My Fellow PAPI Members: Post M2


Art by Major Sniper

By comparison, I have never regarded myself as one of the more bloodthirsty PAPI members in this war. I have mentioned before that PAPI’s talk of extermination was never meant to be taken as literally as Goons have taken it. However, M2 has changed things. Since M2 PAPI has lost much of its momentum. Possibly it has made some PAPI members wonder how long we ought to continue fighting: certainly Goons have been wanting us to question how long we should be fighting. Pre-M2 I think we had the choice to turn back. Post M2, however, I believe is imperative that we fight to the death no matter the cost.

Believe it or not, I don’t say this from some passionate thirst for revenge after M2. Nor do I say this out of a general hatred for Goons. My concern is for the future welfare of my fellow PAPI members and Pandemic Horde specifically. I am not calling for extermination, but for future self-preservation. Hats off to you Goons. Ya’ll spook me. I heard The Mittani’s speech: there will be no terms for surrender, no mercy. Instead of mocking this pronouncement, like many of my PAPI brothers, I believed it. Now, I know what you Goons are thinking. As a Horde member I have been told by The Mittani that I am no longer a target post-WWBII. TEST is the new enemy for Goons, and PanFam will be forgiven for its ‘sins’ committed while aligned with TEST and others. But here’s the truth: I don’t believe it. And other PAPI members shouldn’t either.

A Great Gift

Here’s how it looks to me. During M2, PAPI lost a great number of titans with little to nothing to show for it. That means the Imperium has been given a great gift: all those titans they would have lost in a fair fight, those titans that would have fallen if M2 had ended more evenly, they still have. Those titans mean much more now than they did before the war started, before resource distribution, as the ability to replace/build titans is now a much longer, more laborious process. Resource distribution effectively widens the Imperium titan advantage of M2. Those Goon titans aren’t going to go away after the war. Not at all. And I don’t think they are going to just sit around, after what has been done to Goons if PAPI just turns away now.

It is easy for Goons to say, when things are hard, that they won’t be going after anyone but TEST. But will they still retain that notion when, in a possible future, they are riding a titan advantage on its way to former PAPI members’ space? Will Goons remember that TEST are now the only ones warranting revenge, after the Blue Donut has been divided, after PAPI has relinquished an unprecedented collective strength which is likely never to be reestablished again? Will Goons’ good will remain firm after the largest historical coalition has once again separated into parts? And will each of those individual parts be able to withstand a titan attack, with a 70-count advantage, without the aid of allies? To any PAPI members reading this, you would do well to dwell on these questions and realize what this moment in the war, right now post M2, means for us in the future.

I just finished reading Orson Scott Card’s sci-fi classic Ender’s Game. In the novel, humanity successfully fends off an assault on Earth from an alien species that humans derogatorily call ‘buggers.’ In response, unwilling to risk the genocide of human beings, they commit counter-genocide, killing every bugger in existence and forever preventing the threat of another bugger assault.

The main character, Ender, who is primarily responsible for the genocide of the buggers, later learns that the alien species had no plans of coming back to earth after its first assault (in the first assault they hadn’t recognized human beings were sentient and hadn’t realized what they were doing). The buggers final thoughts were “the humans did not forgive us.”

A Dark and Looming Threat

I do not have faith that Goons will forget this war. If we leave now and disassemble this union in the momentary passion of disappointment brought on by the M2 tragedy, we invite upon ourselves a dark and looming threat. We would invite upon ourselves the vengeance of an enemy whom we deliberately pressed against a wall with nowhere to go: such enemies do not forgive and they do not forget. Do not let their leader’s rhetoric misguide you on this point.

Despite our recent losses, our union, a united null sec, stands upon a precipice: the precipice of fatigue, of disenchantment, and the gravest of all, the precipice of disunion at this heightened moment of EVE history. Our enemies rejoice at the thought of us turning tail, and have had the forthrightness to tell us to our faces that there will be no mercy once we turn! And who can blame them? When we later look out from our respective (now separate) home territories, with Goon titans at the gates, we will all know: They are over here because we were over there.

Whether we joined the war originally for extermination or not, a kind of extermination must now take place. It is not Goons who must be exterminated, but their ability to exterminate us in retaliation for what has transpired! Fields must be salted, homes must be displaced, titans must fall! Delve must fall! Not for glory. After M2 losses the Imperium’s economy that must be dismantled and remain hindered for a considerable amount of time while our economies back home remain intact. Our fighting in the present must not distract us from preparing for the future. How PAPI ends this war will define the terms of the next one. To my fellow PAPI members discouraged after M2, unless you wish to be victims of a swift and understandable vengeance, do not let this harrowing moment become one we will look back to in tears!

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  • Vertigoe

    What I got from this is I didn’t want to exterminate you before M2, but after M2 I have changed my mind because you will invade me like I have invaded you.

    WTF did you expect to happen? You reap what you sow. It doesn’t matter what happens after this, TAPI is next on our menu

    January 27, 2021 at 1:24 PM
    • Moomin Amatin Vertigoe

      The best bit is that we have heard all this shit before – lol.

      January 27, 2021 at 3:15 PM
      • Vertigoe Moomin Amatin

        Same chucklefucks, Fountain War, Casino War and now. You would think they would come up with a different narrative than we are the pox on the game when they have almost all of nullsec but what we occupy and they have convinced themselves we are the problem.

        January 27, 2021 at 6:12 PM
        • Moomin Amatin Vertigoe

          “sunk cost fallacy” anyone?

          January 27, 2021 at 9:02 PM
  • Covewolf

    To be clear, this the 2nd time that Pandemic and friends have jumped on the WWB bandwagon. Both times it was in an attempt to reduce or eliminate a strategic rival from the game. Both times Bees have bounced back.

    Of course Imperium is going to never view Pandemic as anything less than an enemy in almost every situation.

    However, Test – not Pandemic – started warmongering. And Test – not Pandemic – have been the outspoken voices behind the WWB II invasion. Its only fair they get what is coming to them.

    January 27, 2021 at 2:38 PM
    • Moomin Amatin Covewolf

      Trapi were big enough that they should have taken Oasa for themselves. They asked The Imperium to do the job for them. Now this Panfam/PAPI morale post? They probably have not heard about the secret meeting that was taken where The Legacy threw Co2 to the wolves. The main disdain from The Imperium is the continued lies and betrayal from trapi. If Panfam wants to step in front of that then so be it.

      January 27, 2021 at 3:14 PM
  • Moomin Amatin

    “extermination was never meant to be taken as literally as Goons have taken it”, should not have said it then? The Imperium picked up on it as it was a gift. It was an unobtainable goal PAPI had set themselves. One that was and is still backed away from. As for destroying our ability to seek revenge against those who wronged us yet again? It seems some people forget history. The Casino war was supposed to end “the goon threat”. So how did that work out? PAPI made World War Bee about stopping the best content creators in the game from playing. We are already fully committed and have been for over half a year.

    Meanwhile PAPI still have supers trapped in M2 and The Imperium has undone much of the work of the last 3 months of PAPI. The Imperium does not care what you think now. Ages ago I warned that as we fight World Ward Bee that the next war is already being fought. Now you have this post to muster the PAPI troops. Too late, they have seen the writing on the wall. They know what is coming and it would be in their best interests to think about how they best prepare for that in the New Eden CCP has planned. Plenty are leaving the front and firesales are being spammed in PAPI staging.

    If Panfam had settled with their intended goal of serious economic harm as stated prior to Christmas then this would not have happened to them. But due to hubris and believing what your leadership told you you have got a smack in the nose. This is not even 1DQ. This was over a KS that still stands and was thought lost. There are many more just like it.

    PAPI really messed up when they told The Imperium that they were going to destroy them. You surround an enemy and they will fight you to the death. This is what PAPI had hoped for, that we would be starved out. A massively stupid plan if you believe it. I think the real plan was more akin to PAPI hoping for things to repeat as they did in The Casino War.

    So sure hang around. The Imperium was already well prepared for doom and disaster. The way things are at this time are amazingly good considering what has been put against us. You want death and extermination then it awaits in 1DQ. Until you burn that all down all this talk is cheap. Oh I really should stress that The Imperium rebuild was done while the rest of you were “in the lead and sitting pretty”.

    January 27, 2021 at 3:08 PM
  • kwnyupstate .

    PAPI cannot defeat 1DQ because the game doesn’t support that many people in one system. Even if goons just undocked and tethered the server would crash if you had like 10 000 people in one system sending commands.

    January 27, 2021 at 5:29 PM
  • Rammel Kas

    If you play for long enough it will literarily come full circle. Casino WarThe cleansing of TributeWorld War Bee. These conflicts generally follow the annual migration of the trout. As someone else pointed out… NC and us go waaaay back and we’re almost each others’ favorite sparring partners.

    BUT… I think you’ve missed a major series of moves by another player. Through graft and simple misdirection another group is now poised to oust or subjugate most of the north. And all they really need is for you to stay fixed in Delve. Say for another 6 months or so that would suit them very nicely. Nothing bad gonna happen because of that now is it guv?

    January 27, 2021 at 5:32 PM
    • Seir Luciel Rammel Kas

      I hear what you are saying and I think PAPI (generally, though Horde for me specifically) ought to take it seriously. I refer to your insinuation that while Horde and folks are fighting in Delve other groups are plotting with us as the dupes. Some say its TEST befitting, or our leadership, or some other party. This is a very common narrative right now.

      However, it is a truism that various parties benefit from wars unequally. That is the nature of war. If one only fought wars when all things were equal then no wars would be fought.

      But what I can’t help but notice is how much the Impirium would benefit from the fear and suspicion you are encouraging. Don’t get me wrong. I am not trying to contradict you. You are possibly right. But if your advice is for PAPI to turn around and protect our rear from ghostly enemies (or even backstabbing allies), isn’t that suspiciously the thing that would benefit Goons the most at this moment? And, when it is coming from (I assume) an imperium member, shouldn’t that cast doubt on the credibility of that message?

      January 27, 2021 at 6:33 PM
      • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

        The real win for The Imperium is something that all of PAPI seems to be ignoring completely. In fact there are several.

        N+1 is no longer an excuse. That is right, when you are next out numbered you now have no “dirty blobber” excuse.

        Running from N+1 is no longer an option. When a larger group invades now you have to stay put.

        The biggest win though is in brand recognition. The Imperium brand is looking good to all. All the trash from the years about how terrible and horrible goons are at everything has just smashed hard into reality. World record holders, the under dog, doing the impossible. These are all things that The Imperium can not only claim but CCP will back up.

        But there is more, PAPI leadership look less than competent and/or honest. Goal posts moving all over the place. PAPI leaders contradicting each other all the time. The best bit about this is that The Imperium has won the propaganda war by simply repeating what the PAPI leadership have said in the past.

        January 27, 2021 at 8:31 PM
        • Nate Hunter Moomin Amatin

          CVA would like to say, hey we fought for a long time while outnumbered.

          January 28, 2021 at 11:15 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Nate Hunter

            CVA was farmed and only allowed to exist at the whim of others.

            January 29, 2021 at 7:18 AM
      • Rammel Kas Seir Luciel

        People are allowed their opinions. Nothing more nothing less. I just read a wider set of tea leaves to come up with that. And no I was not referring to TEST specifically. But I did notice Vily (or I think it was him) created an alt-corporation who are now deeply ensconced in drone lands. But I digress.

        I do not believe me speaking my mind over here is going to magically influence Gobbins’ decision making. That’s not how that works of course. I am merely pointing out something I came across and found interesting, and which may dominate the meta over the coming 6 months and maybe the year.

        Didn’t of course name who it is. And the main intent is not to make you look over the shoulder. But it may be interesting to me if you can figure it out from your end.

        January 28, 2021 at 2:29 PM
  • mbox

    I can appreciate the author’s mindset. The best chance of beating Goons will be through PApi. Even if “extermination” is not our agenda, bringing a, slap on the wrist, type war to the divided PApi alliances will be quick and easy for Goons. It would also not be far fetched after we glass TEST that we do visit FRT, PH and NC. to remind them we are better. It is a game of war and the reason I Krab for pvp ships.

    That said, beating Goons without beating 1dq is a pipe dream. M2 should show PApi the blood price for being in delve that we are willing to pay. The question I would ask if I was a titan pilot for PApi, do I trust my leadership’s decisions and wallet with my ship? The answer to both should have been made clear after M2; probably not unless you are likely willing to lose that titan and only for a rigged hull at best to replace it. In other words, you have high risk but your leadership gets the rewards.

    January 27, 2021 at 5:35 PM
  • ShutUp ShutUp

    tbh if you’re drawing analogies to children’s books then you’ve already lost (Ender’s Game is doggerel, fight me)

    January 27, 2021 at 6:03 PM
    • Seir Luciel ShutUp ShutUp

      The book may typically be read by those younger but most young people, in my opinion, aren’t going to be able to appreciate or really grasp how self-conflicted and complex the themes of the text are. Don’t confuse simple language with simplicity. I’d fight you over Ender’s Game any day.

      January 27, 2021 at 6:19 PM
      • ShutUp ShutUp Seir Luciel

        It isn’t really complex at all though, it’s bog-standard power fantasy, with very little “science” in the science fiction. I thought Card was a great author too, until I read real giants like Greg Egan and Ted Chiang. I tossed a signed copy of Ender’s Game in the recycling last month during a deep cleaning. Level up your reading!

        January 27, 2021 at 7:03 PM
        • Carvj94 ShutUp ShutUp

          Yea power fantasy is pretty much the best way to describe Ender’s Game. Not that it’s bad or anything cause it’s definitely a good read if you can get over the hand waving of how any of their tech works.

          January 28, 2021 at 12:43 AM
    • Froggy Storm ShutUp ShutUp

      I personally find it amusing that they first, cast themselves as the mindless aggressive monsters from the first book while completely overlooking the remainder of the series where the humans (goons) do in fact forstall several genocides. Thus undermining the entire argument.

      January 27, 2021 at 6:25 PM
  • chimpy

    and yet you guys started the war………

    January 27, 2021 at 7:18 PM
    • Nate Hunter chimpy

      PAPI started the war, Imperium’s been that dude on the other side of the street yelling come at me bro for years.

      January 28, 2021 at 10:57 PM
      • Garreth Vlox Nate Hunter

        lol Imperium is the dude on the other side of the street, who literally bailed tapi of out its last fight for its life war when PL/NC/PH/winter decided to fuck test out of its space, then went back to being neutrals with a NIP. Don’t blame the imperium for vily’s obsession with picking fights he can’t win on his own, and panfam is just along for the ride tapi invited them too…..

        February 6, 2021 at 7:59 AM
  • DrkyDrky

    As a Goon Loyalist, I shall also fight to the end as well to defend our home!

    Also btw, the longer this drags on, the more advantageous it will be for us.

    January 27, 2021 at 7:57 PM
  • Deni'z von Meanace

    I like how you spin that “buggers” vs. humans. And now peaceful buggers talks that humans are heartless villains who would come after the buggers because they did what they did. Or you saying that buggers in Eve should not repeat the mistake they did in book and exterminate humans without allowing them to recover and bring the revenge on their homes doorsteps. Amazing how uou put that – we didn’t want to kill bees at the beginning of that compain but looks like we found an wasp nest instead of Hive and have to own them now or they will own us instead.

    January 27, 2021 at 7:59 PM
    • Moomin Amatin Deni'z von Meanace

      A very good point. The articles author would have had a better position if it were not for “the rest of Eve” dehumanizing Goons for years. “goons only krab”, “goons only blob”, “goons are evil”. If PAPI think that this is not the case then please explain the silence from PAPI leadership all the time PAPI line members are calling goons mad racist homophobic nazis in their staging systems. Meanwhile Vily and Dunk are projecting themselves as victims of unjust goon aggression.

      January 27, 2021 at 8:20 PM
  • Alaric Faelen

    Right now all that TEST is praying for is that they can damage our economy and super fleet badly enough that we can’t pursue them after this war collapses and everyone just goes home.

    For NC/PL and Brave, they can go home any time and simply blame TEST for having botched the war. Their pilots would be happy to go home and do anything other than endless timer fleets again. In fact, it suits their purposes to let TEST burn because that will take GSF time and resources while they rebuild and reinforce their space based on the Delve model. By the time we finished with TEST, we’d probably not be in a position to further press an attack.

    TEST is desperate to keep their coalition together as long as possible. Every Goon titan they can kill now with 3 to 1 odds is one that won’t be smashing them into dust later when the smarter alliances cut their losses and go home. There is no win for them any longer. Even if they magically removed us from Delve- it would only be because we chose to preserve our super fleet to use to attack TEST the moment they don’t have the papi skirt to hide behind anymore. The moment those superfleets return home, TEST is done for.

    January 27, 2021 at 8:47 PM
    • Carvj94 Alaric Faelen

      TEST alliance, please don’t kill.

      January 28, 2021 at 12:50 AM
  • Garreth Vlox

    “I have mentioned before that PAPI’s talk of extermination was never meant to be taken as literally as Goons have taken it.”

    Then it should have not been said to the reporters writing articles about the war…

    This whole piece reeks of “Shit guys we might lose this after all, sure hope these goons don’t actually follow through on their threat to make destroying us their in-game life’s goal for the next decade”

    January 28, 2021 at 6:31 AM
    • Jangles Garreth Vlox

      100%, what a stupid statement, they said extermination was the goal how else were Goons supposed to have taken it? meh.

      January 30, 2021 at 6:53 PM
  • IDK Imperium has a pretty good track record of abiding by its diplomatic arrangements. Yes, we might fight again in the future, but I’m sure if you wanted to retreat you could get a NIP for whatever period of time you required to recover from your supercap losses. I feel like both Panfam and Brave would be allowed to exit gracefully if that’s what you actually wanted. We let PL/NC lick their wounds after B-R…

    TEST, on the other hand. Yeah, they’ve got another thing coming.

    January 28, 2021 at 7:03 AM
  • The bigger concern should be what happens all over EVE after it’s been effectively empty for so long. Loose neighbors who you’ve had conflict with, wherever your homes are. Horde space is very secluded, and one lesson everyone should see after / from this conflict is how untenable it is to extend your stuff. Maybe goons have more freedom to voice their disagreement, I don’t know. But. I don’t feel a need to go chasing you / Horde to your home. So I wouldn’t go along with any suggestion to. It’s enough to have proven everyone wrong, and that it won’t be a dogpile / walk in the park to attack into Delve.

    It’s turned out to be the bad idea I thought it would so why would we make the same mistake.

    January 28, 2021 at 10:35 AM
  • Oh hey. Also. Do you get threatened with a kick if you’re not active enough in Delve? How much room do you have to choose your own gameplay?

    January 28, 2021 at 10:47 AM