Honey-golden linings: A Response to Seir

2021-08-07

Header art by Elthar Nox

Having read Seir Luciel’s most recent article entitled “Silver Linings for PAPI; Considerations for Goons,” I wanted to respond for several reasons.  First, Seir is my son and I love him. I admire him, as well: his toughness, his intellectual ability, his willingness to throw himself into the firepit of comments on INN. So, I wanted to respond to make sure that amidst the many comments Seir will receive (his story already has generated many comments), he’ll get at least one response from someone that loves and respects him. I also want to make a reasoned response, avoid name-calling or condescension, and treat his ideas with respect. But second, I want to respond because I believe he’s mistaken in some things and misunderstands some of the issues he addresses here. With that preamble, I set forth.

Leadership Establishes the Culture

Regarding leadership, and how much blame or praise leaders should receive, I’m sympathetic to Seir’s ideas, but only up to a point. Yes, it’s true – line members in any alliance are the ones that do the work that ends with the praise or blame the leaders receive. Praise for the line members is laudatory. So, I’m sympathetic to the idea that larger movements depend on thousands of people, not just those at the top.

But what Seir either doesn’t emphasize, or worse, doesn’t understand, is that leadership shapes the attitudes and morale of the line members. Seir notes that Goons won the morale war and that fewer Goons stopped logging in than PAPI members, who seemed to leave in droves. But Seir doesn’t really address that issue or analyze why the Imperium won the morale war. He just says, “Through collective effort you managed and upheld morale better than your enemies.” What is left out in the phrase “collective effort” is the hours of time Imperium leaders have spent shaping their culture. Imperium leadership fosters a sense of unbreakable community. The key word is “fosters.” Community doesn’t just happen; it gets nurtured. Leaders put structures in place that allow community to grow.  

Leaders put community-building structures in place

In Imperium culture, we have many ways to foster community. Let me provide just a few examples. The Jabber infrastructure, with literally dozens of rooms where people can meet and chat on or about a huge variety topics. Ditto with Mumble. Want to shoot the bull with people interested in the same things you are? You can easily do so.

But those rooms in Jabber and Mumble were created by leaders who understand that a room where people can discuss Minecraft is not superfluous to EVE Online! They understand that publishing articles on INN about delicious food is not completely tangential to war goals. Imperium members can watch multiple talk show streams, several of which are highly entertaining, if not always super informative. Imperium members feel a part of something functional, engaging, and important.

Leaders value and recognize the contributions of individuals

 The weekend before August 2, the Imperium had a massive party for the Imperium’s resident DJ, Mind1. Hundreds of people showed up. Mind1 was showered with gifts. His role in our community was affirmed. People had a wonderful time. I had people tell me they were almost in tears just watching the stream! For some, it was one of the highlights of their EVE experience.

Is it any wonder at all that two days later, thousands of pilots packed 1DQ, on a Monday of all days, to defend what they still held? Did PAPI have a party the weekend before? Did they shoot off fireworks, listen to tunes, and just chill together? Did any PAPI leader even think that would be a good idea? When Groen writes the history of this war, he should include the vital role played by the birthday celebration for Mind1.

No, the lower PAPI turnout was not the line members’ fault

In Seir’s mind, the low turnout for the final “Big Push” was because line members let the alliance down. They didn’t log in. I’ll quote at some length: “On average we sat at about 1.5 what Goons had in any given battle early on, which as time went on continued to creep downward, especially after M2. By the end we hovered meekly around 0.7 of Goons’ numbers. Sometimes even less. No leader could take 1DQ with these numbers. Goons will tell you our leaders let us down, but in reality it’s the other way around. We let them down.”

First, I just find this sad, because it lays blame at the feet of people who, in my opinion, would have logged in and played the game if they felt their contributions and time were valued and important. PAPI line members were let down by their leaders.

Some specific examples: Even as the “Big Push” was happening, some leaders were unanchoring their structures. They had planned, before the push, to leave, as Dunk Dinkle made clear. I was reminded of Red Dead Redemption 2, where Dutch says, “We just need some noise; then we’ll leave with all the money” and he throws the Native Americans to the fire. The entire “Big Push” was “some noise” so that leaders could unanchor while the PAPI line members got sacrificed. And some of those ships sacrificed cost nearly a billion ISK – in a battle that was doomed before it began.

Don’t believe me, because I write for INN and am a Goon? Fine. Listen to Alphastarpilot from last Tuesday’s Trash Talk Tuesday. Read Vince Draken’s angry notice that TEST had not waited to unanchor until Vince could notify his line members. That’s not Goon spin.

To lay blame at line members for not showing up is like saying to those World War 1 soldiers, “What do you mean you won’t rush that defensive position where we’ve already lost 30,000 people! You are letting me down! Your duty is to take orders and show up, not to question my commands!” Let me get a bit personal here. I don’t think anyone should take orders from authority figures without expecting reciprocal respect. I believe it’s wrong to do so. PAPI line members who stopped showing up:  you did not do anything wrong. You fought well for a long time, far longer in my opinion than your leaders should have expected. You have nothing to be ashamed of.

What Seir’s article does, unfortunately for his own alliance, is let the leadership off the hook. To slightly misquote one of my favorite football rants, “[The leaders] were who we thought they were . . . and we let ’em off the hook!” Now, instead of Gobbins having to explain why he encouraged line members to buy expensive ships and the training to fly them, on a mission that really was just “some noise” for unanchoring, Gobbins gets a free pass. All because Seir says it’s the line members fault; for not showing up, and blowing up, and throwing up, so that leaders don’t have to do any growing up.

Dunk Dinkle Understands

Seir also specifically mentions Goons’ reaction to Dunk Dinkle’s mea culpa speech, suggesting that the Imperium members’ praise for Dunk accepting responsibility was a back-handed way of slapping down other PAPI leaders, with the concomitant nefarious motive of undercutting their authority or inciting rebellion. Here’s my take: Goons don’t need to praise Dunk as a backhanded way to slap down other PAPI leaders. I have no trouble saying that certain PAPI leaders showed horrible leadership skills. I’ve done so here on INN numerous times. Praising Dunk to slap down Vily or PGL just doesn’t match with Imperium’s history of lambasting leadership unabashedly. Imperium people don’t lambast in an underhanded, tricksy Hobbit, way: if anything, they are too over-the-top and offensively direct.

Seir also suggests that Goon’s praise for Dunk is a pre-emptive attempt to assuage Goon guilt for what might happen to Dunk and Brave in the future. Again, my hat is off to Dunk for taking responsibility because he is responsible. I praise that quality not with any secondary motive but because it goes to one of my core values: if you are placed in a leadership position, you are responsible for the behavior and culture of your organization. And that’s why Dunk deserves praise. And my praise does not clear my conscience for what might happen to Brave, because my conscience is completely clear already. Hey, if you come at the king, you best not miss.

Dunk Ain’t Oedipus

Seir says, “BRAVE was fated to be the victim of history . . . stuck in the middle of it all.” I don’t believe in fate; rather, I believe in free will and that people make choices, some better and some worse. BRAVE leadership, including Dunk, chose to align themselves with Legacy and TEST. They had other options (ask Dunk if you don’t believe me), including non-participation.  Other groups remained unaligned, refusing the join the blue donut. The Freemen of the North didn’t align themselves with anyone.  They chose not to and they have not, therefore, incurred the wrath of angry bees.

Time Frame for Recovery: Shorter Than You Think

Finally, I believe Seir is mistaken in his belief that because Goons have been beaten down, it will take them a long time to recover, allowing all former PAPI organizations time to zoom ahead.  He says, “TEST may be next all you like, but while you repair a charred landscape, groups in Panfam, Fraternity, and AOM will be churning away like nothing happened, infrastructure fully intact.” Well, true, but only if the culture of the organization already has been to “churn away” in mining, krabbing, and industry. But I’ve repeatedly made the point that such is not the case with many organizations. They choose to rent to generate ISK and feel themselves above doing anything except “elite PvP.” I don’t think it will be long at all before Goons rebuild, and they’ll be smarter than before and will rebuild with the idea in mind that this invasion they just experienced will once again be repeated at some point in the future.

Right now, as I type this, the timer board for the Imperium has over 100 targets. Infrastructure Hubs are being destroyed so quickly I don’t want to type the number now, because by the time this article is published, it will have increased greatly. However long you think it will take Goons to rebuild, you probably should reduce it by 50%. Further, CCP plans to make significant changes to scarcity, so making assumptions about the difficulty of rebuilding based on the difficulty of production post-scarcity is faulty.  I don’t know the changes CCP will make (and neither does Seir), but soon it will be much easier for Goons to rebuild what they have lost.

In sum, Goons deserve to celebrate, and they will, but the work of reclamation has already begun. Some participants in this war may not ever recover. But that group won’t include Goons.

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Comments

  • Jeet_Kundo

    Right now, as I type this, the timer board for the Imperium has over 100 targets. Infrastructure Hubs are being destroyed so quickly I don’t want to type the number now, because by the time this article is published, it will have increased greatly.

    We had anywhere between 8-10 fleets running round the clock yesterday hitting timers like teachers herding kids between events on Field Day. Caish sounded like he was running on his 10th cup of coffee as he bounced us between 2-3 structures within the same system or one neighboring us to either ref a structure or pre-load damage for another fleet of bombers to come take over for the jacks we split off, finally flying out to monitor one of the first structures we’ve dropped out of the 1DQ constellation in months. In that one fleet and about an hour and a half’s time, we brought about 4-5 structures to their hull timers and onlined one of our own.

    Given a conservative estimate on efficiency, since I don’t assume everyone was max DPS at all times, we’re doing a bare minimum of 25 structures an hour across all active fleets. I’ve no doubt that we’ll have things cleaned up in a matter of weeks, rather than months. Good write up and with a more sobered tone of what what was ultimately being said.

    August 7, 2021 at 7:47 AM
    • Garreth Vlox Jeet_Kundo

      I see the past war resulting in 1dq1 style “hell grids” being the go to from now on. No more structures all over a system bullshit, you will see everything but moon mining arrays stacked on the same grid in a layered format with the industrial stations, sotiyos and keepstars at the center.

      August 7, 2021 at 7:08 PM
      • Gray Doc Garreth Vlox

        And starting from scratch in many systems might well be easier than re-configuring existing locations. It might be an actual benefit to the Imperium to have the chance to completely start anew in many systems and do them “right” this time.

        August 7, 2021 at 7:21 PM
        • Arrendis Gray Doc

          It was after the Casino War. We got to build up clean, reorganize, and bounced back stronger, because leadership was willing to make hard choices not everyone would agree with, and then the line members were (mostly) willing to trust us and give it a try.

          But that trust isn’t owed. It’s earned. We made damned sure to protect the line’s wallets and assets during the Casino War, even if it meant bleeding the Alliance Wallet almost dry. I don’t think the alliances that have to retreat and rebuild up in Outer Passage or Geminate can say that.

          August 8, 2021 at 2:06 PM
          • Jeet_Kundo Arrendis

            I’m a broken record when it comes to this statement: we probably have the most forward-thinking leadership in the game, it comes with the territory of having a target painted on your back for over a decade

            August 8, 2021 at 7:14 PM
      • Jeet_Kundo Garreth Vlox

        I’d imagine the same. We’ve a fresh slate, so we can see what comes of it. I’ve personally gotten pretty comfy in our constellation and would prefer not to see multitudes of empty systems like we had before. I understand having some trophy structures, and I can see them fitting in whatever configuration there may be, but having assets otherwise scattered into the wind that took glassing by the rest of null to clean up was an indicator in itself just how far our effective range was with regard to infrastructure being otherwise ineffective.

        August 8, 2021 at 6:52 AM
  • Eve_Osir1s

    A well written rebuttal!

    “Finally, I believe Seir is mistaken in his belief that because Goons have been beaten down, it will take them a long time to recover, allowing all former PAPI organizations time to zoom ahead. “

    There is some truth to this from Seir. We have incurred quite a large debt and we will need to rebuild some of Delve. If Brave and TEST are going to crash on PanFam’s couch it will be a bit before any revenge aside from taking our home back. Although only time will tell for certain, I do believe you are correct that the former members of PAPI will not be able to zoom ahead as Seir claims because many of them lack the culture or will to do so as you said.

    August 7, 2021 at 10:52 AM
    • Garreth Vlox Eve_Osir1s

      literallty all of legacy besides TEST was thrown under the bus so at best panfam will be be ready to “zoom ahead” but that is at best a chance, not a certainty, especially if they intent to shelter test, who is next, from the goon counter attack.

      August 7, 2021 at 9:10 PM
    • Exactly. The PAPI states had the last I-can’t-even-remember number of years in which to replicate our MER numbers prior to this war, yet never did. This was not because Delve was an inherently-superior region– it’s because the cultural values of the PAPI states did not make productivity a priority. Goons will be back up to speed before the PAPI states are, because the PAPI states literally never got up to speed in the first place and probably never will– they’ll just do what they do best: complain on Reddit and go sulk on the other side of the map for a while before amusing themselves by punching down on some far-away minor powers for the “good fights.”

      August 8, 2021 at 7:38 AM
    • Arrendis Eve_Osir1s

      > We have incurred quite a large debt

      From what Kaz said the other night, we’re more than capable of servicing the war bond debt.

      August 8, 2021 at 2:08 PM
      • Eve_Osir1s Arrendis

        This sounds like an excellent opportunity for my first interview article.

        August 8, 2021 at 11:34 PM
  • Moomin Amatin

    Seir is on a journey of discovery in my opinion.

    He started off in a strong position with the PAPI narrative of “toxic goon leadership and members” being the strongest narrative at the start of the war. His confidence was riding high as victory was all but assured.

    Despite numerous articles by other INN authors detailing certain facts Sier fiercely defended the PAPI position. As time went on Seir found himself using stronger language to describe the “goon menace”. Words like “cult” and comparisons to North Korea were abound in later Seir pieces. Even went so far to do ad hominem attacks.

    Now with it being clear to all concerned that the war is lost for PAPI Seir is still pushing the PAPI leader hyperbole. Congratulating Imperium members while insulting its leaders placing the victory in the hands of the line members. Whereas for PAPI he is letting the leaders off the hook while blaming the line members for the disaster that is Beeitnam.

    He is now resigned to making small digs at INN about the supposed “bravery” of PAPI members for even daring to enter. He even goes so far to continue the myth of “redditswarm”. The fact that he thinks this is a real thing is further testament to being out of touch. This is not the sign of a “good loser”. This is the sign of a bitter mind entrenched in their own failure that seems intent to absolve themselves of their role in this. Next he will be on about fictitious “server caps” and other nonsense spewed from PAPI leadership.

    My hope in this is that Seir holds a mirror up to himself. Perhaps this is his intent all along. To explore aspects of himself through the medium of a video game. To be callous and cruel, disregarding facts and creating their own in order to “win at any cost”. Maybe we shall see in his next piece.

    August 7, 2021 at 12:05 PM
    • Guilford Australis Moomin Amatin

      I’m not sure he’s on a journey. He’s right where he started: an obsequious servant of the PAPI narrative, still clutching the final threads of the lies his leaders fed him.

      He accuses The Imperium of believing lies from our leadership. But our leaders promised us survival and delivered it. That promise was not a lie. We not only survived but won.

      Seir compared The Imperium to North Korea for our supposed dependence on propaganda. Well, I’ll return the favor and compare PAPI to the Confederate States of America for its ridiculous postwar “Lost Cause” narrative. Despite failing in every objective and being proven as worse and more toxic than the coalition they fought, they still want to hold on to the notion that their cause was noble.

      August 7, 2021 at 2:21 PM
      • Garreth Vlox Guilford Australis

        ” Despite failing in every objective and being proven as worse and more toxic than the enemy they fought, they still want to hold on to the myth that their cause was noble.”

        This is the best comparison made this far.

        August 8, 2021 at 12:41 AM
      • Seir Luciel Guilford Australis

        “Despite failing in every objective and being proven as worse and more
        toxic than the enemy they fought, they still want to hold on to the myth
        that their cause was noble”

        Isn’t it possible others might legitimately see things from a different perspective than you?

        August 8, 2021 at 4:33 AM
        • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

          “Isn’t it possible others might legitimately see things from a different perspective than you?”

          Of course they could see things differently. They would obviously be wrong given the complete rout that has become the PAPI “extraction” process, but they could choose to see things differently if it made them feel better about completely failing to acheive their victory conditions as their entire coalitions falls apart as it runs for the fucking hills.

          August 8, 2021 at 4:45 AM
        • Arrendis Seir Luciel

          I think, Seir, you should probably check out a lot of the leaks coming out before attempting to defend PAPI leadership on the issue of toxicity. More importantly, though? Dude, enjoy the honeymoon and don’t worry about this terrible game right now.

          August 8, 2021 at 2:12 PM
  • kwnyupstate .

    Maybe it is best that former PAPI mouthpieces continue to say it was the players’ fault because those players definitely don’t think so. They certainly won’t be willing to follow the same horrible leaders into future wars if they now think they are blaming them for the failure.
    If I was fighting a war for over a year only to hear leadership say I let them down I’d be fucking done with those morons immediately.

    August 7, 2021 at 1:20 PM
    • Gray Doc kwnyupstate .

      Stockholm Syndrome anyone?

      August 7, 2021 at 2:28 PM
  • Garreth Vlox

    It was intersting to see Seir double down on his hardline pro-papi propaganda stance. He had a golden opportunity here to see the light and realize his leaders sold him a complete load of bullshit in an attempt to further their own repuatations at the cost of his time and in-game/IRL money, and he just flat out refuses to hold them to account for that choice.

    Instead he blames himself and the other demoralized papi pilots for refusing to keep logging in and fighting, even though that was the correct thing to do once they realized they were following a collection of idiots who had no idea what they were doing, or how to bring the war to a conclusion that didn’t end with everyone jsut grabbing their own shit and running in 6 different directions.

    This is a classic, “I know I’m wrong, but I refuse to admit it in front of all the people who told me I was wrong for the past year” situation.

    August 7, 2021 at 3:48 PM
    • Guilford Australis Garreth Vlox

      His article started strong, admitting defeat and complimenting The Imperium for its success. He had a moment there where I thought he was going to do a noble “there was a dream once that was Rome” speech and acknowledge that PAPI had goals that simply couldn’t be accomplished and the way it ended was not what was intended when the coalition formed. He could have earned a lot of goodwill for that while simultaneously distancing himself from his history of slavish devotion to narratives that were contradicted by all available evidence and ultimately turned out to be wrong.

      But he didn’t do that.

      August 7, 2021 at 5:23 PM
  • Seir Luciel

    I shouldn’t have said it was the players fault for burning out. That was pretty crappy. At least, I could have put it better. Between war fatigue, M2, and little progress at during the stalemate, people can only push so hard and keep their morale up so long.

    PAPI players worked really hard and accomplished a great deal. They shouldn’t be berated because things didn’t turn out like we hoped at the final hour.

    I still worry it wasn’t winnable for the reasons I stated in my Casus Belli article. I worry the scale of the game got so big, along with the current defensive mechanics coupled with a hard chokepoint, made Goons in truly an un-losable position. As I said before, when all of nullsec votes with their weapons to put an empire’s reign to an end and they can’t (with the threat of an easy Goon bounceback), I wonder if I simply joined the game too late, if its impossible for a large enough team to lose so long as they’ve got a small enough hallway to shoot down.

    In some ways TEST really better be next. Because if in the end they hunker down like Goons did with a strong choke, and Goons get stuck on the outside and end up having to turn around like we did because they couldn’t push through either . . . Let’s just say I’ll be more than disappointed.

    August 8, 2021 at 4:10 AM
    • Jeet_Kundo Seir Luciel

      Too many chiefs in the tribe that otherwise only came together, in light of otherwise hating each other’s guts in every way, to fights goons tucked away in our corner of the galaxy – and they barely did that. It wasn’t a righteous inquisition, it was axes fresh off the whet – led by ex-goons on a vanity project. PGL wanted to have the glory, Gobbins wanted to destroy our faction stations, I don’t think Vily knew what he wanted, Hedliner…don’t know really, and Noraus for what I believe to be expansion (the only one on their side that I believe truly won anything is FRT).

      This is why we keep jumping back to leadership sucking eggs – don’t log back in, don’t use caps, don’t move forward without placing a jammer, don’t, don’t, don’t. This was PAPI’s war to win, and they were on the precipice, M2 spooked them, leading them to make a bad call both for the time and for the future that haunted them the rest of the war. If it wasn’t such a vanity project, the war would’ve gone out with a bang instead of a whimper – iron price was too much, they would lose all their power collectively as well as individually, which then switches the analogy to too many princes all fighting for the throne.

      The reality is that toppling us would leave a power vacuum that they wanted to simply walk in and fill – but when they discovered that toppling us would topple them as well, not leaving them strategically positioned to simply park themselves on the throne, they didn’t want it. The princes started eyeing each others’ armies and hiding their gold – PAPI leadership was not a merry band of brothers on a noble cause, they were wanting to replace the Top Dog with themselves, which I can’t see how that would change null for the better, or change it at all for that matter. I believe you were deceived, told what they thought you wanted to hear, and played you, and the rest of the line, like a fiddle.

      August 8, 2021 at 4:35 AM
      • Seir Luciel Jeet_Kundo

        “Too many chiefs in the tribe that otherwise only came together, in light of otherwise hating each other’s guts in every way, to fights goons”

        My very point in my Serenity Superstition Article (which at the time was so vehemently disagreed with, I think primarily out of guile more than sincerity). The enemy of my enemy is my friend; as such, Goons made so many enemies they made friends out of all of nullsec for a time.

        “The reality is that toppling us would leave a power vacuum that they wanted to simply walk in and fill.”

        Yes, I do believe that’s how war and politics work.

        August 8, 2021 at 4:52 AM
        • Jeet_Kundo Seir Luciel

          Then where’s this idea of nobility stemming from then? If they wanted what was best for null, them taking us out with them would’ve knocked everyone down a peg

          August 8, 2021 at 4:56 AM
          • Seir Luciel Jeet_Kundo

            Was it out of nobility that Rome was attacked?

            August 8, 2021 at 4:58 AM
          • Jeet_Kundo Seir Luciel

            That’s answering a question with a question, not to mention that Rome was collapsing on itself long before the final assault – it overextended its territories, rebellion and invasions of its outer territories chewed them down. The entire premise of the war, rather the claim, was it would be “good for the game.” You reasserted this concern that not being able to push us down would be problematic, being “too big to fail” when it would’ve been nothing more than a regime change in name but not in function, not a grand reset of null.

            I personally would’ve loved to watch it all burn down for both sides in a blaze of glory, that’s where lessons are learned, new strategies are born, and the annihilation of super fleets would’ve opened the doors for smaller groups and a new race to run in.

            August 8, 2021 at 5:14 AM
          • Seir Luciel Jeet_Kundo

            Look, I still have respect for Goons but there’s plenty I didn’t like seeing from them this war. Here’s just three I personally didn’t like from Goons during the war, things I thought were problematic.

            1: Goons hated Vily, which was understandable, and churned their propaganda engine at him which is their perogative. But I think they went too far a few times, times I felt at times dipped into cyberbullying. When The Mittani delayed the meta show and asked Goons to go harass Vily during his CSM interview. In sports this would have gotten a personal foul and be called unsportsmanlike conduct. I know people are going to disagree with me on this, but I think Goon actions here stepped too far outside of the video game perimeters.

            2. Goons were defending scamming even during the war and will still defend it. Not a good look.

            3. Goons attacked the orphanage with SO. I heard one person lamenting that he saw more Goons showing up to attack the orphanage than on pings to defend the homeland; this was when Goon morale was worse off, earlier in the war. He asked: “Are we the bad guys?”

            I know Goons are always going to remember the extermination rhetoric coming out PAPI and claim that PAPI was the actual toxic group. They’ve also declared all renting groups immoral beyond redemption. I think in their minds everything pales in comparison, so why even both thinking about it. Just remember not everything feels that way.

            August 8, 2021 at 5:37 AM
          • Jeet_Kundo Seir Luciel

            1. This literally did not happen according to the narrative – if I could even try to dig that far back on the logs, I would, because we were absolutely *not* instructed to go brigade his stream and be meanies. The notion of that was, and still is, absurd, and people at the time did post the single ping that went out regarding the interview. Suggesting we watch something is not the same as suggesting to attack something. I can just as easily argue that he delayed it to listen himself to get material to speak on for the Meta Show.

            2. This would not stop with goons, is not specific to goons, happens quite literally everywhere ranging from hisec to null, PAPI felt it was fine so long as it was scamming goons, which doesn’t necessarily establish a moral high-ground and is nothing more than exceptionalism. Whether PAPI does such things as well, I cannot say. KF, the largest group in goons, has expressly forbidden it unless there was a policy change somewhere. It’s even written out in description that if you paid or were not conducted through a certain process, you likely got scammed. I personally am against it myself.

            3. I have nothing in particular to say on the matter; I didn’t participate nor was even aware of it since it was busy-season in public Audit and didn’t play from January through March – I had to dig up an old article from here just now to see that it ever occurred. I have no idea who they are for that matter, what was the significance of this event?

            I’m still going to rope us back to my original question that has not been directly addressed and simply gone on tangents: how would removing us, which realistically isn’t possible without everyone quitting and that simply has not happened, no matter how many times we have been slapped down, be good for the game, nonetheless good for null, by simply replacing us in every way but in function? You’ve listed your reasons for not liking goons but I’m not asking about what the line members though when leadership started the war with specific statements and objectives in mind.

            August 8, 2021 at 6:01 AM
          • Deni'z von Meanace Jeet_Kundo

            You should ask him as well how attacking Horde and written them off the game by both Legacy and Goons be good for the game?

            August 8, 2021 at 6:43 AM
          • Jeet_Kundo Deni'z von Meanace

            One thing at a time, not trying to go on any further tangents and don’t want to open up the court to give opportunity to them

            August 8, 2021 at 6:47 AM
          • It’s really too bad you weren’t around for the whole, “Beep beep, I’m a truck” routine. This is literally exactly the kind of pearl-clutching shit BoB used to throw around when they needed a good public excuse to enjoy curb-stomping a bunch of newbies to flaunt their dominance, soothe their Elite PvP egos, and pad their killboards. Look how that turned out for them.

            August 8, 2021 at 7:45 AM
          • Seir Luciel Ganthrithor

            Honestly, sometimes pearls need to be clutched. How many cultural revolutions did you have? Those were good things, remember, deserving respect.

            August 8, 2021 at 12:11 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

            Literally nothing in this whole “everyone v goons” war that you failed to execute required the clutching of pearls. You’re just grabbing at straws to avoid admitting you failed, your fucked up, and its going to hurt the whole way home, and you hope we don’t follow you all the way back home and keep handing out beatings the whole way.

            August 9, 2021 at 5:05 AM
          • Arrendis Seir Luciel

            > 3. Goons attacked the orphanage with SO. I heard one person lamenting that he saw more Goons showing up to attack the orphanage than on pings to defend the homeland; this was when Goon morale was worse off, earlier in the war. He asked: “Are we the bad guys?”

            https://br.evetools.org/related/30002666/202101220000

            If more Goons showed up to this attack than defended the homeland, then PAPI got beat by six Goons.
            Really, I’d be shocked if most of us even knew the attack was happening. January, well after M2, was not exactly a low point in morale or participation.

            Next, let’s Oh, look at who else is there, nominally on the Snuffed Out side… Blades of Grass (PAPI) and TEST Alliance Please Ignore. Huh. Of the six goons, one’s in a monitor, so he clearly didn’t do any damage to the structure. Another’s only on the BR in a pod. Then 2 Proteii and 2 Punishers.

            INIT had a group of Harpies there… but you know, 11 harpies. With Titans on the field They’re not exactly a force multiplier, or enough to swing the defense. And it’s impossible to look at the BR and easily say just who really is on which side there. It’s almost like a whole bunch of everyone showed up, and when it was obvious the sotiyo would die, whored on the kill. (Gasp! People do that?)

            And then you’ve got INN, openly calling Snuff ‘the bad guys’ in this situation during the liveblog. Look! https://imperium.news/the-battle-for-basgerin-pope-sotiyo/

            Not exactly a ringing declaration of support, is it?

            Also, the ‘are we the bad guys?’ thing is so obviously someone joking around. You don’t go quoting SNL sketches because of some real epiphany. 😛

            So, y’know, rendering judgment on a group of alliances because 18 pilots show up in a 1000-pilot BR on the side you don’t like… ‘Not a good look’, to use your own words. It makes it look like you’re reaching, and tossing out any canard you think you can. Even if it’s just hearsay you haven’t actually looked into yourself.

            BTW, we haven’t declared ‘all renting groups immoral beyond redemption’. The guys who pay rent? They’re just looking for someplace to make money in null. How they get that place is their call.

            The guys who collect the rent? If they wanted to say ‘pay for the ihub upgrades and sov bills and that’s it’, maybe make their money off of taxes and fees in structures they provide? I think we’d probably be fine with that.

            But profiting off of other peoples’ labor… making money by not playing the game, and just extorting it from the guys who do get out there and risk their butts in space? Yeah, that’s a dick move. You want money, you earn it. Don’t be fucking parasites. And while the activity’s immoral and irredeemable, the actors aren’t. It’s never too late to say ‘we will not be parasites any more’.

            But renting isn’t the toxicity we’re talking about. Go look at the statements your leaders made. Go look at what your own guys are leaking about them.

            August 8, 2021 at 2:45 PM
          • Jeet_Kundo Arrendis

            So I wasn’t crazy for thinking this wasn’t a big deal and ultimately didn’t involve us at all in any meaningful fashion. From the INN article I found, it even listed at the bottom “if you want to defend”, I didn’t find anything that encouraged goons to attack

            August 8, 2021 at 7:08 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

            1. But not enough to start a war of extermination to stop him from playing the game. A war you signed up for willingly as well. We are the defender in all of this.
            2. PAPI line members just got scammed to hell and back. You also refuse to even think of where all that rental income has gone. Best bit is that “scamming” is considered to be a key feature of the game, at least according to CCP. By the way I hope you bought the “new tengu” doctrine at 900 mill a pop.
            3. PAPI going on hisec missions to attack new player groups as they thought they could be goons. ICY/TTT are all PAPI creations. PAPI have killed more alliances in this war than any other group ever I think, at least in one sitting. Oh yeah, and something about a war of exterminaiton to stop people from playing a video game.

            This is your war by the way Seir. One where you fought for your leadership both here and in game until and beyond the bitter end.

            August 8, 2021 at 4:07 PM
          • J Moravia Seir Luciel

            I heard one person lamenting that TEST, after claiming goons were the bad guys because they were too big and too strong, formed a blue donut with 75% of the galaxy and tried to exterminate another group from the game. He asked, “Are we the bad guys?”

            Wait, no, he never did that, because it would have required self-awareness and introspection.

            August 8, 2021 at 5:47 PM
          • Rhivre Seir Luciel

            Which time?
            At the end, it turns out Rome should have paid its bills 🙂

            August 9, 2021 at 6:14 AM
      • Malcanis Jeet_Kundo

        “I don’t think Vily knew what he wanted,”

        Vily was very clear what he wanted: he wanted to be the main character in Empires of EVE III

        August 8, 2021 at 1:15 PM
    • Gray Doc Seir Luciel

      First, I appreciate your own mea culpa here with the correction about line members. It’s always a mark of intestinal fortitude to admit you’ve made a mistake. Next, I don’t get why you “worry” that Goons might have gotten too big. Why care? I don’t see that the Imperium’s business was, or will be, affecting how you play the game, or at least I didn’t see that before the war. Now, I guess, all bets are off because I personally want some retribution for what has happened for 13 months. But what if the Imperium ARE the largest and most successful group? Why would that bother you? How would it change your gameplay? How would it diminish your enjoyment? There seems to be, for many, the idea that if you aren’t number one you are shit and there’s no point in playing. I don’t share that idea. You didn’t come to EVE “too late.” It’s a fun game. You should have been having fun beating down (which you did) the Imperium for as long as you did. And, like the Imperium members, you should have fun defending your space should you be called upon to do so.

      August 8, 2021 at 7:40 AM
      • Jeet_Kundo Gray Doc

        Next, I don’t get why you “worry” that Goons might have gotten too big. Why care? I don’t see that the Imperium’s business was, or will be, affecting how you play the game, or at least I didn’t see that before the war.

        Given opinions that we hear from other PAPI line members, whether adopted from their leaders or coming to groupthink on their own, they constructed the idea that we’re this massive boogeyman waiting to happen, this terror of the deep waiting to conquer all of null.

        Taking that much space would be complete ass, it’s the allegory of Rome waiting to happen, and we’ve had arguably more fun in our 5? systems than we’ve ever had since we were booted off to Delve – I have, alongside statements from fleets, anyway. The irony is that they recruited everyone but us, and a few fringe groups, to form the very thing they feared we would do. We’re not a massive renter alliance, we don’t share in that same “business model”, thereby not sharing in their mentality that they’ve projected onto us to somehow justify whatever the true objective of this war was meant to achieve. It’s conjecture at the core and we’ll likely never know the truth; it’s premise is riddled with ulterior motive with just how faulty it is.

        If goons have learned anything from the war, regarding territory anyway, is that it provides much greater benefit to have a strong core in lieu of vast stretches of underutilized space.

        August 8, 2021 at 10:36 AM
    • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

      You are making progress but you still have some way to go.

      I will address one major flaw in your response though regarding server performance. A key feature of the B-R titan massacre was the Imperium and allies using subcaps to control access to the system. It was lauded as tactical brilliance at the time.

      I have explained at length how PAPI could have won this war. Many PAPI leaders are now admitting their failures which I had already pointed out. Given the pace that the Imperium and their allies are re-taking everything should also dispell the “defender advantage”.

      Now remember B-R was an age ago. Most of your leaders were all there for it as well. They knew all about server weather then, they wrote articles on it, mocked us for “Enho” and for FWST (I think it was that one). To then lay the blame on server weather is just incredibly weak. Why do you insist on pushing this narrative?

      August 8, 2021 at 3:57 PM
      • Garreth Vlox Moomin Amatin

        “Why do you insist on pushing this narrative?”

        Because the alternative is admitting his own leadership is a cluster of morons incapable of learning from the well recorded past…

        August 9, 2021 at 5:11 AM
    • J Moravia Seir Luciel

      the current defensive mechanics coupled with a hard chokepoint, made Goons in truly an un-losable position.

      Did Vily know about these game mechanics before he declared a war of extermination against goons? Yes. So why did he make “1DQ1-A or we fail” – a direct quote from him, by the way – his war goal?

      PAPI line members shouldn’t be blamed for quitting. They should be blamed for following such miserably poor leadership in the first place, and for not bailing sooner.

      August 8, 2021 at 4:51 PM
    • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

      “In some ways TEST really better be next. Because if in the end they hunker down like Goons did with a strong choke, and Goons get stuck on the outside and end up having to turn around like we did because they couldn’t push through either . . . Let’s just say I’ll be more than disappointed.”

      Test has shown repeatedly throughout this war they are INCAPABLE of fighting on their own and winning. Why would that change, now that their owners (note they have no more allies after they threw their OWN COALITION under the bus while evaccing) are the only thinng protecting them from goons?

      August 9, 2021 at 5:09 AM
    • Frans Bovens Seir Luciel

      Goons where not in a unlosable position, your leaders failed and refused tc pay the iron price. If they kept the balls to fight supercap fights outside yammed systems at the start of this war, who knows… if u lose look at yourself and try to improve. Noone is unbeatable. Such numbers u all head omg

      August 9, 2021 at 5:50 AM
    • Arrendis Seir Luciel

      > As I said before, when all of nullsec votes with their weapons to put an empire’s reign to an end and they can’t (with the threat of an easy Goon bounceback), I wonder if I simply joined the game too late, if its impossible for a large enough team to lose so long as they’ve got a small enough hallway to shoot down.

      Just to make this clear: It was entirely possible for PAPI to have won a war against us. PAPI leadership made mistake after mistake in how they prosecuted the war. I don’t mean on a tactical level—individual fights went as they’d go, and Vily, Piggles, etc, are competent FCs.

      That said, on a strategic level, yeah, many missteps. On an organizational level, they made even more. You did not come to the game too late. You came to the game just in time to see what basically amounts to a leaderless mob attempt to storm a castle. They overwhelmed the area outside the walls, and eventually took the outer bailey. They did not breach the keep… but only because they were unwilling to do what was needed.

      Had PAPI leadership been cohesive and coordinated, and made proper use of the tools at their disposal… yes, they could have broken 1DQ.

      So when you say ‘when all of nullsec votes with their weapons to put an empire’s reign to and end and they can’t’ It’s not that they can’t. It’s that they did not execute. People fail all the time attempting things where they could have succeeded. That does not mean the thing is impossible. It only means they failed.

      August 9, 2021 at 8:29 PM
  • Elithiel en Gravonere

    It’s now well over 300+ papi structures have timers on them. Most of them are cored. That’s just Delve, Fountain and Querious and PB are now burning already. It’ll be a matter of weeks before Delve is back to it’s former glory, less the keepstars. A few months later and perhaps the keepstars are all back too. What’s more, most line members aren’t drained of wealth. On the contrary, we were still making isk each day, on alts. It was part of our survival strategy. Many of us are richer now than before the war.

    August 9, 2021 at 3:24 AM
  • Elithiel en Gravonere

    I would like to point out that Goons were never really a menace to the rest of Eve. Unlike BoB we had absolutely no intention on taking over the galaxy. We were happily mining and ratting and minding our own business in Delve and we had no intention of expansion plans. Besides goodfights and sigs and squads hitting panfam (GEF deployment), there was no intent to crush our enemies to death. We did fleet roams and took wormholes often to do so. That was really the extent of our campaigns. The imperium was largely a defensive alliance and thus only reactive to attacks against us. In which fictional world, did the leaders of PaPi ever see us as ready to conquer their space? We are industrialists who also pvp and so our culture, is a mix of Achievers and Killers in this spacegame. We go and hit regions for lulz to keep our Killers happy, but don’t need that space. Our own space was fine for our industrialists and still is. We were simply happy fat bees, making our honey and besides the deployments to keep our warriors sharp, largely kept to ourselves.

    I posit a second reason for PaPi attacking us. They were simply jealous of what we had built as Eve’s premiere industrialists.

    August 9, 2021 at 3:56 AM
    • It’s also noteworthy that Vale had been outproducing Delve for some time when the War started. Making that causus belli even more hypocritical.

      August 9, 2021 at 11:12 AM