World War Bee: One Year of War


Header art by Elthar Nox

One year ago, officially July 5, 2020, saw the commencement of World War Bee. The collected forces of 103 alliances formed a mega-coalition – at the behest of member coalition, Legacy – a mega-coalition that would later be known as PAPI. The military leaders of Legacy were most vocal in the reasons for the war; hence, the purpose of PAPI was stated clearly: “We are aiming for the removal of Mittani and The Imperium from Eve Online” and “We are here to purge them.” That was the language being touted, at the time, to justify the war on the Imperium. That language also prompted The Mittani to sound the “Horn of Goondor” – only to be sounded under the most dire of circumstances – where “true Goons” were called to come and defend the homeland.

The Anaconda

In the early days of the war, some PAPI leaders said a lot; others were simply silent. Therefore, this early “extermination” and “removal” rhetoric was then echoed gleefully by PAPI line members in the local chats of the game, probably thinking this was the “party line,” since no dissenting PAPI voices were in the mix. Members of the Imperium were under no delusion that the forces of PAPI could actually remove the Imperium from the game. I even penned a small piece to explain my own thinking, back in September 2020, “The Return of the Goon.” In it I make very clear my own personal expectations that the Imperium would be overwhelmed by far superior numbers.

The strategy that the PAPI forces first employed was to be the “Anaconda Strategy.” A simple principle of surrounding an enemy force, and limiting supply, with the intent of compressing them into an ever-smaller space. This compression would then force members of the Imperium to leave nullsec or even to quit the game completely. Of course, PAPI leaders stated that this was all for “the good of the game” and that to remove the “toxic leadership” of the Imperium would be healthy for the game. So, PAPI set about the task of attacking the outer regions of space belonging to the Imperium. A very slow and methodical attack requiring little skill, innovation, or imagination.

The Ice Age

The early attacks by PAPI moved at a glacial pace. However, the PAPI member PanFam had made far better progress in Fountain, where Imperium member The Initiative delayed PanFam as best they could. PAPI progressed so slowly that I even offered some guidance, as I felt the Imperium was as prepared as they could be to defend their home system of 1DQ.

Events seemed to be coming to a head with the attempts made by PAPI to anchor a Keepstar in an NPC constellation of Delve. Heroic battles, the likes of which have never been seen before, literally, were conducted. We also saw the daring attempt by Imperium forces, in “Operation Enho,” to wipe out PAPI super capital forces. The plan failed, but it ironically bred a morale boost within the Imperium, as Imperium members knew they had the best strategists in the game on their side, coupled with a willingness to take enormous risks. Then there were the records broken during FWST, with several more against-the-odds wins for the Imperium.

The battle that prevented many battles

PAPI then made what The Mittani, leader of the Imperium, considers to be their biggest mistake. PAPI established their main staging in the system of T5Z, which is right next door to 1DQ. This move echoed one from history, in which Darius Johnson had all Goons move to Delve, midwar, which was already inhabited by their enemy, BoB. Perhaps Vily wanted Legacy to repeat that daring move, which while risky, ultimately ended well for Goons.

However, with this move the PAPI invasion slowed to a halt. This was especially the case after the disastrous events of M2-XFE. It was only after The Mittani declared an end to the “hellcamp” of M2 that PAPI spirits lifted.

Following the events of M2, PAPI have become more than a little coy at taking on any battle where they risk capital assets. Who can blame them? The “in-cyno” for the second battle of M2-X was the worst and most expensive combat mistake ever made in the history of EVE Online. The most amusing aspect of this event was that it occurred under the guidance of the self-declared best and most experienced FC to have ever have played the game, Vily.

In the last three months PAPI have declared the “official siege” of the 1DQ constellation. There have also been statements by PAPI leadership that this state of affairs is likely to remain status quo for the foreseeable future.

Truth: The First Casualty of War

Stories are a big part of what makes people log into EVE. Even those who have no interest in the nullsec meta are still affected by the grand story arcs created. There really is no escaping narratives, given their capacity to drive marketplaces and players’ behaviour.

Imperium had the easier narrative path: survive

From the outset the Imperium has been very clear in its objectives. They have been unwavering and consistent. Imperium members were to resist extermination and delay the forces of PAPI as best they could. If necessary, the Imperium would fight from NPC Delve. The Imperium was “all in” and this resolve has been shown more than once – Operation Enho showed a willingness to take risks and sacrifice titans; the battles of FWST showed a willingness to sacrifice vast amounts of ISK to prevent the attackers from anchoring structures in Delve.

This approach was bolstered for years within the Imperium, as they knew that “all of Eve” would come for them again, even as they had in The Casino War. As World War Bee has “progressed” all the “sweet summer children” within the Imperium have become bloodied veterans. In this war, a new age of “true goons” is being forged, for this is now a “hellwar.” Nothing else really needs saying regarding the situation the Imperium is in. The numbers are very much against them; yet they still manage to hold out.

Cerberus Barks with Three Heads

PAPI’s narrative has been a little more unwieldy, and that assessment is probably being generous. The trouble with long wars is that the truth, sometimes initially covered, tends to slip out. So it has been with the PAPI narrative: a collection of half-truths, bluff, and blunder.

This whole campaign should have been over within three months. Indeed, PAPI leadership was very confident in the early part of the war, for the expectation was that the Imperium would run, pick up their structures, bail on Delve, flee to the safety of lowsec or even highsec. After all, that’s what some PAPI members have done when faced with similar existential crises: they have picked up and fled.

Extermination? Fortizars? Too Large? Toxicity?

But as the war slowly progressed, the PAPI narrative came increasingly into question. How could extermination be accomplished? Were 40 faction fortizars really so important to PanDaFam that they were willing to throw away many more titans in M2 just to destroy them? Was the “too large, too powerful” Imperium really more of a threat to the game than the super large blue donut that PAPI has become? A questioning pilot, even a PAPI member, can easily see through the veneer of shoddy rhetoric.

The largest blue donut in history was being formed and the main beneficiary was PanDaFam. Initially, this claim was denied with great fervor. But after a year of PAPI existing and with their rental plans very public, you have to wonder at what point PAPI becomes an official coalition. It has existed a year, 5.5% of the entire existence of this game, and it could be argued that a key component of PAPI has existed since before the Casino War in the form of PanFam.

If the war continues another year, which some in PAPI have predicted, PAPI would have controlled virtually all of nullsec for over 10% of the lifespan of EVE. Of course, these concerns are swept under the rug by PAPI leaders, even while they describe the future in terms of “wardens” and “containment” and “equilibrium.” And the rationale is still that defeating the Imperium, creating the blue donut, eliminating small groups like Toilet Paper and Volta, is all good for the game.

Townhalls and censorship to control the narrative

Speaking of hiding things away, the PAPI narratives have seen further setbacks. Some in PAPI now claim that the whole war was just for “good fights” and not to “exterminate” anyone. In fact, the PAPI narratives have still yet to really be defined. The closest we have at this time can be seen via the Legacy and Pandemic Horde Townhalls. Meanwhile, on other community platforms, pro-PAPI supporters began heavy-handed measures to control the narrative. To post a picture or comment about the “PAPI blue donut” would result in being banned by over-zealous mods.

Thankfully, this issue was addressed by the moderators of the r/eve subreddit, changing the way they worked. Other platforms were more draconian in their approach. They simply banned people that were even suspected of being an Imperium member. Contrast this to INN, where PAPI members publish articles and work on the creative and editorial staffs.

Some pro-PAPI supporters were even going so far as to call members of the Imperium a group of right wing government sponsored terrorists. In true PAPI fashion, they also claimed that they were the good guys while banning people and attempting to get CCP and Twitch to ban INN. When people make such statements and perform such actions over a video game, then I really do wonder what the world has come to.

PAPI leadership has also taken to revising history in some rather significant ways. For instance, PanFam only “really” came into existence in 2018, according to Pandemic Horde leader Gobbins. Which makes you wonder why this article was written in March 2017. Additionally, Gobbins wants to portray the Imperium as being allied with both Legacy and Guardians of the Galaxy, which is fantasy. In fact, in a complete disregard to history, Gobbins tries to suggest that for years Imperium has ravaged and controlled vast swathes of nullsec.

Gobbins has also taken the unusual step of taking credit for CCP’s “Scarcity” campaign. It is through his influence that Scarcity was implemented, Gobbins says, whereas Imperium’s Brisc Rubal and others fought against it. He was also quick to note how advantageous the current landscape of nullsec is to PanDaFam. Winter Coalition have replaced former “valued allies” GotG within the PanFam diplomatic triumvirate, with FIRE taking up their old role as rental agents.

Subcaps for 1DQ? And I’ve got some swamp land for sale…

One of the most damning things to come from the PAPI leadership is the revelation that there is still no plan as to how to attack 1DQ. How is it possible that after one year of war they have no plan to attack the very thing they defined as a war objective?

The narrative within Legacy is even worse. Once one leader stated that there is a plan to take 1DQ and that it is well thought out. Two weeks later the other leader of the Legacy campaign said there is no plan. You just cannot make this stuff up. This incoherence is having an impact on attendance from Legacy members.

Welcome to the New Normal

The Imperium is still resolute in remaining in 1DQ. Not because they want to or even have to. They choose to and will only leave on their terms. They will not be forced to lowsec again, as they were during the Casino War. The sentiment of Imperium has been consistent week after week on the “fireside chats” The Mittani likes to have. The fact that the Imperium still retains a complete constellation in Delve after a full year of war – and against such odds – is amazing. Both The Mittani and the line members of Imperium know this and you can hear as much in one of the latest Imperium Fireside Chats. This is not the sound of the defeated.

Options for the forces of the Imperium are still very limited. But members are still engaged and everything is set for “the big one in 1DQ” should that ever happen. Meanwhile, Imperium members are still able to make ISK and entertain themselves quite readily. All the PAPI talk of “sieges,” “containment,” and “blockades” is foolish hyperbole that is dispelled by one glance at Dotlan.

Does “equilibrium” differ from Serenity?

Gobbins declaration of being more than happy with the current state of nullsec is the most telling for PAPI. In the most recent Pandemic Horde Townhall, Gobbins advised that even if PH were to call an end to the war, there would be no one else they could attack. Gobbins is not interested in attacking the likes of VOLTA or FIRE. Winter Coalition did not even get a mention for some reason. So, Gobbins then goes on to talk of “equilibrium” and how that the current state of nullsec is favourable to PH. It is favorable to PH. But is it favorable to the game as a whole? Take a look at the EVE Online Status Monitor and note that the number of concurrent users is in a freefall. Then explain again to me how this war has been good for the game as a whole.

When World War Bee was started by the forces of PAPI, it was with the intent of “saving the game.” One has to ask one year later: is PAPI closer, or further, from that goal?

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  • chimpy

    PAPI keep saying they only need to “win once” out of many many many attempts to win the war. Although from their recent inactions it seems they believe that they can “win once” even without an attempt. This “win once” mentality sounds pretty good on the surface. It makes a promise of unlimited attempts only one of which needs to succeeed. Flip a coin a million times and if any of them comes up heads you win. No heads, no sweat, flip another million, and again, and again, until you get the win. Sounds like a guarenteed win eh? Only there’s a flip side to that coin PAPI only needs to give up once for Goons to win. When you look at what’s been happening for the last two months it looks very much like PAPI has given up. It’s already started. It’s not an instantaneous flip like a light switch, it’s a process, and the process has begun. An inexorable landslide of morale and interest, one year of trench warfare in space. We’ve all seem the Hitler bunker memes. A defeated leader trying to avoid defeat by moving imaginary armies that no longer exist. At Stalingrad Hitler ordered Von Paulus and the 6th army to fight to the last man. Von Paulus wasn’t prepared to throw the lives of his troops away and surrendered. In Eve every single pilot gets to decide when they’ve had enough. That process is already in progress in PAPI. Despite a 3 to 1 advantage many have already given up. Numbers are declining, support is declining, morale is declining, what leadership there was declined long ago.
    And what legacy will this war leave? That despite eclipsing Serenity in painting the entire map blue, Goons still couldn’t be defeated. They refused to bow, and refused to crumble under overwhelming pressure.Not an attractive target for future wars. Reputationally the Goons will do very well out of this war. And when the history books get written what will they say? Will they ask what could PAPI have done differently to win the war? Will the answer be better leadership? There is one thing we do know will be written for sure. The history books will end the chapter dissecting why PAPI lost the war with a single line leading into the next chapter of aftermath and fallout of PAPI’s loss. “Test was next…..”

    July 5, 2021 at 9:57 AM
    • Seir Luciel chimpy

      Morale may be one factor of declining participation (though up to this point that decline hasn’t freed up Goons much. As Moomin conceded, “Options for the forces of the Imperium are still very limited.) But it might not be the only factor.

      WWBII was also very much the covid war; people trapped inside with little else to do. Its summer now, many more people are vaccinated, and people are engaging more with real life. I remember reading a conversation with Gray and the chief editor of INN talking about how the war could end as soon as summer hit, because people would simply just stop playing eve to go outside. The idea was that, maybe, Goons just had to wait for summer.

      Summer is here, and their prediction was correct: participation is down. On a human level that’s probably a good thing; if you’ve been stuck playing video games all year you should go outside and take a break from EVE to do irl stuff. Besides, in a way the prediction wasn’t correct (its looking that way at least) WWBII will be waiting for you when you get back.

      July 5, 2021 at 2:43 PM
      • Novartis Seir Luciel

        “WWBII will be waiting for you when you get back.”

        So does that mean you are sure that the war will stretch for innumerable years before closing down? The blue donut will still persist long after?

        July 5, 2021 at 2:52 PM
        • Seir Luciel Novartis

          Rhetoric from PAPI leaders seems to be that they’re willing to fight as long as it takes.

          As Moomin said “Options for the forces of the Imperium are still very limited.” That’s a signal to press the advantage, not retreat from it. You’d do the same thing in our position; you certainly would if it were TEST.

          July 5, 2021 at 2:59 PM
          • Gray Doc Seir Luciel

            Incorrect and not supported by the history of Goons. Show me a time in Goon history that they “sat” on enemies for a year. Indeed, in the last major war before this one, Goons went back home after 6-8 weeks. They had the advantage, Seir, but they did NOT press it. So no, PAPI and Imperium do NOT function the same way.

            July 5, 2021 at 3:12 PM
          • Dripple Gray Doc

            Imperium was never in position where their options were either strangle the opponent or gate their cap fleet to sure death.
            If Imperium were on place where they had to choose, between those options, they would never take the gate

            July 5, 2021 at 9:58 PM
          • Jeet_Kundo Dripple

            I guess you missed glassing of Tribute, as a recent example.

            July 6, 2021 at 4:21 AM
          • Malcanis Dripple

            “Imperium was never in position where their options were either strangle the opponent or gate their cap fleet to sure death.”

            Agreed. Our FCs are rather better than that.

            July 13, 2021 at 7:50 AM
          • kwnyupstate . Seir Luciel

            Options being limited doesn’t mean PAPI has an advantage it just means that most Imperium are concentrated atm. I WISH PAPI would press the fights but they won’t/can’t.

            July 5, 2021 at 3:30 PM
          • Then why hasn’t goonswarm broken out or effectively counterattacked?

            July 5, 2021 at 4:52 PM
          • kwnyupstate . Noob

            Because unlike PAPI they are smart strategically.
            All the Imperium needs to do is exactly what they are doing now since PAPI is collapsing under its own weight as its line members increasingly see they will never achieve the goal of the war which was to defeat the Imperium. PAPI line members look at their leaders and all they hear is to train into new subcap doctrines which keep failing for months.

            July 5, 2021 at 5:00 PM
          • Gray Doc Noob

            They have. INIT has been especially effective. So, if your question was a real one, rather than a rhetorical “you’re mamma,” then read more about the war and you’ll find your answer.

            July 5, 2021 at 5:30 PM
          • Jeet_Kundo Noob

            Because counter-attack or “breaking out” is not our war objective. PAPI screwed up by giving us the laughably easiest objective there is: to keep 1DQ and not quit the game.

            July 5, 2021 at 8:01 PM
          • Dripple Jeet_Kundo

            Reason for the breakout, could be fir example
            “destroy evil blue donut/RMT empire and save EVE, as great protagonist you try to present Imperium.

            End the war.
            Sure you can try convince and make claim, that you are content living under PAPIs heel, long as you survive.

            July 5, 2021 at 9:25 PM
          • J Moravia Dripple

            Hahahaha is this clown serious? “90% of nullsec has formed a blue donut, and you’re obviously content because you’re not attacking while outnumbered 3:1.”

            This is what passes for critical thinking among PAPI apologists, people.

            July 5, 2021 at 9:42 PM
          • Dripple J Moravia

            PAPI still actively testing new doctrines and strangling Imperium, like it’s said before PAPI haven’t given up on 1DQ.
            Imperium is the one content on living in 1 constellation

            And.. 90%? Even if you count all NPC null/other shit wasteland, it’s hardly 90% of nullsec.

            July 5, 2021 at 9:51 PM
          • J Moravia Dripple

            I dunno man, we can quibble about the exact percentage if you really want to, but:

            July 5, 2021 at 9:55 PM
          • Dripple J Moravia

            Maybe should look the SOV map when the war started before YOU LOSERS LOST IT ALL!!!

            July 5, 2021 at 10:00 PM
          • Carvj94 Dripple

            Look at the sov map? Well according to the sov map a tiny dot on the map, the Imperium, has successfully survived for over a year against a group that well over ten times the space they did before the conflict started. So far PAPI are the clear losers in this conflict bud.

            July 6, 2021 at 2:23 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Dripple

            your post could be accurately summed up as verbal diarrhea

            July 6, 2021 at 2:48 AM
          • kwnyupstate . Dripple

            PAPI is failing month after month and can never defeat capital ships with subcaps. I guess testing is constantly failing.

            July 5, 2021 at 10:19 PM
          • Dripple kwnyupstate .

            And that’s why warI is shifting it’s focus to other ways of trying to contain, cause damage to enemy, disturbing ISK generation and other dickery.

            Full frontal assault, with caps or without them will be unlikely to succeed.

            July 5, 2021 at 10:30 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Dripple

            “And that’s why warI is shifting it’s focus to other ways of trying to contain, cause damage to enemy, disturbing ISK generation and other dickery”

            That’s true goons have found interesting ways to inflict massive monetary damage even while trapped.

            July 6, 2021 at 2:47 AM
          • Dripple Garreth Vlox

            Sure they have, all those Ansis can’t never be replaced.
            I wonder which have died more, goon KS or PAPI JB:s

            July 6, 2021 at 7:09 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Dripple

            I was referring to the loot pinata stations you keep losing and all the caps and supers your side has fed over the last 2 months. 200 billion in lost station loot is pretty much your leaders pissing your personal assets away.

            July 7, 2021 at 12:11 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Dripple

            “PAPI still actively testing new doctrines and strangling Imperium,”

            That is THE most spintastic way to address feeding blarpies and T3D’s to supers the game has ever seen.

            July 6, 2021 at 2:46 AM
          • Jeet_Kundo Dripple

            “Under PAPI’s heel,” sup 27 failed foothold attempts. If a single constellation can feed our alliance, is the blood price worth it to take dead space for reasons contrary to our war goal. Keep coping.

            July 6, 2021 at 4:17 AM
          • Carvj94 Noob

            They’ve broken out of the “containment” many times and have done quite a lot of damage. Like when they walked a bomber fleet a few jumps away and blew up a citadel uncontested live on Twitch. Then looted the wreckage for almost an hour. Live on Twitch.

            July 6, 2021 at 2:16 AM
          • Dripple Carvj94

            How killing some inactive dudes personal citadel has any effect on war?

            July 6, 2021 at 6:50 AM
          • Novartis Dripple

            by ‘giving’ the enemy assets and morale victory, while also sending message across: The siege isn’t fully working, they can breach it whenever they like to

            July 6, 2021 at 9:08 AM
          • Dripple Novartis

            Do you even understand how PAPI works? I’m sure there would been a response fleet if alliance/corporations attacked would have requested one, they didn’t.
            PAPI exists solely to destroy goons, nobody cares about some inactive guys personal astrahu

            Can you even imagine the amount of assets which were send to asset recovery or destroyed, when PAPI burned Fountain, PB, Delve or querious?
            Why your alliance didn’t care about those citadels? Hundreds of personal citadel burned without any resistance

            July 6, 2021 at 10:18 PM
          • Novartis Dripple

            1). We have different role. PAPI is the aggresor, imperium is the defender, and the defender is ready to lose everything to maintain their survival. NOT TO MAINTAIN THEIR STRUCTURE ALL ACROSS THEIR REGION. Does PAPI ready to all in? I guess not since they’re not ready to use caps anymore
            2). PAPI say this is a siege. This is a containment. WHY THE F*** THE ONE THEY SHOULD CONTAIN BROKE FREE AND DESTROY YOUR ASSETS ON THEIR TERM? This is not a siege if they can pull that. It’s just a joke, from your siege, your containment, from your assets
            3). As I said before, they do a stream on twitch, surely some of your member would watch it. Why they don’t report it? Why they don’t say a word about an uncontested structure bash at all(Hello 3:1 ratio? all tz round the clock siege?)? So you also don’t care to give your enemy a morale victory? Then there’s no why question anymore why PAPI line member keep falling down
            4). So PAPI exist solely to destroy goons. Why tf you hold back now? that’s just a constellation. Surely if you just exist to destroy goons, a capital stash to achieve destroying goons ain’t to many aight?(Hold up, does the stash even exist since the M2 SRP takes so long?)

            July 7, 2021 at 3:08 AM
          • Carvj94 Dripple

            How does hundreds of billions of lost ships hurt a faction?

            July 7, 2021 at 8:41 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Dripple

            because it dropped 200 billion in papi loot within jump range of your stager and you all just sat there like cucks to afraid to fight bombers over a loot field of your own shit…

            July 8, 2021 at 3:32 AM
          • J Moravia Seir Luciel

            “No, the blue donut isn’t real” because it’s temporary. Seir Luciel, 2 July
            The blue donut will exist “as long as it takes,” indefinitely. Seir Luciel, 5 July

            You spin me right round baby, right round, like a record baby. “No, really, the blue donut is temporary! It might take years, but it’s just temporary, really, I swear!”

            July 5, 2021 at 3:56 PM
          • Seir Luciel J Moravia

            I don’t think I ever said that second one.

            July 5, 2021 at 5:08 PM
          • J Moravia Seir Luciel

            Rhetoric from PAPI leaders seems to be that they’re willing to fight as long as it takes.

            “As long as it takes” were not your words specifically, but I’m struggling to see how you simply do not see a contradiction between you saying you think the donut is temporary and your leadership saying it’s indefinite.

            What happens when goons never leave the game?

            July 5, 2021 at 5:18 PM
          • Seir Luciel J Moravia

            If you want to make an argument that’s fine, but quote me correctly. That’s the bare minimum for an honest discussion.

            July 5, 2021 at 5:48 PM
          • J Moravia Seir Luciel

            And you addressing the questions in my post, rather than changing the topic, is the bare minimum for an honest discussion.

            You didn’t even protest the misquote and then answer the questions. You protested the misquote as a way to keep from answering the questions. And then you complained about dishonesty.

            Do you see no contradiction between your insistence that the blue donut is temporary (which was a direct quote from you) and your leadership insisting that it is indefinite?

            If the blue donut is temporary, but will last “as long as it takes,” what happens when goons never leave the game?

            July 5, 2021 at 6:01 PM
          • Seir Luciel J Moravia

            Do you know what indefinite means?

            July 5, 2021 at 6:06 PM
          • J Moravia Seir Luciel

            Come, Seir. You’re far too intelligent for this.

            If the blue donut will last indefinitely, “as long as it takes,” then what happens when goons never leave the game?

            It’s not a hard question but this is the third time you’ve dodged it, which I’ve noticed you love to do.

            July 5, 2021 at 6:08 PM
          • Seir Luciel J Moravia

            Here’s the irony J: the whole argument is a diversion. Goons want to argue semantics, the meaning of words. What’s the meaning of the blue donut, equilibrium, extermination, indefinite, “as long as it takes?” Constantly, PAPI has to try and correct misinterpretations, over and over. But its a trap (one I constantly fall into), a way to avoid talking about substantial things that Goons don’t want to discuss. One loses the moment you take the bait and enter the argument.

            Goons have held off the massive offensive so far, but have few options, aren’t reversing PAPI’s progress, and it doesn’t look like they are going to for some time. Goons are stuck. PAPI members are either chilling, enjoying summer irl, and experimenting with new doctrines that show some promise. Enough arguing semantics.

            July 5, 2021 at 6:13 PM
          • J Moravia Seir Luciel

            If you think this whole thing is about semantics then you have entirely missed the point in a way I didn’t think you were capable of.

            You say the blue donut is temporary, that it will end. Your leadership has given the condition under which it will end. I am asking you, for the fourth time: what happens if the condition is never met?

            July 5, 2021 at 6:16 PM
          • Novartis Seir Luciel

            You want them to lose, but from what your leader saying, they’re more interested in exterminating the goons/maintaining the blue donut status quo.

            Oh, and the last time I check, the leader of PAPI is the guys like Villy, PGL and Gobbins(and some other leader like from AoM, Winter Co, NC., etc), not Seir, and in PAPI it’s more like the leader that direct what is the war end goal, not the line member.

            July 6, 2021 at 4:12 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

            ” the whole argument is a diversion”

            This is true, you are desperately trying to avoid the real point here. By arguing about a misquote.

            July 8, 2021 at 3:19 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

            It means papi is never leaving t5zi because you don’t have the balls to jump the 1dq1 gate with caps.

            July 6, 2021 at 2:44 AM
          • Jeet_Kundo Seir Luciel

            It means, with the combined attitude and behavior of PAPI leadership regarding the issue, that it’s a cop out to dance around the fact that they may have very well an auxiliary war objective that they kept between themselves.

            Gobbins’ statements of equilibrium in EvE (a positive thing in a game about discourse in space, I’m sure) and how the current situation is best benefitting to PAPI by staying together, does not meld well with “indefinite”: it’s a half-truth to placate those within their org and whoever external to them that believes them – “If you can’t impress them with your intelligence, baffle them with your bullshit.” PAPI’s greatest threat is now themselves.

            July 6, 2021 at 4:14 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

            “The lady doth protest too much”. “as long as it takes” can be very fairly summarized as “indefinitely” given papi’s now 2 months plus of unwillingness to actually bring an end to this war.

            July 6, 2021 at 2:44 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

            I love how you interpret what other people “meant” all the time, but when someone does it to you, you starting crying about misquoting. He may have used a different word than you but the MEANING was the same, you just don’t that being pointed out.

            July 8, 2021 at 3:19 AM
          • Malcanis Seir Luciel

            Oh NOW you care about factual accuracy. What’s changed?

            July 13, 2021 at 7:56 AM
          • Seir Luciel J Moravia

            Are you going to admit you were wrong when it disbands?

            July 5, 2021 at 5:46 PM
          • J Moravia Seir Luciel

            Are you going to admit you were wrong when it disbands?

            There are one of three possible endings to this:
            1) the blue donut disbands because Goonswarm leaves the game. That would be pretty impressive, honestly, even if it’s the least likely of the three outcomes. Goons didn’t leave the game during the Casino War; there’s no reason to think they would now.
            2) the blue donut disbands without Goonswarm leaving the game, which would be a failure on the part of PAPI leadership who insisted they would fight “as long as it takes.” In that case, I would not apologize when the blue donut disbands, because I would be apologizing for Vily’s failure.
            3) the blue donut does not disband, and remains for as long as goons are in the game. Five years from now, Seir Luciel will still be in the INN comments insisting that the donut is “temporary” and asking me if I know what “indefinite” means.

            July 5, 2021 at 6:33 PM
          • Seir Luciel J Moravia

            I see; according to 2) Goons win either way. So long as we stay together we are actively being the blue donut forever. The moment we disband it’s due to our failed leadership. Got it.

            July 5, 2021 at 6:42 PM
          • J Moravia Seir Luciel

            The moment we disband it’s due to our failed leadership.

            I hope you don’t teach your rhetoric students to be this dishonest. If the donut disbands *after failing to meet its stated war goals* then that will be due to PAPI’s failed leadership. If it disbands after exterminating goons from the game, that won’t be the case.

            July 5, 2021 at 6:46 PM
          • Gray Doc J Moravia

            J, you are leaving out a possibility, creating an either/or. If PAPI fails to meet its war goals, it might have several causes that go beyond failed leadership. 1) Perhaps any leader would have failed because Goons are just that good or 2) RL societal issues that go beyond the confines of the game. I’m sure you know your EVE history enough to know that sometimes RL stuff interposes into the game and can turn stuff around within the game. So, while you are trying to trap Seir here, you can’t do it with this. Just too many variables to say “x” was the cause of the failure.

            July 5, 2021 at 10:35 PM
          • J Moravia Gray Doc

            I don’t think there’s an either/or in observing:
            1) Vily failed when he declared this (to an international gaming-and-tech website) to be a war of extermination.
            2) Vily, PGL, and Gobbins failed massively with their “anaconda strategy” that resulted in goons being compressed into a smaller and smaller (and thus more easily defensible) area.
            2a) Vily, PGL, and Gobbins failed by having no plan to take 1DQ after having compressed all of Goonswarm into it.

            There is, quite frankly, no outcome to this in which PAPI fails to meet its war goals and the blame CANNOT be laid squarely at the feet of the people who dreamed the blue donut into existence.

            July 5, 2021 at 10:59 PM
          • GuardianDevil Seir Luciel

            It took you long enough to finally understand it. Who am I kidding, you will always try to defend the actions of PAPI.

            To make it simpler for you think of it as a box match between a guy who is 150kg and a guy who is 50kg. If the big guy fails to knock out the small one in the first round (lets be generous, first 3), then he failed. Even if he wins he sucks dick like there is no tomorrow. And this war entered the 13rd round.

            We will laugh at PAPI for it’s incompetence and personally you for trying to defend this spectacular performance until there is a game called EVE Online. Well even after that.

            July 6, 2021 at 5:25 AM
          • How wouldn’t it be due to failed leadership? PAPI’s leaders set an unrealistic goal and can either achieve it (miraculously), or not. Not achieving the war goal, is called losing the war. They foolishly believed that war in eve can be decided simply by the rationale “N is my enemy, and if I’m N+1, I win”. The critical factor in attaining those numbers was the formation of their supercoalition- it is the backbone of their originally posited ‘strategy’,

            Through it’s disassembly- their forces scattered, their goals now unattainable by their own standard- care to explain how it could be anything but leadership throwing in the towel?

            July 18, 2021 at 7:06 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

            “Rhetoric from PAPI leaders seems to be that they’re willing to fight as long as it takes.”

            Gobbins has been looking for the door ever since he set the goal posts at causing damage to goon infrastructure months ago.

            July 6, 2021 at 2:41 AM
          • Novartis Seir Luciel

            The fact that your enemy said that it’s effective in limiting their movement, and saying that you need to press the advantage doesn’t equal to you are on the path of winning the war, not if you’re bleeding more firepower than your enemy. In the end, the war that PAPI envisioned, the way PAPI want to crush goons, is by the way of war, with stick and stones, with explosion and ‘isk war’, because for how long I’ve seen this war article, I’ve never heard a single word about how PAPI would also try to beat imperium strength with their own economy. There’s no word about how they would rework their logistic line, how they going to get more industry working than goons, NONE. You can’t fight an enemy without means to attack.

            Remember, at current status quo, you’re bleeding more manpower than goons do, and what will be your answer to my long ago question, what would happen once PAPI can’t maintain critical amount of member that would answer their rage ping? What would happen when they’re unable to muster enough grunt to headbutt goons when they do the ‘TEST is next’?

            You might say that for every single person goons had pissed, PAPI got +1 loyal member, but for everyday and everytime you failed to do any progress to bang the last constellation gate, that’s a n number of member losing interest in the war. What’s the line member goals in this war? To protect the way of pubbie? Then the easiest way for them, as the ‘casual’ player, is just quit. Stop being involved in the stupid war. Why? Because as what could be interpreted from your articles, the pubbie future you want to fight for is the future of where the lazy is entitled for the same fortune as the hardworker one. You want to win the game? Sure, the easiest way that everyone agree is quit playing eve(I’m not promoting it, but heck that’s what have been said for years. You only truly win when you quit eve).

            July 6, 2021 at 4:08 AM
          • Malcanis Seir Luciel

            But the Imperium didn’t do it in your position, as I so recently reminded you. I know you don’t really… *like* facts, but come on, even you can go back to 2018.

            July 13, 2021 at 7:49 AM
      • Gray Doc Seir Luciel

        Yeah, that’s one “good” thing about Serenity 2. You could come back in another year, even, and you won’t have missed much, right? I mean . . . right? Check back the summer of 2022. Maybe things will look different . . . or not.

        July 5, 2021 at 2:53 PM
        • J Moravia Gray Doc

          Update: things do indeed look different in the summer of 2022.

          (Hope you and Seir are both well.)

          May 10, 2022 at 8:08 PM
      • J Moravia Seir Luciel

        Participation is down more for PAPI than for the Imperium. That’s the variable we’re trying to address. It’s possible there’s an explanation that doesn’t involve PAPI’s morale plummeting – perhaps more of them have vibrant social lives whereas goons are basement-dwelling neckbeards – but it’s disingenuous at best and outright lying at worst to simply say “participation is down” as if you don’t know PAPI is more seriously affected.

        July 5, 2021 at 4:36 PM
        • Seir Luciel J Moravia

          The explanation is that PAPI doesn’t have to fight for survival in the same way The Imperium does.

          July 5, 2021 at 5:10 PM
          • J Moravia Seir Luciel

            If only there was a word that would describe an army’s desire to fight.

            July 5, 2021 at 5:15 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

            Test sure does…

            July 6, 2021 at 2:40 AM
      • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

        “WWBII was also very much the covid war; people trapped inside with little else to do.”

        I came back to eve solely because the goons asked me too, not because I was bored, there are plenty of other better developed games to spend time on, we came back to stick it to you and the other blue donut loving Kool-Aid chuggers.

        July 6, 2021 at 2:40 AM
      • Malcanis Seir Luciel

        The “Summer Lull” is an August thing, not a June thing. You know perfectly well that the ‘no one else to attack’ line is a significant factor driving this.

        July 13, 2021 at 7:46 AM
  • yogizh

    No not believing.

    New Eden is not theirs to take, no matter how many blues they make, not matter how many spergs they sperg. Masses were brainwashed for years about the bad man of Eve and lied about the elitist meta of renter empires. People are opening their eyes about the unique experience that New Eden provides and the ones with at least two braincells will see that the behaviour of our enemies is toxic to any fun content in nullsec.

    World where everyone is the same is not a world worth the effort. Stand up for your game, stand up for the diversity and fun. Real world sucks enough and I will rather burn in fire than allow New Eden to become the same contaminated planet of hate.

    July 5, 2021 at 10:41 AM
  • kwnyupstate .

    The longer the Imperium held out it was inevitable that PAPI numbers would decrease because the whole rest of the map doesn’t like an unnatural blue status where the only content is attacking a couple systems in Delve especially when their leadership doesn’t really want to do even that anymore.
    Eventually PAPI won’t be able to stand being blue to each other and spending months more failing to attack the Imperium and will be forced to disband.
    The equilibrium is PAPI trying to gaslight their members into accepting the new normal of not defeating the Imperium while forgetting about making any meaningful progress in reducing their titan and supercarrier strength or taking 1DQ which were undeniably the war goals at the start.
    Sleeping with the enemy is the story of PAPI for a year now and all they got out of it was destroying a bunch of structures.

    July 5, 2021 at 2:06 PM
  • Seir Luciel

    “Some pro-PAPI supporters were even going so far as to call members of the Imperium a group of right wing government sponsored terrorists.”

    You should correct this misstatement, but otherwise a pretty well written view of the war from Goons’ perspective so far.

    July 5, 2021 at 2:26 PM
    • Guilford Australis Seir Luciel

      Certain PAPI members went even further than that, comparing The Imperium to North Korea for our supposedly slavish devotion to propaganda. I’ll go ahead and observe that in hindsight that view seems extremely ironic and lacking in self-awareness.

      July 5, 2021 at 2:51 PM
      • Seir Luciel Guilford Australis

        It isn’t ‘supposed’ from our perspective.

        July 5, 2021 at 2:52 PM
        • chimpy Seir Luciel

          I find the propaganda one of the most interesting parts of Eve. Eve is famous for the meta and Eve is one of those things that people get so emotional about because they care so much. There’s no propaganda in a space no ones cares about. The tribalism is fiercer in Eve than in any other MMO game I’ve seen and I’ve played a lot of them. There’s a few truths to propaganda.
          1 The side you belong to is away telling the truth whilst the enemy is always just spouting propaganda.
          2 The best propaganda is made from truth, a lie is easy to expose. A hard cold fact of reality expertly linked to negative consequence is a lot more difficult to deal with because deep down you know it’s based on truth.
          3 Propaganda takes it’s toll over the long term. It wears people down, it saps their will, to continue, to fight, it weighs ever heavier the longer you carry it.
          That the Imperium is slick at propaganda does not mean PAPI doesn’t attempt their own propaganda, it just means they aren’t as good at it. The “cult” of Goons is evidence of the weight of Goon propaganda that PAPI members carry around daily. It just dosn’t stop and they are complaining about the burden. Yeah Goons use propaganda, they use it very effectively, How effectively? Look around you at everyone complaining about the Goons. That effectively! They are under your skin, in your heads, and under your beds.

          July 5, 2021 at 3:18 PM
          • Seir Luciel chimpy

            I completely agree with you. I don’t think anyone does propaganda better than Goons, honestly. They’ve made it an art, and their members spam every platform available, parroting the jingoistic phrases, and (maddeningly) convincing themselves as much as their enemies of the their crafted narrative.

            So when someone comes along and points something out that Goons missed, or tells a different story, do Goons reject the alternative position because they actually believe its wrong/bad thinking, or because the ruse is always on, the mask of tribalism always worn: “Oh no; someone’s on to us. Quick! Lay it on thicker; everybody now!”

            July 5, 2021 at 3:39 PM
          • chimpy Seir Luciel

            I think the answer to your question is paradoxically both. If propaganda is a war of words then you would be foolish to give up when you are ahead. Part of it is just LARPIng. The Goons are about fun and community. If an endless torrent of effective propaganda upsets PAPI and Goons get to laugh at the upset then they just killed two birds with one stone. Your moral is decreased and they get a good laugh out of it. Don’t forget what Mittens keeps saying; the more he does something and people complain about it the more he gonna do it. Every time PAPI complain about Goon propaganda you are effectively telling the Goons “The Goon propganda is working great! Do more of it!” It’s part of the ongoing grinding down of the enemy’s spirit process. When they complain about it, that means it’s working great.

            July 5, 2021 at 4:54 PM
          • Seir Luciel chimpy

            Agreed; however, at what point is upsetting PAPI just increasing their impetus to continue the war? This was one of my points in an article I wrote way long ago, about the double edged sword of rhetoric. Taunting your enemy can break their spirit, but also has the potential to toss more wood into their furnace of grr gon rage, which keeps a lot of people fighting.

            July 5, 2021 at 5:04 PM
          • chimpy Seir Luciel

            I agree “war of extermination” certainly had an effect opposite to the one I asume it was meant to have. That’s become a rallying cry for the Goons not a source of demoralization.

            July 5, 2021 at 5:23 PM
          • Dripple chimpy

            The claim which was presented is that Propaganda which is manufactured by Imperium, might be in fact strengthening PAPIs resolve.

            I personally are pumped up after watching Metashow where Mittani makes he’s Vince act and shouts out insults while he’s poodle agrees and strokes he’s…..

            It reminds me why i want to shove goons to NPC space where their desperate “we are still logging in, war is not over” could go on forever.

            July 5, 2021 at 10:21 PM
          • chimpy Dripple

            OK lets address that claim then. PAPI is huge, the members of PAPI outnumbered the Imperium by 3 to 1, at least at the start of the war they did. Early in the war PAPI frontline troops vastly outnumbered Imperium forces in any engagement. But that was a year ago. What’s it like now? Front line numbers are roughly similar. The Imperium has a strategy for crux engagements to pre load the battlefield to the point of stressing the server and guaranteed themselves tidi advatage see M2- part 2. PAPI numbers and commitment are declining. PAPI has to keep adjusting their victory conditions downwards continually to try and pacify PAPI line members expectations. Overall the evidence speaks for itself, PAPI has slowed right down and is less and less able to muster forces. That you are pumped is great, but you are not all of PAPI. I don’t doubt there’s a few others in PAPI who are just as pumped as you. But for the big picture we can’t just look at a few cherry picked examples, and it’s a poor way for you to try and make a point. The overall picture counts more than what’s going on in your head sorry. And that overall picture doesn’t look good for PAPI. So yes for a few individuals Goon propaganda may be stoking them up, but looking at the big picture, PAPI front line numbers, PAPI’s inaction, PAPI moving from “exterminate” to “burn 1DQ” to “we have goons contained” to “won’t someone rid me of these troublsome Goons?” to “fuck off I’ve got my head in the sand and I’m not coming out”. It’s a slow and steady downwards slide from PAPI leadership. I mean they hired mercenaries for god’s sake, they have the entire map blue and they still need help. PAPI has ground to a halt and is now sliding backwards. They took all the low hanging fruit but now it’s come to crunch time they are stuck in trench warfare. From that point of view this one year old war has only just started. PAPI’s pilots are voting with their feet. None of this is evidence that you being stoked by Goon propaganda is a shared majority view of PAPi pilots, in fact it’s the exact opposite.

            July 6, 2021 at 8:10 AM
    • Jeet_Kundo Seir Luciel

      There’s nothing that needs correcting, it was stated outright and memory-holing it doesn’t strike it from history.

      July 5, 2021 at 3:06 PM
      • Moomin Amatin Jeet_Kundo

        If Seir can counter what was said then they are welcome to do so. But they may have a bit of a hard time given some of what they have said.

        July 5, 2021 at 5:57 PM
        • Jeet_Kundo Moomin Amatin

          He can’t, which is why he offered no correction following his suggestion.

          July 5, 2021 at 7:53 PM
    • Dirk Stetille Seir Luciel

      This is where I point out that not even a month ago, Matterall (of TiS fame, and very much a pro-PAPI supporter) likened the Imperium and it’s members to QAnon. We do not forget, and we do not forgive.

      July 5, 2021 at 4:56 PM
      • chimpy Dirk Stetille

        Matterall has gone off the deep end. He’s wrecked the reputation of everything he worked so hard to build up in the first place. There were others involved in the building up of that reputation and he didn’t give two hoots about throwing the whole lot into a dumpster fire which he keeps kindling. I feel bad for everyone else whose work has been wrecked and I sort of feel bad for Matterall too who clearly needs some professional help. At least we have Frost Ees OP and her excellent neutral point of view war reports.

        July 5, 2021 at 5:30 PM
        • Jeet_Kundo chimpy

          It’s a fine line that needs walking. When a game becomes part of your life, the person risks not separating the game from reality. The best help he can get is a vacation from it all until he can legitimately unplug.

          July 5, 2021 at 7:57 PM
          • chimpy Jeet_Kundo

            Yeah reminds me of the saying when you stare into the abyss the abyss stares back into you. Matterall has formed very rigid inflexible ideas about what’s morally right within Eve, and the Goons are very much on his “bad” list. He is convinced that his ideas of what’s right and wrong are absolutely correct and if they were to be enforced Eve would be a better place. His problem is he’s trying to enforce real world moral judgments onto a space game about blowing each other up. I think he’s having difficulty distinguishing between real life and a fun sandbox game. The border between the two has probably dissolved in his brain and it’s just one big giant system, and it’s stressing his brain out.

            July 5, 2021 at 8:43 PM
    • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

      As many others have pointed out, no correction is needed.

      Having a bit of fun with Mittens lifting the M2 hellcamp a couple of days early is true. But why not given that the Imperium is still in 1DQ after a year? PAPI has done a lot of damage of that there is no dispute. PAPI have had successes but this war really should have taken 3 months tops. So I will happily admit that I presented the lifting of the M2 hellcamp in a certain light. You are also welcome to write an article about the strategic genious that was the breaking of the M2 hellcamp if you like. In fact thinking about it now why didn’t you? 😉

      July 5, 2021 at 6:16 PM
    • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

      “You should correct this misstatement”

      Still waiting on a response to dirk who pointed out there was no misstatement made.

      July 6, 2021 at 2:49 AM
  • Jeet_Kundo

    It was never about “saving the game,” it was about “saving their game” – they just misplaced a few letters.

    July 5, 2021 at 3:05 PM
  • Noob

    Trying to blame PAPI for the state of the game as if Goons had nothing at all to do with it is abjectly asinine.

    July 5, 2021 at 4:14 PM
    • kwnyupstate . Noob

      Not when PAPI blued almost the entire map

      July 5, 2021 at 5:03 PM
    • J Moravia Noob

      I’d like a longer explanation of this statement. Since 2016, goons have been pretty content to hang out in the southwest, occupying fewer regions than PanFam, Winter, or Legacy, and for the most part only leaving to glass Tribute as retribution for the Casino War. If by “state of the game” you mean the existence of a blue donut, you’re factually mistaken; a two-month alliance with Legacy is the closest the Imperium came to that.

      July 5, 2021 at 5:44 PM
    • Moomin Amatin Noob

      PAPI leadership are stating clearly that the current state is very good for them and that they campaigned via the CSM for the “Scarcity” changes as per the PH Townhalls. Why would anyone need to “try and blame” PAPI when they are saying that they are responsible?

      July 5, 2021 at 5:55 PM
  • CK

    At this point all I see is a stalemate; neither side has a reason to admit defeat and neither side has a way to force defeat on their opponent. The only thing likely to be defeated in this scenario is Eve itself. 1DQ is the western front in 1917. It is where subs will go to die for trading inches of ground.

    Eventually CCP is going to either have to pick a loser, let the game suffer through non-intervention, or come up with a truly creative way to end the stalemate where all parties involved feel they were treated fairly. My bet is the first option.

    July 6, 2021 at 11:31 AM
    • Novartis CK

      IMO I think before CCP need to make that decision one of the side will have their participation number fall below critical numbers and would create a quick sweep out, but that’s just my personal opinion tho

      July 6, 2021 at 12:27 PM
    • Guilford Australis CK

      Sad but true. Gobbins has said PanFam won’t leave Delve ever because “the equilibrium” would shift against his alliance. They’re going to sit on top of The Imperium like a fat kid because it’s all they can do at this point. Noraus has said PAPI “is going to be around a lot longer than people think.”

      One coalition currently controls between 70% and 90% of sov nullsec. CCP, PAPI, and The Imperium all know it’s terrible for the game, but only one of those parties refuses to acknowledge it is smothering nullsec to death. It’s only a matter of time before CCP starts shaking up mechanics to force some motion in nullsec.

      July 6, 2021 at 3:39 PM
  • Dripple

    Strangling could also mean limiting others options, currently Imperium is in place where their options are 1. adapt to living in 1 constellation 2. Launch a counter-offensive

    Imperium old strategy of
    “Panfam must leave, they must” is hardly an option anymore, they made it sure in Metashow

    July 6, 2021 at 10:03 PM
    • Garreth Vlox Dripple

      “”Panfam must leave, they must” is hardly an option anymore, they made it sure in Metashow”

      But panfam and tapi are leaving, tapi more so, but both groups pilots are slowly but surely deciding they don’t want to log into the blue donut simulator their idiot leaders have created anymore.

      July 8, 2021 at 3:17 AM