Goon and Horde: A Conversation about 1DQ

2021-06-10

Header art by Major Sniper

This article is a brief discussion, between two INN editors, on the topic of why PAPI seem to be taking so long to invade the Imperium’s last constellation. Gray Doc is a member of KarmaFleet, while Seir Lucial is a member of Pandemic Horde Inc.

Gray Doc: Back about six weeks ago, several members of PAPI had SOTAs in which they expressed their intent to attack the last remaining Imperium constellation with subcaps. We’ve seen a couple forays into O-EIMK, but nothing has stuck, so to speak.  My initial questions, then, are simple. What are you waiting for? Are you content just to sit one gate away from 1DQ and be a part of the Big Blue Donut for weeks and weeks and weeks while continuing to claim this donut won’t last very long?

Seir Luciel: Well, I’d challenge your assertion that we are waiting; the narrative that the PAPI assault was steady, until they reached the 1DQ gates only to peter out, is a false one. What we are seeing isn’t the cessation of PAPI aggression (as many recent, major battles can attest), but the beginning of a serious Goons defense, finally giving PAPI enough resistance to slow their movement across the map. What previously would have been an uncontested structure bash and sov transfer is now a major battle, without the quick transfer of power from Goons to PAPI. From your perspective, you ask “What are you waiting for?” But from my perspective it’s: “Ah, so you finally decided to put up some resistance.” 

Gray Doc: You haven’t answered the question, but merely explained the long slow process to reach this point. You are here now, finally. The “enemy at the gates,” so to speak. The position usually calls for a massive battle. You actually edit Ban Syrin’s War Update articles, so you know full well that during the past five or six weeks very little has happened, except two rather large battles, one that favored PAPI and the last that favored Goons. Two battles in many weeks. So I ask again:  What are you waiting for? Perhaps if you take another swing at it, you can answer the question this time.

Seir Luciel: It’s true; “usually,” wars in EVE end with a large massive battle before being decided; that’s how so many other EVE wars have gone down. But as we both can attest, there isn’t anything usual about WWBII: the time frame, the scale, the ISK cost, number of players involved, etc. All those are things that Goons, in my opinion, are struggling to come to grips with: this war is not like the wars of the past. We aren’t dealing with “just another war”; this is an Armageddon. Many of the old rules and customs don’t apply. 

But to your question–why? I don’t want to oversimplify things, there is more than one reason why things have, in some senses, slowed down. One is simply the game mechanics, with the highly defensible chokepoints Goons have set up, combined with the scale of this war. Jumping 100, 200 people through a gate to fight another 200 players ready to meet them is challenging in its own right. Now make it 1000 on both sides, with time dilation and the risk of server weirdities like those seen at M2. The servers have never been pushed this hard, nor have fleet doctrines been tested at these kinds of scales to see which work best, which synergies are most efficient in dealing with such a turtled enemy under time dilation. 

What PAPI is doing right now is effectively playing like it’s a test server, not madly rushing Goon defenses but undergoing a specialized dissection, accumulating data. What PAPI doesn’t want to do is lose a bunch of stuff in the testing process (right in the middle of CCP changing game mechanics and earth-shattering economic alterations; making war is hard enough when the economy and game mechanics are stable, and it’s not the time to be making mistakes), tanking PAPI morale while boosting The Imperium’s, which is quite high right now. 

Gray Doc: My question was not “why” but “what?” Even given everything you said in your quite extensive answer, you haven’t answered the question and this next attempt will be the third strike as far as I’m concerned. Here’s the softball pitch: what are you waiting for? Server mechanics! PAPI knew very well about server mechanics and has known for years, so that’s a complete red herring. “Specialized dissection” “accumulating data!” Sounds like balderdash. For five weeks! There must be some tiny part of you that knows it because you avoid the question so well while using so many words. What are you waiting for? If you don’t answer the question this time, I’ll make my own attempt to answer the question for you, which PAPI folk, including you, might not like.

Seir Luciel: In a word, cracks. When a dam breaks it is easy to assume the event is a quick one, a sudden bursting forth, an explosion of water and concrete. But in reality a dam breaks over a long period of time; weaknesses form, cracks lengthen, until finally a threshold is crossed with explosive and rapid final results. It is a problem of perception. Does the intense pressure of tons of water “begin” right before a dam fails: What was the water waiting for?! Or was the pressure present the whole time, with only the outwardly dramatic explosion happening at the last? Take another example: when an animal dies, when does decomposition begin? Immediately. But so gradually, from hour to hour, one might think nothing is happening: one could falsely come to the conclusion that Death is “stalling.” 

It may seem to you like I am not answering the question, because the question is inherently flawed. By answering the question, as you frame it, I would be accepting the presumption that PAPI is, in fact, waiting for something: we aren’t. The Imperium finds itself and its thousands mashed into roughly six, seven systems—a dam ready to break with the continuous pressure of PAPI leaning against it should cracks begin to form in Goon’s, so far, solid defense. I’d argue the more relevant question is not, “What are we waiting for?” but “How long until cracks begin to form?” How long until some aspect of Goon defense weakens, a place for water to rush in? A month? Three? Seven? 

Maybe Goons will hold in the end; maybe the dam won’t break. But, as Legacy now lives in Delve, the day might come when people will ask “What are Goons waiting for?” The day The Imperium declares the PAPI assault concluded is the day their own “TEST is next” clock starts ticking. As a result, Goons might not want to call the end of the PAPI assault/Goon defense too soon. 

Gray Doc: I’ll have to answer my own question, because “cracks” doesn’t even come close to answering the question. Here’s what I think is the problem. What is PAPI waiting for? Goons to fail-cascade, because the trenches are too deep, the defenses too good. PAPI has to hope that Goons just pack up and go away, bored to near tears with this game and go and play Cyberpunk, or something. Because PAPI has no strategy. This “cracks” scenario would make some sense if we were talking about a week’s worth of “probing” etc. But now it’s just stalling. Entire campaigns have been fought, and completed, in five weeks. PAPI reminds me of the character “Pigkiller” in Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome. Somehow, he finds himself driving this train engine, having broken out of Bartertown, and now he and Max and all the escapees are barreling down railroad tracks being chased by the baddies. Max crawls up to the window of the engine and says, “So what’s the plan.”  

Pigkiller, like PAPI, says, “Plan? There ain’t no plan!”

Seir Luciel: I can’t help that Goons don’t like the answers to their questions, and insist on answering their own questions themselves: I would say the Goon narrative not only speaks for itself, but it also speaks to itself ignoring outside opinion. But a question before we part: Goons believe PAPI are cowards, and are stalling, unwilling to pay the butcher’s bill. I think that’s inaccurate, but to get inside the Goon brain, let’s say we followed that logic to its conclusion. Let’s say, in an alternate universe, PAPI never launched another attack, just chilling in T5Z and all of Delve – mining, building, ratting, carrying on with their life. Considering PAPI has less of an impetus to attack, other than wanting to smash Goon’s capital city, compared to the Goon impetus to defend, how long would Goons stay in six star systems before coming out? How long before Goons did something, and what would they do?

Gray Doc: Well, then, we’d have Serenity 2, which you claim you don’t want and we don’t have.  And of course, the way you’ve “framed” the question, that would all be Goons fault because they failed to attack vs. 3-1 odds. Your question goes to the very heart of the problem, though, doesn’t it? PAPI members, illustrated by your comments here, which granted may not be representative of PAPI as a whole, show you are in fact contented with the status quo, have no sense of urgency at all to get on with “the job.” This has been the Goon’s claim all along, which you, by the way, have decried to high heaven as false. And yet, here we are. In the end, when you had to answer the question, you answered with a dam(n) analogy about cracks, etc and then launched into the idea that Goons are to blame for the current state of boring warfare. I would say “Unbelievable” except I’ve seen this tactic many times. Complete denial until you absolutely must come up with an answer, then falling back to blaming Goons for PAPI’s own failure to have a plan. Well done.

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Comments

  • Rabid

    Honestly, I am disappointed with the quality of this “Analysis”. From BOTH of you. If all I wanted was back and forth sniping between the participants in the war I could have opened Reddit.

    To show that this is not Reddit, here is some constructive criticism for how you could have handled it differently!

    Gray Doc: You stubbornly cling to the question “What is papi waiting for?” It’s a fine question to ask, but I agree with Seir Luciel’s response: The question is disingenuous and is posed purely to put papi (no caps by choice) in a bad light.
    How about pivoting to something like “So now that you’ve encountered some resistance you’re happy to just preserve the status quo without changing?”
    Furthermore, I would really have liked to hear more about these so-called “cracks”. What would they look like? How would you know if they start forming? What are you doing to encourage them and make them form more cracks? How long are you happy to sit and wait for them before trying a different approach?

    Seir Luciel: Your opponent raises a very valid point, you squirm out of answering every question put before you and make up excuses instead of answers. Yes we know this war is different than any that came before, just like every war before this one was different to every war that came before that, what does that have to do with anything?
    If your opponent’s phrasing of the question is disingenuous, then answer the question he should have been asking: What is papi’s path to victory here? If its not an attack, then what is it? Then if you feel like expanding, you can explain WHY you believe that is the correct path to victory.
    Then ask your own question back, one that I am also quite curious to see an answer to if the article didn’t just seem to stop in the middle of nowhere: How long would goons be happy to sit in six star systems before coming out?

    What boggles my mind is that after this failed discussion that turned into nothing but playground posturing, you still went ahead and decided to post this. Why? Since all both of you do is state your side’s points without listening to what the other has to say, why not just write two articles, one each, on each side’s perspective of the war?

    June 10, 2021 at 8:08 AM
    • William Doe Rabid

      I think the “cracks” reasoning seems rather far-fetched. Should have a South Park “This is what actually what they believe” disclaimer on screen when we see Seir mention that talking point.

      If waiting for Goons to crack is the best reason Seir can think up with, then sapi’s in deep shit. For all intents and purposes I keep seeing how Goons morale keeps getting higher and the ISK war favoring them week by week in all the battles and trades. Expecting them to “crack” now moreso than anything through a morale standpoint really doesn’t likely. Seems like a rather poor excuse in Seir’s dodging of the question which he’s done so quite often.

      June 10, 2021 at 9:12 AM
      • Zaand William Doe

        In contrast to “cracks forming”, every day that we survive, every Papi fleet we dumpster, ever Azbel we kill, every time we ref a Papi jump bridge and every time Papi fails to ref ours, we add another layer of concrete on the dam. These cracks are 100% projection. Papi leadership can clearly see the cracks forming in their uber coalition, can see them growing by the day, and they are in complete damage control mode at this point.

        June 10, 2021 at 2:41 PM
        • T-P Zaand

          Exactly. If PAPI were constantly winning and achieving small objectives, the cracks narrative could make sense. When they’ve basically lost every single objective for 6 weeks, the imperium isn’t the alliance that needs to worry about cracks.

          All this is doing is fortifying Imperium resolve and morale.

          The “we need to see what works” narrative is also weak. The war has been going on for a year, nobody in PAPi game planned this out before now? This totally caught them off guard?

          June 10, 2021 at 3:09 PM
          • Garreth Vlox T-P

            “nobody in PAPi game planned this out before now? This totally caught them off guard?”

            We knew the answer to these questions after vily’s interview concerning the m2- debacle. He flat out admitted they had no extraction plans prior to the first fight and that they made no plan beyond “just jump everyone in and hope we win” for round 2. It should come as no big surprise there is no actual plan for the overall course of the war if they aren’t even going to bother to make a plan for the single largest pair of battles in eve history.

            June 10, 2021 at 10:19 PM
          • Guilford Australis Garreth Vlox

            The money quote was “we HAD to do something!” How revealing.

            Vily knew his line members would rebel if he stood down a supercapital fleet again, just like they rebelled after PGL stood down 900 pilots last week because he was terrified of losing the 40th attempt to anchor an Azbel in 3-DMQT.

            June 10, 2021 at 10:24 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Guilford Australis

            I don’t think vily gave a single shit about his line members, he made that clear when he admitted his half-witted attempt at a war might cost his coalition members everything they have.

            I think what vily meant was that if he stood down with half his allies shit trapped and didn’t at least APPEAR to try and get them out they flip on him right then and there.

            June 10, 2021 at 10:28 PM
          • Guilford Australis Garreth Vlox

            Yeah, that’s a good point. He wanted to prove himself. And oh how he did.

            June 10, 2021 at 10:34 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Guilford Australis

            Yep, there’s no taking that jump, or his spectacularly moronic comments in the interviews following the fight back. Vily now has what he always wanted. His claim to fame, his Hollywood star. Only his star isn’t for being awesome, or winning, or being a fantastic leader. It’s for being a dipshit who fed like no one has ever seen before because he made a bad call out of desperation because he didn’t bother to make a plan before starting the biggest fight ever.

            June 12, 2021 at 4:56 AM
        • Xelistren Zaand

          I was gonna point out that. Cracks form on the aggressor not the defender in war. Either A the aggressor end up with so bad of morale that they begin to fight amongst themselves or B the defender is already broken, and just needs to be mopped up. Given the morale level of the goons and the morale level of sapi, one can easily come to the conclusion that sapi is actually slowly falling apart. Hell members of sapi who play EE have been questioning the intelligence of the war for over 3 months now. With a siege it boils down to can the aggressor maintain morale longer then the defender can maintain supplies. This is more then just a siege now, given how others as slowly being forced to agree with the goons in the war creating hidden allies for them that could effectively turn the numbers advantage on it’s head. Increasing morale on the Goons side, due to successful defenses for weeks to months, paired with sapi attacks on everyone that isn’t part of sapi, effectively showing that their intents, creates a situation where the goons’ ability to recruit other alliances into their folds AND bring in others who want to become a part of a monumental event

          June 11, 2021 at 8:07 AM
    • Carvj94 Rabid

      Yea this was a pretty poor interview. Gray Doc was far to aggressive and asking leading questions while Seir Luciel was……. Seir Luciel.

      June 10, 2021 at 9:21 AM
    • Gray Doc Rabid

      Kudos to you, Rabid, for your insightful comments here. Your follow-up questions are really good.

      June 10, 2021 at 9:39 AM
    • Garreth Vlox Rabid

      “What is papi’s path to victory here?”

      They don’t know, it’s why none of them will touch this question with a 10 foot pole.

      June 10, 2021 at 12:31 PM
    • M. Macro Rabid

      Exactly my thoughts as someone watching from j space. This article makes INN look like a Buzzfeed blog for EVE players. The author must have felt particularly tickled by his last quip… embarrassing for everyone involved in the war.

      June 12, 2021 at 3:43 PM
  • Jeet_Kundo

    Too busy focusing on the dam we actively reinforce and mend and less on their own, thinking that just because it’s new that it is not poorly made. Kind of a Reddit-tier back and forth, or enlarging one that already happens in the comments of these articles.

    June 10, 2021 at 9:29 AM
  • You might want to entertain the notion that the Goons are being farmed for content. Penned up like cattle, PAPI can instigate whatever fight it wants from them and Goons are compelled to respond.

    From a purely strategic position, if the Goons are not willing to move beyond their constellation, and PAPI owns basically all the space, then it’s the Goons that have lost already.

    And yes you could argue that PAPI are stuck by their claims of completely annihilating the Goons. Goons are also stuck by staking their game and identity on holding 1DQ.

    Purely neutral perspective from me, I’m more curious to see what CCP will do about this. As a game dev having a long drawn out stalemate caused by the mechanics of the game, with both sides taking the most rational actions as the circumstances dictate, they have to be thinking about making some changes that free up the deadlock. And they have to do that without favouring one side over the other, since the numbers of players and the attention is significant.

    I mean, last stands are only meant to be a day or two at most. This is developing more into just status quo… and it won’t matter what taunts are thrown by either side. This will just become the new normal.

    Maybe this is what Goons and PAPI want? Waiting for some other distraction so that they can both walk away from the stalemate whilst saving face?

    June 10, 2021 at 10:21 AM
    • If this is the new status quo, which mostly seems to be the case, at least from a sapi perspective, then Serenity 2 has been achieved.

      Which seems to be the point Gray Doc is making in the last paragraph.

      June 10, 2021 at 10:29 AM
      • Plebble Plebble

        But CCP is in a difficult spot.

        They have no control over diplomatic aspects of the game.
        They cannot be seen to favour one side over the other.
        They cannot break the sandbox.

        The best they can do is probably to end scarcity and allow both sides to feel more comfortable playing less risk averse.

        June 10, 2021 at 10:36 AM
        • Ending scarcity changes Eve at a fundamental level though. You’d lose the “shakes” that most people feel quite strongly in PvP.

          I think both PAPI and Goonswarm represent final outcomes which are also at odds with the fundamental principles of Eve. They have both made space “safe”. There’s no way for anyone to penetrate Goon space, and PAPI has created a ring of non-aggressing friends.

          I don’t want a Blue Donut, but equally I don’t want the Goons to have made an unassailable stronghold. Either one is just not what Eve is about.

          June 10, 2021 at 1:29 PM
          • It is not unassailable, it will just be expensive to break. Which is reasonable, seeing as how it was very expensive to build in the first place.
            papi not being willing to risk caps is why it seems unbreakable.

            June 10, 2021 at 3:36 PM
          • I thought the reason they were unwilling to use their caps was because the layout of IDQ’s structures basically meant they would all be lost without actually accomplishing the mission?

            June 11, 2021 at 6:46 AM
          • Novartis Tabletop Teacher

            Well they could, but the bill per timer per structure is like, at least a trillion or two each(assuming they use caps too). Combine that with every single structure at the KS grid, you’re looking at the very least 100 trillion butcher bill to clean it up.

            June 11, 2021 at 7:23 AM
          • William Doe Novartis

            Exactly, hence why so many Imperium members basically say why sapi is “risk averse” or not willing to “pay the iron price” and other terms to describe their cowardice.

            CRAPI may be cowards, but they at least have enough functioning brain cells to realize after M2 that making a real effort and putting their capitals in the fight to finally break into 1DQ will be a losing proposition for them, but it’s really their best chance to take the Imperial Throne system down now at this point, except the trillions of ISK they lose for it is what’s scaring the crap out of them. They can’t half-ass it either, they need to fully commit and not chicken out after say several hundred caps die after the first wave.

            June 11, 2021 at 8:41 AM
          • This maybe a stupid question, but do they have the 100 trillion in ship assets to do that? I mean they may have the liquid ISK to pay for it, but even with cash production takes time.

            Actually does anyone have the ISK to pay for all that? From the April 2021 financial report, the entire game as a production value of about 8 trillion/month (at the peak times last year), and the total ISK available in game is 1400 Trillion ISK (presumably including inactive characters/dead corporations). 7% of the entire games economy seems like a pretty steep price tag.

            June 11, 2021 at 9:32 AM
          • William Doe Tabletop Teacher

            I wouldn’t know to be honest. You’d have to ask the people who’ve taken a good look at the numbers. I’m sure they do have the liquid ISK to afford things, but stuff like production like you said is something that would be difficult for them. Also I’ve seen people talking about the scarcity changes too which is another speedbump.

            If there’s anyone even remotely close with the ISK to pay for it all, it is sapi though. When you got almost all of null blued to you, you damn well better. Look at the rental empire that PanFam has, that FRT got going on, and TEST is trying to expand as probably the real reason why this war exists in the first place.

            June 11, 2021 at 11:16 AM
          • Novartis Tabletop Teacher

            hmm, let’s reverse the scenario. Let’s imagine you’re the allied force in World War 2. Imagine a group of your strategist and mathematician calculate that to defeat the axis, you need to sacrifice 7% of the world economy. Now, will you do it? 7% of world economy still seems like a small price compared to you being spanked to death by Germany. This is the reason why goons keep taunting papi as a coward. If papi initial narrative that goons is bad for the game and they must be exterminated ‘for the good of the game’, then isn’t the 7% of the game economy is a small price ‘for the good of the game’?

            P.S if you look at papi initial narrative, they claimed to have the biggest war coffer, the biggest capital stash(which now doesn’t matter if they don’t wanna use it at all), the best FC, and the best strategist in EVE universe, then based on their claim won’t it be easy to assume papi have (in theory) the capability to accept the bill?

            June 11, 2021 at 12:43 PM
          • No the analogy doesn’t work, since the allies in WW2 weren’t the aggressor. Unless by reversing the scenario you mean we reverse the roles? But then we reverse the motivations too. Not even that we could apply the same motivations to the situation here, since a loss in Eve whilst bad for the ego doesn’t mean literal death.

            A more apt analogy would be Germany WW1, where they had already invaded France but the cost was too high to finish the job so they just dug in. Why would they need to? They had already won ground.

            I think the point isn’t clear though. Is PAPI actually in possession of enough ISK to invade 1DQ. Ignore the propaganda and grand standing, is it reasonable to assume they have enough capital and capitals to take the Goon capital*?

            The estimate of 100 trillion ISK is just a guess, but is it actually possible for any alliance to gather the resources to crack 1DQ?

            * I think this pun might have cost me all my credibility… or social capital.

            June 11, 2021 at 1:40 PM
          • Novartis Tabletop Teacher

            Okay my bad, I just love WW2 and love to make analogy from it, however the main argument still remains. 7% of the world economy is a cheap price if your enemy had swore to destroy you(and they have both the means and sheer will to do it)

            Does PAPI is in possession of the isk required? Let’s do some rough math. Let’s say, we assume that 50% of the monthly production value happened in null, and assume PAPI have a share of 50% of that monthly production. That means PAPI contribute to a quarter of monthly production. Let’s also assume that the average of monthly production is just, say 6 trillion/month. That means each month PAPI made 1.5 trillion isk. For how long this war had progress, PAPI has made 18 trillion isk, 18% of what the raze of 1DQ required. If we also take this assumption to several years before, it’ll burn PAPI revenue for the last 5 and a half year. However since most of PAPI major player had exist for more than that time line, theoretically PAPI had the assets ready for the 100 trillion butcher bill. It’s just that the total war of anihilation of capital required isn’t what PAPI ready to accept.

            June 11, 2021 at 1:54 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Tabletop Teacher

            “This maybe a stupid question, but do they have the 100 trillion in ship assets to do that?”

            No, vily in his infinite wisdom opened his mouth pre-m2- and bragged that they could easily replace 100 titan losses (which at the time would have come to about 8 trillion given that each titan at the time on average tan about 80 billion). Then scarcity happened and their ability to replace titans was cut almost in half, and then they lost 250 titans in m2- and then followed that up for another 400 dreads trying to free their trapped titans…. This is why they sit in t5z and talk shit, they lack the commitment and will required to finish what they started.

            June 12, 2021 at 5:07 AM
          • From what you’ve said it sounds like less a lack of commitment, but more a lack of ships.

            June 12, 2021 at 1:54 PM
          • William Doe Tabletop Teacher

            In this case, it’s pretty interchangeable. They don’t want to pay the cost (whether say 10 Trillion or a 100 Trillion) to force goons to go into hiding and striking them from the shadows if 1DQ falls. CRAPI knows even if they pull it off they’ll have paid considerably more than what Goons in ISK and resources did in defense for it.

            Your mindset of thinking Goons having an impenetrable stronghold is pretty much a strawman. Can it be broken? Yes. Is it this unassailable fortress? Mostly, but it’s not invincible. It just requires enough effort and some luck by a group of people willing enough to pull it off. Currently sapi doesn’t look like they’re that group of people unless they manage to harden the fuck up.

            sapi’s narrative has shifted so much since the very started, it’s well documented. We’re finally at the ‘siege’ state and going into week 8, but due to sapi faceplanting over and over it seems like this may go another several weeks before possibly seeing if a new phase of the war begins.

            June 12, 2021 at 3:19 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Tabletop Teacher

            They can absolutely accomplish the mission. But the losses would be enormous and papi is terrified of losing that many key assets, because they don’t actually like each other and the second one of them is without their capital assets the rest will promptly slit their throat.

            June 12, 2021 at 5:04 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Tabletop Teacher

            “I don’t want the Goons to have made an unassailable stronghold”

            There is NOTHING unassailable about 1dq1, it can be taken. It just requires a coalition with the SPINE to absorb the massive losses they would have to take to get the job done. PAPI leadership does not possess a spine of that caliber by their own admission.

            June 10, 2021 at 10:24 PM
          • Taunting your opponent for cowardice usually means you need them to make a mistake so you can get back the advantage. As a low sec scrub looking in from the outside, my advice is that perhaps you could tell PAPI their mothers are hamsters and their father’s smell like elderberries from atop your wall?

            Happy to concede I’m wrong on this though, I must have been confused by some Goons saying 1DQ was their impregnable stronghold.

            June 11, 2021 at 6:50 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Tabletop Teacher

            “Taunting your opponent for cowardice usually means you need them to make a mistake so you can get back the advantage.”

            Usually, however in this war, papi’s comedy of errors is well recorded and public record. In this case it’s just the imperium reminding papi of all the repeated misteps they have made in this war and their leaders public comments about fearing massive losses. In short, it’s not taunting you opponent to call them a coward after their own leaders admit they fear massive losses.

            June 11, 2021 at 11:25 PM
          • Xelistren Tabletop Teacher

            1DQ is able to be taken, but sapi is facing 3 major things.
            1. the bill is expensive
            2. a loss means the war is over goons win.
            3. possible M2 event where even though it could have ended the war one way it goes the other due to server issues.
            because of these 3 reasons sapi has only 1 real option and that is either wait until the goons outnumber them in actives, or give up and get mocked for the loss. the smart play would have been to start the war as close to 1DQ as possible and take it before most of the rest of Delve or Fountain. Now 1DQ would take most if not all player (including inactives) of sapi to take 1DQ. The defenders has these benefits to use as needed.
            1. caps are already in place.
            2. cryo jammer can stay on 24/7 so that no one can bring in additional caps.
            3.Each win is causing positive morale for the goons and negative morale for sapi.
            1 and 2 on those benefits means that sapi has to figure out how to remove all caps from 1DQ with only subcaps which is a tall task in and of itself. Basically the full conclusion of this post is that goons can handle massive active disadvantage, and would still be able to come out on top. sapi made a grave error not pushing to 1DQ right away because of compression effects. Lastly while 1DQ is able to be taken down it is no longer (to sapi) because of the compression that has occurred in their space.

            June 11, 2021 at 4:50 PM
          • Thanks for all the info guys. To me it does look like a mechanical problem, in that PAPI would be stupid to waste that much ISK is taking 1DQ, and Goons would be stupid for leaving it.

            Either side taking action looks like an alliance ending mistake, and I’m nowhere near smart enough to think of a solution for either side… but it looks like PAPI and Goons can’t either.

            June 11, 2021 at 7:42 PM
          • Novartis Tabletop Teacher

            I want to break down more of the current condition. Goons, in all of its option choice, is quite logical. True, they had lost numerous KS in the progress, but all their choice is to make sure they not exhausting any of their vital assets(remember goons final objective is only to survive), hence why the goons assets hotspot in the last constellation, while this choice is also influenced by papi choice in how they try to conquer delve. Instead of aiming straight to 1DQ and shatter all goons hope once for all, papi choose to pluck all the low hanging fruit first, hence once all the low hanging fruit dried up, they had difficulty to get the boost to reach the fruit at the peak.

            They have the chance to do direct attack and destroy the army HQ directly and leave the army in disarray, yet the choose to rout all the divisions, battalion, brigade and platoon toward the army HQ only make sure the HQ become a very massive nut to crack

            June 12, 2021 at 4:21 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Tabletop Teacher

            “but it looks like PAPI and Goons can’t either.”

            Goons don’t have to do anything but sit where they are and wait for papi to keep fucking up. All the pressure is on papi, all the action to be taken is on papi. Your post is typical papi spin.

            June 12, 2021 at 5:02 AM
          • Xelistren Tabletop Teacher

            Goons already have. It only takes them breaking the morale of the Horde in this war. once that happens sapi will not just fall to the wolves it will devour itself.

            June 15, 2021 at 7:21 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Tabletop Teacher

            “Ending scarcity changes Eve at a fundamental level though. You’d lose the “shakes” that most people feel quite strongly in PvP.”

            Bullshit, those shakes existed before scarcity was even a gleam in CCP’s devs dim bulb of a brain.

            June 12, 2021 at 5:00 AM
    • Novartis Tabletop Teacher

      it’s not the mechanic that make it impossible. It’s possible. Remember, every time the offense and defense have an arms race, offense would always win in the end. The main problem is that PAPI(or papi no caps), doesn’t willing to use any capital ship, the game balancer. It’s like you play Call of Duty in multiplayer combat and expecting yourself to win by only using knife. Is it possible? one in some trillion trillion trillion something chance? yes. But is it realistic? F**k no. That’s what PAPI currently do. They made the problem itself by forcing the goons into single constellation with only two entry point. PAPI own choice is the reason this chokehold and stalemate happened in the first place. It’s not entirely CCP fault. Perhaps, if PAPI is willing to use caps…….

      P.S if u think assaulting 1DQ is entirely impossible, read some other post here. They state exactly that it’s possible to assault and raze 1DQ to the ground. The problem is are the reds ready to pay the bill?

      June 10, 2021 at 2:20 PM
      • Garreth Vlox Novartis

        “It’s like you play Call of Duty in multiplayer combat and expecting yourself to win by only using knife”

        This is the perfect description of how papi (too scared to use caps) is currently playing the game.

        June 10, 2021 at 10:25 PM
    • Last time I checked, the cows don’t murder the farmers.

      June 10, 2021 at 2:45 PM
    • Gray Doc Tabletop Teacher

      The “farmed for content” idea might make sense until you read any of the last six weeks War Updates by Ban Syrin. Every week, week after week, we see fewer and fewer battles. It’s getting to the point where we had much more “content” before the war. Look at May’s MER when it comes out. The destruction numbers will be way down, probably very far below pre-war numbers. In other words, the current situation is the opposite of content. Let me shift your analogy a bit: if you want to fish with the hope of catching any, you gotta put your line in the water first. That’s just not happening now.

      June 10, 2021 at 2:45 PM
      • It’s more like shooting fish in barrel isn’t as much fun as they thought it would be, to nudge your analogy a bit a bit further. Simply since the numbers are down doesn’t mean the farm isn’t there, just that it isn’t productive, or in a much demand as predicted.

        June 11, 2021 at 6:35 AM
        • Arrendis Tabletop Teacher

          Except they’re not shooting fish in a barrel. They’re losing the engagements. The fish are shooting them. And no, I expect being shot by fish in a barrel isn’t nearly as much fun as they thought shooting those fish would be. 😉

          Let’s drop the analogies completely. PAPI says we’re ‘contained’. They’re seeing this as a siege, like the Alamo or something. But we’re making money in other parts of space. We’re resupplying and in no danger of running out of war materiel. This is not a siege. At best, it’s an occupation, and it’s an occupation that can only last as long as the blue donut remains intact—something PAPI’s leadership publicly insists very loudly that they don’t want, except that they’ll all stay friends.

          We’re under very little functional pressure. To dip back into analogies, we’ve collapsed as far as external pressure (the number of people attacking us) can take us, and internal pressure (the number of people available to defend the reduced exposed surface area) has balanced things out. And if we were really stuck in one constellation, that might drive some of us a little batty. As we speak, though? I’m making money in highsec and lowsec. We have alts. We’re not limited to anything.

          So we can keep on doing what we’re doing. Can PAPI? Can they actually keep their whole vast supercoalition united without demonstrating that they’re lying every time they insist there’s no blue donut?

          FRT wants AoM dead. AoM’s part of Legacy. Game it out. Which is more important to Vily and PGL? FRT’s help in delve, or AoM?

          If it’s FRT, then how can any member of Legacy not immediately be concerned that they’ll be the next to get left for the wolves if FRT wants more?

          If it’s AoM, how well can TEST hold the line in delve if they’re fighting FRT on the other side of Legacy space? Will Horde just sit idle in T5Z doing TEST’s bidding while TEST shoots another member of PandaFam?

          Either blue donut holds, in which case, blue donut, and all of the PAPI leadership have so little regard for their own members that they can’t be honest with them, or it doesn’t. And if it doesn’t, well, TEST is next.

          June 11, 2021 at 2:13 PM
          • The fish may be shooting, but they rarely shoot first… and they also have no option but to shoot back, lest they lose even the barrel.

            I wonder how far we can stretch this analogy?

            Look there’s a fairly easy test for this argument. Next time PAPI try to take the system with assault frigates, don’t respond. That sounds really dumb right, of course you’re not going to just let them do it.

            And that’s just it. PAPI decides when the fights happen, Goons don’t. They have you over a barrel on this. Or in the barrel. Or maybe doing a barrel roll.

            June 11, 2021 at 7:20 PM
          • Arrendis Tabletop Teacher

            The fish may be shooting, but they rarely shoot first… and they also have no option but to shoot back, lest they lose even the barrel.

            The fish don’t have to shoot first. The enemy started this war openly claiming an agenda of extermination. The fish just need to survive.

            PAPI can decide when the fights on their agenda happen, sure… except, you know, that they can only actually attack during our vulnerability window. Anything outside that window’s useless. They can’t entosis the ihubs, which is what they need. They can RF a structure, or drop one of their own, but that produces a predictable timer, so we can make sure to lock everything down for hours ahead of time.

            What’s more, in order to do either, they need to:
            A) Get fleets pinged and formed up before we can respond.
            B) If they want to drop a structure, they get into the system for long enough to clear bubbles off of the in-gate that they can bring the Rorqual in to drop the structure
            C) If they want to RF one of our structures, they’ve got to get enough firepower into the system to do it and simultaneously be able to deal with the response, because they’re not going to have the time to RF it without having a fleet or two dropped on them.

            All of that’s predicated on them getting their fleets formed, into the system, and through the bubbles in numbers enough to win a fight before we (and both sides see one another’s pings, so we all know when anyone’s forming) can get carriers/supers undocked and move fighters… 1,000km. Anything they don’t have in by the time our capitals undock isn’t getting in, and they know it.

            Even after the caps are formed up, we can keep forming subcap fleets, because at worst, those cap pilots have alts in the subcap fleets. Putting your fighters on a gate just isn’t that hard, and following target broadcasts with them just isn’t that attention-draining.

            As for us not deciding when the fights happen… Heh. We send fleets out every day to kill their ratters, their miners, ref their JBs… or just straight up kill their fortizars. if PAPI’s not giving us fights when we want, we go find them on our own. Like I said: we are not trapped in a single constellation, no matter how much they may want to claim we are.

            June 12, 2021 at 12:58 AM
          • Oh I’m not arguing that Goons haven’t done a grand job in bolting the doors on 1DQ (or sealing up the barrel). I’m just arguing that they’re there, and have been put there by PAPI. I doubt any Goon would have this situation by choice.

            Or would they? As you’ve mentioned you can apparently get fights on command as well. So if Goons are happy, and PAPI is happy, does the invasion of 1DQ need to take place?

            Rather interestingly, from my outsider perspective, PAPI is unable to pay the bill to take 1DQ with PAPI and Goons saying they are just unwilling to, and Goons unable to break out of 1DQ (in the sense of taking sov on more systems) with Goons and PAPI saying they’re just unwilling to.

            To use the time honoured quote, “It’s okay, I didn’t want Delve/1DQ anyway.”

            It seems like peace is more or less secured at this point, with both fairly damning outcomes. PAPI has it’s safe space blue donut, and Goons has it’s safe space 1DQ.

            Yay?

            June 12, 2021 at 2:24 PM
          • William Doe Tabletop Teacher

            What’s the point of taking more SOV systems when you’re clearly still outnumbered by several magnitudes? Even INIT, Bastion, TNT, and other non-Goon Imperium groups have little to no SOV but they’re still kicking about and recently INIT has shown to outmaneuver and completely outplay the so called “elite pvp’ers” of PanFam.

            If SOV is all that matters, then, sure the coping blue donut got that on lock. But it won’t be permanent. Look at FRT, they’ve been repelled by We Form Volta and Freemen for weeks now and have yet to make any actual realistic gains whatsoever there.

            As long as Vily and Piggles are running sapi, then they’ll keep throwing billions worth of ships into a meatgrinder. At what point will Gobbins and Norhaus and the rest of PanFam leadership say we’re done with you idiots and pull a majority of their forces back to go home. When that happens, then Goons will come out of 1DQ and retake all the lost holdings and SOV sapi stole.

            June 12, 2021 at 3:24 PM
          • Make no mistake, nothing here is permanent. Things will change, just because Goons are backed into a corner, doesn’t mean it’s the end of them.

            I hope it’s not the end. I can’t put my finger on why, but I’d rather the Goons win this one. And again for reasons I can’t explain, Eve without Goons would just feel… less.

            June 12, 2021 at 5:24 PM
          • William Doe Tabletop Teacher

            It shouldn’t be. After all, for Goons, survival is top priority, it’s the reasoning why they’re here and defiant to the coping blue donut. “Extermination” was the exact line of reasoning that Vily wanted initially by eliminating Goons from the game before moving goalposts over and over.

            Goons will and have lost many things, ISK, ships, sov, structures. But one thing they haven’t lost is the will to fight and to survive against a larger force.

            June 13, 2021 at 12:03 AM
          • Malcanis Tabletop Teacher

            It’s because the alternative is a dreary interregnum of the “Council of Wardens” fellating each other’s egos and making sure that no one in 0.0 isn’t a part of their bland renterspace regime. How long it would last is anyone’s guess. Whether EVE would survive is an easier one.

            June 15, 2021 at 4:26 PM
          • Arrendis Tabletop Teacher

            Except that PAPI insists they don’t want the blue donut… but the moment it’s gone, TEST is dead.

            June 12, 2021 at 5:47 PM
          • Dripple Arrendis

            You still cling to “The fish just need to survive.” narrative?
            Would you still count a peace deal as a win where Imperium can keep their last constellation, while PAPI gets to keep everything they have conquered this far.
            Would you still call that a win or is the win a scenario where Imperium reconquer their lost SOV?

            I mean if O-M is all you need to make you happy, I personally would be willing to make the deal, heck you could even get the claim that you have won.

            everyone would be happy
            -Imperium “survives”
            -Imperium could still warp between their faction forts in 1DQ spamming “we survived”
            -PAPI would divide rest of the nullsec to our “rental empires” and null sec would move on to next era.

            For PAPI the win is in 1DQ, but for goons (if they decide to stay as real nullsec entity) road to victory is way longer, its a road where they have to wage offensive war to conquer atleast Delve for them to live on.

            June 12, 2021 at 2:58 PM
          • Arrendis Dripple

            Would you still count a peace deal as a win where Imperium can keep their last constellation, while PAPI gets to keep everything they have conquered this far.
            Would you still call that a win or is the win a scenario where Imperium reconquer their lost SOV?

            Would I call that a win? I’d call it a PAPI loss, given their stated goals. At the same time, it’s not going to happen. We have no interest in such a deal. We don’t need it.

            You ask ‘if O-M is all you need to make you happy’, but I’d say that’s conflating two very different things. Saying that TEST is failing to achieve their victory conditions is not the same as saying ‘we’re happy with this situation’.

            I’ll be happy when TEST is broken and bleeding, everything they own destroyed, and their leadership utterly discredited as the membership recognizes just how badly they have been lied to. And I have absolutely no doubt that that will happen.

            June 12, 2021 at 5:55 PM
          • Arrendis Arrendis

            And let me just make something clear here, because after a little thought, I realize that it’s easy to misunderstand why.

            It’s easy to read this and think ‘lol, we hurt the goons, and now they’re mad’. And I am mad. But not because you’ve attacked us, or taken our space, or blued up literally everyone you could.

            It’s because you’re so fucking pathetic that your very failure is insulting.

            You want to attack us? Attack us. It’s EVE, that’s the game. Bring all the friends you can find. That’s all totally in-bounds. Burn our space. If we can’t stop you, then it should burn. Hell, even lie about it all.

            Just stop being so bad at it. I demand the same thing of my villains and enemies as I do my politicians: I know you’re gonna try to fuck me, just do it well.

            Right from the start, you idiots have been an insult to that idea. Even your lies have been shit.

            Let’s not forget, this all starts off with Vily and Piggles swearing that even though they were asking to be let out of the Non-Invasion Pact, they weren’t planning to invade. Literally asking to end a deal that said only ‘we won’t invade’, but somehow still insisting they wouldn’t invade.

            So we prepared for an invasion, and even before the NIP was formally over, Vily had posted to the Legacy forums that yes, they were invading. My gosh! WHO could have seen through that brilliant deception?

            And it’s been more of the same, ever since. One fucking weak-ass, insultingly transparent lie after another. If you’re gonna lie, do it well. If you want to engage in deception and misdirection, great! Just don’t be so bad at it that nobody takes it seriously.

            Then Vily’s on to claiming he got fired. Except, you know, it takes me all of 10 minutes to go from ‘I didn’t say that, but I was’ to admitting he wasn’t fired, all the way to acknowledging that Mittens, the guy he publicly blames for his departure from Goons, was singing his praises while someone else gave him a hard time, but he refused to talk to Mittens about it.

            Again and again, transparent bullshit. Right down to ‘there’s totally a plan, and we’re going to have exciting new doctrines this week’ for the last three town halls. Seriously, Progod should just record that shit and let it play out while he smokes a bowl, he’ll do better. Especially when he’s the guy actively selling ‘the plan’… until suddenly it doesn’t work, and he’s on reddit defending himself to a PL guy with ‘hey, it’s not my plan, I’m just the only one who can play before work’.

            Pathetic. Six months now, and you can’t seal the deal with 150,000 characters. Jesus, if you’d just blops’d in 10 bombers a week to logoff in 1dq for all that time, you’d have enough firepower to nuke the entire supercapital fleet as soon as fighters were too far away to get back in time and tether.

            That’d be utterly laughable. But let’s face it, it’d be more effective than the bullshit you’ve been trying.

            And as anyone who’s been in any fleet comms with me can tell you, having to deal with incompetent idiots? That tends to piss me off. So yeah, I’ll be happy when the absolute insult that is TEST’s incompetent bullshit is left in ruins.

            June 12, 2021 at 8:07 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Tabletop Teacher

            “The fish may be shooting, but they rarely shoot first”

            Shooting first or last is unimportant when you win regardless. papi has done nothing but feed for a month and a half.

            June 12, 2021 at 4:52 AM
    • Garreth Vlox Tabletop Teacher

      “You might want to entertain the notion that the Goons are being farmed for content. Penned up like cattle, PAPI can instigate whatever fight it wants from them and Goons are compelled to respond.”

      So when you goons are being “farmed” you mean that papi feeding them double digit billion isk wins DAILY is a BAD thing for goons?

      June 10, 2021 at 10:22 PM
      • No, just that one of the harder things to do in Eve is guarantee a fight when you want it. With Goons penned up PAPI can instigate a fight whenever they choose to.

        That swings both ways though, so maybe Goons are entirely happy to have an enemy they can trigger on their door step too.

        June 11, 2021 at 6:40 AM
        • Garreth Vlox Tabletop Teacher

          “No, just that one of the harder things to do in Eve is guarantee a fight when you want it. ”

          papi (no caps because they are scared to use them) has the unique position of being able to guarantee a fight at any time on any day they choose. All they have to do is make a serious play for 1dq1, they just admittedly lack the spine to do so.

          June 12, 2021 at 4:51 AM
          • … yes? That’s kind of my point.

            June 12, 2021 at 1:56 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Tabletop Teacher

            And I was just pointing out it won’t happen because they lack the testicular fortitude required to generate such a fight.

            June 13, 2021 at 12:17 AM
          • Malcanis Garreth Vlox

            “We could fight whenever we want. We just don’t want to”

            I mean that’s refreshingly honest, with us if not with yourself.

            June 15, 2021 at 4:27 PM
  • Elthar Nox

    If INN don’t get the exclusive on the Thanksgiving conversation I’m never reading it again 🙂 great article. Obviously I’ll side with my editor – Seir is mainlining the koolaid!

    But it’s a great insight into the dueling mindsets of this war!

    June 10, 2021 at 10:31 AM
    • Gray Doc Elthar Nox

      And don’t forget the Christmas after that, for PAPI will still probably be in “containment” mode while denying Serenity 2 is upon us.

      June 10, 2021 at 2:42 PM
      • Rhivre Gray Doc

        Wait, are you signing up now for the exclusive?

        June 10, 2021 at 3:08 PM
  • Guilford Australis

    As the extensive participation data posted to Reddit yesterday by Normann Tivianne demonstrates, Imperium participation is increasing while PAPI (particularly Legacy) participation is tanking. So if PAPI is sitting around waiting for cracks to form and the dam to burst, they’re too dense to see or accept that the cracks have formed *on their own side,* not in Goon defenses.

    Precisely as The Mittani predicted at the beginning of this war, PAPI dragged this thing out for a farking eternity until their participation sloped from a 3:1 advantage in fleet comps to roughly 1:1 parity with The Imperium, at which point Gobbins declared their new strategy was to sit right on top of The Imperium until we stop playing the game.

    PAPI line members (including Seir) love to mock The Imperium for accusing them of “not winning fast enough.” A cheeky deflection – for two reasons. First, PAPI is not winning. They declared for months their victory condition was “extermination” of Goonswarm because we’re bad for EVE, then later revised that to driving us into lowsec, THEN (once both of those goals became self-evidently impossible due to their incompetence and weak leadership) that “containment” was the new victory. But Gobbins promised his people 1DQ, so they’re left staring at a stupid situation they themselves created by driving 30,000 sweaty, angry Goons into a small constellation with only two entry gates with no plan to conquer it other than hoping we stop playing EVE. Fantastic leadership, PAPI. *Slow Clap.*

    June 10, 2021 at 12:01 PM
    • J Moravia Guilford Australis

      Do you remember when the PAPI keyboard warriors were all over Reddit trying to claim that Goons were creating thousands upon thousands of brand new accounts to replace all the people who were leaving the alliance? Because I remember.

      June 13, 2021 at 2:45 AM
  • Garreth Vlox

    “mining, building, ratting, carrying on with their life.”

    Your not sharing reality with the rest of us if you thinks goons won’t constantly drop on people doing these things next door to their capital system…

    June 10, 2021 at 12:30 PM
    • Plebble Garreth Vlox

      You sir, are clearly misinformed. Delve is perfectly safe to rat and/or mine in.

      June 10, 2021 at 1:26 PM
      • Zaand Plebble

        There is still a super umbrella in Delve, just not the one Papi wants.

        June 10, 2021 at 2:44 PM
  • Zaand

    So Papi’s strategy at this point it to continuously smash their head into a concrete wall and wait for cracks to appear. Ok, good luck with that. Maybe 1DQ will run out of ammo, then it’s all over.

    June 10, 2021 at 2:35 PM
    • William Doe Zaand

      Is running out of ammo actually possible say within a year or two? I ask because as stated before, I don’t actually play the game.

      June 10, 2021 at 11:56 PM
      • Plebble William Doe

        No. The Imperium is still able to resupply from highsec and manufacturing is still ongoing inside the last constellation.

        June 11, 2021 at 6:11 AM
  • Aaron Kitchell

    I like the dam analogy. But there aren’t cracks forming, the dam is getting stronger and the water level is dropping.

    June 10, 2021 at 3:58 PM
    • Finkfinger Aaron Kitchell

      The analogy is flawed. The analogy compares The Imperium (a coalition of players) to a dam and PAPI (a coalition of players) to water. Water versus dam has a natural superiority in the long term however both The Imperium and PAPI are just player alliances and neither has a natural superiority in the long term. So it is not fair to compare The Imperium to a dam and Papi to water.

      June 10, 2021 at 5:00 PM
  • JD Martin

    CCP should mirror the test server and put 1dq on a reinforced node. Then get everyone have the battle on there so we can see just how stable the servers are/will be. My guess is with 4000+ goons already in system with their fighters all out, only 1000 papi would ever get loaded and would probably die before the next 1000 showed up. CCP would probably get a ton of good data from it.

    June 10, 2021 at 10:29 PM
    • Garreth Vlox JD Martin

      We have no idea how many would load because vily yolo’d directly into a fighter swarm with 5k ppl.

      There were ways to get people into the system and give it time to let them load with out breaking the server and papi didn’t even try to do that.

      June 11, 2021 at 12:30 AM
  • J Moravia

    Gray Doc: “What is PAPI waiting for?”
    Seir Luciel: “PAPI isn’t waiting for anything. But we’re waiting for cracks to form. But we’re not waiting for anything.”

    June 11, 2021 at 10:28 PM
    • Garreth Vlox J Moravia

      Also Seir Leciel: We aren’t losing per say every time we feed 20-100 billion in fleet losses, we are just killing time waiting for cracks to form.

      June 12, 2021 at 4:58 AM
  • Dripple

    Seir Lucien is pointing exactly what he means with “cracks” but goons choose to ignore it, goons are pushed into 7 systems and their current playstyle is either mine in Hsec or circle jerk in 1DQ THATS IT.
    Imperium keeps loudly screaming “we are happy, this is what we want” but how many of Imperium members really want to be contained into 7 systems, spinning their ships and get told that the douche act in INN will keep their morale up.
    How long can Imperium convince “this is the gameplay you want and this will be all you get till panfam leaves and they must leave”

    while rest of the nullsec is adapting to industrial/scarcity changes by, ratting (evident by shiny lossmails) and mining.
    Currently goons gameplay is limited to things they can do in their prison and all I see is circle jerking and telling each other “how you are right, when you claim that this is the future goons want”
    If goons want to be free they must have balls to gate their supers to T5Z and take back their sov, make no mistake of your current situation, you are living in a prison.

    June 12, 2021 at 2:11 AM
    • Garreth Vlox Dripple

      “goons are pushed into 7 systems and their current playstyle is either mine in Hsec or circle jerk in 1DQ THATS IT.”

      lol so is papi’s playstyle, the alternative is to die to imperium hotdroppers or feed 100 billion in hacs and assault frigs to supers in 3-d

      June 12, 2021 at 4:59 AM
      • Dripple Garreth Vlox

        I don’t see much hotdropping done by Imperium in north.

        June 12, 2021 at 2:31 PM
    • chthulan Dripple

      As has been said earlier, we goons have alts and jump clones (gasp, yes!) . So we can krab or whatever elsewhere….

      June 13, 2021 at 8:25 PM
    • Sirhan Blixt Dripple

      Christ, man– you’re like somebody ordered Seir Luciel on wish dot com.

      June 15, 2021 at 6:40 PM
  • Elithiel en Gravonere

    What seems to be missing from the multitude of conversations is thinking Goons are just sitting in 1dq and not fighting back outside of our constellation. We’ve been clearing the backfields of PAPI’s home regions in our own burning the rest of the galaxy missions and on top of that, we’ve been dropping on anything that rats and mines in and around Delve, even a venture. Every week, in these other battlefields, we are winning and shooting our own fish, in their own barrels. On top of that, it seems Volta are wiping the floor in every engagement they’ve had with Fraternity so the little guys are also winning against the blue donut. It is time every smaller alliance, helps or joins in smashing this Blue Donut and making room for the little guys again. Because otherwise, we are stuck with Serenity 2.0.

    June 14, 2021 at 3:02 AM