legion side of killmails. Anything you’d like to add?

      February 25, 2019 at 4:09 PM
      • blackman1111 Guilford Australis

        He hasn’t done anything since 2015, idk where u getting past year?

        February 25, 2019 at 4:58 PM
        • Arrendis blackman1111

          It’s the 3 ships that were delivered to him in Rage and killed when they dropped. They did the same thing to generate Vile Rat kills. If you don’t know it’s bogus, you can be misled. It’s been fixed.

          February 25, 2019 at 8:03 PM
          • blackman1111 Arrendis

            hope this isnt directed to me

            February 25, 2019 at 8:10 PM
          • Arrendis blackman1111

            Directed to you? I’m explaining why the author thought Shadoo was active. ie: ‘idk where u getting past year?’
            https://zkillboard.com/character/717397234/

            See the 3 losses in j-space in December? He didn’t realize where those came from, so he thought the character was logged in.

            February 25, 2019 at 8:34 PM
  • Alaric Faelen

    A point missed in these analysis is the fact that PL and their allies all have gained reputations for abandoning or betraying allies. They take in or ally with people that simply cannot be trusted with valuables lest they make off with them, secrets lest they share them, or defense lest they abandon their posts. That’s a leadership issue.

    They’re also going to need to be better predictors of the shifting meta. Perhaps the biggest factor in the current success of GSF is forward thinking leadership. Our economic model has been no secret for some time but other alliances have been slow to transition and continued to cling to out dated methods of isk generation and defense.

    GSF benefits from some very talented key personnel. Any alliance with these people in them would do well. But we manage to gather them together, keep them happy so they stay, and in return they share that expertise with the EveryGoon. That sort of team building is something that GSF excels at and is the foundation upon which our strength is built.
    If PL, or any alliance for that matter wants to compete, they will need to first step up their game at team building at the head shed.

    February 25, 2019 at 4:01 PM
  • Alexandre Vivo Rodrigues

    I believe most renters from PL and NC. are actually alliance member alts, renting for themselves, keeping their elitist PVP toons separate from their RMT or BOT money making corps. Keeping a nomadic style won’t allow them to have a productivity compared to GSF’s, as they won’t be able (and seems not willing to) have a defensive umbrella like GSF’s.
    In order to change things they would need to make an umbrella for themselves, but for some reason they refuse to do that, or simply do not have enough resources to keep a defensive fleet online (or refuse to help those renters out of pride, even those renters being their corp mates)

    February 25, 2019 at 4:39 PM
    • Guilford Australis Alexandre Vivo Rodrigues

      I’ve heard this rumor, too, but it’s difficult to confirm because PL has been known to start these kinds of rumors themselves. They’ve also claimed that they do all their krabbing in Delve on Imperium alts, for example. They tend to nudge (or create) whatever narrative makes them seem more crafty and devious than they really are. I tend to be skeptical that PL renters are actually PL alts simply because their space is being used so badly. I’ve flown all over Vale, Tribute, and Tenal and seen many empty systems with default ADMs. No one’s getting rich out there, from what I can tell.

      PL’s history and culture incline me to believe they make more money from RMT than conventional krabbing. That is one reason I think a nomadic style would still be viable without the rental empire.

      February 25, 2019 at 7:10 PM
      • The vaster irony in your theory (which I do believe is completely true mind you) is that if you close the loop – where are they buying from? – the answer is obvious and available in the MER.

        Delve produces mammothly more everything than everywhere else but has only closed to “parity” (and now “a bit in front of”) Panfam.

        Panfam has nearly no income but isn’t really falling dramatically behind in titan count.

        For every buyer, there is a seller.

        February 26, 2019 at 12:44 AM
        • Zaand Mick

          Since the days of the collapse of the NC, CFC/Imperium have standing orders to never sell supers outside of the coalition. Next to the rules on Goon-fucking, this is about the most absolute and strongly enforced writ in the coalition.

          Besides, we can’t build supers fast enough to meet demand of our own members, we have zero weed to sell outside of the coalition.

          February 26, 2019 at 10:35 PM
  • Noob

    The constant push to rename World War Bee is just pathetic.

    February 25, 2019 at 5:42 PM
    • Zaand Noob

      They do it just to trigger people like you.

      February 25, 2019 at 5:48 PM
      • Noob Zaand

        Yet lookat the responses to see you actually WAS triggered.

        LMAO

        February 26, 2019 at 5:14 PM
        • Guilford Australis Noob

          What I see is a handful of Good Samaritans educating the ignorant. Now “lookat” the responses and see if you can guess who the ignorant one is.

          February 26, 2019 at 6:32 PM
    • J Moravia Noob

      I can’t imagine why anyone would prefer a name that conveys no meaningful content over a name that clearly explains why the war took place.

      February 25, 2019 at 5:56 PM
    • Moomin Amatin Noob

      Goons – War of Sovless Aggression
      CCP – Easter War
      Money Badger Coalition – World War Bee
      Noisy Gamer – The Casino War

      Casinos were the driving force of the conflict and goons accepted that it was a better name for the conflict. World War Bee is a great name but for the fact that goons are not only still in the game but thriving in a way that has never been seen before. You can call the war what you like but if you do be prepared for World War Bee to actually define the rise of goons and not their fall.

      February 25, 2019 at 10:26 PM
    • Guilford Australis Noob

      “Rename?” Did CCP convene some historical preservation society to canonize that name? As Moomin points out, there are at least four commonly accepted names for the (primarily) northern war lasting from late 2015 through most of 2016 (though Goons contend that the hostilities never actually ceased and, in fact, continue to this day).

      World War Bee is a cute meme and that’s all it is. If that’s your favorite way to describe this war, then wear it out. Most INN staff writers (even those who are not allied with Goonswarm) use the term Casino War because it identifies the sine qua non of the war, which serves a more useful purpose for journalism than, say, a cute meme.

      February 26, 2019 at 2:17 PM
      • Goons contend that the hostilities never actually ceased and, in fact, continue to this day

        We further contend that these hostilities are the same hostilities that began against BoB. They just call themselves NCdot now.

        February 26, 2019 at 2:25 PM
      • Yes, CCP did infact canonize the war, complete with ingame portrait backgrounds theme’d to the wars two sides.

        March 1, 2019 at 7:31 PM
        • Arrendis Grath

          CCP went all over the map with that one, though. First they called it ‘The Easter War’, then they threw in with ‘World War Bee’ and created the original portrait backgrounds… then they made some statement about ‘we shouldn’t have seemed to be taking sides’ and changed one of the backgrounds… I tend to just filter their chaos on the issue out completely.

          March 1, 2019 at 8:36 PM
          • Grath Arrendis

            If that helps you rationalize your choice thats fine, but, The Casino war was never presented in game at all, and World War Bee was, complete with ingame created assets. If we’re going for reality here and not some narrative push, this one is pretty damn easy to get.

            March 1, 2019 at 8:39 PM
          • Arrendis Grath

            Eh, I don’t much care what’s it’s called, myself, I was just looking at the chain of CCP’s ‘official’ position on it. Long as people know which war they’re talking about, it’s fine. After all, ‘The Great War’, ‘The War to End All Wars’, ‘World War I’ (only got used once there was a sequel)… or, for the sequel: ‘World War II’, ‘The Great Patriotic War’… hell, just in the States, the American Civil War gets called different things. As recently as 30 years ago, official curriculum in some Southern States refused to use ‘Civil War’ and insisted on ‘The War Between the States’. So, you know, whatever folks wanna call it. As I said below, I see it all still as a continuation of the ‘Great War’… but then, I see the Cold War as a continuation of the Napoleonic Wars, which were continuations of the French and English succession wars, which…

            … man, people do a lot of warring over old grudges.

            March 1, 2019 at 9:50 PM
  • Zaand

    PL’s MO for the last 10 years:
    1)Find a conflict and weasle your way onto the winning side.
    2)Dogpile the shit out of every fight with supers while using your “allies” as a meat shield.
    3a)If your “allies” win, claim the victory as solely yours.
    3b)If your “allies” start to lose because they listened to your terrible advice, claim you were only there for the “gudfights” and then retreat to the other side of the galaxy late one night, leaving your “allies” dangling in the breeze.
    4)Rinse, repeat.

    February 25, 2019 at 5:47 PM
    • Alaric Faelen Zaand

      I think you forgot– leave allied supers to die while evacuating your faction titans to safety.

      February 26, 2019 at 3:04 PM
  • Moomin Amatin

    To my mind the main reason for the decline of PL relates to their brand being tainted. There are other more attractive alliance options out there. Ones where you will not need to drop corp to save your killboard stats. Ones that look to develop talent and to take risks.

    PL was able for many years to cherry pick talent from elsewhere. There was no need to create an internal infrastructure that promoted new talent. Recruitment was based heavily on already being able in a useful area. The PL spy network was hugely effective meaning that risks did not need to be taken. It became a case of knowing everything their enemy at the time would do. This path led PL to always looking for certain victories. Punching down was the way to go. Brave, Test, Provi and a host of others are testament to that. All the time PL had titan/super advantages.

    However, the gap closed. New alliances appeared that had a better brand. They did stuff and took risks, or at least appeared to. Game mechanics affected the play style of PL and they seemed unable to adapt when the “I win” buttons were removed.

    Now they are a hollow shell of their former glory. Joining PL now no longer offers bragging rights or surrounding yourself with capable pilots and leadership. The PL of today is a very different beast from the past. By just looking at dotlan you can see that people are voting with their feet and PL is just not able to offer what players want.

    Perhaps it is too late for PL now. The changes required to restore their reputation is a herculean task. There is a real risk of PL continuing this decline and folding into PH or NC, both of which seem to have a better product.

    February 25, 2019 at 10:44 PM
  • Lord Benz

    This was a whole lot of words to say “they no longer have the most titans”.
    Also:
    “Later in 2009, PL teamed up with Goons again to record the game’s first ever titan kill.”
    The first titan kill was performed by BOB in 2006.

    February 26, 2019 at 2:31 AM
    • J Moravia Lord Benz

      Thanks for pointing out the titan thing; the sentence originally had “by a subcapital fleet” at the end of it, which I must have removed by accident (along with the link to my source) while playing with the formatting. I’ve updated the sentence and put the source link back in. I appreciate the observation.

      February 26, 2019 at 11:17 AM
  • Eli

    Most of the bigger successful MMO games have some kind of integration between PVE and PVP. That interaction, allows elite groups to work the market to get the goods and then train and work together to get really great at pvp. It’s the close knit community and striving for excellence that makes pvp guilds/alliances do well at combat.

    However, in Eve. N+1 is what truly wins the day. That Zerg that the Imperium has going can’t really be defeated. In order for PL to be the spear head, they need to sit in the centre of an industrial alliance that can also serve as their militia. Currently, Pandemic Horde is not an industrial power base. Unlike Darkness, who at least have SLYCE, PanFam lacks an industrialist powerhouse alliance to build their future. They need to team up with a great industrialist entity (say Fraternity) and add that to their core team of leadership.

    The alternative, is to become masters of assymetric warfare and just specialise in black ops type gameplay. That style means N+1 is no longer relevant and you can strike with impunity. Sadly, PL has invested far too much in Titans to go completely down that road.

    One thing’s for sure, if you want the same result, do the same thing. PL cannot afford to do the same thing.

    February 26, 2019 at 3:27 AM
    • J Moravia Eli

      One interesting example of asymmetric warfare came during the X47L-Q battle, when PL parked nearly a hundred e-war frigates on grid and kept spamming the burst jam in the hopes of taking down the server node. If you can’t beat ’em, take the game offline, or something like that.

      February 26, 2019 at 11:20 AM
      • pterry J Moravia

        lmao that was horde. proving again that you don’t know enough to write a fair article

        February 26, 2019 at 12:54 PM
        • J Moravia pterry

          If you think Horde made that decision all by themselves with no direction from the people who were bringing supers and titans to the fight, then I really don’t know what to tell you.

          February 26, 2019 at 2:39 PM
        • J Moravia pterry

          Do you think Horde made that decision all by themselves with no direction whatsoever from the people who were bringing titans and supers?

          Though I say that, and after checking two battle reports, it seems that PL only actually brought a handful of pilots to X47. The zKill report shows only 3 PL ships dead out of the nearly 900 total ships killed on the NC/PanFam side:

          https://zkillboard.com/related/30001967/201808011900/
          While the br.inyour.space report (teams obviously messed up) doesn’t show PL on the list at all:
          https://br.inyour.space/?s=1967&b=8196180&e=90&t=vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

          So unless both battle reports are wrong (which is possible), it looks like PL opted for an entirely different form of asymmetrical warfare, which is to simply not show up and defend their coalition ally’s staging Keepstar because they’re worried about getting dumpstered.

          February 26, 2019 at 2:49 PM
          • Garreth Vlox J Moravia

            I think you’re confusing horde’s pathetic attempt to crash the node with burst jammer frigs and the bounty system to save the timer with PL’s meaningless show of force when they dropped their titans out of range of most of the goon fleet at the hull timer for X47. Both in the end wound up looking like uncoordinated attempts at relevance in a fight where the strategy needed to be coordinated at the coalition level. And for both the armor and hull timers, the north seemed dead set on not really planning anything besides, 1) drop the supers and 2) pray the node shits the bed long enough for the timer to reset.

            March 3, 2019 at 2:24 AM
          • Thomas Low J Moravia

            Woww…… how can you be sooo ignorent….. PL was down in south fighting with test while Dead Co. NC, PH, CO2 was fighting up North…. NC. orginazed the defense of X47. This was only 6 months ago…. how can you not fking know this ?????

            March 3, 2019 at 9:58 PM
          • Thomas Low J Moravia

            NC was in charge of northern defense while PL helping Winter Co. and friends to fight test….. pls get ALL your facts right before you write another word.

            March 3, 2019 at 10:06 PM
    • Zaand Eli

      That would require PL to have to admit that another entity in the game is their equal; completely anathema.

      February 26, 2019 at 10:40 PM
    • Garreth Vlox Eli

      “PanFam lacks an industrialist powerhouse alliance to build their future.” They don’t just lack it, they actively scorn and ridicule anyone who attempts to create such an industrial group in their space.

      March 3, 2019 at 2:20 AM
  • Patrick Pulfer

    I always admired and respected PL for their odds of fighting outnumbered in an elite fashion and supercapital power projection with their outstanding logistics operations.

    This admiration died when I hear their main FC ordering faction titans to dock in a major fight just to not give positive killboard stats to the enemy. Imagine all the dedication and hard work from those pilots to even get these expensive ships into battle to glorify PL’s name and then being ordered to dock. No moral can keep up.

    February 26, 2019 at 9:04 AM
    • J Moravia Patrick Pulfer

      That’s one of the real difficulties of being in PL’s position. It’s not enough that they are good at PvP; they have to be continually perceived as being good at PvP. That leads to them making combat decisions on the basis of “How is this going to look,” which isn’t a real great way to fight a battle or a war.

      February 26, 2019 at 11:33 AM
    • Arrendis Patrick Pulfer

      For the record, Killah was in NCdot, not PL, when he gave that order.

      February 26, 2019 at 2:23 PM
    • All of those stories of PL fighting outnumbered are either very old (like pre 2011), anecdotal, or pure fabrication. PL is really great at fooling “lesser” alliances then themselves into being meat shields, while claiming themselves as noble third party.

      February 26, 2019 at 10:38 PM
  • J Moravia

    I’ve found the overall tone of these comments very educational. By and large, the PL apologists are exclaiming “But what about this little nitpicky detail!” while completely ignoring the larger issues raised, and solutions proposed, by the article. That obsessive majoring on the minors, and refusing to engage with reality, is pretty illustrative of how a formerly successful group (in any game or field) ends up losing prestige and power.

    February 26, 2019 at 8:59 PM
  • Pee Wee

    PL sucks. They got their own for attacking Providence. Kick up the sandcastle of little boy not a nice thing, now they stomped to the ground by TEST.

    February 28, 2019 at 5:06 AM
    • Guilford Australis Pee Wee

      PL boasted on Reddit for a year that they would conquer Providence using only subcapitals. But two months into the campaign, after it became clear things weren’t going spectacularly well, PL started dropping supers on anything that undocked – mining barges, ratters, entosis frigates… anything larger than a pod. Sure, they kept their killboards green (always a top priority for these folks) and finished the campaign, but they earned enough scorn from the rest of EVE that it was inevitable they’d be smacked down by someone, and TEST was happy to oblige.

      PL simply doesn’t command the respect it once did. I think that theme came through in all three perspectives in the article. These days when I see PL on the winning side of a killmail it’s usually (1) a gatecamp, (2) a handful of bombers third-partying on a PH/NC op, or (3) a random cap/super drive-by in some backwater system. Not exactly the stuff of legend.

      February 28, 2019 at 4:01 PM
      • Garreth Vlox Guilford Australis

        you forgot 4) a meaningless fleet of jackdaws that showed up to whore on caps their allies were already killing without needing any help.

        March 3, 2019 at 2:18 AM
  • Grath

    What a crock of shit this whole thing is. INN, people who weren’t there, writing about shit they dont know about.

    You guys just put out dumb ass internal propaganda pieces these days I see.

    March 1, 2019 at 12:57 AM
    • J Moravia Grath

      Of all the criticism that could be leveled against an article you don’t like, “They weren’t there” is hands down the most intellectually vacant. What percentage of the world’s news do you think is written by people who were physically present for the events they’re describing? 1%? Less?

      I mean, if you extend that attitude to the whole of human thought, then history cannot happen, because all of history is merely a reporting (by people who weren’t there) of what happened (according to people who were there or who heard from people who were there).

      March 1, 2019 at 4:27 PM
      • Grath J Moravia

        Here’s the thing though, those people dont write a bunch of fake ass shit that they then try and pass as factual. They do actual research and interviews.

        You can 100% tell you did neither.

        March 1, 2019 at 6:24 PM
        • J Moravia Grath

          You seem to be laboring under the impression that we set out to write a definitive history of PL. We did not. We attempted to summarize the 12-year history of one of the most storied alliances in the game in the space of three paragraphs, at the beginning of an article explaining how they can improve their current situation. That sort of compression necessitated a significant amount of simplification, and tough decisions about what to include and what to leave out. I believe you’ll find that everything we included is well sourced from EVE’s official forums, from mainstream tech publications, from other EVE news sites, or from other reliable sources.

          I notice that none of the PL apologists in this thread have made the slightest attempt to discuss PL’s decline in power and prestige, or how to reverse it. They’re only interested in obsessing over minute details of history – a true and indisputable sign of an alliance whose glory days are behind them and in no danger of returning.

          March 1, 2019 at 6:54 PM
          • Grath J Moravia

            Or, it’s a sign that people want you to be factually accurate. I guess it never dawned on you that people arent taking issue with your claims of decline because there’s nothing to take issue with there, Ray Charles (who is both dead AND blind) can see that. Gowever people ARE taking issue with the factual inaccuracies and outright lies you’ve told in here.

            These were really glaring and obviously showed you A)weren’t there and B) didn’t get your information from any actual source, you plucked old memes, and rumors and passed them off as somehow accurate depictions of historical events.

            Your problem is that there’s still enough us around that WERE there.

            March 1, 2019 at 7:04 PM
          • J Moravia Grath

            Only one concrete example of a “historical inaccuracy” in the article has been demonstrated in the entire 50-odd comments, and that one was promptly fixed. The people claiming errors have really two choices: name what those specific errors are so we can compare their memory with the historical record and see who’s right and who’s wrong, or admit that what they consider a “historical inaccuracy” is merely them not liking the way the facts end up portraying a group that was special to them at the time.

            March 1, 2019 at 7:20 PM
          • Grath J Moravia

            If I go through this line by line and dissect every single error, and include the comment section you will be left with not much of an article. So are you saying that if I go through and correct this you’re willing to remove the article entirely, or take it down and rewrite it to something not so fucking obviously dumb to anybody who actually played?

            March 1, 2019 at 7:27 PM
          • Arrendis Grath

            You know, Grath… it occurs to me that as things recede into the past, memory gets hazy and the people who remember become less and less available. It might not be a bad idea to have a series of ‘Alliance History In Their Own Words’ pieces out there.

            After all, even the people involved, if they weren’t above a certain level in varying org charts, might not know the big picture about a lot of things.

            March 1, 2019 at 8:33 PM
          • Grath Arrendis

            One of my serious pet peves is the alteration, perversion and outright distortion of known history by people too lazy to do the foot work.

            So when i see them say things like “nobody responds to our requests” when people like me and Elise have given literally shit tons of interviews and even written articles over the years, it kinda pisses me off, because its an open bold faced lie. They didn’t get a response because they didn’t ask.

            Your idea would be good to help keep people from doing shit like they’ve done here.

            March 1, 2019 at 8:43 PM
          • Arrendis Grath

            Yeah, but they might not know where to find those articles and interviews. Kind of a pity CCP doesn’t have a version of their updated source material that covers players’ stories… since, you know, they say those are important.

            March 1, 2019 at 9:44 PM
          • Grath Arrendis

            Do you know this site is guilty as well of not maintaining good records?

            You see comments in here about “lol PL RMT”, only we used to publish a very public record of accounting, down to the last penny, on this very site. People were amazed at our meticulous record keeping.

            You see people make the comment “lol PL want you to drop corp before you die” when there used to be a recording of us literally screaming at a guy for not eating his loss and asking about self destructing.

            So when you say its a shame, it sure is, but its more of a shame when people that have the record don’t keep it AND attempt to obscure that same record.

            March 1, 2019 at 10:03 PM
          • Arrendis Grath

            I know we lost a lot of the old TMC archives when we transferred the back end over, yeah. And I was extremely ‘Not thrilled’ about it. But we ran into technical and time constraints, and frankly, we were probably a bunch of idiots in how we went about copying everything over.

            So, yeah, I agree that it is more of a shame when sites that have that kind of record don’t hang onto it. And I agree that we bear our share of responsibility for failing to do it. (And by that, I mean we, the editors, and myself specifically, not the back-end guys. It’s not their job to think of ways to make our lives easier.)

            Obviously, though, I don’t agree that there was any kind of intentional attempt to obscure things. People forget. Even people who shouldn’t. And newer folks never knew, so they have nothing to go on. We’re working on ways to prevent that, going forward. Sometimes, you don’t notice your blind spots until someone punches you from them.

            Put simply: it was a fuckup, Grath, not malice.

            March 2, 2019 at 4:46 PM
          • Monasucks Grath

            So Garth if you like the idea – go ahead and post!

            March 27, 2019 at 10:07 AM
    • Arrendis Grath

      Dude, you know you’re always welcome to pen a rebuttal piece. Absent any of the usual ‘can’t publish an -ism’ issues, I’ll make sure it gets published.

      March 1, 2019 at 5:09 PM
      • Grath Arrendis

        Peeling this piece of shit apart would be a 10 part article oh, I can get three more articles just out of blasting the retards in the comment section

        March 1, 2019 at 6:28 PM
        • Arrendis Grath

          13 articles? I’m ok with that.

          March 1, 2019 at 8:11 PM
          • Monasucks Arrendis

            I am waiting for Garth articles

            March 27, 2019 at 10:05 AM
    • Guilford Australis Grath

      Certain entities in EVE – Pandemic Legion chief among them – decline every opportunity for comment or interview when we write these articles, then become incensed when the articles aren’t what they had hoped for. Perhaps you can help me understand this phenomenon.

      March 1, 2019 at 5:27 PM
      • I’ve never been contacted by this site since I stopped writing for it for any information or fact checking at all, to my knowledge neither had anybody else. I asked. The volume of history available about PL is pretty amazing, then to only see it all ignored while this turd is penned.

        You never tried, you just guessed your way through.

        March 1, 2019 at 6:27 PM
        • Guilford Australis Grath

          I’ve never heard of you. Are you an authoritative source for PL? Plugged into leadership and authorized to comment? Willing to go on the record for every future article I write or collaborate on regarding PL?

          Great. I look forward to your contributions.

          March 1, 2019 at 6:31 PM
          • Lol, does an article on PL, does not know who I am, asks if “leadership” would authorize my comments, then questions why I’m calling him and the writers of this article an idiot.

            Work through this one sherlock.

            March 1, 2019 at 6:56 PM
          • Guilford Australis Grath

            I assume you’re wondering why your former alliance has become impotent, irrelevant, and uniquely vulnerable to ridicule. Shall I help you work through that thorny question?

            March 1, 2019 at 6:58 PM
          • Does this kind of shitty deflection actually work on anybody you know?

            You literally just outed yourself in a post as being clueless and now you’re just trying to handwave it away like an Iraq war minister?

            March 1, 2019 at 7:06 PM
          • Guilford Australis Grath

            Remind us again (or tell us for the first time) what your factual disagreements are with this article.

            March 1, 2019 at 7:07 PM
          • It’s wrong? Like every single paragraph has something factually inaccurate.

            It took actual effort to ignore history at this point, or you assumed nobody who actually played back then was still around.

            March 1, 2019 at 7:13 PM
          • Guilford Australis Grath

            Is this what you call “shitty deflection?” One might just wonder.

            I’ve learned something – an inviolate axiom, actually – related to stories about EVE and those who comment on them. The people (like you) who claim to have special knowledge of events that are fairly well attested in the historical record and are, thus, readily available to those (like me) investigating them in our own time are not nearly as important as they think they are and insist they are. Now you think about that for a bit.

            March 1, 2019 at 7:17 PM
          • K, thought about it, still doesn’t validate your outright lies in this article.

            At this point its lies, not mistakes as you’re absolutely all in here with your stupidity.

            March 1, 2019 at 7:25 PM
          • Guilford Australis Grath

            No one can judge whether these unspecified matters are ‘lies’ or ‘mistakes’ until you list your disagreements with the article. I’ve asked and other commenters have, too. List your grievances or get outta town. (Or submit your own rebuttal story to INN – not only is that a perfectly good option, you’ll get paid for it, too).

            March 1, 2019 at 7:42 PM
          • In the first paragraph, you are wrong about:

            The formation of PL

            PL and Goonswarms early relationship

            Peoples motivation for the war against BoB

            The Demise of Band of Brothers, as in its time frame as you’ve presented it.

            Thats one fucking paragraph. List you my disagreements? Like holy shit how much time should a person have to actually spend to correct a historical record on a FUCKING NEWS SITE?

            I can go paragraph for paragraph just point out the shit you made up, and probably end up missing a lot because theres just so fucking much.

            March 1, 2019 at 8:14 PM
          • J Moravia Grath

            I didn’t write the line about the formation of PL, so I’ll research that and see how it matches up to the information.

            The article says nothing about any “relationship” between PL and Goonswarm except that they fought together against BoB. Do you dispute that?

            No motivation for fighting BoB was discussed except that the Band of Developers scandal helped cement the bad will that existed.

            The demise of BoB was compressed due to time constraints – my goal for the history section was to tell the history of PL in three paragraphs (it ended up being eight) so I wasn’t going to spend an entire paragraph going through the finer points of BoB being disbanded in February, reformed as Kenzoku, and dying for good in June.

            So none of those things is in any way a “factual error.” You may have an issue with the way the information was compressed in the interest of a concise narrative, but that is not even CLOSE to the same thing as a factual error. A half-hour documentary on the Civil War is not going to touch the same level of detail as Ken Burns’ miniseries, but that doesn’t mean it’s “full of errors.”

            Remember, you’re the one who said it would take you thirteen ARTICLES to write a history of PL. It should be obvious even to you that an eight-paragraph history is going to make different choices about what to include and how it’s presented. If that’s not obvious to you, then you need to go learn a bit about history and how it’s told before claiming that other people are telling history wrong.

            March 1, 2019 at 9:51 PM
          • Grath J Moravia

            “The article says nothing about any “relationship” between PL and
            Goonswarm except that they fought together against BoB. Do you dispute
            that?”

            Thats not actually what it says at all:

            “Almost immediately they teamed up with Goonswarm to fight against Band of Brothers (BoB)”

            Your article here says that PL formed, hooked up with Goons, and started fighting BoB.

            Time compression is fine, but not when it alters the fact that PL has always shot Goons, one might even say you were some of their earliest targets.

            Nobody in PL at the time cared about the cheating, it was the way Kugu the player was treated by CCP that was PL’s entire reason for fighting, otherwise they’d have just as likely kept on doing what they were doing which was “shoot everybody”.

            Your compression of time would be fine if it didn’t attempt to change actual history. Your version is PL forms, hooks up with Goons, shoot bob, CCP cheats and we all move to Delve and mop up.

            Thats not accurate literally AT ALL.

            EDIT: Again, this is all in the first paragraph. Lol at the rest.

            March 1, 2019 at 9:58 PM
          • J Moravia Grath

            I didn’t realize I was going to have to teach history 101 here. You keep saying “that’s not accurate” while talking about something that is not a matter of factual accuracy at all but of presentation.

            If you had to go from “founding of PL” to “death of BoB” in a single paragraph, how many sentences would you have spent discussing PL’s targeting of Goons?

            If the article’s purpose had been a definitive history of PL, that would be one thing, but that’s not what the title of the article or the introductory paragraph say, is it? The history section is just to give someone who knows absolutely nothing the barest possible amount of information that they would need to make sense of what follows.

            It does that and nothing else, and never claimed to do anything else.

            March 1, 2019 at 10:06 PM
          • Grath J Moravia

            Sweet, if you were going to give somebody who didn’t know the barest possible amount of information, you chose to give them factually incorrect information and now you’re standing here trying to defend that by saying “well the articles not about that”.

            Your version pretty much is like “Heres the history of the world, there were dinosaurs, they ate nothing but grapes and pineapples, then man showed up, they were the best of friends, then the dinosaurs died. LETS TALK ABOUT WHAT THE DINO”S COULD HAVE DONE TO STICK IT OUT”.

            The entire premise that you’re basing your piece educating people on is a fabrication. Whats more, you’re saying you wrote an article on how to fix PL so that people who have no idea who they are or where the come from could somehow manage to fix PL?|

            I feel like you’re digging yourself a hole here.

            If people didn’t know, then why would they care how to fix a thing they didn’t know about? And if you’re trying to give somebody a cursory history of the groups why fabricate so much of what you’ve said up there? FOR EXAMPLE, nobody thought ill of PL for spying during tourneys because, and heres the important part – THAT KIND OF SHIT WAS ENCOURAGED and yet for some reason it randomly shows up in your article. Its not true, and nothing you say can make it true and i can categorically bury you in facts proving otherwise.

            Yet here you sit, changing history to give “a brief overview”.

            Next time you try and do a brief overview of something, try learning a bit about it from the people that were in it instead of just relying on 3rd party bullshit stories generated from your own group internally.

            March 2, 2019 at 2:30 AM
          • J Moravia Grath

            Grath, you said “nobody” thought ill of PL for spying during tourneys, and I’m sure there was at least one player in all of New Eden who thought ill of PL. Your post is a total fabrication. You’re changing history. You’re digging yourself a hole.

            Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? Do you accept that a true fact (spying was generally accepted) can be phrased in a way that comes off sounding wrong to a pedant, but does not disprove the truth of the fact?

            At any rate, we’ve reached *that* point in the discussion:
            Grath: “Here are four factual errors in your article.”
            J: “Actually, here’s a solid explanation of why three of those are not factual errors at all.”
            Grath: “Fabrication! Factually incorrect information! Changing history!”

            You haven’t demonstrated a single factual inaccuracy, only a few instances in which, if you had more time than three paragraphs, you would have written things differently. That’s valid. The great thing about history is that people tell the same facts in different ways and with different emphases – if that wasn’t true, we would only need one book about the Civil War, one book about World War II, and so on. Arrendis’ idea of “alliance history in their own words” was a very good one, as his ideas typically are. I’d like to hear your take on things.

            March 2, 2019 at 2:55 AM
          • Grath J Moravia

            I think factual means different things to us, you’ve got the kind of moral flexibility with facts that would make a hooker proud.

            If Kellyanne Conway ever loses her job with Trump I think you and your alternate facts got the position

            March 2, 2019 at 5:07 PM
          • Arrendis Grath

            Alright. Ok. Regardless of anything else?

            Damn, that was a good burn.

            March 5, 2019 at 5:41 AM
          • Thomas Low J Moravia

            Grath was probably there when PL was formed…. don’t argue with him…. you are wrong.

            March 3, 2019 at 9:52 PM
          • Monasucks Grath

            Bwahaha

            March 27, 2019 at 9:58 AM
          • :facepalm:

            March 1, 2019 at 8:08 PM
  • Bowzer

    ok.. so this is propaganda.. Period… But fuck PL.. a bunch of “elite pvp” douch bags. Die quietly bitches.

    March 1, 2019 at 3:53 AM
    • J Moravia Bowzer

      A discussion of how one of the Imperium’s most hated enemies could improve itself is Imperium propaganda?

      March 1, 2019 at 4:10 PM
      • Garreth Vlox J Moravia

        PL’s entire identity revolves around telling themselves they are the best there is. So anytime someone explains to them how to correct their mistakes they call it propaganda, because to call it anything else would mean PL admitting it made a series of bad calls that need to be corrected.

        March 3, 2019 at 2:17 AM
  • concerned whiteman

    PL were elite attitude towards pve and aint going to happen. Ever since joining legacy i have got into a super , getting alts trained into faxes getting ready. This would not have happened with NCPL as they hate krabbing and thus i had no incentive to fight for space that i had to rent under them

    March 1, 2019 at 8:57 PM
  • Xa1n

    You think mining is Delve is ‘galactic dominance’. Oh dear..

    March 3, 2019 at 11:30 AM