“Git Gud”: Reframing Goon Identity

2021-06-28

Header Art by Major Sniper

Editor’s note: This is a companion piece to Gray Doc’s article, “Git Gud: Reframing the Delve Miracle“. Seir Luciel is an editor at INN, and a member of Pandemic Horde Inc.

When Goons first entered the game, “the veterans of EVE Online laughed at the naivety of this swarming pack of new players in terrible ships” writes Andrew Groen. “Goonfleet embraced this idea, and co-opted the idea of the ‘swarm’ for its own self-image. Its pilots adopted the mascot of a chubby, cigar-smoking bumblebee wearing a World War 1-era German helmet, which they appropriately named “Fat Bee.” Their battlecry: “We’re terrible at this game!”

What a battlecry! At the time, Goons openly disdained those who were “good” at the game, who took things so seriously, who looked down on others. What Goons were bringing to the game of EVE was a new culture, a new ideology to New Eden: the point of video games wasn’t to be “the best;” the point was to have the best time. If you’re having more fun than the other guys, even if you’re losing, you’re winning. It was a beautiful philosophy, one gaming culture at large can learn from. It prioritized what was really important while simultaneously forging bonds of friendship between like-minded, fun-prioritizing, elite-disdaining individuals.

Groen writes that “the Goons prided themselves on being the worst. So when they lost, they laughed. When they won, they laughed harder. The Goons represented a new crop of EVE Online players, and some of the old guard didn’t like them at all. Groups like Band of Brothers tended to view them as disrespectful of the history and power structure of the game.”

A Break From Tradition

The old guard – groups like Band of Brothers – were traditionalists. Power was power. Wealth was wealth. Hard-earned, well-practiced, highly-refined economic and military machines were what one took pride in: being “good at the game.” Being able to stick up your nose and look down on the other members of the game for not “getting gud.” In short, elitism. Behind this ethic was a simple, understandable logic: games are meant to be excelled at. Why play a game if you don’t try to play it well? Why not be well and do well at whatever you are doing? After all, isn’t winning more fun than losing? Isn’t not getting blown up while killing the other guy more fun than going down in a fireball while the enemy taunts you in local?

But as Groen notes, “behind the irreverent attitude, there was a social genius to the way the Goons approached the game. In essence, their morale was unassailable because they deliberately under-inflated their self-image. According to some sources, the name ‘Goon’ was intended as a way of turning the stereotype of basement-dwelling internet cretins against itself by publicly owning it. The Goons of EVE Online demeaned themselves publicly and claimed not to care what happened to their ships or their territory.”

We’ve come a long way since then. Now Goons loudly remind the rest of New Eden that their becoming as powerful as they have become is no accident. They will tell you that they’ve worked hard, that they’ve earned their stripes, and if the rest of the galaxy wants to earn respect they ought to start by getting some of the “gumption” Goons had. It’s a familiar tune; its the same one used by Band of Brothers (once the mortal enemy of Goons), still called up from the dead occasionally in order to distinguish Goon identity from the risen specter. “See how different we are?” they say, pointing to the tired ghost. How frequently, when attempting to formulate one’s own identity, one conjures up an Other, usually a straw man, to point to and say “Look! We aren’t like them!” Identity is often also formulated in the negative: not by what one is, but by ideas of what one is not.

The Laughing Specter

It is here that the conjured ghost of BoB begins to laugh, a dark and scraggly laugh, at the Goons who conjured it. An eerie silence falls upon the hushing Goon crowd; even Moomin, a master of the necromantic arts, stumbles back from the laughing ghost, an ill omen, summoned before the Goon assembly for their oft-repeated Identity Affirmation Assembly.

What does that laughter mean? Does the ghost laugh because Goons have since forfeited what once was, perhaps, their greatest strength? Groen recounts that the Goons’ former position of elite-disdaining nonchalance “was a stark contrast to how things had been run before the Goons’ arrival in New Eden. For some of the best player groups in the game, pride was a resource. Skilled pilots could build up their egos after winning a string of battles, but it was only a matter of time until they were humbled. And when they were, the illusion of mastery could unfold and unravel the social fabric of the group.” Here Groen asks the million dollar question: “If your corporation is based on being the best, what happens when you lose?”

Building an identity, even partially, on being better than all others is building a house upon sand. It has been proven over and over again across time and the stars of New Eden. The reasons are simple: as Groen notes, somewhere along the way you are going to lose; another reason, connected to the first, is that everyone wants to beat the group that thinks, rightly or wrongly, they’re better than all others. Being the best makes enemies; saying you’re the best makes even more enemies. Once enough enemies pile up, the weight of them all cannot be sustained by the pillars of raw elitism. That’s one of the inherent tough parts about being the best: you’ll always be a minority. And if the majority decide to turn on you, your better-than-ness won’t be able to make the numbers even.

Is this the reason the ghost laughs? Or is it because, over time, Goons have adopted the very attitude that they once hated. Perhaps the conjured ghost laughs because the joke’s on Goons; both Goons and the ghosts they call back up aren’t that different, because the Goons who killed BoB long ago are just as dead as the ghost they’ve conjured, with New Goons being the proud wearers of the Old Goons lineage, but still distinct from them nonetheless. New Goons may be literal successors of Old Goons, but arguably they aren’t the spiritual successors. Maybe the ghost is laughing because it questions, cynically, whether the Goon nonchalance that once characterized the organization looks now only to be a narrative device – deflecting shame for once being “bad at the game,” a device promptly dropped once they themselves are in power. Or, after everything, does the ghost laugh because nobody in EVE exhibits the nonchalance that once characterized Old Goons.

The Opposition Perspective

I’m not going to sit here and pretend that PAPI at large somehow represents the ideology of nonchalance. I think an argument could be made that Pandemic Horde specifically replaced Old Goons somewhere along the way as the zerglings of EVE, traveling in cheap ships, less organized, but with high numbers. I don’t know if Horde is thought of that way now, however. Also, they never really leaned into the “we are bad at the game and laugh whether we win or lose” mentality that Goons once had, despite the name “Horde” being a similar self-referential to the “swarm” playstyle once exhibited by Goonswarm. The roles haven’t been reversed, is my point.

But I do think that, for the most part, the ideology of the Old Goons has been pretty well replaced. You might see glimpses of it: “Goons was never about holding Delve, but about the friends we made along the way.” PAPI mocked the phrase, saying it was just a saying for Goons to comfort themselves. Maybe it was, but personally I think it’s the right way to go. However, phrases like this don’t reflect the culture of New Goons at large. They are more and more an exceptions to the rule, and I think that’s too bad.

Prioritizing fun and friendship over winning is a more healthy gaming behavior than always trying to be the best, and trying to convince others about how good you are at this video game. Having said that, everyone wants to be good at what they are doing. Blowing up sucks. So I get why the urge to be better and better is pursued by players the longer they play; there’s only so much criticism I think we should aim at such a sentiment, even when we use “elite/ism” in the derogatory.

Time to Face the Music

In the end, I’d say the Goons of yore, the ones who took pride at being bad at the game and roared with laughter whether they were winning or losing, are gone. On a wide scale, Goons no longer have that culture; it has changed and evolved into something new, something that looks more similar to Band of Brothers, though Goons will swear up and down they aren’t anything like BoB. But at this point PAPI has no chance of wiping out those Glorious Goons of Yonder Years, shining and laughing in the halls of memory; they don’t exist anymore.

Much of the negative toxicity of Old Goons has been purged, (though The Mittani’s command to go make fun of Vily during his CSM interview was questionable, at best), but along with those changes, most of the positive elements of Goon’s anti-establishment culture have also dissipated. What remains is a culturally moderate, establishment nullsec power with a Mittani-esque flair for the unhinged, who occasionally flirts with a bad-boy-I-still-scam-on-my-offtime public image. In essence, a 40+ year old successful CEO who still dons their fits-too-tightly leather jacket every once in a while. Always dropping reminders that they were young and rebellious once, but otherwise wearing custom-fitted Armani suits and driving cherry red Italian sports cars, still talking about that one time they put BoB out of business.

Maybe the ghost laughs for many reasons, and after an awkward pause, Goons chuckle nervously, making comments like “Guess the ghost got stupid after it died” or “Seir doesn’t know what he’s talking about; he’s just spinning cause PAPI’s jealous deep down.” Regardless, whether Goons collapse, or survive, or even thrive after this war, the version of Goons who will be facing a post-WWBII EVE are not going to be the same Goons that Groen wrote about. They are no longer those who shout “We’re terrible at this game” – instead, they will smugly tell you to “git gud.”

Meanwhile, the last thing Goons hear as they leave their Identity Affirmation Assembly – snapping closed the doors of their Italian sports cars to drive home for the night, champagne on their breath as they say “that guy’s crazy, completely nuts!” – is the chilling echo of a summoned ghost’s laugh, fading away into the cold irony of New Eden’s stars.

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Comments

  • Elithiel en Gravonere

    I’m one of these New Guard you speak about. I was a renter in Goons before the Casino war. Was brought up in the CFC, picked up the Goon culture which was mostly Old Guard in nature. One thing I didn’t like, was the toxic side of that culture. Nor did most of the others who were New Guard. Slowly but surely Karmafleet and Ascendence, got ‘good’ and bigger within Goons. Along with it, they bought the corporate culture of Merkelchan and Dave Archer and Major Sniper. This culture was about professionalising the place and making it a nice place to be, with a strong social side and hard work ethic. Making sure women were part of Goon culture and feeling safe to be there for example. We kept the best of the old culture and got rid of the toxicity. Many of those toxic players got the boot and ended up in TEST and a few ended up in PanFam. They are still there today.

    What’s different about this ‘New Guard’ you might ask? Do we need to be the same entity as we were when we first started? Well no. All entities mature over time. We are all grown up. We aren’t BoB though. Nor are we Serenity 2.0. We are a combination of the old culture, combined with this new Karmafleet/Ascee style culture. The synthesis makes us that much stronger, able to hold 3/4’s of the galaxy from taking 1DQ even after a year of fighting non-stop. Personally, I’ve nothing to be sad about. I take pride in the changes compared to 2016 when I saw people shitting on newbees rather than coaching them to get better. In short, we have professionalised our culture.

    June 28, 2021 at 7:51 AM
  • chimpy

    You rubbing you pop’s nose into the fact you have both empires of eve volumes and he doesn’t again? 🙂

    June 28, 2021 at 10:13 AM
    • Gray Doc chimpy

      Well, technically I have both volumes of Groen, just in the Kindle version, which is kinda lame. Just imagine how clever my articles would be if I had the hardback versions!

      June 28, 2021 at 4:25 PM
    • Seir Luciel chimpy

      Lol. They really are beautiful.

      June 28, 2021 at 6:23 PM
      • chimpy Seir Luciel

        I have both volumes too. I backed it on kickstarter the day it went live. Groen was on stage at fanfest telling stories from volume 1 and at the end he started to let the audience know about the kickstarter for volume 2. An audience member shouted back that it had already fully funded. Groen’s reaction was so cute, he was so relieved, thankful, and excited. They are indeed beautiful but as my eyesight isn’t so great I have to rely more and more on audible to help me out. Looking forwards to volume 2 when it hits audible. Grey Doc if you want the physical books don’t leave it too long, I don’t know that they will get reprint runs, it’s a bit niche.

        June 29, 2021 at 7:52 AM
        • Gray Doc chimpy

          I hear that. The two-volume set costs $90, which is actually reasonable for what you get, so I’ll be ordering those soon. Of course Groen could always just send me the two volumes for writing my review. That would be ok too.

          June 29, 2021 at 8:26 AM
          • Moomin Amatin Gray Doc

            Good luck with that ;-).

            June 29, 2021 at 8:55 AM
  • Guilford Australis

    “The Laughing Ghost of BoB” isn’t really laughing, though. It’s sitting in T5ZI-S, impotent, bewildered by its failures, a prisoner of Goons locked down in Delve forever because it can’t win and it can’t go home because it can’t win.

    The irony here is incredible.

    June 28, 2021 at 11:29 AM
    • The Imperium isn’t trapped in Delve by PAPI ships. PAPI is trapped in Delve by Imperium ships that they haven’t managed to destroy because of the expectations they’ve put on themselves with the lofty war goals they started with which they are now trying to get out by arguing that they never said the things they said.

      June 29, 2021 at 6:47 PM
      • Seir Luciel Carvj94

        PAPI can move caps to other regions to attack groups like Bastion but The Imperium can’t do the same; these facts don’t support the idea that PAPI is trapped.

        If I were Goons I’d try to make the spin that PAPI moving these caps to other regions to attack groups like Bastion showed that PAPI had given up really trying to attack 1DQ and was weakening the siege. I wouldn’t agree with the conclusion but at least that spin aligns with actual, witnessed, phenomena.

        June 29, 2021 at 7:39 PM
        • Carvj94 Seir Luciel

          Well the only reason PAPI can afford move caps off the front is because they don’t want to use them anyway for some arcane reason. Imperium isn’t moving caps out of Delve because all their targets are on their doorstep. Imperium isn’t trapped by any sense of the word but PAPI is forced to keep up their campaign and commit forces to Delve to save face.

          June 29, 2021 at 8:32 PM
        • Zaand Seir Luciel

          Dude, you gave up trying to attack 1DQ two months ago. We don’t need to point out the obvious.

          June 30, 2021 at 4:31 PM
        • Arrendis Seir Luciel

          PAPI can move caps to other regions to attack groups like Bastion but The Imperium can’t do the same; these facts don’t support the idea that PAPI is trapped.

          Keep on believing that. 😉

          July 1, 2021 at 8:14 PM
        • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

          “PAPI can move caps to other regions to attack groups like Bastion”

          And yet they don’t, it’s like there is this unmentionable terror gripping tapi in particular, and papi as a whole, that using caps will result in their death, I wonder why that is? Oh wait, https://br.evetools.org/br/60e114ca36037c001270cac6 that’s why.

          July 5, 2021 at 6:59 AM
  • Novartis

    Let’s get something right eh? There’s no problem at being bad at the game, but at least make sure to do it competently. The git gud is more of do something competently, whether you do it bad(then be competent at doing it bad), or good(and be competent at doing it good).

    Bro, goons not in a rifter anymore, because as what your coalition has proven like, time to time for the past several week, frigate, even if you make a swarm or horde with it, they just can’t win against well-organized carrier skynet. This is no more the era where capital ship is a total luxury. Kinda lots of guys now have capital and supers around the map. Time change, goons had their cultural revolution.

    And your point about BoB and goons are alike? In what? Goons, as I know of, never try to instigate a war at their own(that’s even their past, their early time!) and just be contend going indy around and roaming for content. They don’t glorify elite PvP, they only ask their member to get the fun from the game, and who to blame if they get the fun to do what the other corp and alliance think as waste of time in mining, producing, ratting and such on?

    P.S Probably the Laughing Ghost of BoB is more about NC.(buttload of ex-BoB corp member) now is the one trying to evict goon from delve, much to the reverse in the past where its theirs that defend delve and try to not get evicted.

    June 28, 2021 at 12:51 PM
  • Moomin Amatin

    “Our people deserve the best”, this is “goon culture” in its purest form. Something which has been written about more than once so I know you are well aware of it. Yet you do not touch on this at all, now why is that? When I log in it is with the mind of helping our people get the best of what ever it is they seek and not for them to “get gud”. The results are of course similar for both but the methodology is quite different.

    June 28, 2021 at 2:44 PM
  • Garreth Vlox

    “Or is it because, over time, Goons have adopted the very attitude that they once hated.”

    You have stated this several times over the past months. But it doesn’t ring true, it feels more like you are trying to repeat a lie so many times people start believing it. I’ve had two runs in goons, neither time did I find a mindset anything like the one you are claiming has replaced the old “goons are bad at the game” mentality. In fact in most if not every fleet there have been fuck ups both small and large sometimes even by the FC’s themselves resulting in the while fleet reminding that person goons are bad are bad and can’t tackle.

    Also in regards to your constant attempts to claim goons have become just like Bob, I don’t remember BoB/IT./Kenzoku having corps like ascendance and karmafleet that will take in highsec noobs and teach them the nullsec game.

    June 28, 2021 at 4:52 PM
    • Malcanis Garreth Vlox

      “it feels more like you are trying to repeat a lie so many times people start believing it.”

      As I discussed in my piece deconstructing his ‘causus belli’ bullshit, when he can’t prove something, he just states it like it’s a fact that everyone knows and accepts, and keeps doing it. It’s an effective technique.

      July 3, 2021 at 10:24 AM
  • ShutUp ShutUp

    “But at this point PAPI has no chance of wiping out those Glorious Goons of Yonder Years, shining and laughing in the halls of memory; they don’t exist anymore.”

    yeah we do binch, didn’t you hear the Horn?

    June 28, 2021 at 5:56 PM
  • Sirhan Blixt

    The author, either due to conscious choice or cognitive dissonance, is simply not qualified to write on the topic he has chosen. Why do I say this? Because I have seen, time and again, other people patiently answering the questions he asks — or begs — in this article. And he still refuses to understand the subject, or is unable to. As such, I cannot possibly take seriously any two words that he has penned here.

    I get why he would write this article, though. He has chosen his camp and has bent his talents, however formidable or meager, towards supporting it. It must be vexing to see one’s own credibility boil away like chlorine at room temperature, trying to spackle on layer after cheesy layer of clown lipstick on the empty pig’s skull that is his chosen coalition. At some level he has to realize that he has sold his word and passion in the service of the most wretched and least worthy claque of dead-enders in the game, and that can’t be comfortable.

    So here we are, with N column-inches that could more profitably been copy-pasted from the Bacon Ipsum text generator.

    How hard is it? Trying again:
    1. We organize, because we believe that our people deserve the best.
    2. We prepare for war, and for winning that war, because we’ve tried losing and losing sucks.
    3. We persist, because fuck you that’s why.

    I don’t even have to go into greater detail. All I have to do is point one to the most recent Meta Show, or the most recent Fireside recording. It’s all covered there.

    June 29, 2021 at 2:23 AM
    • Moomin Amatin Sirhan Blixt

      Sier is just doing the best that they can with the material that they have. Watching how their writing has wandered over the course of this War has been quite the education. The best bit is all of those “I told you so” moments Imperium seems to be stacking up.

      June 29, 2021 at 8:54 AM
  • Xa1n

    Does the book talk about how the Goon castle was built on the bedrock of massive scams. How about Goon application scam to be one. Goons have famous scammers, turned gud.

    June 29, 2021 at 4:22 AM
    • Seir Luciel Xa1n

      Goons still have members who publicly admit they still scam with little regret; so not all of them are “turned gud” but they have been lying lower during the war. Goons don’t talk about this much. Goons will get so outraged at the prospect of rent money but won’t bat an eye at the money they’ve gotten from scamming.

      June 29, 2021 at 9:03 PM
      • Zaand Seir Luciel

        Not our fault if people can’t take the 10 minutes to read the carefully worded message we have on our official recruitment page about scamming and paying to get in. At least scamming isn’t a lazy form of RMT by harboring massive bot operations and profiting off of blatant and malicious cheating. By the way, where has all that rent money gone? Certainly not the line members pockets, judging by this war.

        June 30, 2021 at 4:44 PM
        • Seir Luciel Zaand

          Why are you trying to justify scamming?

          June 30, 2021 at 11:22 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

            PAPI, especially PanDaFam just scammed the whole of Eve again. Not sure you should be looking to compare to be honest.

            July 1, 2021 at 4:45 AM
          • J Moravia Seir Luciel

            If you’re asking whether scamming is more or less morally reprehensible than PAPI declaring that Goons should be exterminated from the game, and proposing a Council of Wardens to ensure that Goons are never permitted to establish a presence in lowsec or nullsec again…well, I’d have to think about that one.

            July 2, 2021 at 12:33 AM
          • Seir Luciel J Moravia

            I don’t think the extermination rhetoric, if taken literally, was a good thing. People trying to make others quit the game shouldn’t be encouraged. I don’t think scamming should be encouraged either; that also creates impetus for newer, less experienced players who get duped to quit the game. I don’t really see the point in playing the “which is worse” game; rather, lets play the “stop toxic behavior no matter whose doing it” game.

            Personally, I don’t think a “Council of Wardens” would actually get implemented. So to me its a moot point. But here’s how I see it:

            What PAPI is doing to The Imperium is pretty intense, though not unheard of in EVE history (though much longer in WWBII). Unlike in other games, where someone might grief by camping a spawn point and killing a player over and over preventing them from actually playing the game, EVE allows someone like Goons options.

            Goons can go to lowsec or highsec. They aren’t being prevented from playing the game, but being prevented from playing the game in a specific way. I see this as more fair. Anytime someone decides to be in Nullsec you sign an invisible contract that says you consent to whatever happens there, even brutal things like getting kicked out by force. Goons signed that contract by deciding to be there, so I don’t see what PAPI’s doing as morally reprehensible in the same way as other griefing tactics in other games. You personally knew, theoretically, and accepted the risks. And Goons with their specific history, especially knew the risks. But nothing is stopping Goons from throwing in the towel, cutting their losses, or going to high sec, or joining another alliance.

            The point: Players in The Imperium have multiple options to change their circumstances. If things continue to be hard for individual Goons its isn’t only because of PAPI, but because they’re choosing to stick things out even in terrible circumstances. And I think that’s admirable, but since the options are there I don’t feel what PAPI is doing is wrong in the same way griefing behavior in other games is wrong. Because there are multiple ejector seats available to Goons, which would allow them to continue playing EVE in many different ways, whatever pain Goons feel is equally due to their choice to stay as much as PAPI’s.

            PAPI isn’t making Goons decide to get griefed or quit the game; they’re making Goons decide to suffer being sieged in nullsec, in Delve, in The Imperium, all boxes checked. Change a variable and it all ends for any Goon. Of course no Goon would want to do that; I certainly wouldn’t. But no one’s holding a gun to your head, or literally manipulating game mechanics to prevent you from getting out. And that changes the moral landscape in my opinion.

            Let’s say PAPI disbanded and Goons really started messing up TEST. TEST is next, after all. The Mittani said “no mercy” and “no accepting surrenders.” Would there be a point where Goons would stop, if TEST players started quitting the game en mass? If Goons are planning to “exterminate” TEST after this is all said and done with, how should PAPI respond? Maybe you aren’t planning that, idk. What do you think?

            July 2, 2021 at 3:52 AM
          • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

            lol

            Meanwhile TAPI are plotting to attack KarmaFleet Univeristy which is a group of hisec new players……..

            July 2, 2021 at 5:41 AM
          • J Moravia Seir Luciel

            I don’t think the extermination rhetoric, if taken literally, was a good thing.

            This can’t be dismissed as if it were something Vily drunk-posted on Reddit. He said it to an international gaming-and-tech website. That’s not “rhetoric;” it’s not empty words. It was a statement of intent, even if he and his lackeys have since tried to walk it back.

            And that, in turn, means that Vily and PAPI think they get to decide who should be allowed to play the game and who shouldn’t. They think they get to declare – by virtue of their size and strength alone – that certain people or groups have no place in the game. They believe they’re entitled to make those judgments and then to act as executioners, even if it means creating a blue donut and allying with the biggest coalition of botters the game has ever seen. Are these really the people you want to spend your time and words defending? Do you truly believe that attitude is good for the game?

            July 2, 2021 at 11:09 AM
          • Arrendis Seir Luciel

            I don’t think the extermination rhetoric, if taken literally, was a good thing. People trying to make others quit the game shouldn’t be encouraged.

            It absolutely should be taken literally. Vily reiterated the point more than once on reddit, and even his initial attempts to walk it back made it clear that he felt players should be driven out of the game.

            I don’t think scamming should be encouraged either; that also creates impetus for newer, less experienced players who get duped to quit the game.

            Definitely a case to be made there. However… scamming is encouraged. By CCP. It’d be a simple thing to say that fraud and misrepresentation is an exploit, and not allowed, but they don’t. And more, they bank on it. They put out trailers like this one that tell players ‘you can join a group, earn their trust, and betray thousands of people. That’s totally cool.’

            Even in the trailer, the POV player gets ganked by one small group. So he joins a different corp in the alliance, bides his time, works his way up, and betrays all of them. Not just the guys who wronged him. He screws over everyone, including people who welcomed him as a friend, who were honest and sincere in their trust and the help they gave him.

            And CCP encourages that. Celebrates it.

            So yeah, there’s totally a case to be made that scamming is not a nice thing to do. And even that it’s toxic. But fraud, betrayal, dishonesty… looks like something CCP seems to want in the game.

            PAPI isn’t making Goons decide to get griefed or quit the game; they’re making Goons decide to suffer being sieged in nullsec, in Delve, in The Imperium, all boxes checked. Change a variable and it all ends for any Goon.

            And plenty of us are also playing EVE in lowsec, in highsec, in j-space… PAPI isn’t making us be in Delve. Don’t think for a moment that the ‘containment’ narrative really holds. I go where I want, when I want, with the ships I want to. When you lay down in your bed at night, do you feel ‘contained’?

            Let’s say PAPI disbanded and Goons really started messing up TEST. TEST is next, after all. The Mittani said “no mercy” and “no accepting surrenders.” Would there be a point where Goons would stop, if TEST players started quitting the game en mass?

            TEST’s players are free to vote with their feet. They can leave TEST. I think we’d all prefer that they leave TEST, rather than leave EVE. At no point have we declared that we want to drive people out of the game. At no point has Mittens said he wants thousands of people to quit EVE.

            Vily has. He’s tried to walk it back, but at the same time, he was spewing a bunch of lies about his departure from the Imperium, which I easily demonstrated in the same reddit thread, with logs. And in the end, his response was that he wouldn’t discuss it in text, where his words could be easily followed and he could be held to them.

            So you’ve got one person who hasn’t changed their story. Who doesn’t go saying people should be driven from the game. Who doesn’t get caught in outright lies and then run from the conversation.

            And then you’ve got Vily.

            Maybe take a look at which one you’re supporting in all of this.

            July 2, 2021 at 4:52 PM
          • Seir Luciel Arrendis

            Definitely a case to be made there. However… scamming is encouraged. By CCP

            I don’t get my moral compass from CCP’s marketing schemes. I’ve never considered “someone encouraged me to do it” a suitable excuse for bad behavior.

            TEST’s players are free to vote with their feet. They can leave TEST. I think we’d all prefer that they leave TEST, rather than leave EVE. At no point have we declared that we want to drive people out of the game. At no point has Mittens said he wants thousands of people to quit EVE.

            Exactly my point. Goons also can vote with their feet, meaning their great complaining about the war’s legitimacy or whether it is “good for the game,” it seems to me, a propaganda tactic to reduce the morale of their enemy. Get into their head, make them question their motives. I don’t think Goons are sincere in these complaints.

            Maybe take a look at which one you’re supporting in all of this.

            I’m supporting my side. And my side happens to align with Horde right now, who happens to align with PAPI currently.

            July 2, 2021 at 7:53 PM
          • J Moravia Seir Luciel

            I’m supporting my side.

            You’re supporting your “side,” even when all the criticisms you’ve ever made about Goons (too big, too rich, etc) are far more true of your “side” than they ever were of Goons.

            That’s the thing people keep trying to point out to you, but you’re too busy “supporting your side” to engage the right hemisphere of your brain.

            July 2, 2021 at 8:21 PM
          • Arrendis Seir Luciel

            Exactly my point. Goons also can vote with their feet, meaning their great complaining about the war’s legitimacy or whether it is “good for the game,” it seems to me, a propaganda tactic to reduce the morale of their enemy. Get into their head, make them question their motives. I don’t think Goons are sincere in these complaints.

            Except, again, Vily made it clear that yes, he definitely meant (and, let’s face it, still does, he just lies about it now) to drive people out of the game. Do you think for one moment that if we all left Goonswarm and formed a new alliance called Hello Kitty Island Adventures that Vily would have suddenly said ‘oh, well, ok, everything’s cool now’? Obviously not.

            And no, I’m not saying you should be getting your moral compass from CCP. God knows I don’t, and I wouldn’t have any problem with them deciding ‘ok, scamming was cool fifteen years ago, but social mores have changed and we should change with it’. But I am saying that CCP are the arbiters of what behavior is ‘acceptable’ in the game, and what behaviors are ‘bad for the game’. They are, not you, not me, not Vily. And if players think that behaviors CCP allows and encourages are hurting the community, then CCP need to be the ones held to account for the rules they set. Because at the end of the day, whatever the company allows, players *will* do.

            And dude, supporting your side is laudable, but doing it blindly ain’t. Your leaders have an obligation to the membership to be putting your needs ahead of their own ambitions. To make decisions that foster your enjoyment of the time you spend in the game.

            My alliance leader is doing that. Is yours? Because the numbers of people showing up don’t seem to give that impression.

            July 2, 2021 at 9:15 PM
          • Seir Luciel Arrendis

            I have a question for you then. So, as you say, the arbiters of the game have declared many things acceptable in the game.

            Would you say CCP also accepts renting?

            July 3, 2021 at 2:32 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

            This entire war was a scam, you claimed to be preventing goons from killing the game and taking all of nullsec and then proceeded to take all of nullsec and are actively killing the game.

            July 2, 2021 at 10:09 PM
      • Thanks for the info. I became a scammer because Goons did it to NC. during one of there wars. I did the same thing back to them and could not believe how it worked. The scamming Goons do is on another level though it’s more personal. Which I never liked.

        July 4, 2021 at 12:35 PM
  • Xolve

    This is a lot of words for ‘I’ve never heard of Delta Sqad’.

    June 29, 2021 at 7:14 AM
    • Seir Luciel Xolve

      It isn’t the case that old Goons aren’t playing; of course they are. Many of them. My point was that the way Goons see themselves, how they frame their own identity, isn’t the same as it used to be regardless of older Goons still playing the game. Granthrithor comes to mind; he’s an older Goon and often comments on my pieces.

      But having some older individuals and having wholesale an older culture are two different things; also, simply, Goons just don’t see themselves or define themselves the same way they used to. That’s not necessarily a critique; it is just a fact.

      June 29, 2021 at 7:26 PM
      • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

        “It isn’t the case that old Goons aren’t playing; of course they are. Many of them. My point was that the way Goons see themselves, how they frame their own identity, isn’t the same as it used to be regardless of older Goons still playing the game. Granthrithor comes to mind; he’s an older Goon and often comments on my pieces.”

        Translation:

        “Please disregard all evidence that goons of old are still playing. I need you to believe the lies I tell myself every night before I log off so I have the will to log in the next day believing gobbins and vily will lead us to victory”

        June 29, 2021 at 10:57 PM
      • dragonshardz Seir Luciel

        The Goon Understander Has Logged On.

        July 1, 2021 at 6:55 AM
      • Don’t worry: Delta Sqad are here to remind our people of the True Path of Goonieness. Witness us as we suicide-gank cyno ships and unleash an avalanche of tech-one-fueled destruction upon your house. Praise be to our ancestors and their dead Rifters: may our Vexor-corpses clog your guns in the finest traditions of Goonly Service. The Second Founding is upon us, bringing with it all the best elements of historical Goon culture with 99% less casual-racism-and-every-other-word-being-“faggot.”

        July 4, 2021 at 11:39 AM
    • SAVAGELY ACCURATE POSTING ITT

      July 4, 2021 at 11:33 AM
  • J Moravia

    I flew with Karmafleet for several years before real-life obligations kept me from devoting as much time to EVE. One of the standing traditions was the Saturday Night Swarm, a sobriety-optional gate camp. When we caught a ship, we kept it tackled for five or ten seconds so everyone could point it and get in on the killmail. One night we had a problem with people accidentally killing tackled ships too quickly, so Merkelchen announced that whoever killed the next ship before his go-ahead would get fragged. Another ship popped, and the killmail came in. The killing blow? Merkelchen, because of all the drones that people had assigned to him. So we all laughed our heads off as we AWOXed our FC and CSM rep.

    I’m pretty sure Goons still pride themselves for being bad at the game, Seir’s opinion notwithstanding – since, as someone who has never been in Goons, Seir has no idea what the culture on the inside is actually like.

    June 29, 2021 at 10:54 AM
    • Seir Luciel J Moravia

      I’ve just noted the way Goons react to the assertion that they are getting attacked because they got big and strong, which they did. They’ve reacted one of two ways: they’ve either downplayed their success or they’ve owned up to it. Either way, Goons are defining themselves currently using very different terms than they once did, and I think that’s noteworthy.

      June 29, 2021 at 7:30 PM
      • J Moravia Seir Luciel

        You’re equivocating. First, the idea that Goons got attacked because they were “big and strong” is factually incorrect. They were never “big” at all, and this is an objectively verifiable fact. At its *peak,* the entire Imperium controlled about as many regions as TEST alone.

        How, then, did they get strong? By obsessive krabbing. Surely you’re not arguing that obsessive krabbing makes someone good at the game.

        So really, we’re just looking at sour grapes on the part of the Imperium’s enemies. PAPI are bitterly jealous that Goonswarm is richer than them – not larger, not projecting more geopolitical force, but just richer, with a larger capital fleet due to krabbing. None of that has anything to do with being good at the game. (And, in fact, if you ever browsed zKillboard before the war, you’d see that a lot of Goon krabs were positively awful at krabbing, judging from how many ships they lost.)

        To conclude, Goons didn’t get attacked by PAPI because they got “big and strong.” That is Kool-Aid, which was happily slurped up by the PAPI line members who haven’t played the game long enough to know any better. Goons got attacked because they were richer and people were jealous. There’s no connection – in EVE or in any other game – between being rich and being good at the game.

        June 29, 2021 at 9:08 PM
        • Seir Luciel J Moravia

          Wealth is power my friend; both in EVE and in real life. If that’s equivocating then so be it; it’s also how the world works.

          It also isn’t sour grapes to recognize a rival’s success, acknowledge what’s happening, and take the steps to help put your team on top. There’s nothing shameful in implementing come-back strategies when you’ve gotten behind; that’s simply being realistic and competitive.

          June 29, 2021 at 9:14 PM
          • J Moravia Seir Luciel

            “If that’s equivocating”

            There’s no “if.” Your entire article was based on the premise that Goons have somehow lost their old culture by becoming good at the game. I just finished pointing out how you can get rich (and incur the ire of a blue donut) without ever being good at the game, which nullifies your entire thesis.

            Let’s consider this Groen quote from your article:
            “In essence, their morale was unassailable because they deliberately under-inflated their self-image.”
            How else are we supposed to interpret the recently released participation data showing that Goon PVP participation is still going strong while PAPI’s is waning month over month? That is the mark of one thing: Goons are just happy to be fighting and don’t care whether they’re winning or losing – in other words, they don’t care whether they’re “good at the game” – while PAPI are the ones who are losing morale because they’re not racking up the wins anymore.

            All the evidence points to the opposite of what you spent this article trying to prove.

            June 29, 2021 at 9:18 PM
          • Carvj94 Seir Luciel

            Wealth is only power when there’s people to buy with your money. A tank in real life is useless without a driver and a gunner just like a cruiser in EVE is useless without a pilot.

            June 30, 2021 at 2:07 AM
      • Zaand Seir Luciel

        The reason we’re getting attacked by Papi is because when Legacy asked us to help them invade PanFam we told them to get lost. Any other narrative is post-fact revisionism.

        June 30, 2021 at 4:38 PM
        • Seir Luciel Zaand

          On Push To Talk many Goons expressed the idea that this offer to Goons was merely an attempt to draw Goons out, out of position, in order to back-stab them. In other words, that Goons were the target all along. Not my idea; a Goon idea.

          It isn’t post-fact revisionism when Goons can’t even agree on what the facts were. First, Goons get together and get a consensus about what actually happened and why. Then come and talk to me about the threat of re-writing history.

          June 30, 2021 at 10:40 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

            Hey you do not even know what your war objective is after a year. When it comes to facts PAPI are not even out of the starting gate.

            Where is this “recanted extermination” rhetoric by the way? You have PAPI supporting media still going on about how goons are so bad for the game that they need to be banned. You talk of good faith – lol. You have gone to far now – lol.

            July 1, 2021 at 4:51 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

            Seir: ” like they did with the recanted extermination rhetoric”

            PAPI leadeship and official mouthpieces: we’re going to become wardens and prevent goons from playing the game forever.

            Dude your spin is so bad it’s not even funny anymore, it just invokes pity for you from the people who read it.

            July 2, 2021 at 10:16 PM
      • Arrendis Seir Luciel

        I’ve just noted the way Goons react to the assertion that they are getting attacked because they got big and strong, which they did. They’ve reacted one of two ways: they’ve either downplayed their success or they’ve owned up to it. Goons who’ve opted for the latter are defining themselves using very different terms than older goons once did, and I think that calls for a reevaluation of how Goons construct an identity for themselves.

        I think you’re laboring under a misunderstanding here. Those of us who say ‘we did the work’ are not, by any means, saying that we’re not bad at the game, or that we’re not here to have fun. We’re bad at the game, but if we can do the work, how much worse is everyone else?

        As for ‘here to have fun’… absolutely. That’s the entire idea. Leadership, otoh, has responsibilities to the membership. We have to make sure they can just focus on having fun. But the vast majority of Goons? Just having fun, dude. And win or lose, we are having fun.

        Are you? Because you know, you seem to be getting more and more short-tempered and frustrated with each piece. More strident and insistent that we can’t be enjoying the hell out of ourselves here. That whole second paragraph there comes across that way.

        Admitting we got strong gives credence to ‘the biggest reason’ we’re getting attacked? A couple of years ago, our being strong was the only thing that kept Legacy from getting rolled by PandaFam. So, you know, I guess it wasn’t so bad then, right? It was totally ok for us to be strong when it helped TEST and Brave.

        It was fine when it was Imperial Legacy, but suddenly the moment Mittens tells Vily we’re not going to attack FRT, it’s not? C’mon now.

        Meanwhile, FRT’s off printing up ISK, but that’s totally fine, right?

        PanFam likes to go and shit on smaller groups, like the way they squatted on Brave for years, and then shat on Providence until Provibloc broke. But we’re the problem, right? After all, we went and picked on… uhm… the other big bloc?

        You insisted in a previous piece that the ‘blue donut’ isn’t real, but Gobbins just this weekend confirmed that there are no plans to break it up.

        Someone needs to own up to the truth of the matter… but it ain’t us.

        July 1, 2021 at 8:30 PM
        • Seir Luciel Arrendis

          Are you? Because you know, you seem to be getting more and more short-tempered and frustrated with each piece

          Goons write a spin piece and there’s none to make corrections, unless I’ve got the emotional energy to engage. Only a host of agreers and sneer-ers.

          I write a piece making any critique (or even just an inconsistency in their narrative) of Goons and the whole damn website comes down on it, with a Ben Shapiro-esque “Seir Luciel Gets DESTROYED” counter-piece soon following. EVE’s Online’s fun, but here in the beehive it ain’t always. Especially when you know the reaction you’re gonna get no matter what you say or how you say it. It’s not like I’m writing to a fair-and-balanced audience here.

          July 2, 2021 at 5:56 AM
          • Arrendis Seir Luciel

            Goons write a spin piece

            You mean the piece this is a response to? First off… you can’t just… talk to Gray about it?

            You wrote a piece that you think highlights an inconsistency in the narrative. I’m not saying ‘SEIR GETS DESTROYED’, I’m telling you that the inconsistency you see… isn’t there. That the two positions aren’t inconsistent, they’re simply two parts of a complex whole.

            People, I’m sorry to say, are complicated. We hold complex opinions and worldviews. I engaged with the substance of the comment I responded to. You focused on one bit where I opined on how you’re coming across.

            Care to address the substance?

            You know, like how the inconsistency isn’t really inconsistent?

            Or how our strength wasn’t ‘bad for the game’ while it was helping prop Legacy up, but suddenly was as soon as Vily got an answer he didn’t like?

            Or the disconnect between your position that the blue donut isn’t real, and PAPI leadership’s statements that there will be no change to the blue statuses all around?

            Any of it?

            July 2, 2021 at 5:02 PM
          • GuardianDevil Arrendis

            Don’t expect any of it, Schopenhauer’s guide to trolling (The Art of Being Right) does not list “engage in a meaningful conversation”.

            Maybe he got an assignment and he has to employ all of the methods described in the book. But often he simply leaves the questions unanswered and that’s not by the book so I’m a bit confused.

            July 2, 2021 at 6:34 PM
          • Seir Luciel Arrendis

            Care to address the substance?

            1) You know, like how the inconsistency isn’t really inconsistent?

            2) Or how our strength wasn’t ‘bad for the game’ while it was helping prop Legacy up, but suddenly was as soon as Vily got an answer he didn’t like?

            3) Or the disconnect between your position that the blue donut isn’t real, and PAPI leadership’s statements that there will be no change to the blue statuses all around?

            Any of it?

            1) Look, you are free to disagree. But simply saying “there’s no inconsistency” doesn’t make it go away. I see one. You don’t. Let’s just agree to disagree.

            2) Goons wealth after the Delve Miracle got out of control. You may disagree, but most of the galaxy would contend with that (including more authoritative thinkers than me, like Caleb). Was it “bad for the game?” *shrugs* I don’t know, maybe. Was it bad for us? Hell yeah. It was bad for our game, though not for Goons’ game obviously. Hence, one of the great reasons for this war.

            3) It’s not, at least in the way I assume you define it. If you mean a large alliance has formed to defeat an agreed upon enemy, then yes the blue donut exists? But if you mean that Serenity has been established, and forever after PAPI will be aligned till kingdom come, swatting anyone who falls outside of it . . . no, the blue donut isn’t real. I firmly believe that PAPI will dissolve, either a few months after 1DQ burns or PAPI gives up trying to attack Goon’s last systems and calls it off.

            So first, define what you want me to admit is real; most of the time I assume goons are using the latter definition.

            July 2, 2021 at 6:39 PM
          • Arrendis Seir Luciel

            1) Except I didn’t just say it. I’ve shown how there’s no inconsistency there, and both parts fit together. Now, if you want to claim they’re still inconsistent, you’re basically left trying to tell me that you know more about how I think than I do.

            Do you really want to make that claim?

            2) Was it bad for your game, though? Why? Why was it bad for your game when we wouldn’t help you attack [note: while we were already in the middle of an offensive on the other side of the map], but it wasn’t bad for your game while we were using it to defend you from PandaFam?

            3) You may firmly believe it, but go listen to Gobbins’ town hall. Because he says it’s not going away. He doesn’t say it’s not going away because Goons, he doesn’t say it’s not going away until after 1DQ falls. He says it’s not going away.

            3a) Gobbins is the guy with the manpower to call the shots, and PandaFam’s a lot more cohesive long-term than PAPI is. After all, they’ve been a coalition for over 3 years now. With that in mind, if Gobbins doesn’t want the reset, do you really think Vily and Progod will insist that standings get reset when all that will do is ring the dinner bell for PandaFam to come after Legacy again, with no Imperium to help you defend?

            July 2, 2021 at 6:48 PM
          • Seir Luciel Arrendis

            1) Which parts, Aarrendis?

            That this war is a snoozefest/Goons are having the time of their lives?

            That Goons got pretty huge in the Delve Miracle, so much so that they had to tell CCP about it/ Goons didn’t really get that big or it didn’t matter cause anyone else could do it?

            That Vily asked The Imperium to attack first/it was actually just to draw The Imperium out and they were the targets all along?

            That PAPI’s ruining the game/we’ve never had more fun?

            That Goons aren’t good at this game/everyone else is terrible at this game they should get better?

            That Goons are the same as they’ve always been/they’ve professionalized, of course they’ve changed over the years that’s how time works?

            And on and on, I can’t hardly keep up. But I could go and quote people and articles I’ve read here for each of these positions, directly contradicting one another. My head spins, meanwhile I’ve got Guardian saying I’m not willing to have a meaningful conversation.

            2) It was bad for our game if we wanted to become stronger than a rival. It’s called competition. Was it bad for our game if we just wanted to sit around? No. But if we wanted to progress in relation to others? This isn’t a hard concept, I don’t really know why you’re fighting me on this; we aren’t playing Harvest Moon here (a great game btw). This is nullsec block politics at its most basic.

            3) Gobbins said he’s not going away “right now.”

            This leads me to a lot of the current topics about whether its fair or not to have so many people fighting the imperium, or whether its fair or not to maintain the current siege on 1DQ, and whether it is benificial or not. The most simple answer to that is that this equilibrium that exists right now [emphasis mine] is something that is far more beneficial to the equilibrium that we’ve had in the past for horde.

            The whole quote is temporally anchored in in the present with references to things like “the current siege on 1DQ” and phrases like “right now.” These aren’t future tense references or language, but present tense ones. This is kind of close reading provides far more evidence to interpret Gobbins announcements about “the equilibrium” as a present tense/near future announcement, not a long-future one as Goons tend to interpret it.

            What makes me angry is when Goons just say something like: “Your leaders say the blue donut is going to last.” (Meanwhile Progod literally rejects this idea outright, saying absolutely PAPI will be disassembled). What it does is prey upon people’s close listening skills; most people don’t listen very closely to exact wording, but just get the general idea, often completely blowing over any nuance. Someone like you who comes in and says some kind of blanket statement like “go listen to Gobbins’ town hall. Because he says it’s not going away” isn’t only factually incorrect, but its close enough to be very misleading. Especially when I suspect most people don’t actually go listen to what Gobbins said; they listen to what YOU say he said, feeling that you probably wouldn’t get it wrong, or they read INN’s recent exposition about what PAPI leaders are saying. So much information is getting passed second-hand, through biased lens, and I watch it happen every day here.

            July 2, 2021 at 7:27 PM
          • Arrendis Seir Luciel

            1) Which parts, Aarrendis?

            That this war is a snoozefest/Goons are having the time of their lives?

            That Goons got pretty huge in the Delve Miracle, so much so that they had to tell CCP about it/ Goons didn’t really get that big or it didn’t matter cause anyone else could do it?

            That Vily asked The Imperium to attack first/it was actually just to draw The Imperium out and they were the targets all along?

            That PAPI’s ruining the game/we’ve never had more fun?

            That Goons aren’t good at this game/everyone else is terrible at this game they should get better?

            That Goons are the same as they’ve always been/they’ve professionalized, of course they’ve changed over the years that’s how time works?

            And on and on, I can’t hardly keep up. But I could go and quote people and articles I’ve read here for each of these positions, directly contradicting one another. My head spins, meanwhile I’ve got Guardian saying I’m not willing to have a meaningful conversation.

            And what of that was what I said?

            Here’s what I’ve said: the idea that we did the work, and that we’re bad at the game and just having fun, is not inconsistent.

            We’d only do the work if doing it meant we were having fun. For the most part, that ‘work’ has been done while we’re in comms with one another, amusing the hell out of each other. The idea that we’re having fun? That’s not dependent on the gameplay being fun. We have fun because we’re doing things together. At the same time, none of that means we’ve abandoned the ‘we’re bad at the game’ viewpoint. We are bad at the game. That doesn’t mean we can’t think you’re worse at it.

            2) It was bad for our game if we wanted to become stronger than a rival. It’s called competition. Was it bad for our game if we just wanted to sit around? No. But if we wanted to progress in relation to others? This isn’t a hard concept, I don’t really know why you’re fighting me on this; we aren’t playing Harvest Moon here (a great game btw). This is nullsec block politics at its most basic.

            No it wasn’t. We had 3 regions—four, once RA decided they wanted out of Period Basis. You guys had what again? Paragon Soul, Esoteria, Feyth, Impass, Tenerefis, Immensea, and further on? You had more space. That means you had more moons to mine, you had more resources to gather, and on and on. No, your failure to actually utilize what you had doesn’t make our willingness to have fun shitting up comms at one another while we mined and locusted bad for your game. It means that that if your goal was to become stronger than a rival bloc, that takes work.

            You still haven’t, after all, become stronger than the indicated rival. If you were, you’d take the gate. If you were stronger, you’d be better able to soak up supercapital losses than we are. You’d be able to replace them better, able to SRP your line members faster. You’d be stronger. But to get there, you need to do the work. Horde’s doing the work. FRT’s doing the work. And if the blue donut does break up, they will eat you alive.

            Because Legacy, in all of this, has been losing ground in terms of actual power, even against us, because our guys are showing up, and yours… ain’t.

            3) Keep on listening. Yes, early in he’s talking about ‘the current equilibrium’. But overall? He’s not, and his other statements make it very clear.

            Yes, Progod’s said PAPI will get disassembled. He’s also said it won’t. Sometimes in the same Legacy Town Halls, in fact. But then, Progod’s also said things like ‘we’ll have new doctrines this week’ and ‘there will be a big announcement this week’, and then talking up ‘the plan’, only to immediately turn around and quickly distance himself from all of those statements, right down to wonderful bit of ‘It’s not my plan, I’m just the only one who can play before work.’ on Reddit.

            So, once again, the guy who’s constantly changing his story? Probably not the one you should trust to be honest.

            So much information is getting passed second-hand, through biased lens, and I watch it happen every day here.

            I heartily encourage everyone to go to first-hand sources. At the same time, though, I encourage them to pay attention to more than one single utterance at a time, and look at the entire body of those statements, critically, for consistency and self-contradiction.

            July 2, 2021 at 7:50 PM
          • Seir Luciel Arrendis

            Let’s agree to disagree, buddy. We clearly aren’t changing each other’s views.

            July 2, 2021 at 7:57 PM
          • GuardianDevil Seir Luciel

            Yeah and this is an important aspect of it. I don’t want to turn you into a Goon cheerleader, I don’t want to challenge your feelings. If something is subjective there is literally no point arguing about it because both sides can be right at the same time.

            What I mean by you are not willing to engage in a meaningful manner is the way we argue over facts. Facts should be treated without feelings. Which is not an easy task especially when the other side is mocking you. But we should still aim for it.

            I will attempt to present a very short summary from the last few articles and their comments about the war from my point of view:

            It’s totally understandable that PAPI formed and attacked us. I think we never cried about it or questioned the righteousness of it. The only thing we found questionable is the initially stated goal from Vily, I assume that’s the real reason TEST is next. Other than that we are just laughing at PAPI because you are underperforming and blundering left and right. And here we have a lot of feeling on both sides, so a meaningful conversation is not very likely.

            Mostly the differences are nuances but we feel them important. Like when we talk about influence over New Eden. Yes, you can move your capital fleet anywhere (or part of it), but you have only one enemy because everyone else is blue. So it’s technically true but what’s the point? Or how long will be PAPI a thing. My interpretation of Gobbins townhall is this: “the equilibrium that exists right now is something that is far more beneficial to the equilibrium that we’ve had in the past for horde” so the current state of null (blue doughnut) is by far the best for you. I assume (and not only me) Gobbins wants to maintain this as long as he can that’s why we say Serenity is here and it want’s to stay.

            July 2, 2021 at 10:12 PM
          • J Moravia Seir Luciel

            “No, the blue donut isn’t real.” -Seir Luciel, 2 July 2021

            I just want that preserved for posterity.

            July 2, 2021 at 8:23 PM
  • GuardianDevil

    What a well written article! Except for the fact that you disregard everyone’s argument who dares to voice a different opinion from past discussions.

    What’s the point of the article btw?

    a, Goons are not as bad as they are telling us, so we got baited in this war and instead of the expected easy win we are still sitting in Delve. It’s again their shady ways what got us in trouble!

    b, Goons are not noobs anymore, so it’s not that embarrassing to get humiliated by them on a regular basis.

    Seriously, it’s a returning problem that you can’t distinguish between the alliance/coalition and the single Goon. Of course we got better after playing for more than a decade as an alliance. But the individual player is not good at the game just average. Our leadership on the other hand are either good or excellent.

    Being rich doesn’t equal being good. In a previous comment of yours you ask “a new player like you how long should be denied of winning because of the success of Goons?”. You have some different idea about winning then me, explain it please when would you feel winning as a single player. Getting rich? Beating your opponent in fight? Because either way I can’t see how is it someone else’s fault that you can’t win.

    June 30, 2021 at 10:53 AM
  • Seir Luciel

    Thus, your narrative that “Goons became the biggest power in-game = Goons became BoB in mentality” is simply wrong.

    I disagree that this was my narrative; rather, I think Goons adopted a BoB-like mentality/superstructure once they developed the economic base of a Bob-like power/entity. Ideology tends to justify one’s way of life, and when one’s way of life changes, so does the ideology.

    Having said this I enjoyed your comment immensely; I didn’t know I had Zizek read INN.

    June 30, 2021 at 10:59 PM
    • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

      You mean get free stuff from CCP employees and game the CSM while being bank rolled by dirty Casino ISK while holding the largest extortion racket?

      July 1, 2021 at 4:48 AM
  • Howie Roseman Fan Club Preside

    https://i.imgur.com/2eDLgMc.png

    July 1, 2021 at 6:59 AM
  • Caleb Ayrania

    Aside from disagreeing with some details and especially taking offense at the locked down final hedged conclusion (heads I win tails you lose), this was a very well written article.

    July 2, 2021 at 3:29 AM
  • Bro: being capable of enjoying ourselves and not taking things too seriously whilst losing does not preclude being able to also enjoy oneself whilst winning and getting rich and doing better than everyone else.

    Here is what the ups and downs of Goonswarm look like:

    Losing: having fun
    Doing ok: having fun
    Winning: having fun
    Crushing MERs: having fun
    Losing again because all of EVE ganged up on us again: having fun
    Rebuilding after: having fun

    What is with this nonsense: we call PAPI orgs out for their ingrained elitism causing structural issues that led to long-term weakness and the necessity of forming PAPI to counter Goons once it became clear that no individual members could hold their own. You turn around and say that really it’s the Goons who are elitists because we were proud of our MER numbers? And that makes us BoB now? What?

    “Old Goons” are not gone: they’re in Delta Sqad and many other places, suiciding gangs of Thrashers and Vexors into your Elite PvP Squadrons, humiliating you with 30-man gangs that take on your fleets of HACs rolling hundreds-deep, living and dying and living again because we’re having fun playing together and finding fun new ways to kill you. We don’t care if we die: we just here to fuck.

    The longer PAPI sit here, putting the best (possibly only?) consistent source of PvP in nullsec on the doorstep of the Imperial Palace, the longer you will endure a state of perpetual humiliation in a campaign that cannot improve your collective image: a “victory” at this point would make you look like a bunch of inept bullies who eventually somehow succeeded in spite of your own best efforts, while a loss would make you look absurdly incompetent on a monumental scale utterly without precedent in the storied history of this game. Every time you pen an article making silly claims, you paint yourself deeper and deeper into this corner. Y’all should quit while you’re ahead on your dead-Keepstar score-card.

    July 4, 2021 at 11:32 AM