What’s PAPI’s Casus Belli?: Too Big To Fail vs. Allowed to Lose

2021-06-16

Header Art by Major Sniper

As the war continues, I increasingly believe that this war is incredibly significant for EVE. I also come to believe that the consequences of it are even deeper than we initially realize. Some of this has already been spoken about, specifically relating to the politics of nullsec post-WWBII. For instance, Matterall – of Talking in Stations (TiS) fame – has made comments about not knowing what the map is going to look like after the war, nor the relations between people on that map. Nobody knows, though we know they won’t look like they did before. 

But beyond this, how WWBII ends will have farther reaching consequences than simply nullsec politics; how this plays out will alter the way players – prospective, new, and old alike – see EVE Online. It’s going to change the way people view personal and collective agency to alter the landscape of EVE – whether people believe it is possible to influence the political war machine that is nullsec, or whether that machine can only influence you, caught up like a surfer on a wave, forced to submit to wherever the Powers of nullsec take you. 

The issue at stake is whether it is possible for a large coalition group to lose, truly lose in EVE Online, or whether said groups are, or can become, too big to fail.

The Technical Front

This idea was questioned in a Polygon article entitled “EVE Online Is Getting Crushed by its Own Success” published January 15 of this year. The article recounts PAPI’s major loss at M2: 

The reason that Gianturco won the Battle of M2 (as it’s being called) is that so many people showed up for the climax that Eve Online literally broke down. Had the Battle of M2 gone off without a hitch, it would have been more than twice the size of the largest conflict that has ever been fought in the game’s nearly 18-year history.”

The Mittani and the Goons at large reject the idea that their victory was due to server malfunction (which is to be expected and planned for), but is instead due to the stupidity of PAPI decision-making: “It’s like an admiral complaining about losing a naval battle because he failed to take into account the conditions of the sea,” Gianturco told me, bursting into a fit of laughter. “It would be like at the Battle of Agincourt complaining, ‘Oh, yeah, well, we totally should have won. But there’s lots of mud! We charged up the hill into these guys with long bows, but if it wasn’t for the mud.’”

It’s a fair point, I suppose. It certainly is in line with The Mittani’s assertion that “the whole theme of EVE Online [is] harden the f*** up.” 

Image of the M2 Massacre

The Opposing View

Not everyone saw the meaning of M2-XFE the same way, however. A darker portent, also highlighted in the Polygon article, was expressed by Horde’s leader Gobbins: “When the war started I told my guys that the war would end when either [Mittani’s faction] break, or PAPI breaks, or the server breaks. The servers broke first. The future of the war hinges on CCP being able to guarantee a reliable playing field and the conditions to fight, otherwise [these large-scale wars] will stagnate because coalitions can simply grow until they are ‘too big to fail.’ In other words, to the size where bringing enough people to defeat you breaks the server before the fight can happen.”

Technological limitations and the fear of being “too big to fail” cuts both ways. Right now it’s a challenge for PAPI and a saving grace for The Imperium. In the future, any team able to gather enough people on the battlefield has an inherent, systemic defensive advantage in addition to the in-game advantages of structures, bubbles, tether, etc. In essence, it limits the advantage of having more numbers than the enemy; outnumbering foes isn’t scalable. 

To a large degree this is old news, just a rehashing of old back-and-forth arguments without resolution. But in the present moment, the risk of no-defeat conflicts hang over over EVE Online in the form of limited technology and an inability to support the scale nullsec war has grown to.

“Throwing up your hands is not the same as throwing in the towel,” explained creative director Bergur Finnbogason, also known as CCP Burger. “The kinds of changes needed to allow for 12,000-plus player battles are still years away.” Even if these fears are false, they may be be very real in the minds of prospective, new, and old players alike; it could lessen the amount of players willing to try a new game, thinking that the winners of yesterday will always and forever be the winners of tomorrow. This is a factor many new players already are suspicious of.

The Engagement Aspect

This is something I personally have felt, at brief periods. Earlier in the war, watching Talking In Stations, Caleb Ayrania provided a sentiment that stuck with me. To paraphrase: ‘After this war, even if Goons lose and have to move to lowsec, they will be back. And when they come back, I think they are going to be stronger, just like after the Casino War.’ At the time, I was thinking ‘Caleb, you’re nuts. Look what’s happening to them!’ But deep in the back of my head, I worried: ‘Could he be right? I suppose it happened before; maybe it could happen again.’

With the new economic and industry changes, I don’t think what happened after the first WWB could be repeated, or at the very least, not as easily. But if I am wrong, and Goons really are able to bounce back with no problem, there’s something kind of awful about that. Not for Goons, of course. But why go to war at all?

If they can’t really lose, then we can’t really win; why play the game if it was rigged before I even made my first toon? 

Image of protester during the 2008 U.S. financial crisis

This, of course, is exactly what Goons would have everyone believe about them. The propaganda game is strong with them, and one of the best ways to prevent wars you could lose is to convince potential enemies it’s all fruitless to begin with. This was one of the reasons Goons spammed so many keepstars in the first place; along with their military utility, those structures were also a tactic of intimidation, a pre-emptive symbol of demoralization.

‘You see all these? You’d never grind through them all in a million years; don’t even try.’

For this reason, I am very glad PAPI did grind through them, even just to show it could be done, as an elimination of that symbol of demoralization. I’d even argue that the grinding of these keepstars specifically was good for the game; it reinstated the principle that even the “impossible” could be done. 

The Right to Lose

What was striking when this war started was The Imperium started de-emphasizing their former success, the same success they had been so vocal about beforehand. Later, in a discussion on Push To Talk, Caleb Ayrania was affirming the sentiments PAPI alliance members to-be, saying The Imperium had gotten too big. The discussion went as follows:

Caleb Ayrania: “[It’s a] fact that there was a lot of groups that were starting to get a little bit scared of how The Imperium was ahead of everyone else. The Delve miracle was a problem, and its what the eco-teamers tried to resolve and fix a little bit.”

Moomin Amatin: “But do you think it was a problem realistically . . . the Delve model to me, as Arrendis rightly alluded to and everyone else here: it was a lot of hard work; it was min-maxing; and it was actually paying attention to the game.” 

Caleb Ayrania: “The point is everyone else was not playing the game like The Imperium, they were not min-maxing to this degree. I think it was Darkness and, up in the north, they were actually outperforming on bounty ratting. So it’s not like other groups were not trying to play the game as effectively as The Imperium. But they were not even reaching half of it. The fact that— I think Dunk said this on a show: That if it had gone on for another year or two it would have been completely impossible to do anything effectively against The Imperium. And I think that’s actually true.”

Arrendis: “Ok but let me ask you something. So what? I mean, don’t take that as flippant. But like, if we look at EVE, right? If we look at EVE as a PvP set up, why is it the group that is actually putting in the work is the one that should be punished? The playstyle gets nerfed, the resources get nerfed, we get attacked by the rest of the game. Don’t tell me there’s not some punitive measure. But my question here is, alright, why is it the group that’s putting in the work that’s putting the work is being punished rather than the guys who were too f***ing lazy and too f***ing arrogant to get out there and get their hands dirty and do the work.” (Being allowed to lose!)

Caleb Arrendis: Well, ok; let me put it like this. It’s not that I disagree with what you are saying and I think the eco-team is trying to land the changes in a place where it does not actually take away that option of winning. But the problem was that it was infinitely scalable.” 

TheMacCloud: “Caleb; the CSM, especially the CSM from The Imperium at that time told CCP that that was how it was going to go down. They said: if you [CCP] didn’t change this, this, and this, then this is going to be the end result. And CCP was like ‘well if it comes down to that, then we’ll change stuff.’”

Caleb Ayrania: “Basically, all of The Imperium could point at it and say ‘look, look, look, look how broken it is. Then finally [CCP] woke up and decided to finally create an eco-team and dedicate some time to looking at numbers and actually crunching that into something meaningful, and finding out ‘OK where is it broken?’ And then they owned it and said, ‘OK, yeah; we broke it.’” 

A Graphical representation of the “Delve Miracle”

Is The Imperium’s Right to Lose in Danger?

For Caleb, the main problem wasn’t that The Imperium were doing better than others, but their scale of increase was out of control. As anyone in EVE knows, it takes money to make money; the more money you have, the easier it is to acquire more. Ventures turn into barges turn into Rorquals turn into many Rorquals. The Imperium’s wealth was snowballing, and with that, so did its power.

The kicker: The Imperium’s powerful wealth engine was being injected with nitrous in the form of CCP game mechanics, sending The Imperium’s accumulative abilities into the stratosphere.

As Caleb put it, “had [the Rorqual meta] gone on for another year or two it would have been completely impossible to do anything effectively against The Imperium.” The Imperium was success multiplied by “infinite scalability.” It appears the problem got so bad that (according to TheMacCloud) Goons on the Council of Stellar Management were warning devs of their own wealth-making potential, warning CCP that if they didn’t make changes, the situation would become irredeemable.

The Results

Changes eventually came, but by that time, Goons had already made out like kings, planting Keepstars around their space like McDonalds burger joints. Even without the mechanics of infinite scalability from before, Goon power and wealth was still being fueled by their former golden age; they had the luxury of entering the next era starting on third base. 

But Arrendis makes a really good point: so what!? Everyone had the same mechanics to work with, and Goons worked damn hard to get what they got. Why should they be punished for being successful? Shouldn’t people be allowed to lose?; and, on the flip side of that coin, allowed to win?

My answer is a yes. In fact, I think being allowed to lose, and win, is essential for any healthy gaming motivation. Actions need consequences, lasting ones, painful ones – meaning somewhere along the way there has to be losers. Without meaningful consequences in EVE, one might as well play some other game.

Ironically, having losers in the game makes everyone a winner, with respect to having meaningful gameplay. Though I disagree with Arrendis’ and Caleb’s position that, when faced with losing, it is somehow “unfair” for “the rest of the game” to team up against the bigger foe. To those who do think it unfair for Goons to be attacked for their success I’d say, “This is EVE: harden the f*** up.”

Talk Shit, Get Hit?

I wonder, however, how many Goons would agree being allowed to lose extends to The Imperium, along with the rest of nullsec. I get the sense from many comments on INN that The Imperium should be protected from any meaningful loss.

I’ve been told Goons are the primary source of content in EVE, that if they died EVE would die with it. I’ve been told beating Goons, forcing them to taste real, effective loss, would be bad for the game. I’ve been told that PAPI is simply shooting themselves in the foot for even attempting to take down the greatest most powerful coalition in the game.

But I think these sentiments ultimately result in a kind of Goon plot-armor; narratively, Goons have convinced themselves that they are too big too fail. Not economically, or militarily, but in worth: the game would lose too much by losing them. But that’s ridiculous. Imagine BoB saying “We create the content. If we lose, you all lose!”BoB did lose, like so many groups that either collapsed entirely or downsized dramatically, recounted in Groen’s history books.

Reality Hurts.

It was a great thing that BoB fell! Why? Because they were the biggest! And not only this; after the scandal where BoB got caught getting developer help, the community of EVE needed to know BoB could fall.

For the good of the game, they needed to know that grit, will, and teamwork could overcome any in-game or systemic advantage. The EVE community needed to know that, with effort, any imbalance could be corrected by the community, and that the community had the power to do this. Goons defeating BoB was, it seems to me, as much about power as about principle: the principle that even the very tallest tree can be brought low. 

The cycle of death and rebirth shouldn’t be stunted by “Too Big To Fail” entities, lest EVE stagnate

Empires deserve to be great and have their moment in the sun. But they also deserve to fall, be built upon by the next empire, which eventually will fall and be replaced again. Death brings life; we “only continue to exist by devouring each other, in which, therefore, every ravenous beast is the living grave of thousands of others, and its self-maintenance is a chain of painful deaths,” said Arthur Schopenhauer.

The problem, though, as Caleb noted, is when success (perhaps even narrative success) becomes infinitely scalable. Once people start feeling immune to defeat, no longer “allowed to lose,” the whole death & (re)birth chain of EVE’s existence is upset. People start to lose faith that there’s much more EVE to play, much more history to write. If people start believing there are no future warlords that could create new future alliances and coalitions, people stop trying. And when people stop trying, EVE stagnates. 

What Is PAPI Fighting For?

Later in the May 29 Push To Talk episode, Caleb notes: “I think Moomin in one of his articles gave all the different casus belli of PAPI and none of them are agreeing. It’s like, they don’t have a unified goal; it’s just a joke!” 

Caleb is right; much of PAPI’s spoken reasons for fighting this war have been scattered, unorganized; however I would counter that, in a space pew pew video game, there doesn’t need to be any reasons more complex than 1) “I don’t like you” and 2) “Because I want to.” But to Caleb’s point, one of the reasons PAPI’s narratives haven’t been unified is quite simple – that’s what you get when you create a NATO or a Warsaw Pact.

The PAPI organisation is a conglomeration of multiple different agents with their own personal agendas, even many multiple agendas per alliance. At some point, trying to find a unified motive for aggression in a United Nations-style organisation starts looking silly. 

But that’s not to say PAPI members don’t have some unified motives in common. Far from it. Forget who the real Goonswarm Federation are; let’s talk about what Goonswarm Federation represents in the EVE consciousness.

The Reality of the Enemy

Goonswarm are the authors of BoB’s destruction, the enactors of the Delve Miracle, the stormtroopers of Burn Jita campaigns, the builders of The Great Wall of Keepstars. When I first entered this game, Goons were already established as legends, a colossus spreading its golden feet across the southwest, rich in history and weapons of mass destruction. Hated by some and loved by others, but always in the spotlight.

Collectivizing is often the only recourse against the powerful

Why do I think PAPI is fighting this war? Why are we so dedicated to tearing down Goons? What’s the true Casus Belli? It is summed up by the deeper fear under the surface of The Mittani’s taunt: “You blue the entire galaxy and you still couldn’t get it done!”

If The Mittani is right then alarm bells should be ringing: EVE is in trouble if the many can’t fight the few, or the rich. EVE is in trouble if anyone, my coalition included, becomes impossible to beat when the entire galaxy has voted with their missiles, lasers, drones, and artillery shells that an Empire’s time has run its course.

PAPI aggression starts with the same principle Goons once held when they fought BoB: no tree is too tall to be brought low. No (Delve) miracle is too divine toavoid having its feet put back on common earth.

In Conclusion…

Maybe Goons did outplay the rest of the game years back. Maybe Goons did work harder. Maybe the rest of the galaxy did drop the ball. Well, as Arrendis said, so what!? Are we pubbies just supposed to lay down and die, because Goons tell us to? Are we supposed to just accept that the future, our future, will always be dominated by Goons because years back they min-maxed better than everyone else on mechanics that don’t even exist anymore?

Not me. Maybe we are fighting for our future: a pubbie future! Maybe we’re fighting for redemption, goddammit! It isn’t an easy motivation to articulate because it doesn’t exist in-game, but in the minds of us pubbies; that’s why it gets expressed in so many, seemingly contradicting ways.

It is a belief that no one should be too big to fail. Not because they have too many members. Not because of the servers. Not because of M2-XFE. Not because of plot armor. Instead, it is because to die is the natural way of EVE, and to be immortal is an aberration against nature. Because immortality is a denial of the next generation’s right to exist and take your place. Because what was glorious about the past shouldn’t become the tyranny of the future.

Everyone, including Goons, and at this point especially Goons, should be allowed to lose. Because if Goons don’t lose, whether due to PAPI negligence or Goon brilliance, the reality is that the entire gaming community will ever after look at EVE Online with suspicion: “Did Goons really win because they were better? Or because, by that time, there was no catching up? Not with those servers; the game got too big.”

PAPI fights to prove that players – not wealth, not the servers – still decide the future of EVE Online. God help us if we lose.

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Comments

  • Paul Knight

    Literally “Goons must lose”, the PAPI narrative has shifted to one of total despondence – they know they’ve failed. So now it’s switched to a list of excuses.

    The fact of the matter is – SAPI is not prepared to pay the iron price to assault 1DQ, they wanted a risk-free, on-the-cheap invasion and now they are realising that goons won’t just roll over like every other alliance has in the past so are trying to save face.

    Lots and lots of words to say essentially the same thing as all the sapi screechers on reddit.

    June 16, 2021 at 8:18 AM
    • kwnyupstate . Paul Knight

      I thank the author of the article for doing an awesome job of exposing the PAPI mindset.

      June 16, 2021 at 4:51 PM
      • Xelistren kwnyupstate .

        I wouldn’t even stop there, I would go on to say how indoctrinated sapi line members are. The ones to quit showing up for the fights are the smart ones they have started to see that sapi is the exact thing the leadership of sapi is claiming they are fighting. This entire war’s real reasons from what I have read and understand stems from 3 objectives.
        Brave and a few others = good fights that result in fun content for all (in all honesty these groups will back out of the war if it quits being fun.)
        Tapi and a small handful of others = personal vendettas against the Imperium. (this group will be the hardest to quit but the line members will leave them eventually.)
        PanFam and most of the rest of sapi = this is a land grab designed to allow them to rent much more territory so they can rival a dedicated group of players with great planning on how to proceed. (when it appears they will lose end area for the war they will switch sides just to win in the end.)
        Any arguments against these from sapi members just show you how indoctrinated the sapi member is. From the goons we already know that sapi is misleading their members.

        June 16, 2021 at 6:05 PM
        • kwnyupstate . Xelistren

          I have seen this pathetic mindset in many games where noobs who suck whine and expect to be able to beat the big guys. After the war the headline will say that the Imperium couldn’t even be beaten by the whole rest of the game. PAPI will break up and the Imperium will clearly still be the most powerful force in Eve.

          June 17, 2021 at 1:01 AM
  • Rabid

    I agree with most of the article in terms of the current state of things, but there is a difference between being “allowed to lose” and being “forced to lose” which appears to be what you are pushing for here. “Because if Goons don’t lose, whether due to PAPI negligence or Goon brilliance, the reality is that the entire gaming community will ever after look at EVE Online with suspicion:…”

    War shouldn’t be a democracy. Just because you have the numbers and the logistics doesn’t mean you should automatically be handed the win. You still need to actually go through with it and pay your due. Just because its not ‘easy’ doesn’t mean its not ‘possible’.

    You want to wipe out (phrase used here to mean out of conquerable space) a dug in, hunkered down, well supplied and determined opponent, without having to actually risk losing anything significant. Of course you’re struggling! You SHOULD be struggling! Game working as intended!

    Yes there is going to be some feeds, yes your killboard won’t always be green, yes you risk actually losing the war. But you also risk winning it, which at this point is not the case.

    Or just chill. That works too. You’ve done your damage. I’m sure having an enemy that hates your guts sitting right next door won’t lead to anything terrible down the line.

    June 16, 2021 at 8:20 AM
  • Xelistren

    Ah seir what would we do without your nonsense. You have once again failed to see one of the areas that is most important. tactics are the one area that can determine the end results far greater then anything else. The goons had the tactical foresight to build of their treasury when they had a golden age, so that throughout the long term even if their economy got nerfed they would hold the funds to contend with large entities that can actually out scale with them. Now they showed that their keepstars were replaceable by ignore the defenses of most of them. from talks to some friends the goons still have the resources to build over 20 palatine keepstars which means they can reseed all of delve and fountain once sapi loses this war several times over. with a war chest that is so massive paired with tactical advantage that neutralizes numeric advantages, the goons would have to choose to fail if they were to fail, due to incompetence from sapi leadership. This entire war has actually lead to a point that would essentially caused the body of eve to believe that the goons are unkillable when the fact is they are not. in terms of chess I would go to claim that sapi leader is on par with a 5 year old beginner throwing fits when they fall into traps by the goons, who’s leadership would be equivalent to a 35 year old chess master who has numerous championships under their belt. 1DQ is without a doubt a cap trap in that the goons can have their caps in place and ready to go to outnumber any and all sapi caps that are allowed to warp in. just like in chess it doesn’t matter how much you have it matters how you use what you have. in chess all you really need to win is 1 pawn and a king.

    June 16, 2021 at 9:31 AM
  • Novartis

    I have much to disagree here.

    Yes, it’s right, during their golden age goons managed to acquire lots of wealth, and at that time they may surpass the other, however they did it at the same time as the other. All eve player at that timeline is presented with equal time and space, the only difference is what their choice did. If the think I just want to be lazy, and then complaint about their neighbor that is richer than them cuz he’s working harder, should he be punished because of it? If you say yes, then you’re just like a socialist. You just betray what you wrote about EVE economy Seir. If you say no he shouldn’t be punished, then what is the point of this article?

    P.S Goons is not too big to fall. You only need to have the gut to pay the bill to do it. Nobody wins a war when you think it’s enough to just send the infantry against enemy who is prepared to use its whole arsenal to fight.

    June 16, 2021 at 9:58 AM
    • Xelistren Novartis

      if anything goons are too prepared to fail. they maintain excessive reserves from golden ages to power through the droughts of life.a well prepared and coordinated attack plan from the start of the war would have seen the war end quickly due to the reserves not being usable.

      June 16, 2021 at 10:05 AM
      • Jeet_Kundo Xelistren

        We’ve never not had a target on our backs, peacetime is nothing more than preparing for the next war. We probably have the most forward-thinking nullbloc leaders in the game because of that very reason – we don’t know when the next big war is going to walk to our doorstep and they’ve only gotten larger each time they occur.

        June 16, 2021 at 10:10 PM
    • chthulan Novartis

      I just wish people who clearly don’t know what socialism consists of would stop using it as a random insult. Not everyone thinks socialism is a bad idea.

      June 17, 2021 at 6:54 AM
      • Novartis chthulan

        As I use the word for that from other Seir’s work, your concern might be for the wrong guys dude

        It’s here: https://imperium.news/the-myth-of-capitalist-eve/

        It’s also written by Seir, that’s why, I’m just using his own word from that article.

        June 17, 2021 at 11:39 AM
        • chthulan Novartis

          Thanks for the correction.

          June 17, 2021 at 1:19 PM
      • Xelistren chthulan

        I try to keep politics like that from my writing unless I am talking politics, however when 99% of people who live under a system of government say that the system is bad you need to look more deeply into why they are claiming it is bad. In the case of socialism it is the fact that it is very easily corrupted into favoring one person or group of people instead of the collective of people of the nation. Usually the cause of the power grab is the result of collective funds drawing critically low leading to extreme control being needed. In other systems the demand to support the individuals of the country tends to fall to the individuals not the government allowing more funds to be used for the smaller amount of requirements that the government has to do which at the same time provides far less opportunity for corruption. In theory socialism is actually the best government, but in practice it is worse then anarchy. as I have already stated it is only due to the levels, and opportunity for corruption. The least likely to be corrupted type of government hasn’t ever been seen in world politics yet because of the fact that the chances of corruption are virtually 0.001%, and it is a meritocracy. In a meritocracy only those qualified can rise up to take control and because of their qualifications they see little to no need to milk the system, instead they would constantly be seeking both self improvement and improvement of others.

        June 17, 2021 at 12:54 PM
        • chthulan Xelistren

          Oh boy, you’re so wrong. Most of Europe has opted for some elements of socialism, such as a national health service paid for partially or fully out of taxation, for example, together with benefits for those who are unable to help themselves, whether temporarily or permanently. That’s not anarchy, that’s civilisation.

          June 17, 2021 at 1:19 PM
          • Xelistren chthulan

            Nation healthcare is only a problem because of social programs. I have actually seen the Charge Master of multiple hospitals. stuff that costs in resources, including labor, under a dollar to make are being charges as much as $100. These prices were actually created to contend with the socialistic health care that insurance companies push.

            June 17, 2021 at 2:38 PM
        • Zaand Xelistren

          If you think that social welfare programs inherently lead to corruption then I’ve got some bad news to tell you about Capitalism.

          June 17, 2021 at 1:51 PM
          • Xelistren Zaand

            actually I never said that they lead directly to corruption I said that the government doing more then it should leads to corruption. and I know capitalism has corruption, every form of government has corruption.

            By a government pushing their system to the limits corruption is more likely to become common. even with modern capitalism the amount the government is too much and is showing in the US the level of corruption that they create.

            June 17, 2021 at 2:32 PM
          • Seir Luciel Xelistren

            As someone who has very strong political opinions and argues them constantly, cease. If I can’t convince Goons about probably anything, what hope do you have to convince the other of your political persuasion?

            The article of mine someone here referenced would be a better place for this discussion.

            June 17, 2021 at 2:37 PM
          • Xelistren Seir Luciel

            I know it is a losing battle convincing someone of provable facts, when they wish to use circular logic, it is why you annoy me so much.

            June 17, 2021 at 2:41 PM
          • Seir Luciel Xelistren

            Lol that snipe

            June 17, 2021 at 2:44 PM
      • Oolon Colluphid chthulan

        Venezuela

        June 17, 2021 at 1:41 PM
        • Hugo Chavev reaching from beyond the grave to rig an election and sap us of our precious bodily fluids.

          June 17, 2021 at 1:50 PM
      • Oh, goons know all about socialism: space socialism. SPACE COMMUNISM! It’s a thing. It’s why our alliance is strong and other alliances are weak and incoherent.

        June 17, 2021 at 11:17 PM
  • Elthar Nox

    It’s a really good article Seir. Top draw.

    Discounting server mechanics, Goons are beatable. But as you said 4 years of maxing the game – can it be beaten in 1year? Who knows.

    I get the PAPI intent. I’d love to chat offline about alternate war goals that would have resulted in victory!

    June 16, 2021 at 10:31 AM
  • Gray Doc

    A couple points I’d like to make, if not outright counters. I know you are reading, or have read, Groen’s books, so you also know that “losing” comes in many varieties. No group, ever, will be “too big to fail” because it can crumble from internal dissension. Many great organizations have been defeated, at the top of their game, by . . . themselves! Goons in the past, for example, under Karttoon. They went from top dog to gutter trash. And there are several more examples. Therefore, no group is EVER too big to fail, since it can fail from within. One of the most important features of the current incarnation of Goondom is that it has avoided internal dissension and has been united, and on that front, there’s just nothing like having everyone else in nullsec come at Goons to make them even MORE united. I think Goons will have a unified mindset for years to come, thanks to this very war, so the very thing PAPI was hoping to do – undo Goons – will be reversed. To use a crude and sad analogy, it’s a bit like 9-11. The U. S. got more united, not less, through that terrible tragedy. Second point: reverse your thinking. No one, even PAPI, should be too big to fail. If PAPI is too big to fail, you have Serenity, right? Think about it please. So PAPI must not now, or ever be, too big to fail, because then every new player who joins up in EVE, for as long as PAPI lasts, will just want to hop in on the “winning” side. But here Goons are, showing that PAPI is not to big to fail. By your very own arguments you should see this as a really positive sign in EVE Online. I do, for sure. And final point, which others have already made: in almost every aspect of life people want to achieve greatness, they try and get better instead of hoping others get worse. I mean, to become the world champion sprinter, because every other sprinter pulled a tendon, so you’ve become champion, would just be a hollow victory at best, right? Pandemic Horde should become the best by finding out why Goons became the best and then doing that thing even better than Goons. And don’t give me that “we aren’t starting in the same place” routine, because after the Casino War Goons were starting at zero, so the “starting point” routine just won’t wash. Instead, find out, and write some articles about, what other alliances were doing and where their money was going, while Goons were building up after the Casino War when then were absolute desolate. Then, you’ll understanding why some groups win and others don’t.

    June 16, 2021 at 11:19 AM
    • chthulan Gray Doc

      The meta game is why Goons have been so successful. It generates a culture, something worth fighting for outside the in-game stuff – though that’s a big part of it, despite CCP’s hatred of what we all achieved.

      June 17, 2021 at 6:51 AM
      • Gray Doc chthulan

        I completely agree. Goons have excelled at the meta game for many years and continue to do so now in 2021.

        June 18, 2021 at 1:55 AM
  • Guilford Australis

    PAPI’s only remaining plan for this war is to sit on top of The Imperium like a fat kid until we just go away. Is that what they characterize as “good for EVE?”

    Ironically, PAPI’s “bore The Imperium to death” strategy has been more effective against their own line members than The Imperium. PAPI fleet participation has declined by two-thirds since the start of the war, while Imperium participation has increased in recent months.

    It’s ludicrous to slobber about the necessity of The Imperium losing for the hallowed “Good Of EVE” when (1). The Imperium is not losing, and (2). PAPI is objectively killing its own coalition faster than it’s killing The Imperium.

    It’s also ludicrous to characterize PAPI killing undefended Keepstars as “the impossible.” The Imperium killed many Keepstars that WERE defended by the northern alliances before Gobbins ever got his first. We didn’t find that task to be particularly “impossible.” We also drove all of PanFam from their ancestral homelands into Malpais in three months, while PAPI couldn’t manage to get us out of Delve in a year and now just hopes we stop playing, as Gobbins and PGL have both publicly stated.

    June 16, 2021 at 12:02 PM
    • “PAPI fleet participation has declined by two-thirds since the start of the war, while Imperium participation has increased in recent months.”
      With that logic it shouldn’t be too hard to end this war then or do you lack stones to do it?
      “but PAPI is aggressor we win the war if we just survive” I wonder if Allies won WW2 by just “surviving” or did it require any kind of counter offensive.
      When does Imperium come out with a better plan than “Panfam must leave, they must”?

      June 17, 2021 at 4:41 PM
      • Garreth Vlox Dripple

        “With that logic it shouldn’t be too hard to end this war then or do you lack stones to do it?”

        Translation:

        “Hey goons we only outnumber you in active numbers 2:1 now…. why don’t you just jump your fleet into ours because we lost our balls after m2-?”

        June 20, 2021 at 8:22 PM
  • Techcat

    Goons aren’t too big to fail. They lost in the Casino War, and they have currently been pushed back into 1DQ.

    What’s the “lose” condition here that would be missing is those two scenarios above? Not being able to come back in any way at any time in the future?

    When I hear that Goons must absolutely lose in 1DQ (“god help us if they don’t’), that sounds to me like “previous hard work, strategy and dedication should be irrelevant and N+1 must be king every single time”.

    PAPI being able to push Goons is good for the game, and already proved a point.
    Goons reaping the fruits of their labor and holding the ground in their home constellation is good for the game, too.

    Arguing otherwise feels, to me, like an argument for mediocrity where hard work, proper strategy and good leadership should be irrelevant and all and everyone should be successfully ganked in N+1 at any time no matter how well prepared they are. Why work and prepare at all, then?

    Now if Goons had single handedly beaten any attempt by PAPI to conquer their territory, then I would agree that there would be a huge problem, but that’s obviously not what happened at all.

    June 16, 2021 at 1:00 PM
  • J Moravia

    It perplexes me that you see a single large coalition as a problem that needs to be destroyed, but you see a giant blue donut as a “triumph of diplomacy” as you said in a previous article.

    June 16, 2021 at 1:45 PM
    • Guilford Australis J Moravia

      I’ve never quite grasped the angle that The Imperium is bad for EVE because it’s too big and too powerful, so PanFam, Legacy, and WinterCo needed to form a coalition three times bigger and presumably more powerful to fight the problem of coalitions being too big and too powerful in EVE. It’s almost perfectly circular.

      June 16, 2021 at 1:53 PM
    • kwnyupstate . J Moravia

      Author shows how noobs think they deserve the access to results they screech for and is exactly how I pictured the PAPI line member. They probably think they have a right to some perverted social justice on Eve.

      June 16, 2021 at 10:03 PM
      • Xelistren kwnyupstate .

        I try to keep away from making those points because of the fact that they are tied too tightly to political stances. granted I agree but lets try and avoid potential political debates that might involve real world.

        June 16, 2021 at 10:08 PM
      • Kyeudo kwnyupstate .

        What else do you expect from a communist?

        June 23, 2021 at 10:16 PM
  • Eve_Osir1s

    This was well written! Though I disagree with a few points, such as blaming the server when PAPI tried to cut corners in M2. I especially like the part that defines quite a few PAPI’s motivations in this war. I had suspected that Joe PAPI was out for a combination of revenge and the classical boss fight of many little people versus a really big one coupled with a little regicide. While the leaders of PAPI have* stated some goals, I always envisioned it being like when Voldemort said “I can touch you now”. This idea of reaching something unreachable seemed more in line with their goals than what their leaders said. I had suspected it but I am a goon, I cannot know their perspective entirely.

    June 16, 2021 at 3:10 PM
  • kwnyupstate .

    “PAPI fights to prove that players – not wealth, not the servers – still decide the future of EVE Online. God help us if we lose.”

    You already lost; you spent a year destroying structures and now that the time has come to engage the Imperium’s capital force you are too scared to try.

    It is always about players and the Imperium has better ones whose are still willing to log on and fight and are willing to commit the resources needed to win whereas PAPI has quickly declining numbers who are too scared to use the capitals which are needed to even have a chance to win.
    PAPI’s players are still screwing around trying laughable sub-caps.

    June 16, 2021 at 4:42 PM
    • Garreth Vlox kwnyupstate .

      The best part of this whole war was CCP making it increasing harder for both sides to replace their losses in a war where one side started with a massive advantage in built up wealth, now that wealth is coming into play after scarcity and CCP’s other recent misguided nerfs. We all keep screeching about how scared papi is of their red killboards, but there is a second possibility.

      It’s entirely possible that between the first, second, and third feeds of m2- that papi just doesn’t have the money left to finish what they started. We know that several groups in tapi have folded from the strain, and at least requim was being propped up by test after being disbanded and looted from the inside. And we know brave is essentially flat broke without a papi funded bailout after their director level leaks. If test doesn’t have the money to continue fighting for real and pandafam is unwilling to pay the bloob price for tapi that would explain the almost 2 month long lul in the war we have seen.

      June 16, 2021 at 10:18 PM
      • kwnyupstate . Garreth Vlox

        PAPI still hasn’t SRPed all the losses from M2.

        June 16, 2021 at 11:46 PM
        • Xelistren kwnyupstate .

          wow and we were celebrating it in EE when TF took 2 weeks to SRP ships. Of course we were SRPing ships within 30m when we were warring against TF (if you could even call that massacre a war. I wanna say our kills vs losses was around 1.2t vs 10b isk.)

          June 16, 2021 at 11:56 PM
          • Novartis Xelistren

            God, the war with TF, I still remember the 7-BIX meme

            “I’m going to be frank with you, you’re just an indy alliance. After two weeks your line member will calling you to quit the war because they can’t do what they love the most, krabbing and shooting rocks.”

            It’s not about one side too big to fall, but about the group that have the ego too big to accept their real capability(go train up dude, not everyone born with the ability they need, you need to train, get the sweat to be able to do it!)

            June 17, 2021 at 3:34 AM
          • Xelistren Novartis

            yea we never let likander live that one down, just as how no one will let vily get away from his claim the war is for extermination here. I remember Gengar’s fear raid on TF that lead to us stealing one of their POS. their line members started fearing us badly at the end.

            June 17, 2021 at 3:56 AM
      • Brave couldn’t even fight off Delta Sqad by themselves: they’re out of their element.

        June 17, 2021 at 11:20 PM
  • GuardianDevil

    “PAPI fights to prove that players – not wealth, not the servers – still decide the future of EVE Online. God help us if we lose.” – I think an important aspect is quite overlooked in the arguments. It’s not the alliances or coalitions whose decide their actions but their leaders. Do you think the average goon line member is three times better than the average PAPI line member? That’s why you can’t win? It is your leaders who decided to perform on that level, they simply failed to step up to the level of the Imperium. And they perfectly know it. They can’t or won’t play the current meta on the level it’s needed to be on par with us. Even if they win this war it’s only a matter of time for us to rebuild and be the strongest again. That’s why they are pushing the warden system, it’s the only way to prevent the second “Delve Miracle”.

    For this reason anything CCP does with the game is pointless, because in a given environment Goons will perform on the highest level. And it’s not because we are too big to fail, it’s because we are putting in more effort than you.

    The only way you can best us is to have a competent leadership and match our metrics. But you failed to do it in the past 5 years so I can’t see any reason you will do this in the near future. And that’s the biggest difference between the two sides, your leaders want to go the easy way in war (blue donut) and peace (renting) and it shows in the performance when things are anything but easy.

    Don’t lay down, don’t accept the future, work/play harder to shape it how you want to see it.

    June 16, 2021 at 6:05 PM
  • Zaand

    This entire article is premised on your own bias. You outnumber us 3:1, yet you can’t defeat us not because Goons are “too big to fail”, but because Papi leadership is too incompetent, too cowardly and too cheap to do what must be done to win. You refuse to pay the tax that sending Goons to NPC Delve (because if you think we’re just going go fuck off to low sec then you’re way too deep in your own narrative) will cost you.

    We are prepared to lose literally everything we’ve built over the last 5 years to keep our home. Are you willing to do the same to take it from us? You want to dig us out of Delve, then you’re going to trade supers and titans, and you are not going to trade evenly. Otherwise, you might as well just run as far away from us as you can now, because we’re not going anywhere and Test is next.

    June 16, 2021 at 6:51 PM
  • DrkyDrky

    If papi wants a shot at winning this, they really need to risk their entire supercapital fleet against the Goons. Be willing to jump them thru the 1DQ gate.

    Otherwise, there’s no realistic chance of beating Goons

    Forget about taking a low-risk path to victory, it does not exist. It’s ALL OR NONE for both sides.

    June 16, 2021 at 7:27 PM
    • Xelistren DrkyDrky

      moving caps through the gate would mean death for said capital ships. the big advantage of using cynos is that you can avoid choke points to being your caps and supers in without having to rely on the gate protection.to bring in caps into 1DQ sapi needs to flood the gate first with countless subcaps and hope the caps go unnoticed until there are enough loaded in to fight and win against the cap fleet waiting on them. problem with this tactic is that a compressed enemy can actually handle the subcap flooding well by using AOE attacks like the bombers the goons have used to punish sapi since the siege has began. In the end due to the compression of the Imperium fleet the only safe way to bring in caps and not lose them almost instantly is to take the jammer via subcap attacks which is next to impossible due to the same reason they need the caps gone for. a real chicken and the egg problem. sapi can’t take the jammer without the caps dealt with which they can’t deal with without their own caps, which requires the jammer gone.

      June 16, 2021 at 9:04 PM
      • Garreth Vlox Xelistren

        “to bring in caps into 1DQ sapi needs to flood the gate first with countless subcaps and hope the caps go unnoticed until there are enough loaded in to fight and win against the cap fleet waiting on them.”

        Not true at all. There is a very simple way of solving this problem, goons demonstrated it perfectly in m2-, it involves competent pilots following competent FC’s offlining the cyno jammers, then you light your cyno and jump in the caps both defenders and attackers face the same odds at that point as BOTH have to load the grid before they can fire. But papi doesn’t have the guts for this they are too afraid to feed a few billion in subcaps to reff the jammers. The ONLY thing holding papi back at this point is the color red on their killboard.

        June 16, 2021 at 10:14 PM
        • Xelistren Garreth Vlox

          the problem and difference is that the goons already have caps stationed and ready for attack in 1DQ. In M2 both groups had to jump them in so sapi was given the chance to keep even. In 1DQ sapi would be playing catch up (also means that goons turn off the cyno jammer which they don’t have to to bring caps.) which makes jumping in impossible for caps to do safely. without the need to turn off the jammer the goons force that method until sapi manages to break it which had sapi planned wouldn’t have been the case. this is a case of each not having the same footing because one side already has their ships in place without the need to bring them in. the main reason to build a fort is to gain this kind of advantage in combat which the goons have already established.

          June 16, 2021 at 11:50 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Xelistren

            “which makes jumping in impossible for caps to do safely.”

            as I explained you can go a long way toward negating that danger by jumping your caps in to system away from the goons caps and forcing the imperium to have to warp in caps to a fight and wait through a tidi warp and a tidi grid load, bubble the imperium caps before lighting your in cyno and you even things out even more.

            June 17, 2021 at 1:04 PM
          • Xelistren Garreth Vlox

            yes except it is a bottleneck, there is no need for the goons to move their ships. they can just focus on 1 spot and they don’t have to worry about that.

            June 17, 2021 at 2:44 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Xelistren

            It’s like you didn’t even read my original comment. As I explained first you down the jammers, then you cyno in off grid, forcing goons to either let you load uncontested, or force them to warp to you in heavy tidi negating their pre-loaded grid advantage. There are ways around the roadblock legacy is smashing their face into these last several weeks, they just aren’t bothering to try and go around.

            June 18, 2021 at 1:15 AM
          • Xelistren Garreth Vlox

            I actually believe it is you not reading. I stated that sapi has to down the jammer, but with the way to it as it is, they would first need to break the preloaded ships to even get to attempt to down it.

            June 18, 2021 at 6:12 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Xelistren

            And your suggestion to breaking pre-loading is idiotic.
            Just dumping massive numbers of subcaps in hoping you get a few caps through is never going to work as those subcaps you are dumping in will just make the caps take even longer to laod grid and the second the enemy can see them they are going to be instantly primaried. As I originally explained the key to pulling this off is to send in sub cap fleets when there is no timer planned so you don’t have to fight through 1000 ppl camping the gate and with those sub caps you have to reff all 3 jammers. This will have a cost and papi simply needs to pay it. Then they can cyno in past the bottleneck as they please.

            My original post explained all of this and you just ignored the parts you wanted to so you could say it wouldn’t work. The imperium did EXACTLY what I am suggesting to set up the m2- fight and it worked perfectly, and we didn’t have to feed thousands of subcaps or caps on a gate to get the job done.

            June 18, 2021 at 9:52 PM
      • Basic Logic Xelistren

        I guess that PAPI should have considered this before condensing all of goons into 1 constellation. It is a tactical blunder on the part of PAPI that they find themselves in this predicament.

        They have nobody to blame but themselves.

        There are 2 reasons that PAPI has not defeated goons:

        1. PAPI is not willing to risk everything to win, where goons are.
        2. PAPI’s leadership allowed their egos to influence their tactical decisions.

        This war was never going to be won by PAPI without losing almost everything themselves. That is what happens when you fight an opponent willing to fight to the last man.

        That sentiment is the essence of what makes the Imperium the best in EVE online. That is why we did not crumble. That is why we did not fail cascade. That is why we will still be sitting in 1DQ until somebody makes us leave. And PAPI does not have the intestinal fortitude to charge up that hill.

        June 17, 2021 at 7:15 AM
  • Mr Augur

    Oh PAPI isn’t suported by Cassino money so hard work should be punished.

    June 16, 2021 at 8:33 PM
  • Garreth Vlox

    Seir is just mainlining pure copium at this point, and who can really blame him? He bought all the leaders spin through the many long months because he believed in them, he stuck with the constantly moving goal posts the entire way as they constantly tried to tune down their expectations and distance themselves from vily’s constant parade of bullshit claims. And now he’s stuck with the rest of them in T5ZI as they all slowly start to realize their leaders lack the guts to carry this war to it’s bloody, expensive, server straining, TIDI inducing conclusion with a true invasion of 1dq1. Instead they are slowly being fed to the goons one subcap feed at a time.

    June 16, 2021 at 10:06 PM
    • William Doe Garreth Vlox

      Yup, he went radio silent on the debate thread comment section with Gray Doc debate article last week. Or maybe this article was his rebuttal to all the legitimate points countering his arguments.

      June 17, 2021 at 12:49 AM
      • Seir Luciel William Doe

        I went radio silent because even Seir Luciel needs a break from arguing over online videogame forums. My fiance has no idea how I have the patience, or even the desire, to enter here at all.

        June 17, 2021 at 2:16 PM
        • Elithiel en Gravonere Seir Luciel

          I actually appreciate you coming here and discussing with us. I may not agree with you, but I do respect you doing so.

          June 21, 2021 at 5:49 AM
  • Jeet_Kundo

    PAPI has to pay their pounds of flesh if they want to win, they don’t seem to want to win that badly. I think leadership has finally realized that they’re going to have to field everything they have for a chance, and they won’t do it for one reason alone – they will be naked to the rest of the game. I’m not one for movie quotes but it’s a fitting one: “The laws of celestial mechanics dictate that when two objects collide, there is always damage, of a collateral nature.”

    This is the shift in win conditions, they will get nothing more than a Pyrrhic victory with blood in the water and no means to enforce their will; PAPI cannot survive if they accomplish their objective, and that scares the shit out of the most vulnerable group among them….whose leader is unironically the most vocal and egotistical out of the bunch.

    June 16, 2021 at 10:26 PM
  • Deni'z von Meanace

    Dear Santa, here we are the PAPI’s higher command management team asking you to destroy evil bees with snowflakes and snoballs and frozening their bad arses. Unfortunately we can’t do anything to them and nevertheless we’re outnumber them by 3:1 ratio. We promise to be a good boys.

    Sincerely yours Vily aka Piggles.

    June 17, 2021 at 12:21 AM
  • Vertigoe

    PAPI suffers from being separate coalitions, neither one of them want to be on the losing or winning supercap fight against goons that leaves them weakened against the other members of their mega coalition. Who cares if you win the Titan battle but you are Panfam and you now have fewer titans than TAPI and vice versa.

    They are paralyzed by that fact, has led to this strategy that is boring the game to death.

    June 17, 2021 at 1:31 AM
    • Dripple Vertigoe

      You know why PAPI isn’t 1 single entity? It’s because even after all that Imperium propaganda how PAPI is “RMT” “Botters” “serenity v2” “nullsec stops existing if goons lose” PAPI is a temporal alliance and every alliance will have to make plans to time post-war

      June 17, 2021 at 4:20 PM
      • Vertigoe Dripple

        Hmm tell that to the leaders of your coalition who have stated otherwise.

        June 17, 2021 at 9:08 PM
  • I think this is the most telling bit in your entire piece:

    “When I first entered this game, Goons were already established as legends, a colossus spreading its golden feet across the southwest, rich in history and weapons of mass destruction. Hated by some and loved by others, but always in the spotlight.”

    You (and presumably a large swathe of the PAPI membership) are simply too new to EVE Online to know Goons as anything but the wealthy and powerful. You didn’t witness our origins, you weren’t around to see us repeatedly curb-stomped and broken, only to beat a swift return into galactic geopolitical relevance. You act like we were simply born into power and that you and the rest of your mega-coalition naturally ought to have a right to the same quantities and qualities that we possess. This is the single best, broadly-applicable, defining characteristic of your faction, IMO. PAPI may (as you claim) be far from monolithic in its interests and persuasions, but you all seem to share these common attributes: you’re lazy and entitled.

    This entitlement oozes from every one of your (by which I mean, your coalition’s) Reddit threads and political narratives. It permeates every AAR. PAPI members feel entitled to the same levels of wealth and power that their opponents have achieved, but they do not feel any significant demands ought to be placed on them in the process of achieving these things. M2– since you mentioned it– is a perfect example of this: your leadership was greedy for a crushing victory, and felt entitled to that outcome based on their ability to rally huge numbers of well-equipped allies to their cause. In their hubris, they elected to yolo onto a hot grid covered in pre-loaded enemy supercapitals, resulting (predictably!) in an absolute routing of PAPI’s supercap fleet. When this absolutely predictable outcome unsurprisingly came to fruition, PAPI’s lazy and entitled leadership instead blamed CCP for the results of their incredible lapse of judgement.

    Throughout the war we’ve seen PAPI participate in narratives of sloth and entitlement over and over again: picking the laziest strategies, making dumb, lazy gameplay decisions, constantly rage-pinging for more people instead of using their brains to solve tactical problems, blaming their repeated failures on their enemies, on the servers, on whatever scapegoat happens to be closest to their nightstand at the time, all while simultaneously victim-blaming the enemies they chose to attack and claiming “PAPI had to do it for the good of the game because the Goonies were just too powerful.”

    PAPI need to stand up and own their mistakes. This war started because the various members of PAPI all agreed that it was fundamentally unfair that they hadn’t become as rich as Goons, despite putting in approximately none of the work. This campaign has dragged on for a year (or more? I can’t remember) now because PAPI leadership consistently pursue the laziest, least-imaginative paths to victory– primarily relying on sheer numbers, weaponized boredom, and waiting for their enemies to fatigue out and no-show rather than making plays or taking interesting fights. When PAPI do attempt to “make plays,” it invariably seems to end in disaster, as their leadership seem to consider it beneath them to waste their time contemplating multiple scenarios or considering the potential consequences of their actions. After all: they have more dudes. They have more supercaps. Of course they should win these fights.

    Lots of jokes have been made about what a shame it is for PAPI that Reddit upvotes don’t win wars, but there is a real element of truth in this sort of humor. It really does seem like PAPI members, by and large, believe that as long as they’ve got a lot of people all agreeing that they should win, then they obviously should be the winners. But that’s not how the real world works, and that’s certainly not how we should want EVE to work. War is not a popularity contest, and nobody in this allegedly-sandbox game should feel entitled to wealth and power. Wealth and power are the result of putting in work and taking risks. At the end of the day, you can whine all you like, but Reddit upvotes do not win wars. Soliciting a hundred-thousand allies alone does not guarantee success. Having more supercapitals doesn’t mean you don’t need to concern yourself with their positioning.

    To succeed at EVE, You. Must. Put. In. The. Work. Goons do this consistently: that’s why we succeed over and over again, despite the ill-will of others, despite the fact that the servers don’t always perform the way we like, and despite the fact that we’re reliably gang-fucked into the dirt on a recurring basis. Goons are smart, Goons aren’t lazy, Goons are willing to work smart and hard to get what they want, and when they do, they use that money to help their friends. PAPI are a bunch of individual egos who all agree in their collective whining sessions that they should’ve had a Goonly slice of pie, and then reluctantly conspire together in order to gang up on Goons to get it. Goons are a bunch of fat, jolly gentlemen who enjoy playing games together and say, “Let’s go have fun: what should we do today?”

    June 17, 2021 at 2:59 AM
    • Xelistren Ganthrithor

      exactly the facts that kept me in pantheon, the goon coalition, on EE I could have left and joined any number of groups but I chose to leave an alliance that was associated to the goons to join the goons because of the fact. almost every time I have time to rejoin the goons Uriel and a bunch of others give me a break down of the changes and help me get back in. Goon doesn’t mean friend or enemy it means one family working together to achieve greatness, and they show that every time I look at them.

      June 17, 2021 at 3:27 AM
    • Sikhtar Ganthrithor

      He is also conveniently missing that BOB was taken down by a coalition that was fuelled in large parts by the T20 scandal and the fact that BOB was simply cheating to keep dominance. Goons have not cheated, they have just outplayed everyone else in everything outside of PVP. But PVP is all many of the elite PAPI alliances care about.

      June 17, 2021 at 9:06 AM
    • Seir Luciel Ganthrithor

      Good comment, in a way. Here’s the irony from my perspective. Goons have come to the conclusion, maybe rightly, that no matter what they do they will always be hated. Goons have said they fight an enemy that has already and forever made up their mind about them. I would say the same is true for the “pubbies” of EVE.

      Goons have already made up their mind about pubbies. They’re lazy and entitled. Period. So the narrative goes. But when we actually start doing the things you say, working: grinding down thousands of structures, sitting for ours in boring bashing fleets, campaigning the longest war in EVE’s history, restructuring mining fleets to incorporate new economics, sitting for hours as we clear multiple regions, pushing back against our military and economic rivals, putting titans on the line, even losing massive amounts of them etc.— in the end we are only going to be mocked for it. Because we are lazy and entitled pubbies. Goons have made up their minds about the rest of the galaxy; no matter what we do we’ll never earn goon’s respect: no point in trying to change their mind.

      No one upvoted your 40some keepstars out of existence. This is us working. And if that means climbing on someone else to get to the top of the mountain, well, that’s EVE. That used to be goons before they became the top dogs themselves. That’s how they got there. At the end of the day this is a PVP game: not rorqual simulator (I suspect Goons have a rather specific definition of “work,” as clearly not all activities do Goons consider “work”). I know Goon’s story, Granthrithor. I may be new but I know where you came from. But that was a long time ago. You’re aren’t those scrappy goons any more, so why do you seem to be expecting to be treated like your still as scrappy as the good old days?

      The point: PAPI started working about a year ago in a major way. Goons immediately started mocking and continue to mock. So it goes.

      June 17, 2021 at 1:55 PM
      • Zaand Seir Luciel

        There you go again with this narrative that Goons are the big bad evil empire that must be demolished. I’m sorry, but if losing everything we had, moving an entire coalition to the other side of the map with nothing to our name but the clothes on our back, securing an entire region while being chased by the rest of the game, then rebuilding into the most powerful economic and military force in the games history isn’t the definition of scrappy, I don’t know what is.

        June 17, 2021 at 2:02 PM
        • Seir Luciel Zaand

          Look Zaand, at some point what Goons had to work for and are losing isn’t my problem. I admire goons for what they’ve accomplished. But I’m not a Goon, and I’m looking out for my team,my coalition, looking out for our success. If Goon decreasing means my side increasings, that’s just how the cookie crumbles.

          You don’t even need to be a big bad empire. But it helps.

          June 17, 2021 at 2:07 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

            “You don’t even need to be a big bad empire. But it helps.”

            You are literally the entire nullsec map at this point you dope.

            June 20, 2021 at 8:21 PM
      • Novartis Seir Luciel

        Goons continue to mock you because you lack one of the factor for respect, time. In most people book, the respect they could give to someone is the result they bring, and the time they need to get that result. You can see from multiple example that if you can finish your studies faster than other people, lots of people will respect you(and some of the fastest like 12 yo boy getting into university or something will make it to the news). See? PAPI might get the job done, but it takes much, much more time than the others, much more than what goons had predicted the time it took for themselves to fall from PAPI. Current goons mock isn’t about what PAPI did, but for how long does it take for PAPI to get a result. That’s the thing goons mock about PAPI.

        Can you respect people that took 4-5 times more time to do the same job as other people? If you say no, then don’t complain if goons keep mocking PAPI. That’s what happening.

        June 17, 2021 at 2:15 PM
        • Seir Luciel Novartis

          Last I checked grinding Goon space and keepstar spam wasn’t a time trial, where the EVE community has the benefit of seeing which player has the fastest time. Goons are putting PAPI up against a mythical, goon generated straw man who, no matter how fast PAPI would have gone, the straw man would have gone faster.

          Being faster than your straw man isn’t a challenge I can win, and so its not one I’m particularly embarrassed about losing.

          June 17, 2021 at 2:24 PM
          • Novartis Seir Luciel

            oh, EVE community, moreover your community(PAPI) do benefit from it the most, I’d say. The quicker you did this war, the easier for people to see who’s the winner, and much more people would jump to your cause, perhaps some without knowing entirely for the initial reason(some people do love to bandwagon you know). It’s good in retaining the number of player that would willing to do the next grind. Time is an investment for a player. They invest their time in the hope that they have fun from that. A fast paced war guaranteed those player they’ll have fun they want from the time they invest. Current PAPI strategy now just make sure that the fun for their time investment is a might or might not happen at all. I mean, if you just hoping for a crack to appear at the dam, you’ll might be at grave and the dam still won’t fail, unless there’s some other force in effect that quicken the crack of the dam.

            June 17, 2021 at 2:40 PM
          • William Doe Novartis

            Agreed. sapi morale you can tell despite all their cope seems to be fairly low. If they were able to actually take down 1DQ in 2020, then expand outwards taking out the rest of Delve, Fountain and Period Basis – they’d have dealth a brutal blow to Goons and Imperium overall and their morale would be sky high, sapi would actually have a stronger case of saying they’re the victor early on if they pulled that off.

            Instead they circle jerk about killfeeds and killing abandoned structures from months ago as a means to delude themselves in thinking they could still win this war as Goons are still spitting in their face telling them to harden the fuck up. It’s cope week after week for CRAPI. sapi can still win this war, but from the looks of it, they don’t have the balls to pull it off, and only thing the Imperium has to do is survive as the blue donut crumbles.

            Slight off topic, looking at the SOV map, it seems AoM is moving to Esoteria. From what Norhaus has said in a previous FRT plans several weeks back, they plan to go after whoever is residing in Esoteria, with AoM there it looks like we may resume seeing FRT beating up on AoM again as another fun distraction for the war.

            June 18, 2021 at 1:24 AM
          • Jeet_Kundo Seir Luciel

            It was a time trial. You don’t have infinite momentum, it diminishes over time, and in playing the risk-averse war turtle, the window of opportunity closed. Not so much the opportunity to win, but more so the opportunity to win without suffering heavy losses, and destroying yourselves in the process, in the final battle. The more time you take to drag yourself to our door, the more time we have to fortify it. You’re here now, you’re banging really hard on the door, but you just can’t seem to blow it wide open.

            June 17, 2021 at 5:28 PM
          • kwnyupstate . Seir Luciel

            It is a time trial because you took so long that the Imperium wasn’t overwhelmed and instead is concentrated with little of its strength diminished.

            June 18, 2021 at 1:21 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

            “Goons are putting PAPI up against a mythical, goon generated straw man who, no matter how fast PAPI would have gone, the straw man would have gone faster.”

            No literally every hot war in eve ever has been decided faster than this joke of a dragging war you are trying to pull off. You guys are alone in sucking this much at winning with odds that favor you as much as the current ones do.

            June 20, 2021 at 8:20 PM
      • shanemacgowansteeth Seir Luciel

        “Put titans on the line”

        I’m sorry, you got so badly dumpstered, twice, that you put your titans under a nice umbrella of friendly cyno jammers and basically dared us to gate ours in and mocked us for not defending our keepstars as you “grinded them down” along with the rest of the structures. Ye gods, you SAPI dorks just keep re-writing the narrative to make it look like you’re the good guys saving the game from the big bad goons but you’re just playground bullies who’ve unfortunately just now been found with their pants around their ankles and everyone is point and laughing at you

        June 17, 2021 at 3:21 PM
        • I’m sorry fellow dork, you weren’t the cool guy who thought you were and could just run your mouth without consequences?
          PAPIs road haven’t been a smooth one, but atleast we aren’t pushed into corner, where all you can do is bark.

          I’m really sorry that PAPI doesn’t play the game way you want, maybe you should get tougher?

          June 17, 2021 at 4:12 PM
          • shanemacgowansteeth Dripple

            I mean, you idiots are doing a SWELL job of getting rid of us. As someone on the inside of goons, all you’ve done is push us into a constellation. Well done, throw yourselves a party! In reality, our supercap fleet is untouched, we’d already uprooted most of our structures while you were flailing in Fountain & Querious for the second time – remember when you glassed then lost those regions early on in the war – our finances remain strong and our immense stockpiles are slowly being converted into hulls which you risk-adverse cowards refuse to shoot. I cannot stress this enough though: nothing SAPI have done, except take a lot of space – has damaged Goons in any way, shape or form. We’ve all taken several holidays from the game while you have had to grind athanor after fort after astra after azbel. We’re fresh and have found alternative income streams, hell some of us are better off than the start of the war. SAPI are actually going to have to try and hurt us for this war to impact us, because at the moment, they ain’t

            June 17, 2021 at 4:31 PM
          • Xelistren Dripple

            it is called using tactics, the goons just needed to apply token resistance to get you into a bottleneck where your options are either you play goons way or you don’t play. sapi fell for a faint hook line and sinker. Now sapi can’t goad out the caps to have their own M2 but any and all attempts for sapi to bring caps into 1DQ will lead to said cap’s destruction. a well planned attack chooses the battle location that is their greatest advantage. unfortunately sapi let the goons control the locations of the battles and that allowed the goons to do a Fabian play. Now any and all battles involving delve being attacked by sapi is against a well stocked fort that could take years to defeat. are you guys ready to be stuck in delve fighting a war for that long? I know the goons are.

            June 17, 2021 at 4:32 PM
          • Gray Doc Dripple

            When I compare a reply like this with the Ganthrithor reply above, I’m just glad I’m a Goon. Other than Seir, can any of the PAPI folk write something coherent?

            June 18, 2021 at 2:06 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Gray Doc

            No, they can’t. It’s why they only post on reddit where all their friends can circle jerk upvote their shitposting.

            June 20, 2021 at 8:18 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Dripple

            “but at least we aren’t pushed into corner, where all you can do is bark.”

            You actually are, the second papi leaves t5zi the imperium can do whatever it wants, and you just spent two months proving you don’t have the balls to finish the fight you picked in 1dq1. We aren’t locked in here BY you, you’re locked in here WITH us and your leaders clearly have no fucking clue how to actually attack 1dq1 besides feeding double digit billions in subcaps a few times a week.

            June 20, 2021 at 8:18 PM
      • Another tell: “…no matter what we do we’ll never earn goon’s respect.”

        Who fucking cares? This is another thing that Goon culture finds fundamentally unrelatable about the cultures of the various elements arrayed against us. About “elite PVP” culture in general. Why, why why WHY do you guys care so much about respect and/or “proving yourselves?” It’s a video game, my dudes. You’re supposed to enjoy yourselves, not spend 50,000 man hours per week sitting in bloated HAC fleets shooting at structures.

        Sure, Goons did a healthy portion of grindy, heavy lifting during the Great War, but only because we really disliked Sir Molle’s elitist idiots and wanted to make them cry. They, by the way, were engaged in a program similar to PAPI’s: one where they declared themselves Top Doges and began conquering regions left right and center, forcing residents in those places to pay tribute or be eradicated. They flaunted the biggest fleets, they maintained an effective monopoly on the ability to field T2 fleet comps and titans. They crafted a blue donut of sorts for themselves, with Molle and his egomaniacal henchmen at the top taking money from everyone else, further augmenting their wealth with stolen / conjured T2 BPOs, and crushing anyone who resisted out of existence with their remote-doomsday oppression.

        By comparison, Goons over the past few years have done nothing of the sort. We’ve made a lot of money, sure, but we’ve essentially lived out of a handful of regions confined to one quadrant of the cluster. We’ve mostly kept to ourselves, content with farming space riches while generally being the target of the vast majority of the game’s small gang PvP / “whaling” operations. At one stage we briefly went north to burn some castles down before returning to Delve. Yes, we do other high-profile “nasty” things, like run our “Burn Jita” campaign once a year, but when have we sought to systemically oppress nullsec? Sure, we’ll go mow the lawn from time to time, but you don’t see us angling to “crush people out of existence.” You don’t see us bluing the entire galaxy in order to wage a Foreverwar against other alliances or coalitions. You don’t see us forcing small groups out of a diverse set of far-flung regions in order for us to further-expand our botting fiefdom rental schemes.

        Goons have mostly kept to ourselves. We’ve lived in Delve, Querious, and Period Basis. Those who share space with us are our allies, not our vassals, and are treated as such. We’ve used game mechanics to our own, tremendous advantage and made a lot of money, sure. But we’ve also suggested more than once that the pre-nerf economy was out of control and needed changes. Its not our fault that CCP took half a decade to get around to fixing it: we played the game that was given to us in the most efficient manner. It’s not our fault that nobody else was able to achieve the same outcomes for whatever reason. We all had access to the same game mechanics. There was nothing inherently special about Delve that led to the “Delve miracle”– it’s just what happened when a bunch of us put our heads together and cooperated.

        So, we return to the beginning. “Respect.” Really– who cares about it? Do you think Goons built Delve because we were chasing the begrudging approval and respect of other alliances? Fuck no: we did it because we wanted to be able to play the game the way we wanted, and that means being strong and capable, which requires productivity. This is where PAPI are– unfortunately– saddled with parts of the BoB legacy of elite-PvPer thought: since the beginning of time there have been groups within EVE who have argued that combat-prowess is the only measure of an individual, corp, or alliance’s worth. Only people with the greenest killboards, the craziest K:D ratios, and the blingiest ships are worth your time or consideration: everyone else is just a carebear pleb. The practical ramifications of this sort of cultural outlook were made exceedingly clear during the Great War, where BoB were shown to not only be massive jerks who were completely willing to throw their vassals under the bus when push came to shove, but in addition to be mediocre PvPers at best and incapable of handling sustained losses.

        BoB lost that war hard, but the culture of Elite PvP worship endured. It endures to this day. Utterances like, “At the end of the day this is a PVP game: not rorqual simulator,” show that this PvP-centric worldview is still in vogue– particularly among PAPI members, many of whom are the descendants of BoB corps of old. This is a toxic worldview. This is one of the big reasons us Goons like to make fun of you: PAPI are a bunch of extremely-average EVE players crippled by a powerful need to feel that they are above-average PvPers. This seems to be true at every level, from your line-members (with their constant need to self-validate on social media) to your leadership, many of whom ended up in PAPI explicitly because they weren’t afforded the levels of “respect” they felt entitled to while FCing for Goons.

        This is why your various alliances never accomplished much: your people are so preoccupied with being perceived as, “good at PvP,” and, “worthy of respect” (presumably from other Elite PvPers?) that you neglect the fundamentals that build a strong alliance. Alliances cannot be strong without the ability to equip themselves and sustain losses. It doesn’t matter “how good you are at PvP”: every alliance, when pushed into a major conflict, is going to sustain heavy losses. If you can’t keep your guys supplied and in fighting shape, if your group at the individual- or coalition-level has gear-fear and is afraid to make plays, you will not cover yourselves in glory.

        “This is a PvP game, not Rorqual simulator” is a fucking dumb, counter-productive, edgy-teenage-boy attitude to hold. EVE has a lot of PvP (increasingly less, it feels like, as CCP continue removing opportunities for non-consensual PvP, but I digress), but it’s not just a PvP game. Ratting is important. Mining is important. That guy doing his PI and selling stuff on to other guys who use it to make the T2 stuff you need to fit your Muninn? He is important.

        Some players in EVE enjoy PvP. Some enjoy ratting. Some enjoy building things. All of them are important. But PAPI likes to focus on the killing. As far as your elite PvP leadership are concerned, that’s all that really matters (well, that and them getting personally wealthy while being worshipped by an acceptable number of other players). But none of these alliances could compete with Goonswarm / the Imperium on their own, because they’d all systematically neglected the productive activities of their own groups, because they felt those activities to be beneath them. So you all banded together to kick over Goons’ castles. Bravo, well done, you kicked a lot of them down. But now you demand the “respect” you feel entitled to. Here’s the thing though: we don’t respect you. You blued the entire galaxy and showed up with thirty-bazzilion players, pursued the most risk-averse strategies (apparently with good reason, since every time you rely on your “PvP abilities” instead of blobbing, you eat shit), and slowly, VERY SLOWLY, ground your way to where we are now. But is that respectable? No. BoB weren’t particularly good at PvP either, but at least they had the clout to show up in in some heavy, heavy hardware (for the time) and put on a good blitzkrieg show. What does PAPI have to show for themselves? All I see is a bunch of people of very average means, with very average PvP skills, showing up in absolutely massive numbers so that they can hopefully-most-of-the-time avoid humiliation and soothe their elite PvP egos with Keepstar killmails while crying on the internet about how Goonies NEED TO LOSE THIS WAR and then RESPECT THEM FINALLY otherwise EVE is obviously a broken game.

        ProTip: spend less time worrying about who respects you, and spend more time finding ways to play EVE in a way that you enjoy. You’re right: not many people enjoy sitting in bloated HAC fleets for ten hours at a time in heavy tidi, shooting structures. That’s a stupid fukkin way to spend your time, although sometimes it can be worth doing if it helps you achieve a goal that really matters to you. But if you’re enduring all this grinding hoping for the “respect” of Goonswarm? Yikes. Just quit, man. I’m of the opinion that there’s no way PAPI come out of this war having won anybody’s respect, but for sure you won’t have won ours. If its the respect of Goons that you’re after, demonstrating week after week that you’d rather endure endless boredom and misery than risk engaging in fights you might lose is a bad way of going about it. If you’re not doing things in style and not enjoying yourselves, this whole endeavor is not respectable– it’s just a sad waste of hundreds of thousands of man-hours. Just my $0.02.

        June 17, 2021 at 9:50 PM
        • Seir Luciel Ganthrithor

          I think you took the wrong message away from my comment. In terms of earning Goons respect “who fucking cares” is exactly the right response. Why earn respect via video games? There’s RL for that.

          At the moment I think PAPI is far more concerned with decreasing Goons’ space, stars, and wealth/power as much as possible vs. earning their respect. This isn’t about respect; as shown by my thoughts in my article, this is about putting non-goons back in a more competitive position.

          June 17, 2021 at 11:31 PM
          • GuardianDevil Seir Luciel

            You see the problem is your leaders care about it, more precisely they want to be seen better than Goons. But they are a bunch of insecure dreamers (especially piggles and vily) and we can have a discussion about the reasons we are at this point in EVE and the current war, as long as they play the game like Ganthrithor explained the outcome will be the same every time. You might be able to cut us back for a while but in the long run we will always be superior. I can not count how many times Goons stated how can you be better at us or win this war and your leaders are simply doing the same thing since forever and they are surprised and angry it doesn’t work.

            Your personal view is “putting non-goons back in a more competitive position”, which is totally reasonable, but you are mistaken if you think it can be achieved with wars only. Especially if you do a sloppy job at it.

            If you want real change in EVE PAPI must change the way they play the game (again, Ganthrithor’s comment is like a blueprint for you how to do it) after successfully weakening Goons in this war. I find it impossible because in my view your leaders consider that “being like Goons” and that’s the last thing they will do in this game. So if you really want to be more successful than us, elect new leaders with the capability of doing the necessary things to be on par or better than the Imperium.

            June 18, 2021 at 5:25 AM
          • Right, “who cares.” And yet here you are saying straight up that Goons’ lack of respect for your endeavor is part of your coalition’s dissatisfaction with the game. Literally, “We have all shown up and shot structures, we are entitled to having our enemies roll over, concede their space, and kiss our ring.” You guys care about achieving other people’s respect. I think it all circles back to the fundamentally different mindset of the PAPI player, and it cuts to the heart of Goons’ disagreement with “pubbies.”

            Goons do not care about being loved or respected by anyone else in the game. We may find ourselves in that position vis a vis some other groups incidentally– and we aren’t trying to alienate people either– but achieving notoriety or adoration is not a priority for us. Again, we are just a community of people who enjoy playing EVE together, and we don’t take the game or our own individual abilities too seriously.

            Pubbies, on the other hand, tend to take the game (and their own conduct / skill / reputation within it) very seriously. Hence the focus on things like proving your PvP skills, having a good killboard, getting access to the most notorious corps and alliances. They’ can be a bunch of narcissistic types who cooperate out of necessity, rather than people who play together because they enjoy each others’ company. They play because they want to achieve ________ rather than because they want to enjoy the journey. Hell, it’s written right into the name of TEST’s coalition: Legacy. They crave status, and have proven time and time again they’re willing to do anything they feel they need to do in order to attain it.

            As far as PAPI’s stated priorities are concerned, if PAPI had just said, “We want to focus on decreasing our opponent’s space, wealth, and power” from the outset– essetially “We want a challenge and would like to mow the lawn a bit”– nobody would’ve called you idiots about it. It’s this torrent of bullshit about how Goons were killing EVE and the only way the rest of EVE will get the riches they deserve is to eliminate all Goons from EVE online forever that makes you guys look pretty dumb. That shit is patently false: y’all could have been literally exactly as rich and powerful as Goons were during the “Delve miracle” if you’d simply cared a bit less about living out your renter-funded elite PvP fantasies and put a little more emphasis on investing in your space and building out your coalitions with willing allies instead of farming useless renters in order to achieve some kind of end-game no-cost PvP scheme.

            This is also the folly of your endeavour: even if you achieve your revised goal as you put them– you manage to mow the lawn and restore yourselves to a more competitive position– it cannot last as long as PAPI’s various members maintain their toxic, elitist cultures. Goons will just go back to doing what they do best, and the moment your honourable samurai fiefdoms return to business as usual– with the lords and their warriors flitting about the galaxy to casually dunk on a succession of lesser opponents “for the good fights”– the power imbalance will quickly manifest itself again. You say “EVE isn’t a Rorqual simulator,” but the moment you return to delegating the dirty day-to-day business of maintaining an industrial presence to those you consider your inferiors (while charging them extortionate rent and failing to provide adequate infrastructure or protection), your power will wane again.

            This is the lesson groups like NCdot have failed to learn for more than a decade: the group that prioritizes the needs and prosperity of their members– ALL their members– instead of exploiting those around them as indentured laborers while poaching any individuals they perceive as “talent” for their elite PvP ranks, is going to come out on top. Every. Single. Time. This is the true reason that this war has dragged on for a year now despite Goons being outnumbered 3:1: PAPI’s rotten organizations are not robust powers. They require such a numerical advantage just to maintain some kind of force-parity, because their individual members are not and have never been as well-off as the average Imperium member. The group that takes care of its own and guides its entire organization towards collective greatness is stronger than the one that directs wealth and status to a chosen few at the expense of the many.

            June 18, 2021 at 5:46 AM
          • Seir Luciel Ganthrithor

            One of the problems to me with The Goon outlook is the way they continuously see the entire rest of the galaxy as a monolith, homogenous entity. Perhaps that is one of the reasons “pubbie” took off, literally a kind of linguistic notation that there is goon culture, a single homogenous outlook, and there is pubbie culture, another single entity to which every other player follows to the letter. Your comment seems to assume this, even if you don’t actually believe this.

            It sounds to me like some elite bois, maybe BoB, really got under your skin. Someone specific. And now you’ve convinced yourself that everyone else is like them, has the same values, only cares about PVP and earning respect. I guess because such people, such groups are included in PAPI all must be the same. All must adhere to the same values of the group that really got to you, really ticked you off.

            When I said this is a PVP game, I’m echoing Arrendis. He’s a goon. He said this specifically in relation to the economy that Goons were using to launch past everyone else. Arrendis, a Goon in a room of Goons, seemingly all agreeing, was connecting the goon economy and massive production engine specifically with the game being, at large, PVP. This is why he said people should be “allowed to lose” not because Goons were shooting lasers at people, but in connection with Goons getting Jeff Bezos level rich.

            Of course PI and miners are important, producers and all the non-combat aspects of the game. Why? Because without them you don’t have the weaponry to defend the space your non-pvp players work in. The farmers feed the knights, but knights can come and salt your farms. At least out here in nullsec.

            You seem to really hate the PVP mindset (whatever that is; in eve just about everyone does something non-combat in order to pay for ships), which is fine I suppose. Maybe its not your thing. But its many people’s preferred way to play; I don’t see anything wrong with that, though you seem to. The thing that makes it silly is the fact that Goons are in nullsec, and have such a long history of, you know, killing people. Including some of the biggest PVPers (again, whatever those are). I might expect the attitude you are giving from someone in highsec, but the moment Goons entered nullsec they were voluntarily opting in to a competative PVP environment, even in seemingly non-combat spheres of the game. All of a sudden its not just production, but production in relation to your nullsec neighbors. Everything is overshadowed by the threat of PVP harm and harassment once in nullsec. And by joining goons, who opted into that, you also opted into that.

            So first off, I think its innacurate homogenize such a diverse group of people, saying they are all elite bois trying to earn respect. Its like saying all Americans are fat. Some are, yeah, but not everyone.

            Second, your annoyance at my “this isn’t rorqual simulator” comment has some ground, but is ultimately overshadowed by the fact you and your alliance opted into the PVP specific area designed by CCP called nullsec; and as I’ve noted above, plenty of other goons see the PVP nature of all things nullsec as simply being realistic. It isn’t debated among such goons, but presumed as a basis for all further discussion. And they aren’t being “elite” or respect-chasers by doing so. They’re simply accepting what they opted into.

            June 18, 2021 at 3:22 PM
          • GuardianDevil Seir Luciel

            You are right that generalization like that is not correct, but I guess the majority of the PAPI members are leaning in that direction. At least I can not imagine that someone is a member of a group with contradicting values. And most of the time when we talk about PAPI behaviour we talk about your leaders behaviour because they are at the front not line member #23860. And in that regard he is right.

            For the rest, you a hilariously mistaken 😀 Ganthrithor hating the PVP mindset…

            His point is that glorifying PVP players but looking down on PVE players is a mistake by some of your leaders and that mindset is the reason Goons are able to be the strongest. About the mocking – it originates in the posing of your leaders and elite pvp groups. They asked for the greatest ever assembled army in the history of EVE and PAPI members gave it to them. And they fucked up against a much smaller enemy, so much for being the greatest tactician and what not in the game. You are in a worse position than at the beginning of the war, you did hurt yourself more than us and the most painful part of this war for you is still ahead of us. Losing that many titans put you much further from parity and with the industrial changes closing that gap is impossible for you (with the current mindset of your leaders). So that’s how you work for it. Good job, keep it up!

            June 18, 2021 at 7:18 PM
          • Novartis Seir Luciel

            Look, I’m not saying it’s wrong to do a generalization of a group. Hell, Soviet is in much of a bad light, both the country and the ideology because of the generalization and demonizing that being done to their leader. Why goons see PAPI that way? They see PAPI that way because of what their leader said and did. They could do more, they could compete with goons economically, but they opt to do the more egoistical way but hoping to get what they want without paying the price.

            You know why lots of people is pissed of by this article? This whole article just means that PAPI is a whole community of crab mentality guys. It’s not levelling the playing field. It’s destroying the playing field by dragging everyone down, not trying to improve yourself. You hate it when someone which work harder have more assets than you. You hate it when from their hardwork they get rewarded by the security they enjoy(cue to the KS great wall).

            Goons is not too big to fail. It’s the people that is outside of goons that deem goons too big to fail while in the reality it’s the poor leadership that resulting in the myth that goons is too big to fail. Death of an entity isn’t about breaking the said entities. It’s about breaking the bond between their members. So long as you can’t break the bond of goons, they will just raise again, and again, and again.

            June 19, 2021 at 3:35 AM
          • First off, just a few items for the record:

            #1: I do not “hate the PvP mindset.” I’ve been playing this game since 2006 and have dedicated the vast majority of my in-game hours to small-gang PvP. With the exception of the last year– where I’ve actually played quite heavily for a while due to this ongoing war– I’ve largely been drifting away from EVE for the last few years because of the ~*lack*~ of interesting PvP opportunities in the game due to CCP’s insistence on catering to the risk-averse masses with their game design (interdiction nullification, tethers, gates and JBs sharing grids with Upwell structures, proliferation of blackops / JFs, etc have all really dumped on my ganky-boi playstyle– and bomber hotdrop gangs bore the shit out of me). I played for at least a decade mostly with Goonswarm’s blackops group (behind-the-lines ganky bois) and have been spending most of my time this year with Delta Sqad: you have have heard of us. I’ve played a lot less EVE over the past few months due to my work schedule resuming and basically rendering me unavailable during our usual operating hours (welp), so I’ve been filling my late-night-PST gaming hours with Escape from Tarkov lately: another game not exactly renowned for its risk-free, themepark nature. For the record, I do not hate PvP.

            #2: Did BoB get under my skin? Maybe a little? Not really? They were pretty big jerk-offs and we plowed their alliance back into the ground. But there are a couple of good reasons for addressing their history and the elite-PvP mindset: for one, a few of your prominent blue-donut members are literally the direct descendants of that legacy.

            NCdot, for example, are chock-full of ex-BoB corporations, and are easily some of the worst people in your coalition: rich, risk-averse, skill-less gankers who fly exclusively on-meta ships while attempting to reproduce the sweatiest, try-hard tactics– usually poorly.

            Pandemic Legion (or rather, what’s left of it?): another alliance historically known for its incredibly elitist attitudes and history of finding creative ways to bankroll their bling-ship PvP adventures by employing such innovative approaches as: rigging alliance tournaments to ensure an annual supply of priceless AT prize ships; extortion; mercenary contracts; and of course, rental fiefdoms. PL: literally beating money out of anyone they can find while sneering in condescension at groups “stupid enough” to hold their own sov and try to make their own livings.

            TEST Alliance: Literally the Boromir of EVE Online– an alliance whos entire history reads like one great Saga of trying to finally prove to their dad that they’re a real boi. Want me to help the hobbits? Sure, I’ll help the hobbits. What’s that, wring the hobbit’s neck and take the ring of insatiable evil for Gondor? SURE THING DAD: ON THAT SHIT! Test are basically a cargo-cult recreation of an elite PvP alliance: all of the attitude and local shitposting with 0% of the talent. They brought their own Tornados to fight Delta’s Tornados once, and lost even though they had more ships and their fits cost twice as much as ours. Then they did it a few more times, just for good measure I guess. I once saw them reship an entire HAC fleet into interceptors and then burn 20 jumps the long way-round through their own space in order to avoid jumping in to a Ferra sniper Tornado gang a quarter of their size. TEST are lead by a dude who literally FCed for Goons until his removal from some FC group due to inactivity triggered his colossal, wretched ego to the point where he rage-quit the alliance. And yet it seems they talk more shit in local than the rest of PAPI’s members combined.

            Not every PAPI alliance is objectionable IMO: Horde are like whatever. I don’t have the worst impression of Horde (although they’re annoying to small-gang against because they just have sooooo many members flying gun-less Maledictions around all the time that it’s practically impossible not to get tackled immediately and held on-grid for ages until they invariably arrive with 50 dudes to kill your five-man gang). I could take or leave Horde as an enemy; mostly I’m bored of fighting them after doing that in a small-gang context for like literally six years straight (they were kind of the only game in town there for a long while).

            Brave are pretty tragic: they fight (good), they’re pretty bad at EVE (which means we can often win against them even when we’re seriously outnumbered), but for every cute newbee they’ve got in their ranks it seems like they’ve got eight or ten spergy edgelord shitposters. Also they were pretty much broke there for while. It almost felt bad murdering them, but like I said they have a lot of shitposters and they did sign up to attack us so you can’t feel too bad about farming them.

            Anyway, back to one of your core criticisms: treating organizations as monolithic. Obviously I don’t have time to conduct personal interviews with each and every PAPI line member: I’m sure there are plenty of people who aren’t particularly ideologically-driven and just showed up in PAPI corps because someone told them there were exciting things to do and they’d get SRP. For sure there are plenty of people like that in the Imperium as well. But as for the people whose temperatures we can take: your leaders, your prolific social media posters, etc– they seem to pretty much adhere to the pathologies we were discussing. I’m still not sure what to make of you personally: you clearly put a lot of effort into attempting to vindicate some of PAPI’s positions (kind of a fool’s errand IMHO, but can’t blame you for trying– and at least your articles are fun to read). Some might argue that you’ve put more effort into your various treatises than your actual coalition leaders put into planning and executing this war, but we digress.

            You’re right– of course– that we can’t simply assume every PAPI line member believes the same things your leaders talk about incessantly or take them at face-value (lord knows I, for example, look at Mittani’s utterances more as hurf-blurfy semi-erotic fanfic than literal truth), but it also has to be said that the PAPI party-line has a particular bent to it, and elements of those stories are often repeated by others such as yourself, and insofar as your writings are far more thoughtful and articulate than those of your leaders, they make an interesting basis for rebuttals.

            June 19, 2021 at 4:56 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

            “One of the problems to me with The Goon outlook is the way they continuously see the entire rest of the galaxy as a monolith, homogenous entity”

            Well if the boots fits…

            June 20, 2021 at 8:13 PM
        • Gray Doc Ganthrithor

          One of the best replies I’ve ever seen. Well written, historically accurate, and goes to the heart of the matter.

          June 18, 2021 at 2:04 AM
        • ShutUp ShutUp Ganthrithor

          “BoB weren’t particularly good at PvP either, but at least they had the clout to show up in in some heavy, heavy hardware (for the time) and put on a good blitzkrieg show.”

          Well said. I never thought I’d look back and wish for an opponent like BoB again, but here we are…

          June 21, 2021 at 6:03 PM
    • dcrasta Ganthrithor

      I regret I have only 1 upvote to give your comment sir. Well said.. Brrrrr

      June 22, 2021 at 1:35 AM
  • Plebble

    The best thing for the health of the game would probably be if a massive fight broke out and both sides lost most of their super capitals, so that the increase in capital prices do not favour established groups who already own a bunch of the expensive ships.

    A stomp in either direction would set up the winner to dominate nullsec for the next while, as the losing side would be unable to build up a competitive supercapital fleet.

    June 17, 2021 at 7:55 AM
    • Jeet_Kundo Plebble

      This is what would happen of PAPI launched the final assault. They won’t because they know that very fact: if we lose, they lose.

      June 17, 2021 at 5:16 PM
  • Moomin Amatin

    This is a much better effort than the others, well done. A few “minor” problems of course.

    The Imperium lost during the Casino War. We lost our home. Eveything was burnt down around us. We were hounded for years after as well in Delve. Goons know quite a bit about losing. 5 Years ago the Imperium had less than any of the nullsec blocs.

    Generally you argument would work better if it were not for the fact that The Legacy asked The Imperium to attack what is now PanDaFam. The trouble with long wars is that some leaders talk a lot and then the truth comes out over time.

    June 20, 2021 at 12:02 PM
  • Elithiel en Gravonere

    I’m confused. I was in the very meetings where when the leadership of Goons asked us the question, should we pursue panfam across the map after the tribute glassing, we decided, to say, no it would be bad for the game if we crushed all our enemies. We need them as much as they need us. We stopped, turned around and went back home. We kept four regions, did a quick NIP with TEST to keep them off our heels for a year or so and walled up our region with keepstars. Anyone who understands Goon culture, knows that we are a defensive industrial alliance. We are happy to be making our honey (production) and generally don’t go on the offensive, unless attacked. The simple solution, is to leave us alone. Problem solved, you will win and you’ll typically only face gudfight roams from Goons. A coalition that controlled four regions on the map, keeps to themselves, only goes on the full offensive when poked, is not really a threat to the game. I don’t understand why Passpi keeps seeing us as that? So Seir Luciel, what do you say to this?

    June 21, 2021 at 5:34 AM
  • dcrasta

    You lose because you’re not good enough to win. No participation trophy in Eve.

    June 22, 2021 at 1:59 AM
  • Kyeudo

    To sum up this article in one sentence:
    “Goons need to fail now because I think Goons are too old and everyone is supposed to eventually die.”

    June 23, 2021 at 10:15 PM