PAPI’s Final War Plans: News, Analysis, and Commentary

2021-04-29

Header art by Cryo Huren

Wow, what a weekend it has been.

PAPI member alliances Pandemic Horde (PH), Brave, and Test Alliance Please Ignore (TAPI) all held alliance meetings the weekend of April 24-25. I will summarize the key points, as there are over four hours of recordings involved. I do encourage you to listen to them, especially if you fear “spin.”

NEWS

Pandemic Horde Townhall

This has been very well covered by INN. The most important takeaway is that the big 1DQ battle, that everyone was expecting, is probably not going to happen. Gobbins, the leader of PH, also stated that there would be another PH Townhall prior to attacking 1DQ. To read some of the discussion of that strategy, you can find it on this reddit site.

Brave

This update was very similar to the PH Townhall. Dunk Dinkle focused on this current “phase” of the war being “the slow blade [that] will penetrate the shield” of the Imperium. As with the PH meeting, the expectations of a grand battle in 1DQ were dismissed. No such battle is likely to take place. Dinkle then noted that Brave is doing great and victory is all but assured. Dinkle did have an interesting segment regarding honesty, in which he made some statements about the “spin” coming from the Imperium. The obligatory reddit posts came in rapidly, showing, as always, truth is in the eye of the beholder.

TAPI

Of the three, the TAPI presentation was the least clear cut, perhaps because their two main leaders – Progodlegend (PGL) and Vily – don’t always agree. Progodlegend, military director of Legacy, did the bulk of the talking. PGL discussed at length the ways PAPI are winning and Goons are all panicking. He also said that the war was almost done, and that the light was at the end of the tunnel. Later, Vily said the war’s end could take another eight months. It was unclear if he was clarifying PGL’s previous statement about the war being almost done, or taking exception to it.

TAPI supercapital SRP is still an issue, with titans still not being replaced from the M2-XFE battle. But PGL said that those replacements were a low priority, as they were not going to be used in the near future. PGL also noted that more carriers could be used, and that all tools have to be available.

Looking at all the leaders’ positions, we can summarize the PAPI message: 1) Don’t look for an end to the war for some months; 2) PAPI’s main strategy will be to “test” the Imperium’s response times, and eventually wear them down psychologically, hoping Goons pilots stop logging in, where PAPI’s huge advantage in numbers will then be used to eventually win a foothold in the remaining contested systems; 3) Subcaps will be used more than in the past, so don’t look for the mammoth Armageddon-type battle that sets world records and makes international headlines.

Questions Worth Asking

How many phases are there in the PAPI plan?

I’ve lost count of the phases, especially if we count move-ops as a phase. Are these plans the final phase?

Why are PAPI only now planning how to attack 1DQ1-A?

1DQ was there ten months ago, and PAPI knew they had to take 1DQ to complete their agenda. If you are in PAPI, you must truly have to hope that these plans were established long ago rather than on-the-fly. But if that pre-planning actually took place, why, at the beginning of the war, did all the leaders expect the war to be over in 6-9 months? We’re well past that mark now, and all these leaders – Gobbins, Dinkle, and Vily – state that the war could go on for many more months.

Why have the Goon numbers not dropped by 30% and more?

We can see from the Gobbins’ statement above that the key to the 1DQ assault strategy will be to hope that Goons stop forming in large numbers.  I’ve never heard of such a war strategy, in games or real life, and it’s taking me a while to wrap my head around this one. 

If I understand this correctly, a win for PAPI in 1DQ will not depend on anything that PAPI does. It entirely and completely rests on what Goons do or not do. Silly me – I thought strategy had to do with what the aggressor did. It’s like a heist movie: all the thieves get together and plan to rob the Louve of all its masterpieces. One guy says to the leader: “What’s the plan, boss?” And the leader says, “Well, we just wait till it’s unguarded.”

You haven’t seen that film? Me either. To the members of PAPI, I ask: are you comfortable with that? Please explain that one in the comments you love to leave and I just love reading.

Why have Goons not run away, as PGL said they were doing back in his December SOTA?

Let me remind you of what PGL said. These are his words, quoted at some length, so you can’t accuse me of spin:

“Goons don’t really have that much left, so they’re looking for other things to do. It’s looking like they’re looking for the door. Any time your main lead FC is taking his SIG and is pulling away from the war and leading 30-man fleets, instead of harassing us or doing anything to stop us from burning shit down, you know you’re kinda burned out. And that’s basically what happened. Initiative has a . . . deployment [sound muffled] in Catch. When they did that move op we went and poked Fountain a little bit and instead of even attempting to defend Fountain, which is something they spent a lot of time retaking and building the infrastructure, they pinged their guys to move their ships into NPC stations and abandoned Fountain. So, they really do not want to be involved in this war anymore. They are looking to take the next step.”

I would like to point out that the dream always seems to come back round to Goons running away or ceasing to log in. I hope you won’t mind a little scripture, with modifications: As it was in the mind of PGL, so shall it be in the mind of Gobbins. (Book of Moomin: 4:13). Will we be looking back on Gobbins’ speech in five months with the same mystification we have about that PGL statement?

Why do the PH, Brave, and TAPI war timelines all seem to contradict each other?

Three major voices all doing a war update on the same weekend clearly suggests this event was planned in advance. Since that is clear, I can’t help but wonder why they aren’t on the same page. Will this final phase of the war last a couple months, or another year? And why would that vary so widely? I guess the obvious answer is because it clearly depends on when Goons stop logging in with massive numbers, and the various PAPI leaders have a different “feel” about when log-in nausea might properly begin. Vily, the former Goon, is the least optimistic, evidently, about when Goons will just stop logging in so that his dream of living in Delve unopposed may be fulfilled. Or perhaps he has other reasons for believing the war could go another year?

PAPI members may have additional questions to ask. Why does PH say they will not use caps, but TAPI says they will? That’s a major difference, my fellow players. Please account for it in your welcomed insightful comments.

TAPI leadership said they had the largest super cache in the game; yet four months later they have not SRP’d all their supers. How do you reconcile that contradiction? If they have the titans, why don’t they just give them to those who lost them? What am I missing, PAPI people?

Will we get answers for any of these questions? Perhaps they will be deflected, derided, or ignored as “Goon spin.” Labeling a question as “spin” does not answer the question, though it’s easier for sure.

Analysis

What has changed for the Imperium after the many PAPI meetings this weekend? The simple answer: nothing.

In the opening statement of World War Bee, The Mittani – leader of the Imperium – made it clear that the Imperium was vastly outnumbered and would be on the back foot. Here is the original statement from June of 2020. Please note that The Mittani concludes with “We will be outnumbered, we will lose titans, we will lose Keepstars, but no one can fight a war of annihilation quite like us – and at a fundamental level, no one enjoys it quite like we do.” There is no mention of goalposts being set. What would constitute a win, then? Survive the war of annihilation. That’s the goalpost, which has not changed.

Yes, sub-goals were created, such as trying to prevent PAPI from planting a Keepstar in Delve, and those subgoals subsequently failed, but the main goalpost has always been to avoid annihilation. PAPI failed on April 27 to destroy the armor timer of a jump bridge. Has PAPI therefore failed in their war goal? Of course not.

Adapting to changing circumstances is the hallmark of great leadership. When The Imperium sounded “The Horn of Goondor,” it was not a knee jerk reaction. It was a call to arms with a very clear objective; resist extermination by the blue donut. The Mittani made it very clear that by using the Horn of Goondor he was going “all in ” with the defense of 1DQ1-A.

Commentary: The Truthiness Challenge

A large part of the PAPI propaganda has focused on portraying everything that comes from the Imperium, and from INN specifically, as being fabricated. This is especially apparent in more recent communications from PAPI leadership. 

In creating the World War Bee Summary series, I took great care to label the sources I used, noting their strengths and weaknesses, in portraying what I perceive to be the truth. All sources, such as the ones above regarding PAPI statements, have been linked so that you can hear the words spoken by PAPI leadership.

Please note: I want you to listen to Gobbins, Dunk, PGL, and Vily. Hear them and ask yourselves questions. 

I have taken great care to make sure that when anyone, in the future, reads the INN reporting they will have a very fair account of World War Bee. I am only partly writing for you, the present-day reader. I’m writing for readers five years from now who look back on this event in EVE history and want to know what happened, and more importantly, why it happened. The “what” will be pretty obvious. The “why” is a more interesting question, by far, and does demand a more rigorous mind.

Regarding “truthiness,” as I already noted, that is in the eye of the beholder, but that does not mean the truth relies on pure opinion, based on nothing at all. Provide evidence – that’s what I have tried to do. I frequently point out what PAPI leaders have actually said. I then interpret it, which you are also free to do. Let’s look at a few examples: 

Remember that Vily asked the Imperium to take out PanFam first. Every utterance from Legacy, if not all of PAPI, must take that fact into consideration. Any war claim must account for the fact that Legacy wanted to team with Imperium to wipe out PanFam. PAPI commenters rarely address this, or when they do, they just note that perhaps Goons should have agreed to do that. All other casus belli are meaningless without taking this statement into account. Why are we having WWB?  It has nothing to do with Goons being this, that, or the other. Rather, it entirely depended upon Goons refusing to back Vily’s plan to attack PanFam. “Too big,” “causing stagnation,” etc.  Those are spins of convenience because Goons said “No.”

You just need to prove me wrong on this single point to make me change my mind.

I cannot speak for all of the Imperium, but speaking only for myself, this war has been amazing so far. Some call this “just a game,” but it is more than that for many. It is a hobby, a thing to be invested in with no expectation of return other than the enjoyment you get from it. The stories every member of the Imperium has so far of World War Bee are truly epic on the gaming scene. Unlikely ever to be repeated, at least on Tranquility.

When the Horn of Goondor sounded, I rushed back into the game. Prepared everything I would need for the defence of 1DQ and stocked blackops ships in NPC Delve. I was under no delusions concerning the Imperium’s prospects. I have always planned, since September 2020, to defend 1DQ and to slow PAPI progress everywhere else as much as possible. If 1DQ is lost, then I plan to fight from NPC Delve. Seven months have since passed since I came back and I still wait to defend 1DQ. Seven months more time to move anything I wanted to move, or unanchor anything I wanted to unanchor. Seven months to find new ways to make ISK in an unforgiving null economy. Anything I lose is what I choose to lose. Just like The Mittani, and so many other Goons, I am “all in” on this one.

Winning is not currently an option for me. Until PAPI members listen to what their leaders are saying and actually look at the map, they are beyond the reach of reason. This war will last as long as PAPI leadership can convince their members that Goons have to be destroyed.

However, as ironic as it may seem, to “not lose” is a simple task for me. All I need to do is avoid extermination – and I do that by logging in, looking at my alliance ticker, and shouting in local “:CONDI:”.

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Comments

  • Guilford Australis

    What exactly does PAPI leadership mean when they discuss the “end of the war?” For Legacy, that has to mean The Imperium disappears from EVE, otherwise they’re greatly screwed once PanFam stops carrying them around like a sack of potatoes.

    What about PanFam? Gobbins insisted – repeatedly and emphatically – that an apocalypse in 1DQ was one of his victory conditions. Now he and every other PAPI leader say that won’t happen. So what do they mean by the “end of the war?” PanFam shambles off back north, leaving a bumbling and incompetent TEST to get crushed in Delve, and a year from now everything is the same as it was before the war started?

    April 29, 2021 at 8:52 AM
    • William Doe Guilford Australis

      To answer the main question off your second paragraph – pretty much from the looks of it. Except will TEST attempt to rebuild the blue donut months later after seeing a bunch of angry bees all over their turf wreak havoc on them? I’m sure they’ll try but PanFam will probably just leave them hanging and to their fate.

      All it takes is for the Imperium to literally survive and the war to end. PanFam goes back north and while TEST takes the incoming shitstorm heading their way which may possibly cause the dissolution of various alliances of Legacy just to avoid the wrath of The Imperium. Vily and Piggles knows with 100% certainty they don’t stand a chance without help from PanFam.

      April 29, 2021 at 11:50 AM
      • Guilford Australis William Doe

        I essentially agree. I’d predict PanFam will leave a semi-permanent garrison in Delve (maybe a couple of SIGs) to try to farm Goons and help out TEST, but with the bulk of their pilots out of the theater, The Imperium will be able to do whatever it wants with impunity. (And that will consist primarily of mashing our boot-heels straight into TEST’s teeth at an incredibly high rate of speed).

        April 29, 2021 at 12:13 PM
        • Alaric Faelen Guilford Australis

          They better hope that we go for the obvious route of just farming TEST until the end of time. But the fact is that once PAPI’s giant blob of supers disperses, it’s not going to be reformed until alliances figure out scarcity. So GSF can pretty much pick any weak point in their donut and punch our way in.

          Imagine if we decided to squat on Brave instead and their members fought a boring hell war only to not be able to undock to go ratting without being dropped on while TEST gets cozy in their new Panfam owned kennel.

          April 29, 2021 at 4:26 PM
  • Mr Augur

    My personal opinion “Why Goons didn’t join Legacy to attack PanFam” is after glassing Tribute (which was in final stage before coming back to Delve) and sudden drifters invasion it was very clear that game was in bad condition as Nulsec Powers. There was to big difference between north and South. Goons didn’t plan to exterminate anyone (PanFam was avoiding most of the fights). They clean some Space with hope some smaller alliances will fill that space to grow. But PanFam insted of spending that time after drifters invasion to lick wounds and rebuild they decide revange Tribute and remove Death Co from the game. So will PanFam will be doing that with everyone who have different aproch to theirs vison and not obey to be renters uder PanFam influence time will tell. Sorry for my bad English.

    April 29, 2021 at 10:58 AM
    • Guilford Australis Mr Augur

      These are good points. The Imperium fought GOTG/DeadCo in 2018, but we had no intention to completely “exterminate” them. We fought for three months, rolled Co2’s space (which Asher had publicly stated was our goal) made peace, and went home. Even though our peace with GOTG was only officially for six months, we never attacked them again and even fought on their side against PanFam.

      But Gobbins was butthurt over the surrender and decided that as punishment for saving his coalition from Goonswarm, Sort Dragon needed to lose it at the hands of PanFam. So he killed it. Good job, Gobbins. Now no one gets to fight DeadCo anymore. *Slow Clap.*

      April 29, 2021 at 1:15 PM
      • Moomin Amatin Guilford Australis

        Meanwhile The Imperium were offering out free space to anyone who wanted it in Querious. I love that Goons are blamed for killing small alliances when we have seen Legacy kill loads of them this war, all of them allies.

        April 29, 2021 at 1:32 PM
        • Garreth Vlox Moomin Amatin

          Yeah it’s kind of hysterical how legacy said they were starting this war to “kill” an alliance and the only dead groups so far are all within their own coalition…

          April 30, 2021 at 6:05 AM
    • Elithiel en Gravonere Mr Augur

      I remember the very meeting we had where, we could of chased PanFam past Tribute. It was very much decided that we were happy with our four regions and didn’t need more space. So we handed that off to smaller neutrals instead and left a buffer zone between us and Panfam deliberately.

      May 4, 2021 at 3:15 AM
  • CK

    I’m curious how CCP and PA feel about the largest player association’s strategic plan is to have the second largest player association not play the game?

    April 29, 2021 at 12:31 PM
    • Garreth Vlox CK

      They’re to busy not understanding how their own game works as they make massively negative game changes to pay attention to something as unimportant as subscriber numbers.

      April 30, 2021 at 6:03 AM
  • Alaric Faelen

    Nothing has changed. PAPI is 100% reliant on blobbing to win any battle. The moment they lose any appreciable amount of supers either to combat or people just getting bored and going home, the entire war collapses.
    PAPI is in a much worse position than they want to admit. Their super fleet is essentially no longer a factor. They are afraid to use them now even with a massive numbers advantage. They certainly won’t use them in anything less than a slam dunk and knowing that is a trap Goons are just looking to spring means we can count them out for offensive use.
    Their only point now is to counter Goons dropping their supers for defense. Even then they better pray they actually get numbers when they rage ping for supers but given scarcity and the fact that these same people already got a super fleet held hostage for months probably means they won’t see that level of participation again if they did rage ping. With anything less than a slam dunk victory, their supers are staying docked.

    So now any grind thru Delve will be subcapitals against defenders willing to drop capitals all day. And it will only get worse as they continue to bleed members thru a campaign of intentional boredom– in a war that they’ve already dragged out for almost a year. A war with no light at the end of the tunnel just got re-routed thru a longer and darker tunnel.

    It would be one thing if they had executed a normal war of a couple months, big wins, lots of kills. But after a year of blobs, embarrassing losses, and shifting goalposts- now trying to sell your members on a subcapital grind for another however long but without even the epic set piece battle….

    April 29, 2021 at 2:11 PM
    • Novartis Alaric Faelen

      Agree with this. One thing that PAPI might haven’t think about is that sometimes, you have to think that your own line member as if they’re a mercenary. They’re not paid in isk or whatever other currency. They are paid in fun/hour. Some of the most hardcore, might be the true loyalist, where whatever the situation, no matter how boring it is would still stick to their leader, however nobody in their right mind(except Goons probably, they have bond even outside the game that the game itself can’t really break), would go play a game, that they don’t even have fun. Like, dude, people play game to have their own fun, not the be the subject of some other definition of fun! Getting your line-member to do the slow grind without any definite answer in when, and how, it’s just sooooo soooo dumb.

      P.S For most of the goons, you can’t get the same argument, since for most of them, this is their content, and you have cornered most of them. Remember, cornered animals will always fight fiercer than those that still have a visible exit option.

      April 29, 2021 at 2:40 PM
      • Alaric Faelen Novartis

        I think a lot of them genuinely drank that kool aid that Goons would actually stop playing the game if we lost a war.
        Anyone that is remotely connected to reality knows that this is just another Eve war like any other. All you can do is evict someone from their space. You cannot dismantle their organization, especially one as culturally cohesive as GSF. The loser skulks off to NPC null or FW low sec for a bit then gets back to the sov game.
        Except Goons are a galactic super power with a massive capital fleet- so it’s not like being hoboes.
        It took all of null to blue each other and blob GSF for them to even try to fight us. Once that blob disperses, which it will now that no one is willing to risk their supers- there will be little to stop Goons from just smashing their way back into taking whatever space it wants.

        April 29, 2021 at 4:20 PM
    • Dripple Alaric Faelen

      Why would Imperium whine about PAPI tactics then? We fight the war in way which will give us highest change of victory.
      If you can’t do anything about it and don’t have courage to take risks to push war to different direction then. “Shush”
      Don’t hate the player, hate the game”

      April 30, 2021 at 2:07 AM
      • Sirhan Blixt Dripple

        Someone who won’t take a 1:1 fight wants to lecture someone else on how cowardly they are for not fighting on the wrong side of 3:1 odds? Maybe you should sit this one out.

        April 30, 2021 at 4:29 AM
        • Dripple Sirhan Blixt

          Well I personally love good subcap slug fests, but I have played long enough to come to terms with reality that “gudfights” just aren’t part of real wars.

          Every alliance Allways focus on the end goal which is the winning the war.

          April 30, 2021 at 8:07 AM
      • Garreth Vlox Dripple

        “Why would Imperium whine about PAPI tactics then?”

        Because that’s all papi does, I mean have you seen your reddit presence?

        April 30, 2021 at 6:02 AM
        • Dripple Garreth Vlox

          Yes I do and most of the threads about “x doesnt do, this and that” actually starts with”PISSPI, cowardly “this and that”, “they never come to 1DQ”

          April 30, 2021 at 7:48 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Dripple

            ” “they never come to 1DQ””

            Which is true, except for that one time you did and we bitch slapped you back into the t5zi so hard your leaders outright announced they weren’t going to even bother trying that again….

            May 1, 2021 at 4:39 AM
  • Seir Luciel

    “We can see from the Gobbins’ statement above that the key to the 1DQ assault strategy will be to hope that Goons stop forming in large numbers. . . . To the members of PAPI, I ask: are you comfortable with that? Please explain that one in the comments you love to leave and I just love reading.“

    Yes, I am comfortable with this strategy because it is one that has been working. https://www.theroadsofar.space/#/

    As Gobbins said, there have been a number of times during the war that there have been major choke points where both PAPI and goon numbers slammed together; initially Goon numbers were very high but over time their form-ups would dwindle and that’s when the targets would start to fall.

    One of the advantages of having more people is a higher fleet count. But another advantage is more people can sit out fleets than Goon pilots and still be competitive. Think of each pilot not only as an F1 command but also as a block of time, 1-3 hours each day spent on the game. When added up, PAPI has much more time-as-weapon/currency in their respective army for fleets, krabbing, or simply taking a break for a night. Goons don’t have the same luxury time.

    I fully expect Goons to defend their area well. Its going to make for some awesome fights; I still have my fingers crossed for a big Titan fight which Gobbins said are unpredictable and could still always happen. However, long term, I think Goon fleets will dwindle after many pings. Their emotional justification will be that Goons planned to lose everything anyway, made their point by forming up and “making PAPI’s wallets bleed” earlier on, and now are looking toward the future. Maybe looking towards pirate space or lowsec after all the unused Titans (if they aren’t used) that got asset safety-ed there when the last keepstar falls.

    Or maybe Goons will hold and I’m wrong to think Goon numbers would dwindle like they have before. But I keep hearing Goons say how boring the war is: that sounds to me like someone who might not show up to a fleet after a while. Or at least, it seems to me a hint of where Goon morale is which frankly can only aid PAPI’s prospects. Maybe it gets less boring now? Maybe more fights over structures behind 1DQ? I’ve heard my side’s plan but I don’t know what the Imperium plan is; other than survive annihilation. Maybe Goons are just waiting for 1DQ, which might be the right thing to do, but yeah that would be boring. I’d be taunting for others to come to where I’m hunkered down, waiting, as well.

    April 29, 2021 at 3:16 PM
    • Alaric Faelen Seir Luciel

      You are basically wagering that Goons will quit due to hopelessness faster than PAPI will quit due to boredom and getting nothing out of this war.

      First off- that is a miserable commentary on the state of the game.

      Second- the motivation is far stronger for the defender than the attacker, especially an attacker that is basically long since gotten any gain from this war.

      PAPI’s biggest mistake was cowardice from the outset. Wars in a video game go for a couple months then people go back to enjoying the rest of the game, especially when those wars are defined by soul crushing TiDi or undefended structure bashes. But PAPI’s care bear level risk aversion dragged this war out so long and made it so dull that it’s become a race to who quits first.
      If PAPI had used their 3 to 1 blob and actually fought a fun war they could now go to their people and ask them to stick it out and forgive the lack of cool fights. But they didn’t want to risk their precious KB and now they can’t afford to risk their supers at any rate.
      So it’s now a matter of ‘you are stuck with this’ just as much as it is for Goons who have no choice but to fight to survive.
      There is no end point. If we leave sov Delve it will be by choice to preserve a galactic super power level capital fleet. It will be to where ever we want to go because once their super blob dissolves back home, PAPI will not reform it any time soon. We can go after TEST for revenge, but doesn’t have to be. There will be no 3 to 1 super advantage going forward.

      April 29, 2021 at 4:01 PM
      • Seir Luciel Alaric Faelen

        “You are basically wagering that Goons will quit due to hopelessness faster than PAPI will quit due to boredom and getting nothing out of this war.”

        I think it is less of a wager than a calculation. Like I said, this isn’t theorizing or speculating: at this point it is recent history. We’ve gotten this far with this strategy and bottom line it’s working. But don’t misunderstand me; unlike what other commenters are reading into my statements, I’m not wanting to Goons to quit the game I want them to lose the war (for me that’s 1DQ. Someone else might have a different take). Dwindling fleet numbers help, obviously, effect that defeat.

        “Second- the motivation is far stronger for the defender than the attacker, especially an attacker that is basically long since gotten any gain from this war.”

        Why? There isn’t any magic reason defenders are more motivated than attackers. Motivation is created by the context of who is fighting, why, and what has taken place. If you want to say Goons are more motivated than PAPI, fine. For spite, or hatred of Vily, or whatever I might buy. But not because they are defenders.

        “But PAPI’s care bear level risk aversion dragged this war out so long and made it so dull that it’s become a race to who quits first.”

        First, speak for yourself. When I listen to PAPI players boredom isn’t the theme of conversation. Its been a marathon but it has been easy to mark progress along the way; we’ve had the benefit of always feeling we are a step closer. We’ve watched space change around us as we’ve moved through fountain and delve. Excitement had been on the rise and I would say it is pretty high right now. Its only going to go up, reaching an apex right before 1DQ.

        Second, you may say what you like about PAPI strategy but it works and it is continuing to work.

        April 29, 2021 at 7:51 PM
        • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

          You want to “win” the war when as far as any Imperium member is concerned you want to exterminate us. That was the original “win” condition touted. Stop people from playing the game. Now perhaps it is just The Mittani they are refering to or perhaps it is all Goons. That may vary for different folk in PAPI but I know for certain that there are many who would love to see all Goons stop playing. That is what they fight for and the effort you are supporting. This is all fine by the way as Eve is a sandbox game. The funny thing is that you really do think you are the “good guys” in this one. Meanwhile the rental empire grows.

          April 29, 2021 at 9:59 PM
        • “Excitement had been on the rise and I would say it is pretty high right now. Its only going to go up, reaching an apex right before 1DQ.”

          Right before 1DQ, you say? Wait, when was it exactly that the T5Z Keepstar went up? Was that even this year? Haven’t we been “right before 1DQ” for months now? And how is your leadership’s begrudging admission that a big ticket fight is not in the cards going to help improve PAPI members’ motivation? Weren’t they there for the “Feedstar” phase of this operation? I’m sure they recall the being on the turkeyshoot-side of the hellscape of endless subcap losses that characterizes the supercap-free Keepstar push. And heck, those Keepstars weren’t even fitted yet. Are you really anticipating PAPI members having the stamina for that kind of bloodbath? If I remember right, enthusiasm quickly waned when you were on the killboard-padding side of that equation: good luck getting people to commit to those repeated meatgrinder ops against armed Keepstars while their zKill stats get holocausted and they can’t afford to replace their ships.

          April 29, 2021 at 10:36 PM
          • Dripple Ganthrithor

            It’s been clear, that Imperium has refused even to participate in this war unless it was fought in 1DQ constellation, so morale is getting high on PAPI side, because we have checked the necessary boxes , finished the grind and have arrived to the hole where goons have been cowardly hiding.
            Either we are going to witness PAPI flag waiving in 1DQ or we are going to finally have hundreds amazing subcap slug fests like today, because from this point on goons have no other option but to fight.

            All the bull***** and crying about “you don’t fight like we wanted, “sniff” “sniff” cynojammers, we are outnumbered, “sniff” Fraternity botters “sniff” is pointless, it’s fight or die. Moment you stop fighting it’s over, no more back pedalling, holes to flee, you are back against the wall.

            I will rejoice in both cases, either we get dope fights or victory.

            April 30, 2021 at 2:28 AM
          • Deni'z von Meanace Dripple

            You’ve scaeed tonlog in back in M2, that’s enough to understand on what conditions PAPI prefer to fight.

            April 30, 2021 at 3:44 AM
          • I can’t say if it was cowardice or tactical choice, it was definitely a mistake, there is no denying that.
            Maybe leadership calculated, that only thing to achieve after keepstar was reinforced was to exchange blows in disadvantageous position and it was wiser to reserve energy for the next timer.
            However being participant of that fight, I was glad we got orders not to login, I was absolutely exhausted after work + TIDI fest.

            April 30, 2021 at 2:18 PM
          • Deni'z von Meanace Dripple

            So many excuses and reasons not to. But this is what you are blaming goons for – they are not fighting you. So there was a perfect conditions to fight, which you guys prefer to retreat.

            April 30, 2021 at 8:52 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            Weird, as according to Gobbins PAPI members should prepare themselves for “dissappointment”.

            April 30, 2021 at 5:10 AM
          • Dripple Moomin Amatin

            He said I will be”disappointed” with what exactly?
            I will be disappointed that there won’t be lot of subcap fights?
            He said that we will disappointed because we can’t win the war?

            Your “selective” reading is…. let’s say unique.

            April 30, 2021 at 8:20 AM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            “Selective reading”? You can hear the words from Gobbins very own mouth. Have you actually listened to the recording?

            April 30, 2021 at 10:17 AM
          • Dripple Moomin Amatin

            Here you go, again dodging the question I presented.

            “I will be disappointed that there won’t be lot of subcap fights?
            He said that we will disappointed because we can’t win the war?”
            which is it im gonna be disappointed with?

            What I heard and how I interpreted when he said “you will be disappointed”, that there wont be huge M2 like Supers fight or 13k people crammed into same system.

            NOBODY absolutely NOBODY (maybe first timers, but after 1-2 its just boring and painful) enjoy those kind of fights.
            Reason why people wish for big supers fights, is not because they enjoy participating on them, but this game has too many supers and its struggling the meta.
            If there were a big red button which says “will detonate every super 30s after they are undocked, I would smash it down instantly.

            Death to all supers.

            April 30, 2021 at 2:07 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            Look, put quotation marks around stuff all you want. The answers are in the various PAPI meetings. Gobbins opens with what I am on about, spin it how you like.

            And you say death to supers while doing your very best to make sure you do not put them at risk. Before you start, X-47 had the Imperium attack a defended KS with their super fleet while outnumbered.

            April 30, 2021 at 6:35 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Dripple

            He said I will be”disappointed” with what exactly?”

            With the complete pile of shit vily and protool fed you?

            May 5, 2021 at 6:34 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Dripple

            ” that Imperium has refused even to participate in this war unless it was fought in 1DQ constellation,” Yeah, that’s why it took papi almost a year to get to 1dq1, because we didn’t fight anywhere else… Do you idiots even think before you try to propaganda post?

            April 30, 2021 at 6:14 AM
          • Dripple Garreth Vlox

            In which point did you actually fought or tried to defend your keepstars beside M2 and When PAPI was anchoring first keepstars into Delve and you suicided assets 3×4 worth of the objective?
            How many keepstars died with a whimper when they were uncontested? About 90% of them?

            April 30, 2021 at 2:13 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            You deflecting here does not make you look right you know. I know it is all you have to defend the weak PAPI narrative. But that is what happens when leadership go about the place making stuff up. Why you can even witness it in this very article, which was created especially to help PAPI members, where you can hear the “differences” in what their leaders are saying.

            April 30, 2021 at 4:03 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Dripple

            “How many keepstars died with a whimper when they were uncontested?”

            Because you made sure they were uncontested. You cyno jammed the system bubbled the gates and prestaged your supers and titans so you could AVOID the fight. You should probably stop whining about how we didn’t fight you after you went to so much trouble to prevent the fight you didn’t get….

            May 1, 2021 at 4:36 AM
          • Then he complains about “Goons complaining that PAPI don’t fight the way they want them to.”

            Ahhhhhhhhhhh stop smoking so much spod, guy.

            May 1, 2021 at 5:36 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Ganthrithor

            “Ahhhhhhhhhhh stop smoking so much spod, guy.”

            He’s just an angry reddit poster who came here to try and continue the spin cycle that hasn’t done so well on reddit.

            May 2, 2021 at 7:32 PM
          • I mean there’s a third possibility where you lose a bunch of subcap fights and have to do the walk of shame back to idk somewhere else I guess since your old holdings have been torched, but I guess we’ll see.

            May 1, 2021 at 5:33 AM
        • Aaron Kitchell Seir Luciel

          I think this is a fair assessment. And I can see the slow grind working, to a point, but it all boils down to a fight over a single Keepstar. In this case, the defenders have a clear advantage, and no one in the Imperium is sitting that one out.

          April 30, 2021 at 1:53 AM
          • Alaric Faelen Aaron Kitchell

            Calling wins over largely undefended space and structures, and getting your super fleet held hostage when a big fight did happen is hardly what I would call ‘working’ as a strategy. It’s doing anything to avoid the actual fight of assaulting 1DQ and hoping no one notices. It’s quietly sending your supers home because even 3 to 1 odds isn’t enough of a blob for PAPI to win a fight. That is really going to be the legacy of PAPI regardless of how the war ends. A year or more of grind, an entire super fleet held hostage, then sent home in shame against a vastly smaller foe. Win via weaponized boredom and praying Goons get bored faster than your own side.

            My heroes…….

            But in the end it still is up to defining ‘victory’ so it fits your personal needs. As I said- even if Goons leave for NPC space, it will be at their own choosing and with their supercapital fleet intact, with nothing to do but drop on anything that undocks in Delve. Call that victory if it makes you feel better. The moment the super blob disperses, it’s all over but the crying. Whether Goons still have sov or live next door in jump range NPC space- that blob is the only source of victory PAPI had, and it’s going away. So evicting Goons just became an even longer tunnel with no end in sight, and at best will end with Goons living in next door padding their KB with TEST.

            April 30, 2021 at 4:36 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Aaron Kitchell

            “single Keepstar”

            lol, there’s more than 1 keepstar on that grid.

            April 30, 2021 at 6:15 AM
        • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

          “I’m not wanting to Goons to quit the game I want them to lose the war ”

          In order for that to happen goons have to quit the game…. or are you going to try and explain how vily didn’t mean what he said multiple times again?

          April 30, 2021 at 6:13 AM
    • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

      So you just hope Goons stop logging in? That is good for the game right? Your entire strategy is to bore people so that they stop playing. I love this war as it really is showing people’s true colours.

      April 29, 2021 at 4:02 PM
      • Seir Luciel Moomin Amatin

        It is a time honored war strategy, invoked about as long as the game has been around and used by Goons many times. I agree it kinda sucks, especially when it’s being done to you, but it isn’t like this is new buddy. This is EVE.

        April 29, 2021 at 7:56 PM
        • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

          It has? When? I mean we are fine to blob. We are fine to fight without super cover. We are fine to fight outnumbered. All of that has been shown more than once. CCP is even raising monuments as evidence to our heroic efforts.

          Now if you mean “hell dunk or blue balls” then that is a Vily creation. He took that with him to TAPI 6 years ago, just before The Casino War started. The Imperium then spent years trying to get rid of the same mentality you now employ.

          Please check the history a bit more than from just a year or so ago. Also it may behoove you to revisit some of the things said to PAPI almost a year ago. If what was being said then matches up with the reality of now then I would be most interested in hearing it.

          April 29, 2021 at 9:51 PM
          • Dripple Moomin Amatin

            Hold up!! You mean goons haven’t used “boredom” as an weapon? What have you been doing last 6 months of the war?
            After few first months all you have done is avoid fights and hope that PAPI gets bored/tired to structure grind.

            April 30, 2021 at 8:14 AM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            No we have not. Boredom is the PAPI strategy. This whole article was as a result of the many PAPI meetings this weekend. The theme of the meetings was “slow gind as we have been doing so far”. Any boredom in World War Bee is the result of PAPI. PAPI had a choice to either shoot structures or shoot ships. They went for structures.

            April 30, 2021 at 10:12 AM
          • Dripple Moomin Amatin

            There is equal argument to be made “Why haven’t Imperium hopped into ships and defended any of the structure timers”
            You could literally just kept fighting and when you ran out of ISK, press the “magic money” button and be all settled.
            You decided out of laziness not to defend and “shoot ships”?

            April 30, 2021 at 1:55 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            Again a resounding “no” for that one. PAPI loved “feedstars” and then stopped. Now why was that? Was it because Goon also loved “feedstars”? I think so. Additionally PAPI has made a point of forming three fleets to our one and we still have been fighting.

            So where do we go from here? As Zkill supports what I am saying as you can see that yet again (at time of writing) it is the Goons top of the alliances again. And 7 out of 10 corporations are Goons also. You see the Goons are in a target rich environment so finding things to shoot is way easier than being part of a blob. You should try it some time.

            April 30, 2021 at 3:58 PM
          • Carvj94 Dripple

            If the Imperium has been avoiding fights for the better part of a year then why hasn’t PAPI taken Delve yet? You think it would actually take 9 months to destroy all the structures that the Imperium had in Delve?

            May 1, 2021 at 3:58 AM
        • Malcanis Seir Luciel

          When was the most recent example you can cite?

          May 1, 2021 at 2:32 PM
          • Seir Luciel Malcanis

            Not the most recent, but here is a passage I found in two minutes from Groen’s Empires of EVE:

            “Phoenix Alliance began to fight smarter. It had no interest in meeting its opponents on the battlefield in fair combat. Pheonix Alliance saw its enemies as invaders, and its pilots weren’t going to give them the fights they craved. Phoenix Alliance knew that boredom and frustration were its strongest weapons. When the Norther Coalition of Allies showed up to fight, Phoenix Alliance would disperse and hide. Its enemies would sneer at them on communications channels, but that only reinforced that Phoenix Alliance’s strategy was working.”

            Like I said, what is happening now isn’t new at all; there are many parallels in EVE history. So to answer your question Moomin (“It has?”), yeah. It has.

            May 2, 2021 at 10:50 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

            You said “used by Goons many times”.

            I asked when that was and you come back with this? Are you kidding me? You know damned well that I was asking you about when Goons did the thing you said they did and you come back with another group altogether?

            Then you answer my question as a response to someone else and address it to me. Classy? I think not. If you actually had a point you would not have left it so long and then try and sneak it under the radar. At least this is what this looks like now.

            So to summarise.

            Someone said it was PAPIs aim to stop Goons from logging in.
            You then say “used by goons many times”.
            When asked when this was you come back and pretend to have found the answer and present it as a fact. The answer you present has nothing to do with the original statement or question. You also cite an Eve authority to bolster an argument you just pulled out of thin air as your initial one was a work of fiction.

            With how you close your remark I will say that I am not angry, but I am disappointed.

            May 3, 2021 at 6:08 PM
          • Seir Luciel Moomin Amatin

            A guy asked for a source to back up my statement; that’s reasonable. So I gave him one.

            To be technical, Moomin, your “It has?” left vague what “it” was supposed to refer to. Perhaps I misunderstood you, but I thought you were questioning my point that boredom and frustration as a strategy had been used in EVE a long time, by many groups. That it has is a fact, and was all I was saying. That was my point.

            I didn’t really think this was all that controversial an observation. I’m pretty sure you will grant me this.

            My question, and the only thing that has to do with Goons, is whether Goons have always condemned this kind of strategy, throughout EVE’s history, or if this is a recent development. You’ve been around EVE longer than I have, Moomin. You also know Goon history more intimately than me, though I suspect you are likely to interpret it differently than me.

            My question: how have goons viewed using boredom/frustration as a weapon historically? I don’t have to tell you that many people see the current Goon condemnation of PAPI strategy as temporally convenient.

            May 3, 2021 at 8:17 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

            “So you just hope Goons stop logging in? That is good for the game right? Your entire strategy is to bore people so that they stop playing. I love this war as it really is showing people’s true colours.”

            This is what I said. Never really got an answer though. Just deflection about how Goons did it first and did it loads. When asked for examples none were presented. Now the onus is on me to prove that all goons since time began have condemned such things.

            So here we are. I am none the wiser as to what your position is aside from you still choose to fight for PAPI and all it stands for. Have you looked at the map? Did you listen to your leaders? Were you disappointed?

            May 3, 2021 at 9:27 PM
          • Seir Luciel Moomin Amatin

            Many, including you, have told me Goons aren’t going anywhere. I agree. Therefore, I’m not particularly worried about Goons not logging in anymore and quitting. It seems you are trying to get me to admit I am doing something you simultaneously say is impossible to do.

            The extermination thing, at least interpreted as making Goons quit playing: Vily said that and he later walked it back. But I’m not Vily’s keeper. That’s not my war aim, not my win condition.

            There’s a lot of people fighting against goons right now and they all have their own reason for doing it and their own expectations for what this war’s going to accomplish. Vily’s got his, Gobbins has his, any low ranking PAPI soldier has theirs, and I have mine.

            May 3, 2021 at 11:27 PM
      • Crush Project Moomin Amatin

        its been working for goon for over a decade. Goons dont win battles, but when you have thousands of people camping gates every day for months people eventually just give up and leave. how you can try and play the victim now is ultra rich. and we’ll see how long your blob camps the same gate day in day out when most of those members only joined in the first place to get on the blue easy win train. and true colors? dont think its a secret that people hate goon for the things they do every single day.

        April 29, 2021 at 9:08 PM
        • Moomin Amatin Crush Project

          What on earth are you on about? If you are fine with wanting to stop people from playing the game then just say so. Why try to dress this up as “Goons did it first” when the guy in Goons who did it is the same guy in PAPI doing it now? Do you have no idea who Vily is?

          April 29, 2021 at 10:03 PM
          • Menaiya Moomin Amatin

            Actually Moomin, even I am not sure who he is. Just a mouthpiece that showed up one day with a great deal of anger to goons.

            April 30, 2021 at 3:32 AM
          • Moomin Amatin Menaiya

            Well let me give you the super short version. Vily was a Goon for 5 years and was “Sky Marshall” of the FC Team. It was Vily who developed the “Hell dunk or blue balls” ethos that is always presented as a Goon thing. Vily left The Imperium as he wanted a new challenge outside of “the blob”. He found one in TAPI. Now “Hell dunk or blue balls” can be seen in another blob, have a guess as to who is a leader of that? 😉

            April 30, 2021 at 4:55 AM
          • Crush Project Moomin Amatin

            my point was that its been standard operating procedure for goon for a long long time. i dont know the fc, but ive seen his work first hand, but if it is a former goon commander now on the other side that would seem kinda like poetic justice and burying you guys with the same shovel you built your empire with.

            April 30, 2021 at 6:00 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Crush Project

            It was I will agree, while Vily was with us it was all he pushed for. Then Vily went and a different ethos was developed in The Imperium. This ethos has allowed us to hold off the largest blue donut ever formed while outnumber 50k vs 150k. Impressive huh? Not like those other coalitions that have just run in the past rather than fight right?

            April 30, 2021 at 6:38 PM
          • Elithiel en Gravonere Crush Project

            So let me get this right. You lambasted us for something, the other side’s leadership (who are ex-goons) did in the past. Thus, proving that we are innocent. We actually did have a major cultural revolution after moving to Delve during the Casino war. We essentially kicked out the toxic players from our organisation. The purge of toxic players has continued right up to this present day (even during the war). You will see this in the last few years of behaviour. Instead of going all out on PanFam, we stopped short after the tribute war. The reason was, we felt that the good of the game meant not wiping out the other side, even though we technically could have done so.

            We did the same when Legacy’s Vily (that same ex-Goon who we considered toxic) approached us to wipe out Pandemic Horde and his pets. We actually said no. Pandemic Horde deserve to live, because we envision a multi-polar worldview. We need competing powers in Eve, not a blue donut. I know because I was there in the very meeting we had this discussion internally during the Tribute war. Extermination of the other side, has never been on the cards because we saw that as bad for the game overall.

            I get that we had a bad reputation in the past during the CFC days and before that. What I don’t get is, why so much hate post moving to Delve? Jealousy seems to be the main motivator here. So I ask again, who really are the bad guys here?

            May 4, 2021 at 3:05 AM
          • Crush Project Elithiel en Gravonere

            ‘thus proving we are innocent?’ hmmm. and you guys know what monopoly is like because you had one before and with pandemic horde being such a small threat compared to a faction that has it all that would have turned a lot of folks against you. and dont over think this too much, this distrust still comes from your cfc days and might always. the tiger has a hard time changing their spots.

            May 4, 2021 at 6:11 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Crush Project

            “with pandemic horde being such a small threat”

            LOL, pandemic horde is the ONLY reason this war lasted more than a month, take their numbers away and this war ends over night. How clueless can you be?

            May 5, 2021 at 6:32 AM
          • Moomin Amatin Garreth Vlox

            PH also seem to forget that they were very instrumental in kicking The Imperium out of Deklein during The Casino War. Even better it was PH that put the final nail in the coffin of their former valued allies GotG. Even better still is that they blame The Imperium for killing GotG even though it was PH and the real reason is that they got their feelings hurt when they ran from Tribute.

            So then they band up into the largest blue donut again and try to kick The Imperium out of null, while claiming to be the good guys, while building a rental empire.

            May 5, 2021 at 10:26 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Crush Project

            “i dont know the fc”

            Don’t play dumb, acting like you don’t know it’s vily is insulting to the intelligence of every single person involved.

            May 5, 2021 at 6:30 AM
          • Crush Project Moomin Amatin

            oh ‘stop people from playing the game’ without playing the game is another goon tactic man, not the other way around. im just calling you out on your rhetoric.

            April 30, 2021 at 6:03 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Crush Project

            That is Darius you are on about. Well known Pandemic Legion member since The Casino War. Do you see a pattern forming here?

            April 30, 2021 at 6:37 PM
        • Garreth Vlox Crush Project

          “most of those members only joined in the first place to get on the blue easy win train.”

          I love how you papi idiots all assume we joined goons for the same reason you joined papi.

          April 30, 2021 at 6:11 AM
    • Gray Doc Seir Luciel

      Your reply is divided upon itself. You suggest you are content with Gobbins’ pronouncement of win-by-hoping-Goons-don’t-log-in, but you also say you want the big Titan fight. You “have your fingers” crossed. Why? If the former is a good strategy, why cross your fingers hoping for a big fight? Because you know, in your heart, that the strategy is boring certainly, relying on passively waiting and hoping the other side stops showing up. And it’s disingenous to say you don’t know Imperium’s plan: you virtually quote it after your semi-colon, showing you know exactly what the plan is. And then you critique that plan as “boring” when you’ve just supported the most boring PAPI plan ever conceived in the history of EVE. Whole sentences will be written about the great “Battle of Boredom.” But no articles or book chapters–what’s there to say? But kudos anyway for being the only PAPI player so far to at least attempt to answer this question.

      April 29, 2021 at 4:49 PM
      • Mr Augur Gray Doc

        Boredom, cowardnes, easy kills is and always was a way of how PanFam was fighting and living it’s they nature. Since kicking Goons from the north or even longer and there you can find pleanty of example in EVE history to support that. I’m not saying they didn’t had moments but even those moments ware probably carefuly calculated or happen accidently. Even looking at regions where they living without NPC space should give some clu what kind of people they are. Funny thing is that Goon or Init while living in mostly 2 region Delve and Fountain with NPC Space manage to be the welthiest Null Power in around 5 years under constant presure from roaming groups, dreadbombs, constant CCP nerfs to Rorqs even then they had to anounce those bloody filament and nerf to super becouse no one else could achieve something similar to goon organization. And then goon anounce they will try their own renting system in Period Basis. I thing this was also one of reasons for this War because that could pull out some players out from PanFam Legacy Space.

        April 29, 2021 at 6:46 PM
      • Seir Luciel Gray Doc

        I’m not bored. But I got into the game hearing about B-r5rb. Now there’s a shot at a Titan battle to end all Titan battles: I’m only human.

        April 29, 2021 at 8:05 PM
        • Guilford Australis Seir Luciel

          Seir: Your alliance leader specifically said the kind of battle you describe won’t happen unless it’s forced upon him against his wish not to use supercapitals against 1DQ. So it appears M2- will remain your side’s most significant titan battle, and I think we can agree that is a checkered accomplishment for PAPI.

          April 29, 2021 at 8:39 PM
          • Seir Luciel Guilford Australis

            Gobbins said: “Strategically speaking, I don’t see it, but the reality of the war is that a Super fight can happen – spark out of anywhere – unpredictably.”

            Ultimately, we just don’t know yet what the most significant Titan battle of the war will be. Start placing your bets, I guess.

            April 29, 2021 at 9:18 PM
          • Guilford Australis Seir Luciel

            Seir: You are standing on semantics. Gobbins said he does not plan to use supercapitals against 1DQ. He also said it will only happen if it is forced on him against his will, exactly as I stated. The SOTA recap a couple articles down on INN quotes him extensively.

            April 29, 2021 at 9:44 PM
          • Seir Luciel Guilford Australis

            Guilford, in the very next article you are talking about all the reasons PAPI would’t be able to do 1DQ without supers:

            “ How exactly does PGL imagine PAPI will destroy five Keepstars without supers in a system where The Imperium WILL be using supers and already has them pre-staged? Ten percent TIDI is guaranteed, which is a massive benefit to the defenders since the Keepstars will repair in real time while combat is slowed by 90%. The Imperium will have titan blobs on grid mopping up every subcap, dread, and carrier fleet PAPI lemmings into the system.”

            So maybe I’m just confused, but it sounds like you are hinting you think PAPI will have to use supers after all. Which is it? Supers or no supers?

            I’m getting drilled by Garreth for being a fence-rider but it’s feeling goons don’t know whether to expect supers or not either.

            May 1, 2021 at 3:39 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

            ” I don’t see it, but the reality of the war is that a Super fight can happen – spark out of anywhere – unpredictably.””

            That’s literally gobbins saying “I won’t pick the fight, but my best attempts at ducking that fight might not save us from m2- round 3″…. you can’t be this dense, it has to be an act.

            April 30, 2021 at 6:10 AM
        • Gray Doc Seir Luciel

          For which I applaud you. You want what everyone in EVE should want–a record-breaking bust up of a battle about which epics can be written. Instead, this strategy will deserve one sentence: “And then PAPI did 215 ‘feints’ in 1DQ, hoping Goons would stop logging in so that they could ‘sack’ an undefended city and write epics to themselves on reddit. In other news, CCP has once again . . .”

          April 29, 2021 at 9:47 PM
        • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

          ” Now there’s a shot at a Titan battle to end all Titan battles: I’m only human.”

          We had that again at m2-, then you guys tucked tail and ran away for 2 months because you depended on a pair of egotistical dipshits to come up with your strategy…

          April 30, 2021 at 6:09 AM
      • Garreth Vlox Gray Doc

        “Your reply is divided upon itself. You suggest you are content with Gobbins’ pronouncement of win-by-hoping-Goons-don’t-log-in, but you also say you want the big Titan fight. You “have your fingers” crossed. Why?”

        Go back over the last few months and read Seir’s pieces and his responses to the comment. He has no fucking idea what he wants to happen, or how to get there, or whether they will even “win”. He’s a fence sitter who wants to get credit for “calling it” without ever actually taking an actual stance on how things will work out. He’s basically vily, without the whole “leading an alliance to it’s death” shtick.

        April 30, 2021 at 6:07 AM
        • Gray Doc Garreth Vlox

          I always read Seir’s pieces and find them thoughtful and well presented. He’s the one PAPI voice that is willing to actually try and make reasoned arguments, while most content themselves with ad hominem attacks or just GRRRR GON type foolishness. Yeah, I think he’s wrong some of the time, including in his comment on this piece. So, I point out the errors of logic or presentation, but I admire both his thinking and his pluck.

          April 30, 2021 at 10:39 AM
          • Moomin Amatin Gray Doc

            Agreed in the main although the “North Korea” thing was possibly a bridge too far. 😉

            April 30, 2021 at 3:51 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Gray Doc

            Not his pieces, those are relatively well thought out. Look at his responses to people comments in the comments threads. He’s a professional fence rider.

            May 1, 2021 at 4:37 AM
          • Seir Luciel Garreth Vlox

            The foolish make false predictions. The wise make correct ones. The wiser still make no predictions, but take whatever comes with equanimity.

            Its one thing to never fully commit to an opinion on things. It is another to not make prophecies about the future. As I see it, INN is a culture of prophets and prophecies. Maybe I just lost my crystal ball but I’m pretty forthright about my thoughts on things in the present, more than my thoughts on the future; there’s a difference between fence riders and non-prophets.

            May 1, 2021 at 2:57 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

            “no I’m not going to ‘commit’ to saying what I think will happen is a surety. That’s because for much of this stuff, while things are still developing, I still have faith I could always be wrong.”

            AKA, fuck no we aren’t taking 1dq1, gobbins doesn’t have the stomach for it, and vily doesn’t have the spine needed.

            May 5, 2021 at 6:48 AM
  • kwnyupstate .

    BREAKING NEWS: PAPI NOT BEING ABLE TO SRP TITANS NOT A PROBLEM AT ALL
    I guess all those pilots are OK with never getting their ships back?
    And they don’t want to have to use them in the future either.
    So what will they do when the Imperium uses them, attack with subcaps?

    April 29, 2021 at 4:45 PM
    • Deni'z von Meanace kwnyupstate .

      Please stop, is that only yhing you are popping up everywhere to flash with?

      April 30, 2021 at 2:23 AM
      • Garreth Vlox Deni'z von Meanace

        It hasn’t stopped being true, why should people stop posting that?

        May 5, 2021 at 6:40 AM
  • Bronze Condor

    Afgoonistan will endure and ultimately come out on top in the end.

    PAPI is a victim of what we like to call: Escalation of Commitment

    April 29, 2021 at 8:47 PM
    • Moomin Amatin Bronze Condor

      Is that like “sunk cost fallacy”? 🙂

      April 29, 2021 at 10:18 PM
      • Bronze Condor Moomin Amatin

        Let’s throw that in there too.

        April 29, 2021 at 10:58 PM
  • PAPI: a buncha rats trying to do a chad’s job.

    April 29, 2021 at 10:24 PM
    • Carvj94 Ganthrithor

      It would take more than a Chad to finish the war at this point. They need at least a Thad now. Possibly even a Lad.

      May 1, 2021 at 4:07 AM
      • Garreth Vlox Carvj94

        “Possibly even a Lad.”

        Papi doesn’t have any of those, they joined the other side to avoid being part of the sad, plodding, pathetic, still managing to lose while outnumbering the opponent 3:1 sack of shit that is their coalition.

        May 5, 2021 at 6:39 AM
  • Deni'z von Meanace

    So the real war was in 2020, in 2021 we have something really different. I’d rather call it the conflict of two paradigms with periodic actions rather than war. Two sides facing the stage of where both motives get sucked dry due to original goal was never fully achieved. No two sides hoping different things – these guys – finlly tired to siege our castle and go home, those guys – they finally tired to defend their castle and give up.
    In addition to that CCP screwed up in it’s common favor the gameplan of both and now nobody wants to risk their pricey assets. Especially attackers, defenders won’t risk their assets as well e.g. attacking bad guy’s KS @ nearby sistem but would do that if it’s allow to turn the page of this conflict and end it up. Gobbins talking about growing mussels in a form of capital ships but it’s too late due to the gameplay changes. And his other words confirm that his horde are still bunch of the kids but with real guns. And they are not ready for the serious battle vs. goons face to face. Cause goons are so experienced in such stuff and well prepared, so noone could outgame them except well prepared and organized coalition. Which we saw back in 2020. Current anti-goon coalition is weaker and less prepared than we saw during Casino war. Cause by those days it was PL/NC.dot leadership doing war management. Villy-Dilly and PoorGoalLeader simply can’t do anything significant without support (if you remember this amazing meme where the bear guys in a pink bikini rolls the dude with golden AK47 in a wheelchair and both been marked as PL and TEST, you know which ones go to whom).
    I only hope that remamining neutrals would change their minds and join this conflict to support one of the sides and finally end it. Cause I’m not ready to participate in a lame CTA’s for another 8 months.

    April 29, 2021 at 10:26 PM
  • This game is a hobby. It provides people with a place to essentially kill time with a hint of progression/reward tacked in. In it there are numerous player against world and player against player scenarios played out.

    With that said pretty much all of the major null security shake ups, losses of Corps or Alliances has been due essentially to internal issues. Some have been helped along with a little external pressure applied but the majority are no longer in existence because of internal schisms and ructions. Regardless whether name changes corp thefts are forced or not if these conditions don’t exist in a major Corp or Alliance then they can NOT be broken EVER! No amount of wishing will change that and incidentally wishing is for children.

    The initial announced victory conditions of this particular war echoed, no, mimicked that of an ancient hubris. It was a poor imitation in as much as those declaring the conditions lack the wit to understand what it meant.

    For those who’ve been in cold storage Han Solo-esque for the last 100 years. The Imperium is already in a forever war and has been for a number of years there is no more room on the forever war slots for any other forever wars. They’ve essentially been forever war’d out since 2005! They’ve also had numerous opportunities to kill off that enemy and has never exorcised it preferring to go down the route of humiliation and serious bloody nose.

    Why?

    Because if it were to exterminate its main enemy then simply its Great enemy is gone and the forever war stops, all the grudges, the reasons for war have to be manufactured, and against smaller less conditioned forces it would amount to light skirmishes followed by completely rolling the war machinery over those individuals until they cracked and split apart. That type of scenario would not do Eve Online any favours at all. I suspect that might be a part of the Imperiums reason to decline the initial TEST offer.

    As I said the Imperium are all out of forever war slots which if PAPI doesn’t finish them off and remove them from the game does not bode well for individual Alliances within the PAPI structure, Legacy and in particular TEST.

    April 29, 2021 at 10:50 PM
  • Garreth Vlox

    “He also said that the war was almost done, and that the light was at the end of the tunnel. Later, Vily said the war’s end could take another eight months.”

    Do these two retards even talk to each other before giving alliance updates?

    April 30, 2021 at 6:00 AM
    • William Doe Garreth Vlox

      It’s actually pretty funny that they’re contradicting each other. It’d even be fine and acceptable if it was something like a small corp. But instead Dumb and Dumber are leading one of the biggest SOV alliances in the game.

      To think, there’s actually people that follow their word as gospel..

      April 30, 2021 at 8:09 AM
  • Elithiel en Gravonere

    “Winning is not currently an option for me. Until PAPI members listen to what their leaders are saying and actually look at the map, they are beyond the reach of reason. This war will last as long as PAPI leadership can convince their members that Goons have to be destroyed. ”

    I think all Goons feel this way. We will keep on fighting for our right to exist. We will continue on to either rebuild after this war or continue to fight a guerrilla war if we lose Delve in the conventional war. Progodlegend (the name shows his arrogance) wants to camp us in Saranen style in Irmalin if we lose Delve. But history shows, M2, Ulax and Saranen itself, we will always be able to bust out sooner or later anyway. Then he’ll face the longest running guerrilla war in the history of Eve…

    May 4, 2021 at 3:23 AM
    • I do hope goons can last longer than Mordus Angels, its going to be so much fun to see Mordus Angels v2 warp around Delve in interceptors yelling “IM STILL RELEVAAAANTTT!!!”

      May 4, 2021 at 11:23 AM
      • Garreth Vlox Dripple

        ” do hope goons can last longer than Mordus Angels, ”

        They lasted more than a year in a hot war outnumbered The whole of nullsec – vs – them? How much more history do you need to re-invent to feel like less of a failure for your inability to beat goons while outnumbering them 3:1?

        May 5, 2021 at 6:35 AM