The Point of No Return

2021-02-08

After what has happened to Goons in WWB, I’m really worked up. I want vengeance. It is amazing how much emotion can get stirred up when, after all, this is only a game. However, we invest so much of our time and effort into the game that it becomes much more than just a game. It becomes a part of our lives and therefore, we don’t want our time to have been wasted. We want things to matter. Only in EVE have people made memorials for players that have passed away and for epic battles that have transpired. People who have never played EVE may not understand it, but those who play it get it.

The Certainty of Retribution

So, I want vengeance. PAPI created the big blue donut, with Vily and PGL talking extermination with heightened rhetoric about sitting on our collective Goon faces, but someday this war as we know it will be over, one way or another. I have 100% confidence that, even if Goons are crushed and defeated and homeless (as they were in the Casino War), they will be back after a time, a powerful group to be reckoned with. The outcome of the war has no bearing on whether Goons will once again be a powerful group. The outcome only affects the timeline, not the certainty, of retribution.

And so, I want vengeance. I think back on 2018, when Goons were riding a wave of success. We glassed areas in the north. We killed three Keepstars in one night (I was in one of those fleets), and when GOTG sued for peace, I was really upset. I railed. I thought it was a huge mistake to stop the war and go back to Delve and let our enemies alone, just when we had them on the ropes. Yes, Goons got 40 fortizars, but a negotiated peace wasn’t what I wanted at the time. I complained to a lot of people about why we were accepting peace at such a price.

After my conversations with fellow Goons, I realized I was being quite shortsighted, in part because I hadn’t played EVE for very long – and understanding EVE culture takes a very long time indeed. These fellow Goons explained to me that it was important, for the good of the game as a whole, to call a halt to the war. To completely wipe out a large opposing group would threaten the viability of the game itself. We wanted to win, sure, but we didn’t want the opposition to rage quit, either. We had to win without crushing groups so badly that people just threw up their hands, threw down their keyboards, and decided to do something else instead.

Digging Two Graves

I pondered that for a long time. Complete vengeance, in the sense of wiping out enemies, causing humiliation and despair, was not a reasonable goal for this game, since the game’s viability is dependent on player participation. I had to rethink my desire for vengeance in 2018 and accept that in backing away from the war with a negotiated peace, cooler heads had prevailed.  “If you seek revenge, you should dig two graves.”

Now, I look at what’s happening to Goons and I see our past adversaries (including those we were fighting in 2018) pounding our space and bragging on reddit (at least until M2) and I know that these are groups we could have wiped out a couple of years ago. I want to holler at them: “You are only here at all because we let you guys off the hook! Why are you thinking you’re hot stuff now? Do you have any collective memories at all?” I read Gobbins utterances about win conditions and that PH wants to make sure Goons pay a blood price for the 40 fortizars we settled for in 2018 and I just cringe. We could have wiped out far more than the value of 40 fortizars. The 40 forts were a cheap settlement, and for that act of diplomacy, PH is taking this so-called revenge, wiping Fountain, Querious, Period Basis, and parts of Delve itself? And you think that now makes us equal again, that the teeter-totter of vengeance has once again been leveled? Think again.

No Negotiated Settlement

I am so pleased to see The Mittani say that in this war, there will be no negotiated settlement. Good. We made a mistake in 2018 in negotiating when we were ahead. We would be making a mistake in negotiating now when we’re behind, but rapidly gaining. And if this worm completely turns, if PAPI breaks into PH, NC, FRT, TEST, AoM, Brave, etc., and if Goons still have the ability to wage war, I look forward to a visitation upon TEST’s home space and subjecting them to war unrestrained by diplomacy or gaming etiquette. If 5,000 Goons could do a simultaneous tea-bag, I’d want to see it in TEST’s home system as their home KS lights up the dark of space like Katie Perry’s “Firework” at the American inauguration.

So, it’s really a good thing I’m an editor and writer, not a diplomat or in a position of power. Because what I want would be bad for EVE as a whole, but right now I don’t care. I want vengeance.

Looking Good, Furiosa

The danger in any war like WWB is that you can push people beyond the point where cooler heads will prevail. Sometimes, people can get so emotionally invested, they will take vengeance that is against their own best interests. Sometimes, people will be tempted to push the nuke button, even though they know retaliation means the end of the entire world as we know it. Welcome, Mad Max. Looking good, Furiosa.

That point of no return may actually now be in the rear view mirror and perhaps we are beyond the point where cooler heads can prevail. We may have reached a tipping point where, in two years, people will have quit the game en masse, because some of the players didn’t have any sense of self-restraint when it came to war and its aftermath. Imagine in 2023: You have killed all your EVE enemies and mining and ratting are too boring for words. Gonna enjoy reading INN when the only stories are about the MER?

Again, it may be too late. This war has gone on a really long time and has been marked by a lot of incredibly irritating hurfing. Further, there is no end in sight. The Imperium have limited offensive capabilities, so I certainly don’t see some Goon breakout moment turning the tide and overwhelming all PAPI. Similarly, Goons’ defensive position is so entrenched, and the lesson of early-packing the M2 grid is so clearly in Goon memory, that I don’t see PAPI over-running Goons any time soon. The hellcamp isn’t going away and Goons will be content to sit there almost forever. And the longer the war continues, the more likely it is that Goons will become angry beyond reason and beyond the counsel of cooler heads (if there are any left), seeking vengeance, sooner or later, at any cost, even at the cost of destroying the game itself.

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Comments

  • kwnyupstate .

    As if kicking a beehive is ever a good idea.

    February 8, 2021 at 7:06 AM
  • Carvj94

    The popular narrative is that goons are a terrible Plague on EVE because they exploit the little guy and ruin things for everyone. Yet they have stuck to a relatively tiny area of null for years and have almost entirely targeted larger established groups when taking space. Meanwhile PAPI and friends form giant rental empire where they burn smaller alliances to the ground and take their space so they can rent it back to em at prices that prevent almost all growth. The ones that do manage to grow enough to pay their rent easily are often forced to either join the main alliance or become a usual target for roaming fleets they can’t fight and get no assistance from their landlord. Not saying that goons are helping the little guy, they definitely aren’t, but they aren’t actively trying to assimilate or kill the little guy like PAPI.

    February 8, 2021 at 7:38 AM
    • kwnyupstate . Carvj94

      PAPI are just a bunch of people who hate each other trying to brand a much better group as a bad guy. What’s the reason you see alliances leaving PAPI and joining goons or just leaving PAPI and do not see the opposite?

      February 8, 2021 at 5:24 PM
    • Merry Christmas Mr Cricket Carvj94

      These are just Goon talking points and propaganda.

      February 27, 2021 at 7:04 PM
      • Oh yea? So PAPI isn’t a rental empire?

        February 27, 2021 at 7:42 PM
        • Merry Christmas Mr Cricket Carvj94

          Because Goons didn’t have their own rental ponzi scheme.

          February 28, 2021 at 5:27 PM
          • I must have missed the rental Delve systems that PAPI liberated.

            February 28, 2021 at 7:58 PM
          • Merry Christmas Mr Cricket Carvj94

            You must be new to the game.

            March 6, 2021 at 4:01 AM
          • So PAPI rents little to no space and Goons have a big rental empire? Come on dude. At least try to make up something believable. PAPI members are literally proud that they run rental empires.

            March 6, 2021 at 4:16 AM
          • William Doe Carvj94

            Take it easy on the guy, he must be blind or just supremely ignorant. Doesn’t even know what PanFam and FRT got going on. Or maybe it’s just some low IQ troll projecting and failing miserably at it.

            March 6, 2021 at 10:23 AM
  • Simon Chui

    The way things are going, Legacy might fall apart completely before Goons have a chance at vengeance.

    February 8, 2021 at 9:44 AM
    • Moomin Amatin Simon Chui

      TAPI have shown their true colours now in spades. Given the conduct of both their leadership and members I would be surprised that any nullsec entity would seriously consider anything coming from TAPI in the future. TAPI’s word has been shown to be worthless.

      Just check the history for The Legacy to see how much they have helped the small guy. The reality is that they will happily try to poach members from “valued allies” while ensuring they hold the purse strings. At least they have revealed their true intentions, “from Cache to Fountain”. Noraus is also on about PAPI is going to be a thing for a lot longer than people think.

      I love this war. Also good spot if you saw this from the recent slopes developing on Dotlan.

      February 8, 2021 at 2:12 PM
      • Simon Chui Moomin Amatin

        I’m sure Noraus wants the blue donut to last a very long time. If the rest of PAPI play along, then Frat will definitely be the biggest winners of this war, spending so little and gaining so much.

        February 8, 2021 at 9:37 PM
        • Moomin Amatin Simon Chui

          It was interesting to hear the interview with Noraus as it was plain to see his manipulation of his host and the narratives of Eve.

          February 9, 2021 at 3:42 AM
        • Garreth Vlox Simon Chui

          Noraus isn’t an idiot. He knows the longer he can keep vily, progod, vince, and gobbins busy with delve and being blue with him the longer he has to built his own coalition sized fleet. Frat is the only group that is going to come out of this war stronger than when they went in. The fact that papi doesn’t realize they are growing a monster in their own backyard as they continue to push this war forward while frat quitely pivots north and leaves papi to keep buring resources burning our assets is hysterical.

          February 10, 2021 at 9:03 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Garreth Vlox

            Look at where AoM are on the map. With recent changes in the Legacy strategy AoM are starting to look like they are out of reach from help. I wonder if Frat will see this as an opening?

            February 11, 2021 at 3:38 AM
      • Carvj94 Moomin Amatin

        Hopefully goons go on the offensive once PAPI’s cash reserves dry up from losing titans and wipe out their space. The only way to make sure this game survives long term is to give smaller groups the chance to build up assets and go on roams. That’ll only happen if these rental empires stop taking over space they don’t even want to use and screwing over every small/medium group that wants to live in null by taking billions in rent every week. The more independent sov holders the better.

        February 9, 2021 at 6:20 AM
      • Word: the levels of “I know you are but what am I!?” in their narratives are perhaps only rivaled by those of contemporary US Republican politics.

        February 9, 2021 at 6:28 AM
    • Garreth Vlox Simon Chui

      Even if they do fall apart as a coalition, both brave and test will survive as alliances and that is where the vengeance will come. Test will get the kind of alliance destroying grind war they spoke of when they started this fight, but it will be them being ground down to nothing in the end.

      February 10, 2021 at 9:00 PM
      • Moomin Amatin Garreth Vlox

        Would you ever have a diplomatic agreement with TAPI ever again and have faith in them not breaking it?

        February 11, 2021 at 3:39 AM
        • Garreth Vlox Moomin Amatin

          as a goon, no, as anyone else based on their recent actions? Maybe.

          February 11, 2021 at 5:01 AM
  • Guilford Australis

    I agree with the general sentiment. WWB is nothing like the Casino War. In 2016, we were crushed quickly and decisively, followed into our lowsec exile, and camped there until PanFam decided we were finished and farked off back to where they came from. That ain’t happening here. We’re not leaving Delve.

    And our intractability is exactly why PAPI can’t figure out what their goals are for the war. They thought we’d just run away when faced by 3:1 odds. We didn’t. Gobbins said months ago that Pandemic Horde would be done once they’d sieged 1DQ. Gobbins and Horde have lived one stargate away from 1DQ for three months and done nothing to demonstrate they actually plan to do that. TEST has backed off from “This is a war of extermination to drive the evil Goons out of EVE” to “If, uh… uh… um… you know… uh… hypothetically… uh… if we can kick Goons out of Delve…”.

    These people are pathologically unserious and are paying a massive price to continue an interminable war with no realistic victory conditions.

    February 8, 2021 at 1:36 PM
    • PAPI still claims to be winning only because Imperium hasn’t forced them out of the area and started a counterattack. They’re so full of s#*t and are too unorganized to actually have an agreed upon goal so leadership is setting baby step goals. That they of course loudly celebrate every other month when they hit a goal. Took an Ihub? Doesn’t really help them but they’re literally acting like it was a major strategic blow on their reddit.

      February 9, 2021 at 6:07 AM
  • chimpy

    Heros need the balance of villains to oppose. Goons fit this role perfectly, but the Goons also bring so much more. Events like Burn Jita where for one weekend a year they reach out and touch the lives of so many more residents of New Eden. The game needs the interest that groups like Goons bring to the stories being forged in the crucibles of Eve. Without this necessary chaos comes the stultifying boredom of the blue doughnut. Ask Serenity just how much fun it is to “win” Eve. It is astounding that Fraternity, refugees from Serenity, are now engaged in turning Tranquility into the very problem they tried to leave behind. It’s fine to hate Goons, they make great villains led by the most entertaining figurehead in the history of villains. But a war of extermination against them displays a very shallow understanding of what makes the stories Eve such a rich tapestry of sharp and vibrant colour. Eve would become a monochrome story with the loss of Goons. The Chinese have a curse, “be careful what you wish for… it may just come true…”

    February 8, 2021 at 1:40 PM
  • Moomin Amatin

    Welcome Goon to your first Hell-war.

    February 8, 2021 at 1:54 PM
  • Michael Porter

    GOOOOOONS!!! I wish you good fortune in the wars to come…

    February 8, 2021 at 5:08 PM
  • Dripple

    Im a old goon member, well I started in GENTZ and ended up in goons, these days I fight in TEST. Reason being is that I Wish the old days when “mega” alliances weren’t this huge could come back and everyone could be free and happy again!

    Things what I find curious on this war are following.

    Some reason members of Imperium have become sensitive and thin skinned to local chat? I don’t even remember time when local chat was a real thing or people actually hurt their feelings on shit talking.

    War narratives ACTUALLY matter?
    I remember Mittani holding war speeches where there were all kind of talk about ruining others games and skull fucking people (might even been about quitting the game, but I only have vague memory of such thing”
    Why this “extermination” is such a huge deal? if I understand correctly it was just talk to gaming media to promote the war.
    I never toke it seriously and I feel it was good to give done drama and context to media

    Since I started the game war was something everyone wanted and there was almost like unwritten rule that every 2 years there was going to be bigger war where shit got burned down. This time everyone is flaming and frothing about it?

    Then lastly, the big one… the unrelenting shit talk especially in INN about Vily and Progodlegend. I have seen both sides of the isle, in victories and defeats (I was there when we got evicted from Deklein) Vily and progod are equally valuable to EVE community than Asher, Mittani, Jay (gay for Jay), Greth and other nerds which bring content to EVE.
    If I had to choose I would follow Vily rather than Mittani, atleast Vily log into game and is FC:ing and making decisions in battles.

    My opinion is that I hope we burn so much stuff down on both sides, that mixed with new CCP scarcity updates, this game gets enough shake that we don’t return to same old cycle where we have been last 7~8 years

    February 8, 2021 at 10:20 PM
    • Seir Luciel Dripple

      You’ve touched on something I have mentioned in previous articles of mine: The Imperium has latched onto the rhetoric of PAPI in a way that is ironic coming from the group who had the slogan “We aren’t here to ruin the game, just your game.”

      However I find your last statement most intriguing, and most in line with my own position: “My opinion is that I hope we burn so much stuff down on both sides, that mixed with new CCP scarcity updates, this game gets enough shake that
      we wont return to same old cycle where we have been last 7~8 years”

      It is possible that EVE online is on the brink of a new age of sorts. New borders are being established, new powers are being formulated–new alliances (new philosophies?). Furthermore, as you say, scarcity updates have the potential to redefine the ability and methods of powers to establish themselves and flourish. I cannot overemphasize what the potential impact of scarcity could be, especially after a massive, mutually destructive war. We are witnessing and living through an age of destruction, but “the urge to destroy is also a creative urge” – Mikhail Bakunin. Indeed, I think the destruction we are witnessing could be a kind of iconoclasm of the former status quo.

      Thinking that scarcity and the end of this war could act as a sort of reset, I am reminded of Wordsworth’s words on the French Revolution, something I see as comparable to the iconoclasm EVE might be experiencing:

      “Oh! pleasant exercise of hope and joy!
      For mighty were the auxiliars which then stood
      Upon our side, we who were strong in love!
      Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive,
      But to be young was very heaven!”

      Though it must be said, like in the French Revolution, it wouldn’t be heaven for everyone . . .

      February 9, 2021 at 2:53 AM
      • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

        “who had the slogan “We aren’t here to ruin the game, just your game.””.

        You know this is from DJ who was last seen IN PL after trying to kill The Imperium during the Casino War? The guy you quote as being a piece of shit all the tmie was last seen on your side. But looking at the quote in detail.

        “We are not here to ruin the game, we are here to ruin your game”.

        I still stand behind this though. You see I am here to ruin the game of PAPI. Blue donuts and renting is and has always been shit for the game. This is what PAPI’s game is. I would happily sign up to any cause to get rid of the pox that is renting.

        Newer players keep talking about a “reset” while ignoring the lessons of the past. This would not be so bad if it were not for the fact that the lessons of the past are so obvious it is uncomfortable to watch people comment on them.

        February 9, 2021 at 3:40 AM
        • Dripple Moomin Amatin

          I did kinda expected, that the old “grrr PAPI” would come to ramble.
          What comes to your PAPI lying leadership, poaching, renting, probably casino money etc etc. For me both sides of the coin looks similar.

          And then the big one, diplomacy backstabbings, red weddings, betrayals!!
          I personally want that shit, I want EVE nulls diplomacy landscape to shift, todays friends are my tomorrows enemies and vice versa.
          We are playing video game, which is ment to only simulate real-life politics. I’m not letting local shit talk get to me, so I won’t rake wars too personal.

          And I think you forgot “big bad blue donut”, that’s is currently attacking Delve, it’s never ment to last, it’s a temporary alliance.

          And again the last word. I realise I come out pretty ignorant here and I go against my own words with this “personal attack” but I have seen your endless barrage of messages in local/forums. Dude chill the fuck down, it’s video game and everything older than 5v should be ancient history

          February 9, 2021 at 6:41 AM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            Why on earth do you think I am not chill? Can you read minds from a distance?

            As for the rest of your comment. You do you dear and I will continue to watch FIRE and Frat move capital assets from Delve. I will then wait for you to play long enough to watch your schemes fail. You see your personal war on diplomacy is doomed to fail. Have a nice journey though.

            February 9, 2021 at 12:00 PM
          • DJ was in PL for a week, said one thing in IRC and was inactivity kicked on the first of the following month- the guy contributed literally nothing but a psuedo-celebrity cameo at the beginning of the war.

            February 9, 2021 at 3:57 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Xolve

            There was more to it than that though wasn’t there. Quite a bit more. Want to fill in the rest or should we leave this one here before it gets even worse for PAPI?

            February 9, 2021 at 7:55 PM
          • Deni'z von Meanace Dripple

            Sounds like you have overwatched GoT or got too expired reading it.

            February 9, 2021 at 9:18 PM
    • Moomin Amatin Dripple

      I am an old Test member. Tired of being lied to by Test leadership during the Fountain War I ended up being in Goons after. Since then I have watched Test break their word time and time again. I have watched as they have poached members from “valued allies”. TAPI held secret meetings to throw Legacy members to the wolves. Betrayal, lies and back stabbing are the tools of TAPI diplomacy. Every thing that TAPI accuses The Imperium of seems more like a TAPI therapy session.

      So about this “extermination” that you now no longer believe in? Is this duie to the fact that the TAPI plan has blown up in your face? “From Cache to Fountain”, “to rent”, “for the small guy”. This is who you are and what you fight for. Your only counter is to bring up stuff from over a decade ago that is a work of fiction to support a narrative that you hope may save you.

      Come to T5Z local btw and have a chat. I will correct you on the history that you have picked up from TAPI leadership. You know “hell dunk or blue balls” is a Vily thing right? You know that “ruin the game” is from DJ who was last seen working with PL in the Casino War? You know this right? Read my bio in game if you want a few pointers to stop you from making school-yard errors on Eve’s history.

      February 9, 2021 at 3:32 AM
    • Garreth Vlox Dripple

      “Reason being is that I Wish the old days when “mega” alliances weren’t this huge could come back and everyone could be free and happy again!”

      So your plan to go back before the days of the mega coalitions, is to be a part of the biggest one ever formed and try to kill the biggest content generating group in the entire game…. yeah ok, I’ll call bullshit.

      February 10, 2021 at 8:57 PM
  • SCjake333

    “Only in EVE have people made memorials for players that have passed away”

    Are you dumb?

    February 12, 2021 at 8:14 AM