Horde’s Town Hall, June 27


Header art by Elthar Nox

If you were expecting to be bored, you won’t be disappointed. Pandemic Horde leader Gobbins hosted a Coalition Town Hall on Saturday, June 27. This came amongst rising unrest from the player base, rapidly shrinking numbers in PAPI, and the ongoing attempt to break the O-EIMK constellation. A rousing address or a tactical masterclass – this was not. Gobbins is the accountant to The Mittani’s orator, an effective bean counter (excuse the pun), but his speech will do nothing to reinstall fighting spirit to a flailing coalition.

Gobbins started in the manner we, at least in the Imperium, have become accustomed – it sounded good, but it was a fantasy to present his perspective. He told an elaborate tale to highlight the issues with maintaining an equilibrium – majoring on the fall of Guardians of the Galaxy in 2018-2019. He tells the story of a disagreement between GOTG and PH and how this led to conflict in the north, but also discontent within his own coalition. Like a PAPI battle report, he left out the critical engagement and brushed over the details of how GOTG were an ally of PH, and PH stabbed GOTG in the back when GOTG was at their weakest.


The first component of the Town Hall looked at equilibriums, clearly Gobbins’ “word of the day.” He states “there is always an equilibrium in EVE, then there is a moment of balance. People decide whether they want to continue or break out of it.” Regarding the current situation as a newly formed balance in the game (if one can call “balance” when the virtually all of nullsec fights only one group), he reveals that the Blue Donut Coalition is here to stay. The initial reasoning is sound; the current situation is advantageous to Panfam and any visible future equilibrium may end up being less to their advantage. What follows next is highly revealing.

“This equilibrium that exists right now is far more beneficial than the equilibriums we’ve had in the past for Horde; if we were, for example, to pull back from this war, it would go back to something worse for us.”


This quote clearly indicates that the Blue Donut benefits Pandemic Horde. We’ve already seen that it benefits Legacy (as we’ll also see again soon) and Noraus also has stated PAPI will last much longer than people think. Soon, even PAPI line members might start to believe their leaders and stop denying the reality that Serenity 2 is one year old now, with no sign of breaking up.

Looking ahead to what would happen if the PAPI Coalition broke up, or even if Panfam left the encirclement, he states, “Goons (would) probably start to attack TEST and Legacy, and that wouldn’t be a very long war. If you remove our forces, you would have pretty quick progress.” Highlighting the contribution of his Legacy allies, Gobbins once again slips up and confirms what Imperium members have all known for some time. Panfam is carrying Legacy through this war and without the PH muscle, Legacy are next in line on the executioner’s block. Interesting to hear Gobbins state this so boldly. Perhaps he’s reminding not only his line members, but Legacy listeners, that Legacy owes PH their very existence right now.

There was also a follow up discussion about what content would be on offer for Panfam if they did withdraw from Delve. “There would only be smaller groups” he stated “and they would not be interesting fights. I personally have zero interest in a war with VOLTA. No one is interested in blobbing over there.” As an aside, we should note that other PAPI members are quite content to be “blobbing” on VOLTA, taking advantage of the blue donut to take out smaller independent groups. He continued to make the point that some of his FCs had requested operations against VOLTA, but he informed them that these actions would not be SRP’d. He also touched on content against FI.RE but that was discounted as they, well, are blue. The crux of his point built on this simple fact: Panfam have to remain fighting the Imperium because the only other group in the game who aren’t blue are VOLTA.

A doctrine of failure

The audience was then asked which topics they wish to discuss, and the overwhelming majority selected “Tactics, Doctrines and Plans.” Audience members were perhaps hoping, like the rest of us, to get an insight or motivation on how the 102 alliances of the PAPI Coalition were planning on regaining some momentum and actually achieving their war goals. Instead, the listeners were subjected to a 20 minute chat regarding how the booshing destroyer held the keys to the gate.

PAPI have continued with their narrative of experimentation in 3-D for the past month with no tangible success. Booshing Command Destroyers are their latest craze. Attempting to MJD fighters off the gate, to be followed up by their mainline fleet, is clearly the product of the “best theory crafters” in the game. There was additional talk on the improvements to Tech 3 Cruisers and how without the skill loss they will be seen far more on the battlefield, with PAPI experimenting with their own doctrines in the near future.

Geopolitics: 50 Shades of Blue

The subsequent section revolved around Gobbins’ worldview at present. But, credit where it’s due – this section wasn’t too bad. He focused on the word “containment” and his thoughts on the narrative: “I don’t like the term containment – it sounds like sourgrapes,” he stated coolly. “The goal is to try to burn 1DQ, (34:50) burn those fortizars.” For interest, at the 34 minute point is the first time that achieving their war goal was mentioned in the 74 minute event. Gobbins then moved on to deliver his assessment of the situation. Instead of containment, he discussed the concept of influence and the Imperium’s inability to deliver it across the map.

Now, this is an interesting angle to take. Yes, the Imperium currently struggles to deliver hard-power on a scale that it could pre-war. But influence is not just delivered through gunboat diplomacy; there are multiple avenues by which exert it. Influence, at its core, is a cerebral notion. You are changing your enemies’ decisions based upon your actions. The illusion of force can be just as strong as actual force. There are scenarios where the Imperium can no longer have influence upon “structures in Pochven” but the counter is that our influence is keeping the remainder of the galaxy’s super fleets docked outside 1DQ for fear that we will break out.

In addition, the Imperium is cognitively winning this war. Redditswarm is dominating r/EVE; even hardened PAPI members such as MarcusMurphy are calling into question their leaders’ decisions. This is influence. To use the internet colloquialism, true influence is “living in your head rent free.” The more blunt analysis will reveal that, despite the Imperium’s lack of hard power across the galaxy, PAPI are still no closer to removing them from O-EIMK.

Bean Counting and SRP

The closing sections revolved around the end of scarcity, economic issues, and the revelation that PAPI SRP can take 2-3 weeks to be paid. Gobbins has taken interest in his line members’ woes, particularly with SRP, and assured them that this would be addressed. In addition, it was highlighted by an audience member that the PAPI contracts were at a higher price than their enemies’. Panfam had been importing assembled ships from Dronelands and passing the costs onto their line members. To remedy this, a new industry hub has been established closer to the front lines.

Finally, there was further discussion about CCP’s plans to end scarcity. “In CCP’s vision, scarcity has gone far enough,” he stated. “There are plans to end it, get ships back out into space.” The town hall concluded with points relating to the estimated 10 trillion in ISK that may be in the Reserve ESS Bank and possibilities of ESS Keys being released soon – but this was all speculation.

Overall, the address was a slow and steady affair that didn’t give any answers to line members on how long this war would endure. In contrast, The Mittani delivered a fireside chat with verve and force whilst the Imperium continues to harass PAPI on an hourly basis. Yet, Gobbins is not interested in the spotlight this war has offered, and has sat comfortably behind the spreadsheets and continued to feed his members exactly what they want to hear. Delve is safe; Goons can’t hurt PAPI and the Blue Donut is here to stay.

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  • Eve_Osir1s

    “The town hall concluded with points relating to the estimated 10 trillion in ISK that may be in the Reserve ESS Bank and possibilities of ESS Keys being released soon – but this was all speculation.” I doubt CCP is stupid enough to make what could be a fountain of content a ‘use the key get all the loot’ type of deal. I suspect CCP will make it so the keys can open up X amount of isk in the vault and if they were smart that could have a cooldown of a day or two.

    June 29, 2021 at 7:16 AM
    • Garreth Vlox Eve_Osir1s

      you’re giving the same people who had no clue their ratting changes would delete belts in systems that need those belts to grind sov in nullsec WAY to much credit.

      June 29, 2021 at 10:07 PM
    • Carvj94 Eve_Osir1s

      According to the recent blog post about it when you use a key you define a payout window and the bigger the window the more isk you get. Unfortunately that’s literally all the info they shared about it. So it sounds like there’s an upper limit on how much you can get assuming you don’t just get a percentage if you survive for the full payout.

      June 30, 2021 at 12:16 AM
  • Malcanis

    It’s notable that they’ve stopped even trying to deny that the blue donut is real and it’s them.

    Even a few weeks ago, reminding them of this elicited angry squeals.
    Perhaps it’s because the papi members who didn’t like the idea have all unsubbed, joined other groups or just plain aren’t logging in…

    June 29, 2021 at 8:19 AM
    • Moomin Amatin Malcanis

      But the PAPI blue donut intent on renting is good for the game. The goons however is a cult of brain washed North Korean government funded right-wing terrorist hate group, at least according to some.

      June 29, 2021 at 9:25 AM
    • Seir Luciel Malcanis

      There’s only so many times a person tries to teach a pig to sing; it is a waste of time and it annoys the pig.

      But here’s my article on the Serenity Superstition since you brought it up: https://imperium.news/the-serenity-superstition/

      June 29, 2021 at 7:49 PM
      • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

        “But here’s my NONSTOP SPIN on the Serenity Superstition since you brought it up”


        June 29, 2021 at 10:06 PM
      • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

        Yes the number of comments debunking your alter-reality was quite impressive. Do you still stand by everything you wrote there when you open up the in game map while listening to the last 2 PH townhalls?

        June 29, 2021 at 10:26 PM
        • Seir Luciel Moomin Amatin


          There’s still more fighting happening now than before the war and PAPI, without 1DQ to burn, will slowly (or even rapidly) start to dissolve into their areas after the war. The political situation will be strange, unstable, and new afterwards I wouldn’t be surprised if succeeding wars quickly follow this one. (WWII quickly followed WWI for these reasons)

          Goons are in survival mode, and their rhetoric shows. They need to convince themselves of irrational injustices in order to keep their tribalism cohesive. Wartime nations often make all kinds of wild claims to get through the night of war only to wake up the morning after and realize most of that was just to keep linemembers fighting and workers in the back working. This is especially true when a waring nation is losing, worried about morale, and Goons are no different.

          However I don’t suspect when PAPI dissolves goons will admit they were wrong. They will say I was wrong while PAPI was together, being serenity for a certain time, and thankfully now they’ve decided not to ruin the game and broken up. Goons will probably take the credit for it somehow, also. Maybe that they weakened PAPI enough during the war so that it broke up, thereby saving EVE from our nefarious plans. I’ll be waiting for it after the war.

          June 30, 2021 at 1:38 PM
          • Novartis Seir Luciel

            Ain’t your words then also applicable to PAPI rethoric about goons too rich/strong/whatever thing your leader decide to say for the moment? Since you blued nearly the entire null to beat(or try to since it seems to ‘not finished’ yet) goons to pulp, then PAPI could claim they save the game form the bad, aka goons aight?

            Wait, is goons really bad for the game then? If goons really bad for the game why the game is still there more than a decade after goons is inside the game?

            June 30, 2021 at 3:04 PM
          • shanemacgowansteeth Novartis

            Don’t expect Seir to keep the narrative straight. Like most of PAPI’s biggest cheerleaders, the narrative on what goons are or aren’t, despite never having experienced goons first hand, is whatever is most convenient to the narrative being spun. Even if it is immediately contradicted by the next sentence/paragraph/article. More experienced commentators than I have tripped Seir in his web of contradictions, and there’s usually two responses: a wall of silence or “grr goons, bad goons”

            June 30, 2021 at 3:21 PM
          • Seir Luciel Novartis

            If your argument is “you’re doing it too,” well, two wrongs don’t make a right.

            But as I see it this war was a reaction to the infinitely scaling wealth and power Goons capitalized on via the delve miracle. Goons were top dog but now others are making plays by teaming up, seeing if they can shake the status quo up. Frankly they’ve succeeded in that regard. But Goons have made enough enemies that, if at an advantage, PAPI’s going to try to inflict as much harm as they can.

            For some its personal. For others its just business.

            June 30, 2021 at 4:11 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

            You can see this war how you like. The reality is that it was and is a land grab by PAPI. This is something PAPI leadership are now happy to admit as well. Again you seem to dismiss that in 2016 Imperium was forced from its home by the very same people as now? How did they lose such a lead? How did they fail so hard? Why do you ignore again that TAPI asked Imperium to attack PanDaFam first? Is none of this convenient to your narrative?

            June 30, 2021 at 10:05 PM
          • Seir Luciel Moomin Amatin

            The reality is that it was and is a land grab by PAPI.

            Did you think people went to war without hoping to gain from it? What, are you trying to shame PAPI for practicing intelligent geopolitics? You caught us Moomin; we went to war thinking we’d be better afterwards. The secret’s out.

            Again you seem to dismiss that in 2016 Imperium was forced from its home by the very same people as now? How did they lose such a lead? How did they fail so hard?

            Dismiss it? I wrote my casus belli article on this very topic. I believe my words were “we dropped the ball.” It was a mea culpa. What more could a Goon ask for?

            Why do you ignore again that TAPI asked Imperium to attack PanDaFam First?

            According to the May 29 Push To Talk that you were a part of, some Goons think this was merely an attempt to draw Goons out of position: that Goons were the target all along. Don’t say I’m ignoring something when Goons themselves don’t even agree upon the history.

            June 30, 2021 at 11:10 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

            Love it. So you want CCP to pick up for the mistakes made by PAPI leadership as you cannot work it out yourselves? Come on now do you really want to use that line? PAPI won the Casino War. Imperium was homeless and the bottom of the heap with no space. Then after just 2 years Imperium had not only managed to catch up with the larger groups but somehow become more powerful than all of them combined.

            The comments from Push to Talk are perfectly valid given what has come out since. Do you trust your leadership to tell you the truth now? Is this the war you thought you would be fighting?

            July 1, 2021 at 4:59 AM
          • Novartis Seir Luciel

            oh, you do invent the monster inside your imagination the moment your leader say goons is bad for the game and need to be exterminated. Only the bad thing need to get exterminated, and what is more befitting to be exterminated other than monster eh?

            If you reaaaalyyy want people to understand your cause, don’t use the pubbie vs goons rethoric. That’s a decade old argument of casual vs hardcore. You’re getting nowhere just headbutting to the invisible wall.

            Tell us, what makes YOUR TEAM better than goons? What makes YOUR TEAM have a better argument for people to follow?

            July 1, 2021 at 2:42 AM
          • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

            So you did not listen to the PH townhalls where Gobbins takes credit for scarcity, advises that the current economic situation is favourable for PanDaFam, revises greatly the history of PH and their relationship with GotG and admits that after 1 year there is no plan to attack 1DQ?

            It’s an age old strategy to deflect from the question being asked and fabricate a reality that suits your own personal objectives. I will continue to watch it come from you as you move ever further from the “righteous cause” from where you started. ;-).

            June 30, 2021 at 10:02 PM
      • Jeet_Kundo Seir Luciel

        Is it still superstition when it becomes reality? Closing your eyes and plugging your ears doesn’t make it go away.

        June 30, 2021 at 2:43 AM
  • Moomin Amatin

    Will PH members ever thank Imperium for shaming Gobbins into reviewing the terrible system of SRP?

    June 29, 2021 at 9:27 AM
    • Guilford Australis Moomin Amatin

      My Imperium SRP is usually paid before I log out for the night, often within 15 minutes.

      But that’s because The Imperium (1) is organized, and (2) takes care of its people and thus attract good people rather than the cretins running Horde.

      ‘Okay, faithful Hordelings, you can just go on losing ships for the next 2-3 weeks before we get around to replacing the first one you lost three weeks ago.”

      June 29, 2021 at 12:02 PM
      • Even in 2017 when I was management in a relatively small wormhole mining outfit I made it a point to get SRP out within a couple hours after our budget roams which involved me sending people private contracts for fully fitted T1 frigates/cruisers at a heavily subsidized price to replace the hulls they lost. So it’s pretty pathetic when I hear a larger null group cant manage to simply send out isk or hulls

        June 29, 2021 at 6:27 PM
  • Guilford Australis

    PAPI: “We aren’t a blue donut ‘n we don’t want a blue donut, no sir.”

    Also PAPI: “We control nearly all of sov nullsec and need to maintain that equilibrium.”

    I believe this is what Seir Luciel calls “the Serenity 2.0 myth.” I still have some small measure of faith that one day, far down the road, while he’s drinking Ovaltine in a rocking chair at a retirement home, Seir will remember WWB and finally realize he was wrong about *everything.*

    June 29, 2021 at 11:56 AM
    • William Doe Guilford Australis

      At this point, Seir’s ideology are so deep within the propaganda mindset it’s plain disingenuous.

      June 30, 2021 at 1:14 AM
      • Garreth Vlox William Doe

        That’s the best part of buying into the group think, you never realize that you are being disingenuous.

        June 30, 2021 at 7:02 PM
        • William Doe Garreth Vlox

          It really is the perfect mix of delusion and cognitive dissonance.

          July 1, 2021 at 1:29 AM
  • Garreth Vlox

    “This equilibrium that exists right now is far more beneficial than the equilibriums we’ve had in the past for Horde; if we were, for example, to pull back from this war, it would go back to something worse for us.”


    “We as an alliance compared to goons are complete shit so to avoid being dumpstered in the future we will continue to camp t5zi and pray goons quit the game before our alliance as a whole unsubs to avoid the unfun-mobile I have turned horde into.”

    June 29, 2021 at 10:04 PM
    • William Doe Garreth Vlox

      Also seems like they’re completely scared shitless of Goons when obviously TEST IS NEXT. Horde can worry about their own ass in the future as they got their botter buddies in FRT to back them up anyway.

      June 30, 2021 at 1:11 AM
  • kwnyupstate .

    “The goal is to try to burn 1DQ, (34:50) burn those fortizars.”
    The goal is now only to TRY?
    Why no mention of keepstars huh lol?
    So they half-ass try and say mission accomplished?

    And why does it take weeks for SRP? What explanation is there?
    Either they got serious money problems or someone is super paranoid and one guy is doing all the SRP.

    June 29, 2021 at 10:24 PM
    • William Doe kwnyupstate .

      Classic sapi goal-post moving once again it seems.

      June 30, 2021 at 1:09 AM