Silver Linings for PAPI; Considerations for Goons


Header art by Elthar Nox.

It is easy to lose one’s head in the midst of war, when the violent swings of morale seem to toss one about like a small ship on choppy seas. One moment you are on the top of the world; the next you are in the depths of despair. Leaders, propagandists and redditswarms only intensify these feelings, whether coming from the enemy or your own side.

The best course is to keep to a middle path of stoicism, especially in the face of disappointment, but also in the throes of victory. Things are rarely as bad, or as good, as they seem. Those who refuse to lose their head and keep their eyes on the path before them, rather than on the fanfare on the road’s shoulder, secure the best chance of getting where one wants to go. In essence, don’t get distracted. Instead, whichever side you are one, let us take a step back and look at how things stand in the larger scheme of things.

Congratulations. Your Leaders Owe You, Bees

I’m going to talk to my Goon readers first. Congratulations are in order. You have survived, as was your victory condition. As such, victory is yours. Through collective effort you managed and upheld morale better than your enemies, and you put in the effort to show up to fleets and fend off your invaders. These efforts deserve praise.

Furthermore, it is important to remember that each of you, from the smallest Goons to the greatest, accomplished these defensive efforts by your actions and efforts however small. Party line Goon rhetoric continues to emphasize the importance of leaders, and leadership. It makes good propaganda, but is an error and (deliberately, perhaps) misunderstands . Leaders, who are wholly dependent on the strength and will of their members, always receive too much praise/blame; it wasn’t Goon leadership who defended PAPI’s offensive.

You did that, you line members who perpetually log in and put in the work. Be proud of yourselves. Towards you, your leaders showed strength, but (though they might deny it) when no one was looking they clasped their hands and with baited breath awaited the results of fight after fight, praying members like you would carry the team through, even sustain their positions, all throughout the war. They owe average Goons like you a great deal. Don’t let your leaders forget that.

Some Considerations

But I have more to say to Goons than just praises. Some considerations: seeing your enemies turn around must feel like the breaking of day after a long night. But the morning after brings with it more than just light. It also brings with it all the responsibilities of the day. Goons deserve some time to celebrate, but when that time is over they will have to reconcile with how much they’ve lost. Goon’s effectively lost every region they once held, hundreds of structures including over 40 keepstars. Goons suffered a staggering level of destruction.

Moreover, EVE Online is not the same game it was before the war started, before Goon losses. The isk needed to core the lost Goon structures alone, let alone to rebuild them, would be sobering for anybody. Without these structures, and cores inside them, it will take time and money before any land you retake in your upcoming counteroffensive becomes relevant. As PAPI’s former members return home (or make new homes) on the whole their krabbing potential and infrastructure will outpace your own, especially if they really capitalize on this opportunity.

TEST may be next all you like, but while you repair a charred landscape groups in Panfam, Fraternity, and AOM will be churning away like nothing happened, infrastructure fully intact. It may be feeling great to be a Goon right now, but I don’t envy your leaders the task of Reconstruction — 1) still in scarcity, 2) with a totally altered industry system, 3) with important materials like Nocxium scattered about in different sectors of the galaxy, making it extra hard for groups without a large reach to build quickly and efficiently. Goon Reconstruction comes at a bad time in EVE, and it is unlikely you will be able to find another Delve-Miracle-mechanic to propel you forward after destruction as they did after the Casino War. This could mean a sizable reduction in Goon strength in post-war EVE.

Your counter offensive promises some success, greater or lesser depending on how well PAPI morale holds up. However, there are two things which may slow, even halt meaningful progress. One is the exposure of your backline as you push forward. This is something that frustrated PAPI often during the war. Initiative and other neutral content seekers disrupted backlines, caused constant distractions. Turns out, taking all of your people out of one spot and putting them somewhere else creates a vacuum enemies/pirates/mercenaries/randoms love to fill.

The other thing the Goon counter offensive will face the same defense mechanics that served them during PAPI’s offensive. Should Goons find themselves having to go through a strong chokepoint, a vigorously defended Keepstar, and/or a motivated force ready to log in and clog up the server, Goons may find themselves in a similar position as PAPI did while Goons chase down TEST.

Who Is To Blame?

Now I would like to talk to my former PAPI readers, whomever may be reading this in. First, I’d like to commend your bravery for entering INN, especially now when the rhetoric you will see here will be extra painful to read.

I’m sure you, like me, found the speedy call for withdrawal shocking. Next came the ejaculatory outbursts from ecstatic Goons on every platform. “Good guys win!” etc. etc. The bees are buzzing and redditswarm meets their quotas; so be it. Let them buzz.

Goons push the narrative that it was our leadership that failed us. This is because, even after our assault’s end, they wish to drive a sword between factions (such as TEST and PanFam), but also between each faction’s own members (such as Horde members and Gobbins). A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand, as they say. Goons know this, hence the content of all their propaganda spam.

Goon rhetoric is that it was our leaders that failed us; but that’s about as true as saying it was Goon leaders that saved them. The blame can only be laid at our own feet, us common foot soldiers. As Dunk said, Goons managed morale better than we did. After M2 we were never quite the same. We stopped logging in, either because we allowed morale hits to affect us or because we were seduced by the real life enjoyments of summer post a long pandemic. Which is okay; go outside! The past few months I’ve also barely played; between wedding planning and (now as I write) being on an extended honeymoon, there’s simply better and more important things to do than play EVE. Human needs come first. I think of alphastarpilot, who broke away from EVE to care for his mental wellbeing, which is admirable, deserving of respect.

But even if we are getting our priorities straight, there are consequences to not logging in. Whatever 3:1 advantage we had, that never presented itself on the battlefield; even early on when Goon regions burned largely uncontested. On average we sat at about 1.5 what Goons had in any given battle early on, which as time went on continued to creep downward, especially after M2. By the end we hovered meekly around 0.7 of Goons’ numbers. Sometimes even less. No leader could take 1DQ with these numbers. Goons will tell you our leaders let us down, but in reality it’s the other way around. We let them down.

The Agenda of Goon Rhetoric’s

I would point out here the reasons Goons shower Dunk Dinkle with flattery for “taking responsibility” are so obvious, it’s a bit sad. As if Dunk single handedly were responsible for the politically impossible situation BRAVE was put in! BRAVE was fated to be the victim of history, being where, stuck in the middle of it all.

And deep down, Goons know this. My heart goes out to BRAVE and Dunk. The reason Goons praise Dunk for “taking responsibility” is because there is political capital in one’s enemies accepting fault; it absolves Goons of any guilt they might feel when they’re smashing BRAVE Newbies to smithereens. Praising dunk eases Goon consciences, while also advancing their “bad leadership” narrative to drive a sword between leaders and members of PAPI’s forces during a Goon offensive. What Dunk said he said to make sense of BRAVE’s personal, unasked for chaos for distraught Newbies; Goons jumped on Dunk’s “responsibility” bandwagon for political reasons, and they know it.

Goons would channel any negative feelings we have right now and assist us in aiming them where Goons know would do us the most damage, seeing us headshot our own organizations and fail cascade without even having to do the work themselves. They wish to weaken us so that, by the time their counter offensive reaches us, we are already a strife-fertile field to plant slaughter. Don’t fall for it.

Accepting Disappointment

I know. It stings. Despite all our accomplishments, a rather stunning marathon of Goon-grinding, region-taking demolition, unlikely to ever be repeated again, it wasn’t how we wanted it to end. Not like this. I get it. Close your eyes and swallow that bitter pill down. But when you open your eyes again: chin up, head high. We have work to do; no worrying about reddit or the comments below this article.

We didn’t take 1DQ or the last six systems Goons had, which would have been symbolically dramatic and incredibly satisfying. More importantly, though, we didn’t reduce their capital and titan fleet relative to our own. PAPI combined, I think we are about even (counting FRT). But separate—which we are, now—so far as I can gather, Goon’s big toys outnumber each individual faction’s stash. Their counteroffensive threatens with these titans with a morale-boosted Goons, swelling numbers. That’s the bad news.

Get Back Up; There’s Work to Do

But there is good news as well, some silver linings. As mentioned above the defense mechanics that aided Goons will also aid us. Goons never could push out of their containment; we were in a stalemate which pretty much meant that whoever attacked first lost. Since we wanted 1DQ, we kept attacking. But it is useful to remember that Goons were effectively as useless as we were in that situation. Their counter offensive has the potential to be blunted by these mechanics, despite their titan numbers, so long as we can form high numbers to meet them. Between these mechanics and tidi, even numerical/titan advantages are mitigated.

Furthermore, the further Goons push out the more they will leave their backline open. Our grindfest left nothing behind. Goons have a lot of dark, empty space with no spots to tether to move through in safety. It’s going to be harder for them to defend anything back home among the ashes than it was for us.

More importantly, while we didn’t take 1DQ, we set ourselves up to address the new future of EVE post scarcity/post industry changes/post resource redistribution. The fact is we are much better off to meet the challenges of modern EVE than Goons are, and these will have long term consequences. This is contingent, of course, on us logging back in en masse and getting to work. Luckily, that’s easy to do; simply log back in. Help fight whatever Goons send our way now find ways to help your organization get ahead of Goons economically. Spam-join mining fleets and don’t slack on your PI; ask which resources your organization most needs and acquire them, making yourself money in ways that also best help your team as a whole. Meanwhile, Goons will be simply trying to get back to where they once were.

We have an opportunity here that we should not squander. Goons have won an immediate morale victory by having us go home. But there’s a long-game we can play, and are set up to play well. We have two futures placed before us. One where Groen writes about how Goons after turning PAPI back grew to dominance yet again. Or one where Groen writes about how, despite Goons’ impressive defense, they were unable to adapt as well as others to a changed New Eden after the damages suffered. This second version of history might already be the most probable, but let’s not leave it to chance. So long as we prevent Goons from doing much damage to our infrastructure in this upcoming counter offensive we can win the long game.

Goons say they won the war. (Did you expect any different, even if we had smashed 1DQ? Goon prattle cheapens itself via loudness, superfluousness.) Answer yourself this question: looking at the map, who is set up better to prep for the next war? Every war’s end begins a cold one. Don’t lose your head, nor your lose heart, my fellow pubbies. Time is long, and Goons’ future may not be pleasant despite the passion of the moment. Sow today what victories you wish to reap tomorrow; and PAPI—even turning before 1DQ—just sowed a really big seed. Water it.

Fly safe; there’s work to do.

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  • shanemacgowansteeth

    Hate to break it to you, but almost all of the iHubs in Delve, Querious and Period Basis will be back in Goon hands before the weekend’s out, almost all PAPI structures in the regions will be dead soon after, Goon structures are being anchored in our space as we speak – we unanchored almost as many as you killed, and raised trillions in warbonds which are still paying out by the way – and people are settling back into their own old homes

    August 6, 2021 at 8:10 AM
    • shanemacgowansteeth shanemacgowansteeth

      Sources tell me 170 cored PAPI structures could go BOOM today. That’ll help the resettling of Delve

      August 6, 2021 at 8:12 AM
      • On a related note, INIT would like to thank Delve and TEST and the other residents of Catch and Impass for their extremely generous donation of Cores.

        August 6, 2021 at 4:32 PM
    • It’ll probably be more like 2 weeks for sov, 3 weeks for industry, and 4 weeks to pop any remaining PAPI structure. Which is still super fast of course, but that’s to be expected when leadership invests in infrastructure/membership. Rather than having 90% of income just kind of dissappear into the aether like PAPI.

      August 7, 2021 at 5:02 AM
  • Eve_Osir1s

    “Answer yourself this question: looking at the map, who is set up better to prep for the next war? ”
    The map can be deceiving. After the Casino War, The Imperium were in a worse position and still adapted better. The reality is that it takes far more than space to prepare for the next war, it takes effort. You are right to point out the strength of the Imperium line member; as the history of the last few years has shown, Joe Goon is willing to put forth that effort.

    August 6, 2021 at 8:33 AM
    • kwnyupstate . Eve_Osir1s

      After a failure as big and long as this war the poor line members of former PAPI alliances won’t be putting a lot of effort into the dreams of the same horrible leaders the next time they say “Hey guys lets all get together and defeat the Imperium!”.

      August 6, 2021 at 8:45 PM
      • Garreth Vlox kwnyupstate .

        Exactly. The side best setup for the next war is the one not crawling back to the homes, while their allies pull the rugs out from under each others feet in a race to not be the last guy out the door because they are all terrified of what they know is coming. If the war were to continue right now, and given goons SKY HIGH morale and leadership statements there is every reason to think they will continue the war and directly counter attack the side best setup to win is the one that when it came time for a “final push” out formed the invaders 2:1 even though those same invaders in raw numbers outnumber them 3:1. PAPI needs to be real worried that even if they are playing defense they won’t be able to hold their own at this point especially given how FRAT seems to be content to just wash their hands of the whole matter and walk away, while legacy self destructs and brave runs for the hills. If it comes down to just Test/NC/horde v The Imperium that might not end well for the former PAPI members…

        August 7, 2021 at 1:43 AM
  • RaiderStu

    When professional soldiers are marched off to war by their leaders, they do so accepting that is their role. They don’t get a say in the target, they don’t get time off because the sun is out and they don’t get to leave halfway through if they’re not enjoying themselves.

    In a game, even one as indepth as Eve, none of these things apply. If you want to take on something like the destruction of Delve and Goonswarm itself then you’d better make sure you have one hell of a plan in place and crucially, enough players to ensure that plan works.

    I can agree with some points you make, particularly regarding the difficulties of a future counter attack but, the reason PAPI is retreating is entirely the fault of PAPI leadership. The plan was not in place; there were even different victory conditions depending on which leader you listened to. If the numerical advantage was half what it should have been then why did PAPI launch the invasion when it did? Nobody noticed your numbers were down fifty percent or the decision was taken to just push on anyway?

    There will be mistakes and accidents in any conflict but when they are as large as M2 then that puts massive strain on the offending force, a strain that must be countered hard and fast by leadership. From start to finish, the leadership of PAPI have been found wanting. That is the reason for the drop in morale, players online and now, people happy to play ‘under’ that leadership.

    To suggest its the line members’ fault, to blame them for their poor morale and then expect them to improve that morale suggests a severe lack of understanding on your part of the people behind the keyboards. I hope you and the PAPI leadership figure this out before you drive more people away from a crucial counter to an incredibly strong and well led Goons or even from the game entirely.

    August 6, 2021 at 8:55 AM
    • J Moravia RaiderStu

      You raise a very interesting point about professional war being war-by-dictatorship (you follow orders or get court-martialed) whereas EVE is war-by-democracy (if you don’t agree with what your leaders are doing, you stop logging in or switch corporations). There’s an article waiting to be written about how leaders must prosecute war differently when coming from each of those different mindsets.

      August 6, 2021 at 2:04 PM
      • Jeet_Kundo J Moravia

        Yep, they effectively have to sell the war as a commodity or service, rather than a mandate – it requires marketing instead of commissars. When the war has become so stale that you’re having to market your 14 month old bread as artistic croutons that bite you back, while asking for fresh baked-daily attendance and effort as consideration, good luck getting anyone to pay more than a cent per pound

        August 6, 2021 at 3:58 PM
        • chthulan Jeet_Kundo

          Nice buns, by the way.

          August 6, 2021 at 4:19 PM
          • Jeet_Kundo chthulan

            Thanks, they workout

            August 6, 2021 at 4:26 PM
  • Jeet_Kundo

    I will never encourage making subordinates blame themselves, it’s fundamentally and functionally wrong at an organizational level. You’re right, you’re not beholden to leadership, leadership is beholden to you, but leadership sets the tone at the top – the largest frauds uncovered in American history (Enron, Arthur Andersen, Worldcom, Fannie Mae, Waste Management, Theranos, etc.) and now and recently parts of Europe (Wirecard in Germany, Airbus in the UK) all were propagated from the top and found its way to the bottom: though they may be legally liable as it goes the line, the justice departments just about always stop drilling their way down if they can get leadership/management, it sets an example out of them – they use subordinates to catch management in particularly challenging cases. In every case, the culture and behaviors encouraged that allowed this frauds to happen were in every way set by the leadership – Jeff Skilling of Enron instilled the cutthroat and dishonest environment of tiered employment, the bottom ranks were fired and the money was too good, he loved greed and so encouraged his subordinates, leaving a scar on American enterprise as well as my home town.

    You will find it in every case, leadership tailors their subordinates through fear, coercion, or grand incentive, we saw all of this within PAPI where dissenters were chided and otherwise chased-off by other subordinates, groups of those who felt the juice wasn’t worth the squeeze branded as traitors, join or die strategies of building up the coalition, and grand victory for those who stayed. I bring up fraud because these share in organizational structure, nonetheless the game being modeled around, as the game – we have different departments, segments, operations, all with their respective directors, VPs, and CEO.

    To PAPI line members: you should not feel ashamed for voting with your boots for something you’ve come to disagree with, you should not feel like failures for otherwise standing up for your game, you should be upset that your leaders sent you through hell on a vanity project to drop it all in the end, those who blew their respective whistles shouldn’t be chided or otherwise ostracized, you did everything you would have otherwise been expected to do in life by having an ounce of integrity. Your leaders lack of responsibility, inability to address shortcomings, failure to have an ounce of self-reflection, and constantly trying to resolve a symptom of their ineptness rather than taking a step back themselves is 100% not on you.

    To Sier: maybe this is simply a topic I’m particularly passionate about, I’m moving my career forward in Public Accounting – ethics, integrity, standing up to your superiors, speaking up and blowing the whistle on things you simply find wrong in your gut are drilled drilled in our head from well before you leave school, prepare for the CPA, and as required CPE to maintain that license of public trust. Are there shit accountants and organizations that utilized them? Of course, and they leave a blemish on the profession, as well as a rift in stakeholders to the extent of ruining lives – all those frauds above led to Sarbanes-Oxley for tighter rules and punishment for management, why? Because they set the stage. This may simply be a passionate topic but you *do not* blame subordinates for failures of management to keep them on the rails. Not everyone is built to lead, others are, and both show. Good leaders get to share in the revels of victory, as well as the lion’s share of responsibility in failure – yours loved to do to former and desperately tried to escape the latter in every way possible.

    August 6, 2021 at 9:23 AM
    • Moomin Amatin Jeet_Kundo

      Any system/process that requires a human hierarchy will become corrupt over time, unless the attraction to corruption is countered. Seir’s whole piece is indicative of such corruption. Rather than take the chance for reflection he has opted to fall in line with the leadership hyperbole. Just look at where he started with his writings on this war and where he has ended. Fear I suspect is the reason. Fear that if he looks that he will see the failings of PanFam and realise his immense error in giving them his support. This is a fear also shared by other members of PAPI. Sunk cost fallacy is a bitch.

      There is another point I would like to make about leadership. Real leaders have followers. They have a vision that people buy into and make it their own. Managers have subordinates. As an Imperium member I think we have “leaders” at the top. Ones who dreams of a vision and are humble enough to find people who can deliver and not get in their way.

      August 6, 2021 at 2:12 PM
      • Jeet_Kundo Moomin Amatin

        The reason why I appreciated Dunk’s speech is that he gave it as a person who seemed to have been hit with the results, took a step back, analyzed everything that has happened, noticed how nothing looks remotely the same as when they went in, and not in a good way. People get in a rut and slide away without ever noticing it, it happens, it takes a simple confrontation or moment of reflection to recognize it and move forward. There’s an air of narcissism that permeates the room with everyone else in their leadership team, humility and responsibility should always be lauded.

        August 6, 2021 at 2:55 PM
  • William Doe

    In terms of rebuilding post-war. I’m fairly sure TEST is going to suffer immensely and have a harder time than Goons ever will. Paying back their SRP with TTT money getting dwindled own due to the new tax is a pain (and Mittens admitted Goons only get 20% off TTT which really doesn’t factor as much as TEST or Horde gets) on their bottom line. It could take TEST a long time to pay back everything in full especially while they hide out in drones also seemingly will be paying rent to PanFam too.

    Goons’ logistics really are the heroes of this war. No matter what PAPI did, Goons always had a steady stream of getting ships, and resources into 1DQ the entire time, their SRP was insanely fast compared to the joke of whatever PAPI had going for them. Goons weren’t being scammed with bullshit doctrines (near 1B ISK cost Tengus that were around to be a third less in cost at Jita) by their own people. People would churn out dozens of ships in preparations of the last weeks of this war and they hardly saw many of them end up dying, now those ships could be put to use in the new status quo of retaking their lands back and rebuilding as well as hunting down TEST.

    Noraus and FRT recently released a statement basically saying they’re going back home north. Interestingly Noraus is seemingly not willing to accept the praise given to him by Goons but wants to rebuild things. As Moomin pointed out in a past comment Noraus is expanding his empire though as he courts EU and US players in FRT. Personally I think it may be too early to tell what happens next with FRT, though they have to be aware of the rise of a new PIBC with AoM in it. I do think the next “big war” after all of this will involve FRT as one of the major antagonists and may have them take a more proactive role compared to what happened in WWB.

    August 6, 2021 at 10:25 AM
    • kwnyupstate . William Doe

      LOGI for the win.

      August 6, 2021 at 8:48 PM
  • EVE Player #27482716

    Pretty weak, even for Seir. The PAPI effort to eliminate the Imperium failed miserably BUT hold hands and ra ra something something….

    August 6, 2021 at 11:10 AM
    • shanemacgowansteeth EVE Player #27482716

      It does sound awfully reminiscent of the streamed TEST comms from Monday when someone piped up to say “but we won the war” and then whoever said that was quickly corrected. SAPI won nothing, except an absolute hiding

      August 6, 2021 at 11:28 AM
      • Jeet_Kundo shanemacgowansteeth

        Yep, “We didn’t win shit”. The guy trying to cope-away the pain gave imagery of a elementary school teacher trying to convince a kid that he won a game, that he lost, by jumping through a bunch of mental hoops that a kid would otherwise not be able to put together. Stages of acceptance, some have advanced much faster than others, that guy in particular was stuck in denial.

        August 6, 2021 at 11:32 AM
    • He seems to imply that they’re not currently falling apart at the seams for that matter. There is no organized march out of 1DQ, it’s every man for himself. The PAPI of the war is not the PAPI after the war, the implication that they will march off from Delve in unison and build sandcastles together is contrary to reality; they’re fragmenting and forming their own groups, or drifting off like ash in the wind.

      August 6, 2021 at 11:37 AM
      • J Moravia Jeet_Kundo

        It’s every man for himself and Vily was the first one out.

        August 6, 2021 at 2:06 PM
        • Moomin Amatin J Moravia

          That was for “a friend”.

          August 6, 2021 at 2:13 PM
      • Garreth Vlox Jeet_Kundo

        “He seems to imply that they’re not currently falling apart at the seams for that matter.”

        Yes, I particularly liked how he implied the cracks currently shattering their super blue donut are infact 100% created by the imperium propaganda team and not a simple reaction of all the different groups turning on procoward and sily for unanchoring their evac route mid “final push”…

        August 6, 2021 at 2:54 PM
      • Malcanis Jeet_Kundo

        YeetFleet is go!

        August 6, 2021 at 4:33 PM
  • BriscRubal


    August 6, 2021 at 11:31 AM
  • Guilford Australis

    The theory that line members are responsible for PAPI’s failure rather than leadership is ridiculous. Line members don’t make strategic decisions, create doctrines, form fleets, establish the coalition’s logistical network, and maintain morale – all of which can make their lives either great or miserable. Line members can only work with what they’re given. If their leaders give them crap, they’re not to blame for choosing not to eat crap. PAPI’s incompetent leaders fed their line members crap.

    PGL and Vily are indisputably terrible, incompetent leaders who by all accounts even upset the rest of the coalition leaders with their bumbling stupidity. Gobbins turned out to be a passive, dithering weakling who was so shaken by M2 that he refused to use supercapitals. He failed your line members by dragging this war out for an eternity, which greatly weakened your resolve, then crushed your morale by tossing useless subcap fleets into Imperium supercapitals because we did not share Gobbins’ cowardice about using them.

    Your leaders are terrible, and they made terrible decisions that they repeatedly reinforced with more terrible decisions. Line members voted with their feet because they had no control over the unbelievable incompetence they were expected to endure for 14 months. That is 100% on leadership.

    August 6, 2021 at 11:34 AM
    • This: poor turnout can doom any group regardless of who’s FCing, but likewise poor leadership can doom a group no matter how many of its members turn out. Morale struggled and numbers waned after M2? Well then, how did PAPI arrive at M2? Because their numerical advantages were squandered by inept leadership who made poor decisions at every turn.

      August 7, 2021 at 6:53 AM
  • J Moravia

    Congratulations on getting married! I wish you and your spouse maximum happiness.

    Now for business:

    Goon rhetoric is that it was our leaders that failed us; but that’s about as true as saying it was Goon leaders that saved them. The blame can only be laid at our own feet, us common foot soldiers.

    This is just plain wishful thinking. All of the blame for the outcome falls on Vily and PGL. Vily was the one who set unattainable war goals by saying “1DQ or we fail.” Vily was the one who said “war of extermination.” Vily was the one who said TEST was going to live in Delve after the war was over while keeping all of their previous regions. If the goal had merely been to give Delve a bloody nose and set goons back economically – all the things you said in your “some considerations” section – then PAPI would have moonwalked out of Delve as champions six or eight months ago. The line members aren’t to blame – they quit logging in as soon as they realized their leaders had hung them out to dry.

    I’m also not sure why you insist that “party line goon rhetoric” praises leaders over line members. I saw The Mittani look directly into the camera multiple times during the victory Meta Show and say “it was YOU,” the line members, who won the war. He didn’t name a single FC, corp/alliance CEO, logistics coordinator, or anything. He credited the line.

    August 6, 2021 at 12:27 PM
    • Jeet_Kundo J Moravia

      I can’t tell which is more warped: blaming the line members or saying that we’re praising dunk for it supposedly legitimizing getting a hard-on for the incoming squishing under our thumb like a battered spouse.

      August 6, 2021 at 12:34 PM
      • Gray Doc Jeet_Kundo

        I agree with your point, but had to do a down vote for the “battered spouse” bit. Don’t think we should go there.

        August 6, 2021 at 2:29 PM
        • Jeet_Kundo Gray Doc

          Southern analogies I suppose, I’ve no problem removing it should it pose an issue – it’s just how I took it as the way it was described made it sound like we are some abusive group of bastards that get a rise out of stomping the shit out of someone, grabbing at the holster of what may otherwise legitimize such action, when it’s simply not true. Hence the comparison: it’s twisted, it’s gross, it’s wrong, and find it as a character stab more than a simple prod.

          August 6, 2021 at 2:50 PM
    • Deni'z von Meanace J Moravia

      Cause he (Sier) has to say something bad about goons, so that’s why he tried to use same narrative that goons use. Poor management.

      August 6, 2021 at 1:19 PM
  • Elthar Nox

    Yeh – I’ve never disagreed more with an article than this one. Soldiers are never responsible for the failures of their leaders.

    August 6, 2021 at 1:33 PM
  • PugDaddyD

    LOL, yeah blame the PAPI line members for an ill conceived war with an ill conceived end game against a superior entrenched enemy.

    August 6, 2021 at 1:33 PM
  • Garreth Vlox

    “The blame can only be laid at our own feet, us common foot soldiers. As Dunk said, Goons managed morale better than we did. After M2 we were never quite the same. We stopped logging in,”

    Yes because you LEADERS walked you face first into a blender…. holy shit you really started double fisting the koolaid.

    August 6, 2021 at 2:47 PM
  • ShutUp ShutUp

    What an astonishing fundamental misunderstanding of our culture you have. It’s been evident in every article, but this is really the shining beacon of ignorance. Every last bit of our inward facing communications and propaganda are about emphasizing and elevating the contributions of even the smallest bee. All your literary analysis or whatever under your belt, and you still cannot understand what makes us tick. And so, you write this hamfisted attempt at doing your own wedge-driving. Honestly, go back to your honeymoon.

    August 6, 2021 at 3:12 PM
    • Jeet_Kundo ShutUp ShutUp

      If he’s a grad student teaching rhetoric, I’m assuming he’s a PhD student working on a thesis. I’d not be the slightest bit shocked, given his involvement in the game as well as being our favorite foe here, if it covers the power of propaganda. It’s more of a hope than wanting to believe in willful dishonesty for the sake of it.

      August 6, 2021 at 3:21 PM
  • Havish Montak

    Sorry to spoil your fun. But there is only gonna be FRT and PANFAM in a good position. Any Legacy group is next. GG.

    Also, AOM will not be ahead due to having to move home region and having it all toasted by Russians and INIT.

    August 6, 2021 at 4:08 PM
  • Xandryll

    There is a lot to unpack here…

    The immediate response by line members gives you the best indication of whose speech was well received. Dunk accepted the blame for not putting Brave in the best situation possible. PGL blamed CCP nerfing taxes and destroying the earning potential of the TTT. Brave members rallied around their leader and offered him their sincere support. They realized their leader was hurting because he felt he let down Brave pilots and will likely fight hard for him. The reaction from TEST pilots when the floor was opened up for comments was a chorus of bewilderment, WTFs, statements of TEST not winning anything and generalized dissent. Was there a unifying battle or rallying cry which would lead someone to believe TEST is ready to weather a defense? Guys.

    Goons were able to read or listen to the retreat speeches given by the various SAPI blocs. Seir, you state Goons have praised Dunk because his speech resembles our own narrative. I completely disagree with that. I can sympathize with the situation SAPI is in because I have defended my own home in Eve from a vast number of pilots wanting to destroy my tribe. Dunk’s speech was more effective. Dunk’s speech received the exact reaction which Dunk wanted and Brave needed. The reaction to PGL’s speech was very different. PGL does not know what TEST needed to hear and could only attempt to shift the blame off of him. As a Goon, I implore TEST to keep PGL in a position of power. Promote him, please!

    Could you please elaborate on how SAPI leadership was let down by their line members? Line members in SAPI manned thousands of ships. Over 800 Ferox ships during that final attack. Over 700 of those Ferox ships were destroyed. The average line member in TEST was dedicated and willing to fight, die and reship as needed. PGL’s speech even ended with an unknown line member stating that he would rather stay and fight than to leave. That is their dedication. Would they have that same dedication if they knew they were being asked to jump head first in to the 1DQ meat grinder if they knew they were really just covering the initial unanchoring process? Would they have that same dedication if they knew their leadership had already resigned themselves to giving up and retreating? The line members did not quit on their leadership. SAPI leadership quit on their line members.

    August 6, 2021 at 5:44 PM
  • kwnyupstate .

    The most cohesive and strongest alliance is best for the next war and that is the Imperium by far; the war proved that.
    Do you think all those angry players will follow the same loser leaders from PAPI again?
    I heard much more anger directed against those leaders when the war ended than at the Imperium.
    Your leaders gave unrealistic expectations to PAPI members for well over a year and then only after they failed at the final battle did they openly admit that yeah it was going to be really painful and they had to decide to lose everything attempting it or PASS again.

    August 6, 2021 at 8:38 PM
  • Xelistren

    As a PR rep in EE I am deeply saddened at you seir. Any good PR rep knows that they are just a cog in the machine either in tune with just their leader or in tune with both their leader and reality. PR, IA, Diplo, Indy and FCs are all major roles don’t get me wrong, but none of them play as important of a role as the leader. A leader sets the tone of his group, the leader sets the goals, sets the pace, and above all decides on the plan. Line members will either resonate with the leader and follow the leader or they will stop supporting the leader. The Mittani set the tone for the Imperium, and they resonated with the tone so strongly that there was no questions, the plan will work, he made the Imperium believe they could do it, he made them believe in the Imperium. sapi leaders did none of this. Those who followed trusted their leaders to look out for their best interest and when it started looking like the leaders weren’t looking out for their best interest, members quit the field. It isn’t the line members fault it falls on the leaders and their means of dispersion to their members. Granted the Imperium line members do deserve credit but not for doing everything, but for believing that Mittani and other Imperium leaders had their best interest.

    Next time before you try to divert blame take a good hard look at the big picture. INN and several other sources showed the big picture for over a year and you blatantly ignored it because you drank the kool aid.

    August 7, 2021 at 4:14 AM
  • Frans Bovens

    Trying to write a piece which claims to be neutral, and then sub messasing gsf that it s wiser to stay home instead of going on a rampage is hilarious. Papi is down, it makes perfect sense to kick them now. Gsf is battle hardened now, well suplied, and can operate from one base. Papi is scattering, will not back another, nor can they. Goons can move super fleet and no single papi member can resist that umbrella or fight it. Delve is filled with timers, flipping in now time. And the 40 keepstars will be replaced. They where not put down because they where needed badly but because they could, and make a greta slow down buffer for invaders… 1 year. Gsf leadership delivered on their retorics, papi did not. So aside from failing to annihilate goons, they also lost the morale war. Add to it their numerical advantages at the start, then thats 3 sides of victory. Add an intact gsf titan fleet who can now operate freely anywhere, then its clear gsf now won eve, so yeah dear writer, if anything here is propaganda, its this piece, and subliminal doesnt work in this case. Go goons, kick them all.caude you can and its hilarious, be a goon.

    August 7, 2021 at 4:23 AM
  • Deni'z von Meanace

    Poor Seir, you keep blaming papi line members for the war being lost while pGL and Vily announced final push and line members participated as before but your beloved leadership started unanchoring structures behind everyone’s backs trying to save on their golden bullets and letting line members die for no reason in terms of war. Instead of announcement of war end and organized demob they prefer to play unfair as usual. I can’t imagine Mittens did same crap for Imperium if 1DQ would fall. He would be the last man who left the system during evac vs. run with trillions in pockets leaving bees alone.

    August 8, 2021 at 5:42 AM
  • Deni'z von Meanace

    A consideration to TEST, hopefully all legacy members get their balls and switch the brains to leave testicles alone without any chance to build another coalition under vily and pgl leadership. Test would become what it was after Fountain war, 10k of toxic renegades without home and future.

    August 8, 2021 at 12:51 PM
  • Christian ck

    You do have a point, resettling delve will take time. However, with legacy disbanding, some ex-papi members don’t seem to have that clear of a future, hurting their war preparations. I doubt the imperium will mindlessly spam their structures this time and will be much more carefull and strategic with them, which means they won’t have to replace all the lost structures. Fraternity and panfam certainly have a card to play though.

    August 9, 2021 at 6:35 PM
  • George Yth

    Am I just not in on the hilarious joke that this “Seir Luciel” character is a wholesale invention of the Goon propaganda arm?!
    (I know someone with the same name exists in Horde, don’t @ me on that)
    But… He only exists to further any dangerous exPAPI delusions. erect hate-boners among goons and be passionately counterpointed at?

    Sorry if I’m breaking the kayfabe here, but it’s a bit too in your face at this point.

    August 13, 2021 at 10:30 AM