Star Snooze Episode VI, Who Will Log the Least!

2021-05-13

Recently, three PAPI leaders made statements regarding the next phase in the PAPI war effort. The crux of their comments can be summed up with the phrase “PAPI doesn’t plan to use supers when attacking 1DQ.” Gobbins, the leader of Pandemic Horde (PH) noted that the many PAPI pilots would be “disappointed” at the news. The hope of a massive, record-setting battle, like M2, was effectively taken off the table.

Diehard PAPI members, like INN writer and editor Seir Luciel, insisted that Gobbins left the door open for titans to be used, noting that he got into the game because of the Battle of B-R5RB: “Now [PAPI has] a shot at a Titan battle to end all Titan battles: I’m only human.” The sentiment here clearly shows that yes, some PAPI members are disappointed that a titan-fest is unlikely. And part of the “disappointment” is that the announcement doesn’t meet the expectations we’ve been hearing for month after month. We’ve heard from so many PAPI people, claiming they are “all in” on this fight. But these Reddit and talk-show moments of braggadocio sound hollow when they bump against the actual leadership strategy we heard from Gobbins, Dinkle, and Progodlegend (PGL). 

Let’s analyze the “why” of the strategy, rather than the “what.” We know what PAPI plan to do – hope that Goons stop showing up for pings, so that, eventually, PAPI will be able to take advantage of their massive disparity in numbers, and will be able to, with subcaps, destroy the IHub and then plant a structure and begin the month-long/year-long grind of taking out all the structures in 1DQ. So, why try to take the strongest defensive stronghold EVE Online has ever seen with subcaps? Here are some possible reasons.

It Can Be Done That Way

Reason 1: It can theoretically be done. The Imperium has destroyed four Keepstars in FWST-8, in this very war. Goons have provided the blueprint for attacking a defended Keepstar: send wave after wave of expendable ships, get close enough to the target to create DPS, and then turn around and hope not to get exploded on the round trip. Rinse and repeat until you are exploded (which is virtually inevitable) and then reship, rinse, and repeat. For each Keepstar, Goons spent about 800B-1.5Tril ISK. As long as you can replace the ships, and are willing to accept the cost in ISK lost, this technique works. Of course, on the fifth Keepstar, Goons faced the bubble-wrapped KS, which in turn has skewed the meta. So, killing a KS with subcaps can be done, even when heavily defended, and while costly, it may be less costly than the alternative.

It’s Relatively Inexpensive

Reason 2: The Iron Price. Due to changes with scarcity and more recently with industry, the price of certain ships has skyrocketed. Supers will be very expensive and time-consuming to produce. But supers are also game-changers, and have been since they were first introduced into the game. The alliance that has more supercaps than another, all other things being equal, often has an advantage. Therefore, no alliance wants to be without capital ships. Further, the losses that some alliances suffered during the M2-XFE debacle still have not been replaced by SRP, meaning these alliances are still suffering the effects from M2- and also suffering from the fear that another such loss could take them right out of contention as a game powerhouse. Post M2-, all groups now think twice before being willing to lose capital ships. Hence, the decision to assault 1DQ with subcaps.

It Anticipates the Next War

Reason 3: Some PAPI members are fighting the next war. No alliance wants to win WWB while simultaneously making it certain they will lose the next large conflict. In American football, if in the 4th quarter you have a huge advantage or a huge disadvantage, teams pull their best players. They can’t sacrifice future wins just to assure themselves of a win that is already virtually assured. In the M2- debacle, some alliances lost more titans than others. Fraternity lost none, because they were very conveniently away from the battle. It’s only natural, then, that each alliance must look to their own best interest while still trying to win WWB. Gobbins does not want to risk his titans if he thereby may lose more of them than TEST and WinterCo. This concern is particularly true knowing that TEST has a history of nullifying NIPs, so that even if TEST has signed an agreement to not invade Panfam space post-WWB, the only real deterrent to such potential future aggression lies in the power of one’s fleet.

These reasons aren’t mutually exclusive and all could be in play simultaneously. So, strategically, it makes sense for the Big Three in PAPI to be risk averse. For PH, they have almost nothing to gain from engaging in what could be a slaughterfest in 1DQ. Yes, they want revenge for the 40 GOTG fortizars, but are they really willing to go “all in” to achieve that goal, which is really based on pride rather than strategy? Would they risk losing 40 titans to kill 40 fortizars? Would they risk 400 titans? Similarly, Legacy has alliances that are teetering on the edge. Only a few months ago, we discovered, through the Brave leaks, that Brave leadership showed frustration at the length and expense of the war and they were having trouble coming up with the funds for SRP.

Fraternity, having lost no titans in M2-, would love to see TEST or especially AoM lose titans in 1DQ. They are relatively much stronger now vis-à-vis TEST than they were at the beginning of the war. I don’t see Noraus going “all in.” Winter Coalition has already met most of their war objectives. They’ve expanded, too, and are renting out space and producing ratting income the likes of which has rarely ever been seen. There’s no point messing with what works. Noraus also recently suggested that the PAPI coalition could last longer than most people anticipated. So, Noraus and WinterCo won’t be in any hurry to assault 1DQ when they are doing so well with the status quo right now.

“This is the Way the World Ends . . .”

And those are some of the reasons why PAPI’s war plans for 1DQ don’t include a massive titan brawl. Subsequent to those announcements, we saw WWB enter into an almost somnolent state. The most recent war updates show some of the least activity in the entire history of the war. What the hell is going on? Shouldn’t we be entering an Armageddon phase, or at least a Battle of the Bulge phase? Instead, we are seeing less destruction than if there were no war. People ratting, pre-war, produced more destruction!

PAPI line members can talk a good game about being all in, especially if they have no actual titans to lose. But their dreams are dead. They died in M2-XFE. M2- may actually have been the titan brawl to end all titan brawls – literally. We might have already experienced the costliest battle EVE ever produces. Every other event, for as long as EVE shall last, may be less impressive. And if that comes to pass, if M2- marked the apex of EVE Online, we’ll have PAPI (WWB) and CCP (scarcity and industry changes) to thank for the slide into mediocrity, or “same old same old.” For Goons are poised and ready for a titan brawl like no other, one that would dwarf the first battle of M2-XFE in the way M2- dwarfed B-R5RB.

If we aren’t going to see a titan brawl over 1DQ, to complete the longest and costliest war in EVE Online history, we may see this war end, as T. S. Eliot said, “Not with a bang, but with a whimper.”

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Comments

  • William Doe

    Imagining TEST or Legacy actually trying to play at the big boy table and invading PanFam space on their own in the future without any other big bloc helping them is hilarious. They’d get curb stomped by Horde alone.

    I can really see that if Goons said yes to Vily’s offer to team up and go through PanFam space last year, it’d be the same picture where TEST/Legacy gets carried by the bigger and more competent bloc in the Imperium and the war drags out.

    May 13, 2021 at 8:55 AM
    • Malcanis William Doe

      >They’d get curb stomped by Horde alone.

      They’ve consistently failed to outform INIT. for some time now. And by increasingly larger margins.

      May 15, 2021 at 2:23 PM
  • Guilford Australis

    PAPI amuses me in so many ways. Their leaders contradict themselves (and each other) constantly, while their line members claim The Imperium is North Korea while they themselves remain slobberingly loyal to their own propaganda and even insist their leaders don’t actually mean anything they say. One PAPI writer here at INN is on the record saying he thinks his leaders are wrong about the goals, direction, outcomes, and long-term effects of the war.

    Vily said – loudly and repeatedly, for months – that the victory conditions for the war are “exterminating” Goonswarm and driving us out of the game because we’re bad, and PAPI line members say “oh he didn’t mean that, it’s just war talk.” Gobbins specifically promised his alliance a glorious siege of 1DQ but later says his alliance is actually going to be disappointed about that and that his new plan is to bore Goons to death so they stop logging in, and his idiot line members say “the grand titan battle we were literally just told will not happen could still happen and we think it will!”

    These people are the very propaganda addicts they pretend Goons are.

    May 13, 2021 at 12:10 PM
    • Moomin Amatin Guilford Australis

      I hear that Vily/Redrin is writing a book as we speak.

      May 13, 2021 at 5:08 PM
      • Guilford Australis Moomin Amatin

        I’m old enough to remember when one of the complaints about The Mittani was that he wanted to publish a book about EVE, perhaps even earn a profit from his labor. I guess Vily and his fellow travelers have gotten over that moral objection.

        May 13, 2021 at 7:23 PM
        • Moomin Amatin Guilford Australis

          I am sure one of the PAPI members will be along soon to tell us what a terrible thing that is. 😉

          May 13, 2021 at 7:44 PM
  • Novartis

    This is exactly like race to berlin in WW2, but rather than race, more like slowboating in snailpace.

    Everybody wants the glory of demolishing the goons, but neither have guts to take the risk in fear of the future war. They all have the future thinking of Britain, but combined with the morale of Italians(Note: I’m a WW2 addict, so I would use quite a lot of comparing with WW2 conditions)

    I mean, like, come on guys! You just need to cross Rhine river and then there just straight road to berlin! And you there, you’re months after taking the seelow height, you’re fucking at the gate of berlin and still reluctant to bang the door?

    Well yeah, thank you, but we’re more afraid of our buddy might shoot our back more than our enemy would shoot our head!

    May 13, 2021 at 3:10 PM
  • Seir Luciel

    “PAPI line members can talk a good game about being all in, especially if
    they have no actual titans to lose. But their dreams are dead. They
    died in M2-XFE.”

    Yeesh, that’s a hyperbole and a half if there ever was one. Us PAPI members, I know it seems shocking, have multiple dreams. One was glassing Delve and being able to fly around old Goons space happily. That one came true.

    Don’t take it from me. This was said by Brisk Rubal on a recent TIS: “The guys in chat, sounds like you’re saying ‘not winning fast enough,’ well, I mean, no. This is war; its like a baseball game. You’re losing until you’re not. You’re winning until you’re not. And frankly, it depends on who you talk to. I know different groups in PAPI have different war goals. I think everybody wanted to take Delve and glass it, and I think they’ve been successful in that. If that was how you viewed success, you’ve been successful.” (51:20-50 — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGZRfZ72-ZA)

    Sieges usually end up with a scenario like this one, with the attackers taking their time (i.e. being smart) and the defenders playing the waiting game, baiting game. “Come at us! You’re all cowards! If you really wanted glory . . .” on and on, trying to make the attacker give up their advantage simply to chase taunts. Well, here we are.

    May 13, 2021 at 3:31 PM
    • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

      Brisc was right and also being very honest. This is where the issue is as PAPI started this war as a war of “extermination” to stop goons from playing the game. Now that is hyperbole. As such PAPI does not have a unified goal, one that they are prepared to go all in for. Whereas The Imperium does. If PanDaFam had gone “yeah we have burnt a lot of stuff in Delve, we have caused significant economic harm” and then pulled out back in December they would be more than correct. But now? Harm has still been done but this is a war where the “victory condition” for PAPI seems to be constantly being walked back.

      As for this “siege”. Why am I able to buy things from the 1DQ market at less than Jita prices and also able to move things to Jita from 1DQ and back? I would say that PAPI are more “sieged” in T5Z given the market prices.

      You know what your leaders have said and yes I mean PAPI leadership and not specifically Gobbins, as he is smart enough to know not to run his mouth quite as Vily and Piggles have.

      Ask yourself this. Who does this war benefit the most and what are their plans? This should be easy for you as you have mentioned elsewhere that PAPI will exist for another 2-4 years or so. I will give you a hint or two; PanDaFam, renting.

      May 13, 2021 at 4:53 PM
    • Gray Doc Seir Luciel

      Fine. I’ll accept the multiple dreams. But it was you that expressed disappointment that it looked like PAPI wasn’t going to have a massive titan battle in 1DQ. Now, my opinion is that particular dream is dead. Maybe I’ll be wrong. If so, send some more comments. If I’m right, I’ll be cooking up some crow. You seem to have moved, by the way, in your stages of grief, from denial (earlier posts vehemently noting that Gobbins left open the theoretic possibility of a titan battle) to these latter comments that show clear acceptance. I hope Anger, Bargaining, and Depression weren’t too painful on the along the way.

      May 13, 2021 at 7:57 PM
      • Seir Luciel Gray Doc

        I was disappointed. But I wasn’t crushed; it wasn’t as big a deal as I think you are shaping it to be. I have a hierarchy of desires. At the top is play well, play smart, and win the war, overrunning 1DQ. Absolutely up there is not repeating M2. Lower than these two is wanting to have a huge titan fight.

        Its pretty simple: losing hurts more than winning differently than I would have chosen. And I think other PAPI members feel the same. Furthermore, from a military standpoint PAPI’s plan of assault is sound.

        If I were Goons I would have wanted M2 to happen now, rather than when it did. The morale hit would have been much stronger, and 1DQ would have seemed impenetrable, the “woodchipper” goons claim it is. But since M2 happened before we got to the walls, now that we are here, Goons are facing a conservative, methodical, use-your-head army; that’s not working in Goons favor. It would have been better to be facing a reckless army drunk on its former success here at the last when it really matters.

        May 13, 2021 at 8:52 PM
        • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

          It was always a conservative approach though. This war could have and should have been won in the first three months. Before anyone suggest I am proposing a headshot then no. Also this is just for taking out 1DQ and goons back into NPC Delve. But the initiative was lost by this very slow parade around 1DQ. That is a reality that PAPI leadership never actually dealt with. Their whole plan was to do a few move ops and then for The Imperium to run. This is not conjecture on my part as you can hear PAPI leaders say as much.

          Now can PAPI still win this war? The simple answer is a resounding “yes” when you look at what PAPI leadership say. They have the best FCs and loads of them and all the supers you can imagine and of course the manpower.

          So the question PAPI members need to ask, speaking from a goon perspective of course, is how effective is the approach being used? Mittens already has told you goons are “all in”. We have no other choice. You trapped us in a “siege” in 1DQ and have promised to follow us to where ever we could go to and sit on our faces until we are dead. You like your history, what did the Golden Horde think of that one?

          As a goon there is nothing funnier than watching the very same people who called us pathetic krabbing losers have to run a conservative campaign when they have such an advantage. Every day The Imperium holds out the joke just increases in size. It is like watching a clown train crash into a brickwall in super slow motion. So let PAPI take as long as they want. On that note it is more than prudent for PanDaFam to keep this war going as long as possible. It serves their interests the best.

          May 14, 2021 at 1:44 AM
        • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

          “Goons are facing a conservative, methodical, use-your-head army”

          I call this methodology the “cowards way” AKA the “vily special” because he talked a lot of shot about how much they could afford to replace and then failed to replace everything they lost after the first major titan fight, in other words. “You talked the talk, now walk the damn line”, but you can’t, because your leaders are risk averse cowards who will try to hide from further losses, yet still claiming victory, while avoiding the meat grinder they know the 1dq1 multi-keepstar grid to be.

          “the “woodchipper” goons claim it is.”

          If it’s not the woodchipper we claim it is then what’s the big deal?… why haven’t you attacked it yet?

          ” It would have been better to be facing a reckless army drunk on its former success here at the last when it really matters.”

          You should really take a look at your reddit brigade before you claim you aren’t drunk on your former success.

          May 14, 2021 at 8:24 AM
  • Garreth Vlox

    The issue with comparing a keepstar fight in 1dq1 to the keepstar fights in NPC delve is that it’s just a bad comparison to make, none of those keeps were gunned, none of them had billions of ships in them for one side to supply a never ending number of reships from. papi would be lucky if it only cost them 1.5 trillion to 800 billion PER TIMER, not per keep.

    May 13, 2021 at 4:25 PM
    • Gray Doc Garreth Vlox

      Good points.

      May 13, 2021 at 7:30 PM
    • kwnyupstate . Garreth Vlox

      They can’t afford to SRP those titans so how will they afford attacking keepstars with sub-caps?

      May 14, 2021 at 3:10 AM
      • Garreth Vlox kwnyupstate .

        That’s a FANTASTIC question. Why can villy come up with hundreds of billions to replace subcaps he will sacrifice to ref keeps but he ccouldn’t find that same money to replace his coalition members supers and titans that he promised test could afford to replace?

        May 14, 2021 at 3:17 AM
      • Malcanis kwnyupstate .

        This question suddenly got more topical, with the uptick in papi turbofeeding in 3-D.
        They’ve spent well over a trillion ISK in subcaps completely failing to achieve anything in 3-D. The few times they’ve successfully created a timer, they’ve either failed or not even tried to follow up on it.
        At this point I think we should put aside questions about whether they can afford to take 1DQ in favour of questioning whether they can even afford to get to 1DQ.

        May 15, 2021 at 2:20 PM
    • Carvj94 Garreth Vlox

      Even if PAPI had infinite isk to work with I just don’t see how Goons could lose when defending their stockpile station. There’s really only two ways this can go down unless PAPI brings caps. PAPI loses a ton of DPS to maintain the maintain the damage cap with subcaps and lose trillions in ships to Goons who will literally be decimating PAPI’s fleet every half hour or so thanks to capital superiority which will likely force a retreat. Or PAPI does just enough damage to stop repairs while naively trying to route the defending fleet and they fail spectacularly and are forced to retreat. Goons simply have too many expendable subcaps to lose and enough supers to win easily.

      May 14, 2021 at 6:04 AM
  • Alaric Faelen

    this also goes back to the fact that there simply is no content in Eve for large player alliances other than sov. This is what makes a war of ‘extinction’ really. If there just isn’t anything else to do in Eve for 10000 out of work sov players to enjoy, then numbers will drop not just for that organization but mostly from the game entirely.
    If there is a blue donut with no hope for anyone, even the most powerful single alliance in the game, to every break into or get back into that content- then there is little reason to play the game at all.
    It would be one thing if alliances had some other content to do, but CCP has put all it’s eggs in one basket with sov being the ‘end game’ content for Eve.
    No other content could handle 10k players actively involved in it. Especially if a large group suddenly shifted it’s focus. For example alliances have often farmed FW after losing a war to rebuild a war chest and reorganize the alliance. But that sucks for anyone that does FW already, and it sucks for the couch surfing alliance just waiting to get back into sov. Instead of growing an alliance and getting more players to co-operate opening up options – it’s more of a noose cutting off any alternative to sov grinding and space babysitting once you cross a certain threshold.
    Frankly I’d be all for Imperium totally shifting to some other content for something different and because the sov mechanics haven’t gotten any more fun over time. More complex, yes. But fun? No.

    I’d love for the content in Eve to not be tiered with 99% of the focus on sov and all the rest of Eve is a poor cousin. If PAPI wants to ruin null sec, it’d be great if there was some option to do anything else instead.
    The problem with just letting them ruin null sec is that it by extension ruins the game for us. Our choice isn’t so much to fight over 1DQ or any system- it’s to fight to do sov at all because there is literally nothing else for any sov alliance to do other than sov. If there was something else for a giant alliance to do, I’d leave null sec to PAPI and just go dominate some other aspect of Eve.

    But CCP has created a game that funnels player groups into ever smaller options in inverse proportion to the size of the group. Content that is almost entirely unrelated to everything else in Eve so that Eve is more like a dozen little games rather than one huge, grand universe.

    May 13, 2021 at 5:11 PM
  • kwnyupstate .

    So when goons use titans and supers, which they have said they will, they will win the upcoming battles because PAPI are too poor and scared to do so. Good job PAPI.

    May 13, 2021 at 8:22 PM
    • Garreth Vlox kwnyupstate .

      Yeah I like how they act like they can just do what we did for the NPC delve keeps and have it work out exactly the same way. It’s like they somehow managed to forget the part about those keeps being UNFIT and UNGUNNED, they also seem to keep forgetting all the other fit/gunned forts that will shooting at them the whole time as well…

      May 14, 2021 at 3:16 AM
      • Zaand Garreth Vlox

        And the 5000 skynet supers spread across 20 faction forts.

        May 14, 2021 at 9:49 PM
  • Deni'z von Meanace

    Once PAPI started assault on 1 DQ, Imperium should immediately assault KS @T5Z.

    May 13, 2021 at 8:47 PM
    • Seir Luciel Deni'z von Meanace

      Honestly, why not? Goons keep saying PAPI is taking too long; we’re right next door. There’s nothing stopping yall (except, probably, good sense) going on the offensive.

      Places in Delve were termed “Helms Deep.” Well in the movie Aragorn, army cornered, in a last moment of glory convinces King Theoden to “ride out and meet them.” Ride for glory and for ruin.

      So Goons can say PAPI is making things boring, but Goons never have to play by our rules; they’re just choosing to. They could always ride out and meet us for glory and ruin.

      May 13, 2021 at 9:04 PM
      • Guilford Australis Seir Luciel

        Ah, the old PAPI canard. “We’re the belligerents in this war, attacking an opponent one third our size while controlling 90% of sov nullsec (which is totally not a blue donut). But why, oh why, won’t our massively outnumbered opponent ‘ride out to meet us for glory and ruin’ so that we can finally have an excuse to go home after a year of this horseshit?”

        May 13, 2021 at 10:24 PM
      • Deni'z von Meanace Seir Luciel

        The problem with PAPI is once it’s declared the biggest anti-goon coalition ever, with 3:1 ratio, it takes to long to progress overall and make a final loud victory to samsh the enemies. It’s more than a half year where TEST can’t literally do anything alone, and waiting for the good will and whatever else to attack Imp HQ. While it should be done long time ago having such great advantages in numbers and strong momentum achived after Fountain been fallen.

        May 14, 2021 at 12:01 AM
      • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

        “Honestly, why not? Goons keep saying PAPI is taking too long; we’re right next door. There’s nothing stopping yall (except, probably, good sense) going on the offensive.”

        And that’s how we goons know that taunting you about taking too long is actually bothering you. If it wasn’t you wouldn’t keep asking up to give up our defensive position and come fight your on your keep, you’d come pick the fight your leaders claimed they wanted a year ago.

        May 14, 2021 at 3:13 AM
        • Seir Luciel Garreth Vlox

          No one in the game could possibly be more “bothered” than goons.

          Endlessly bothered with CCP, recent changes and patches, with PAPI groups by the swath, with the war, honestly everything. I’ve never seen such a dedicated group of gamers who hated the game they played so much. Maybe I’m wrong and the EVE bashing is just part of tradition, which is what I’ve half interpreted it as, but rarely do I get the impression that Goons like the game that much from what they write. Only their presence in it tells me otherwise.

          May 14, 2021 at 2:57 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

            You know you may have hit on something here. Goons are bothered. We told New Eden about the dirty casino isk, rental schemes, MER intel, Rorquals, Super proliferation and a shit load more. The response from the rest of New Eden was? Another war where this time PAPI would not fail and would stop goons from playing the game. Now the PAPI leadership rhetoric and hyperbole that was fed to their eager and willing members is meeting reality.

            I am having a blast by the way. This is the funniest war to date and it is going to set up goons great for the future. Just think which is worse:
            “We are not here to ruin the game, we are here to ruin your game”
            or
            “We will stop goons from playing the game”?

            May 14, 2021 at 7:38 PM
          • Seir Luciel Moomin Amatin

            I am having a blast by the way. This is the funniest war to date and it is going to set up goons great for the future.

            Assuming you aren’t just being contrarian, compelled to say the whatever the opposite of what Seir Luciel proposes, you ought to say this more often. Otherwise—without the admission that Goons are actually having at least a little bit of fun, and that 90% of nullsec living next door to one another tends to promote almost instantaneous action and content for everyone—some people might get the idea PAPI was ruining the game or something.

            May 14, 2021 at 8:02 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

            Watching a bunch of people call you shit for years on end have such a tough time “exterminating” us goons is hilarious. The fact that this is not appreciated by PAPI members is interesting as it shows an inability to empathise. I should clarify at least in public. Or another motive perhaps? Anyhoo, kind of moot. PAPI have made big promises and have to deliver.

            So what one was worse by the way? 😉

            May 14, 2021 at 8:26 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

            “compelled to say the whatever the opposite of what Seir Luciel proposes” Why are you referring to yourself in the third person?

            May 15, 2021 at 3:21 AM
          • Malcanis Seir Luciel

            The funny part is that papi are failing to ruin goons’ game.

            May 15, 2021 at 2:22 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

            your response can be summed up as “I know you are but what am I?” Which is about the same level of effort as most papi propangada.

            May 15, 2021 at 3:21 AM
      • Malcanis Seir Luciel

        “We only outnumber you 3:1 we deserve the defender’s advantage while invading too!”

        May 15, 2021 at 2:21 PM
  • Aaron Kitchell

    The blue doughnut should have been against Fraternity and their bot army.

    May 14, 2021 at 1:53 AM
    • Moomin Amatin Aaron Kitchell

      I think you are on to something there. But make it even simpler. War on renting. Something I am sure most reasonable people could get behind.

      May 14, 2021 at 7:01 AM
      • Dude, we ARE fighting the war on renting. We just happen to be the only non-renters.

        May 14, 2021 at 9:53 PM
        • Moomin Amatin Zaand

          You mean we are the “Goon Guys”? 😉

          May 14, 2021 at 10:44 PM
    • Democritus Aaron Kitchell

      Indeed. No group that wants this game to thrive would ally themselves with the likes of Fraternity and XIX, who are both renowned for using EVE purely for their ISK for $$$ real life business. Sadly, it seems like Pandemic Legion has been corrupted by the dollars now too.

      May 14, 2021 at 11:42 AM
  • Jeet_Kundo

    Best part about any of this, is that PAPI will claim they’re in siege “and it’s working.” What siege? The siege practices of old don’t translate as simple-mindedly into the game, as they were limited to the technologies of their time. In times of old, you burned down the surrounding villages (production centers) that brought goods into the stronghold, positioned yourselves outside, and slowly hammered away while making advances. PAPI did that so far. WWI & WWII eras, you disrupted railways and ground-convoy. PAPI has partially done that. In modern times, you disrupt air, rail, and ground-convoys, again PAPI has partially achieved this (our air still gets through via jumps), and, in a internet spaceships context, you have to disrupt jumps – PAPI has failed to do this. Although having limited the number of “safe” jump-paths, it has not limited it in a way that is material to the war. PAPI made their way just outside the keep, but have failed to achieve what makes a successful siege successful: attrition. In order to have attrition, you must blockade: materials cannot be allowed to enter that are at/above replacement requirements to continue the defense, ideally none making it in at all. That has been a resounding failure.

    Supply lines have become fewer but they have not been successfully choked out, they require a bit more tact to get through safely but have not been burdened enough for us to face severe logistical issues in assembling competitive fleets. For example, 3-D was fought 507 v. 733, we lost by 12.06b, and 20 ships, PAPI’s forces primarily consisting of Frat (178), TEST (176), and PH (133), the next most populous belligerent was half of PH vs. our 402 and next most populous being 33 – that’s 3 different warchests vs. our one, and we had zero issues reshipping throughout the fight and had zero issues shipping before the fight; SRP disbursed in a normal time-line. We have stupid amounts of ships on contract at any given time to the point that PAPI leadership strategy has seemed to shift from attrition of resources to attrition of entertainment as we are simply not being effectively choked out.

    Sieges fail when the attackers become strained on refilling their front-lines while effectively blocking the defenders, we’re facing similar facets of WWI – trench-warfare and stalemates after progressing to the most fortified structures between attacker and defender. The difference between WWI and WWB is there will be no capitulation of the defenders, and attackers have made it clear that there will be no peace without absolute destruction of Goons while giving no quarter, PAPI either has to make a move or move on; we’re effectively trading siege-artillery barrages, trench-charges in the form of fleet dances, and premature retreat from attackers that otherwise claim to be going all-in. You had every chance to blitzkrieg instead of march, you’re at Stalingrad’s door, fighting house to house to get there, and now you’re stuck: you’re still fighting in houses and we’re not running out of men or materials. Our railways are still operational, equipment and resources still enter, production still produces, harvesters still harvest. What is PAPI’s only hope if they cannot accept the losses of major tools of war (i.e. capitals)? A Trojan Horse – and we learned from that lesson in the Casino War, too.

    What is PAPI’s response? Come out and perform Custer’s Last Stand. No.

    May 15, 2021 at 9:35 AM
  • Dr.P.A.esq

    Next step TTT? Has a member been whittled down enough (no) to be effectively evicted from the Trade Tower?

    May 16, 2021 at 7:31 AM
    • Moomin Amatin Dr.P.A.esq

      You raise what I consider to be a very interesting question that has so far been ignored in the main. The TTT “what ifs” are a thing. Did PAPI have a plan to just stop paying the agreed share to The Imperium once they had managed to make them disband and stop playing the game? The thing is that at some point the TTT is going to become a bone of contention. There is of course the chance that CCP may even step in to address certain structures and mechanics in hisec. Who knows, this could be years away if PAPI leadership are to be believed.

      May 16, 2021 at 3:31 PM
  • Taxea

    The answer to ‘when will M2 titans be srped?’ – when Delve is rented. Kind of unwilling warbonds so to speak.

    May 16, 2021 at 6:23 PM