Deconstructing Seir: Truth and “Truthiness”

2021-06-21

Header art by Major Sniper

Author’s Note:  This piece is written by Malcanis as a direct response to Seir Luciel’s disingenuous and dishonest piece of longform agit-prop, published 16th June 2021 “What’s Papi’s Caus Belli?: Too Big To Fail vs Allowed To Lose

As a piece of work, it is a very well written, tighly phrased, with cleanly focused construction of elision, cherrypicked examples, unspoken assumptions and other fallacies.  Luciel should be proud of his work, because at first reading it feels convincing and substantiated.  I trust that he has been rewarded, or at least appreciated, by those whom he has served so well and so articulately.

In his introduction, he lays out some goals: to discuss how WWB II, or whatever we’re calling it this week, ends; and to change the way people view personal agency to alter the landscape of EVE, and  most importantly whether a group can be “too big to fail.”

Quite the risk, one feels, to raise that last topic, but unlike his coalition’s Fleet Commanders, Luciel is quite willing to take a risk for a big win.  I’m going to take a risk here too, in presuming on your attention.  It is unfortunately much quicker to tell a lie than it is to refute it, so this will necessarily be a long piece and, I regret to say, I will still have to skip over a few of Luciel’s little gems.

Game Mechanics

After his intro, Luciel then moves on to a discussion of game mechanics.  Not all of the mechanics involved, naturally, but the ones he would prefer us to consider in the section titled “The Technical Front.”  Of course we move right on to Papi’s second favourite Dolchstoßlegende, the second battle of M-2XFE.

The first battle –  over the armour timer – was by all accounts an essentially even outcome in terms of ships lost.  And indeed, Papi actually won the objective, by committing their supercapital fleet (more on this later, oh so very much more), and the M2-XFE Keepstar was reinforced into its final timer.  The Imperium’s supercap fleet was not able to prevent the massed capital forces of Papi from putting a contested online Keepstar into reinforce.

What both sides were able to do was inflict virtually identical casualties – plus a Rag here, less an Erebus there – which is actually of not much of an achievement for the Imperium when you have tether and Keepstar weapons on your side.  It’s also a Phyrric victory, when you’re the outnumbered, defending side.  The defender must inflict disproportionate casualties in order to keep defending.  (Please note that I cast no aspersions of the skill of the Imperium FCs that night.  I’m talking about outcomes, not expectations).

So M2 round 1: the attackers trade evenly while successfully assaulting a Keepstar against a fully formed Imperium.  That outcome actually sounds pretty good.  Speaking as an Imperium member, I recall our FCs going in to the battle of X47 speaking of such an outcome as being at the upper end of their expectations.  The attacker must usually expect to take higher casualties than the defender, after all.

 Then came round 2.  This is where Seir Luciel would have us believe that CCP failed their customers and forced an undeserved defeat on his noble comrade crusaders by their server node falling over.

Record Scratch

Let’s back up, because his account misses a couple of very important facts, which is Seir Luciel’s signature style.  He wields those missing facts with all the deceptive deftness and dexterity of one of those incredibly old dual-wielding guys in those Wuxia movies.

Papi logged off in front of the Keepstar.  Their titans were damaged and low on cap, ammo, and strontium clathrate; their supercarriers and carriers fighter squadons were depleted, and a large fraction of them were bubbled.  Those that weren’t extracted back to their staging, but they left approximately 300 of their titans, plus a large number of supercarriers and capitals in an incredibly vulnerable position, bubbled in a known spot, under a hostile Keepstar.

When PAPI came back later in the day, a few hours after downtime, they returned via an incredibly poorly positioned cyno, to a point where there was no hope of tethering.  They landed among a pre-positioned cloud of heavy fighters – that fighter cloud, by the way, was putting out enough DPS to kill a well-fit Avatar in the same time it takes a Fleet Auxilliary to lock and land two repair cycles.

Although Seir Luciel would have us believe that the forces of the decadent imperialistic node conspiracy stabbed PAPI in the back and robbed them of a deserved victory, the simple facts are that the Fleet commanders made two gigantic tactical errors. 

Far from betraying PAPI into defeat, the lag in the second battle of M-2XFE saved hundreds of PAPI titans from dying in a haze of Goon bubbles and probably ending the war right there in catastrophic defeat.  Had there been no lag, it is questionable that even as many as half of their supercapital fleet would have been able to extract.  Furthermore, no other than Vily himself admitted that the order was given to jump in the subcapital fleets in the hope that this would crash the node, or at least increase lag sufficiently to limit losses.

To summarise the two salient facts that Seir Luciel wishes to elide:

1) EVE’s server nodes – when in reinforced mode – were quite adequate to allow PAPI and the Imperium to conduct the first battle of M-2, and to trade evenly despite Imperium’s defensive advantage.

2) Papi are not interested in fighting “relatively even” battles.  Before and after M-2 they had literally dozens of opportunities to tempt the Imperium to engage on this basis, and as an explict matter of policy, declined to do so every time.

3) When EVE’s server node did fail, this was at least partly due to the deliberate action of Papi command, in order to save their supercapital fleet from a huge blunder.

Half a league, half a league,
⁠Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
⁠Rode the six hundred.
“Charge,” was the captain’s cry;
Their’s not to reason why,
Their’s not to make reply,
Their’s but to do and die,
Into the valley of Death
⁠Rode the six hundred

As an aside, it’s a rarely understood fact that the Light Brigade did actually achieve their objective.  They made it to the Russian guns and killed most of the gunners.  Yet we do not speak of it as a victory.

Lag as Imperium’s “Saving Grace”

In the next section of Luciel’s jewel, he talks about the lag monster as being the Imperium’s “saving grace” and a “challenge for PAPI.” This seems like the blackest ingratitude towards a demon that has saved your supercapital fleet, but let’s move past that for now.

He then sensibly tries to pre-empt any such analysis as this one by dismissing it as “re-hashing old news” and goes on to raise the spectre of the terrible risk that EVE faces from “no defeat conflicts” due to an “inability to support the scale nullsec war has grown to.”   Let’s be clear here:  the “injustice” that Luciel is concerned about centers around the Imperium trying to avoid defeat by a coalition that is three time larger than the previous record.  It is unjust, do you not see, that the Imperium not be defeated.  CCP must enable it to happen.  Vox populi, vox dei. 

Three Red Herrings

Then we move on to the sections entitled “The Engagement Aspect,” “The Right To Lose,” and “Is The Imperium’s Right To Lose In Danger?”

These three sections all revolve around the same essential thesis:  The Imperium played the game too much and too well, made too much money, got too strong and that is a Bad Thing.  He talks eloquently about how very dreadful it would be if EVE were to fail by “not allowing” Goons to lose.  He raises the dreadful prospect of a game that continues to have Goons in it as a power after the war.  He’s clearly mortified by that prospect, but he treats it as a settled matter that it is a terrible outcome.  There is “something kind of awful” – well played there Luciel – about the prospect.  But he doesn’t say exactly what is so bad about it; it’s just assumed that the reader agrees – a most effective rhetorical device for persuading the reader to agree. 

He talks about the Goons getting rich, but ignores that other groups have also gotten very rich.  He subtly implies that unfair advantages have been gained, but there’s no mention of how or why these advantages devolved disproportionately to Goons, and he ignores the fact that Goons “got too rich” by logging in and doing an incredible amount of in-game activity.

The unspoken principle (one can’t call it a fact, as such, because it’s a belief) being put forward here is that it ought to be considerably easier than it is for a large group to permenantly and irrecoverably defeat a smaller group.

Now that that principle has been spoken, let’s talk about it for a moment.  Seir Luciel simultaneously complains that the Imperium – Goons – had been “allowed” to grow too large and powerful, while also complaining that it’s too hard for large and powerful groups to extirpate smaller ones.  Thought provoking, isn’t it?  And an insight into the minds of the people he represents, and of course this section is another beautiful example of his deadly Missing Facts.

He then, in a moment of presumably inadvertent honesty, touches on something a little deeper.  He mentions that the Goons used to boast about how much ISK they were making in Delve and asserts that this was done as a deterrence bluff.  Again, this snippet is more revealing about his mindset than revealing about Goons, because any Goon you ask would be pretty clear about what the MER hurf-blurf on r/EVE was about – and avoiding fights was absolutely not the point.  Then he leads into how glad he is that all those symbols of conspicuous consumptions were burned down so easily in the actual attempt; another example of a thing claimed to be impossible that is actually doable for those who try.

The important thing to note here is that no actual figures are mentioned – this is a purely emotional argument devoid of evidence.  The real problem is that Goons acted rich.  They went around telling everyone how rich they were.  This was the problem; the perception of Goon wealth which – in his mind – was a deterrent.  There is no analysis here of how much ISK is too much or why it’s a problem. 

Even more tellingly, there’s not the slightest consideration of any other group’s wealth, assets, or income.  Once again there is an unspoken assumption here, and it’s treated as alarming that Goons have matched the projective power of PanFam.  We’re supposed to be worried that NC + PH + PL aren’t the “Too Big To Fail” group now, as if that were the true and right order of things, and anything different is disturbing.

We should also consider further back in EVE history when, compared to the economic mayfly economic boom for 2017-2019, NC and PL (and Nulli Secunda, but who ever cared about them?) ruled not four regions but 20, and extracted the cream of the game’s wealth for almost half a decade.

And not only did they have the money but they had the power; essentially all of EVE’s active supercaps were concentrated in a single coalition (I’m not including titans used for bridging that never ever under any circumstances ventured out of a POS field).  Although their income later dropped, we should presume that they still retain an exceedingly great deal of money and assets – certainly Kenneth Feld in his Meta Show appearance did not give the impression of a player who was worried that he or his alliance would ever be unable to find an Aeon or two down the back of the couch should they need one).  As Seir Luciel does not pull a single example from, or devote a single word in his article about, this long period in the game, we might infer that he doesn’t feel that EVE suffered much if at all from unassailable wealth and far more unassailable power when that wealth and that power was largely held by what is now PanFam.  Or even before that when it was held by the original Northern Coalition.  Or Band of Brothers.  So many historical examples of exceedingly rich groups, most of which were rather more overbearingly powerful than the Imperium were in June 2020, and not a single word noting how bad any of them were, even if only to show that the Imperium is somehow worse.  The inescapable conclusion is that it’s fine for groups to be exceedingly rich and overbearingly powerful as long as those groups are not Goons.

To summarise the important points that Luciel tries to blur over here:

1)  Asserting that “Goons are too rich” without any analysis of what “too rich is” (again this is something the reader is expected to simply agree with) and a singlularity-level blind-spot about thinking about how much wealth other groups have (as opposed to income).

2)  Other non-Goon groups have previously been relatively richer and relatively far more powerful than other groups in game than the Imperium was in June 2020, and by that date, Vale had been consistently outproducing Delve for months, and while no individual PanFam region exceeded Delve, in total PanFam’s output was at least as high as the Imperium’s for some time before that – but he is OK with all of that because they weren’t Goons.

3)  He – like his coalition, despite their strenuous pearl-clutching denials, are absolutely thinking in terms of permanently exterminating Goons as a group with an identity.  It was, is, and will be their true victory condition, and whatever settlement comes out of this, they will not truly count it as a victory unless they achieve it. And they will think CCP has failed them by failing to facilitate it.

The Results Section – Seir Doubles Down

Luciel doubles down (well, quadruples if we’re going by section titles) on his thesis that Goons had more money and power than they should have been allowed.  We see the Keepstar resentment surface again.

He sermonises about “the right to lose” as if losing is something that is foreign to the Imperium culture and that we just really need to experience it at least once, for our own moral good, gosh darn it.  This is a prime example of what Stephen Colbert calls “truthiness” – something that sounds good because it appeals to what everyone wants to believe, as long as you don’t actually think about it very much. 

Of course, even a few moments of reflection remind us that, like all truthiness, it’s absolute balderdash.  Goons, still less INIT., don’t have anything to learn about losing.  We’ve been through crushing defeats multiple times, thanks to previous groups who had all that overwhelming power and wealth that were just fine for the game, so Luciel’s touching concern for our “healthy gaming motivation” is not required.  Most recently, in fact, in 2016, AKA the last war but one, INIT went through a well established cycle of pissing people off until lots of them jumped on us.  Goons go through a regular cycle of making a space-empire, then getting complacent, and lots of people jump on them.  To read Luciel’s rhetoric, you’d think that no one in the Imperium has ever had their character built by being forced to evac their shit out in a friend’s carrier, in the snow, uphill both ways. This perception is just historically completely inaccurate.

To summarise the important point that he simply lies about here: Goons have been defeated (in the ordinary in-game way) plenty of times in the past and indeed their culture has been deeply shaped by these experiences.  They are not an unstoppable infallible Borg menace that there can never be an answer to.

“Talk Shit, Get Hit”

Ah but what’s this.  When he talks about “losing” he doesn’t just mean “losing a war.”  He means losing your alliance altogether.  What he really means is that it would be good for our moral character if Goons were to be beaten so badly that they had to disband and had to do some kind of BoB-to-Kenzoku-to-Ncdot multi-fail-cascade Trail of Tears before earning the right to claim to have been truly beaten.

Then, there’s some nonsense about “Goons say it would be bad for the game for them to experience real loss.”  This is a willful misunderstanding – I know because I’ve seen people explain it to him several times – of what is being said.  Luciel is trying to pretend that he doesn’t know that a group like Goons (and indeed INIT) is not primarily an in-game entity. 

The in-game EVE alliance of Goons is, at most, the branches and leaves of a very deep-rooted tree.  You can’t make a group like that “lose” in the way that he demands – for our soul’s sake – no matter how many titans you have, because the roots and trunk and sapwood don’t have any surface that’s exposed to the power of a coalition like PAPI.  It’s not in CCP’s gift to make it happen in game, no matter what, and all he and his blue doughnut boys can do is wither a few twigs.  PAPI needs to destroy not their titans but their forums.  Not their Keepstars but their comms.  Not their sov but their history.  Not their iHubs but the engagement of thousands of real people participating in the game of EVE Online.  That they have so far failed, and most now accept that they won’t succeed, doesn’t change the fact that PAPI wanted to undo those very things and still want to achieve this goal with all their hearts.

That is what Goons mean when they talk about EVE “needing Goons”: the only way you can destroy Goons is to destroy en masse goons’ willingness to play EVE at all, and that would be a tragedy for the game.  Unlike Seir Luciel, I will give an explicit reason for the assertion:  EVE cannot afford to alienate a piece of the player base as large and as active as the Imperium. Neither Goons nor INIT are (to borrow The Mittani’s excellent analogy) “pickup” groups like most of the PAPI alliances.  We’re in our alliances because these are the people we want to play with, not for the space or the ISK or the killboard padding.  A “true” defeat of the Imperium in the form that Luceil wants  (a complete failure cascade) means that a large fraction of them would simply leave the game for good.

Which, as per above sections, is what he’s indirectly confirmed he rather wants to happen, or at least he’d rather see us leave than remain in a large, independent, powerful group that’s relevant in sov nullsec instead of humbly applying to join their renter program, and he blithely handwaves away the mere idea that it might be bad for the game.  It seems that some players are a great deal less equal than others in the Lucielverse.

To summarise the truth that he doesn’t want us to think about: the existence of the Goon culture and player base is the real target – and cause of this war.  INIT being the secondary target here but they would still very much like to see us dissolve too.

Reality Hurts

Now we get another sermon on the Great Cycle of the rise and fall of EVE.  Again, not something that the Imperium needs to be taught about by anyone, thanks.  Because we lived it and to a great extent, made it happen.  The important reveal comes in the last paragraph.  The ill-advised (and frankly patronising) excursion into factuality is abandoned in his impatience to get to what he really wants to do:  make a direct and blunt appeal to emotion.  It doesn’t matter exactly how rich the average Goon was, or whether the Imperium actually had a supercapital fleet to match PanFams.  What matters is – as foreshadowed in the previous section – that they hurt people’s feelings.

The missing fact here is is essentially a restatement of a previous argument: that it’s somehow a moral imperative for Goons to taste crushing humiliating defeat, even though they’ve been through the cycle of eviction and complete territory loss at least three previous times.

What is Papi Fighting For

Luciel sensibly notes that PAPI is far too large and diverse a group for this question to have anything remotely resembling a single answer, but then immediately gives the answer.  He summarises most of what I’ve written in the last sections in a single sentence:  because “I don’t like you.”  Here’s another example of inadvertent honesty.  No, indeed: he doesn’t like the Imperium.  He wants it defeated, humbled, humiliated, gone, dead destroyed, erased, and he doesn’t want any further defeats along the way.

I can’t exactly call this a missing fact as such, because it’s right there in plain view.  This is more of a Purloined Letter.

The Reality Of The Enemy

Luciel notes some of the famous and/or notorious things that Goons have done and, in a telling phrase, frames the context as “when I entered the game, Goons were already established as legends.” To return briefly to something he complained about above, the idea that EVE would be less of a game without Goons – why does he not want legends in his game? 

Then he gives the “true Causus Belli” – Mittani’s taunt.  So, again, not actual facts (we’ve seen that), not actual deeds (we’ve seen that too) but because Goons dared to claim to be strong and safe in their home.  “Alarm bells should be ringing,” he says of a group that had been established in their current region for just over three years while he is in a coalition that has squatted like a toad under a notoriously uninvadable rock for almost eight years.

Goons deserve to be attacked by the entire galaxy for something they said.  PanFam has been safely ensconsed in their current home since 2013, but that’s fine because they didn’t say that they’re very well fortified in there.  Everyone knows it, no one denies it, but because they haven’t “taunted” the rest of the game to come and get them, their unassailability is of no concern to anyone and doesn’t harm the game at all.  Apparently they don’t have nearly the same right to lose as Goons and INIT.

The missing fact here is, again, essentially a restatement, this time of Missing Fact no 4; that the tallness of the tree that he’s in easily matches (and in PAPI significantly exceeds) the tallness of the tree that he claims ought to be cut down.

Seir’s Conclusion

This is the shortest section, but one of the most revealing.  He essentially admits that Goons, and the Imperium in general, outplayed and out-planned the other major nullsec groups “years back”  (again I assume he refers to the period 2017-2019 when Delve was the most productive region).  No mention of the subsequent era when Fraternity’s “activity and planning” outpaced everyone else’s, but as we’ve seen demonstrated over and again, he does not apply his standards remotely evenly.

Then he asks the key question “So what?  Are we supposed to lie down and die?”

What indeed?  In his view, which I feel comfortable in saying is strongly representative of PanFam’s culture, there are only two states possible:  Ruler or Ruled.  If you’re not dominating another group, ipso facto, they’re dominating you.  In this world-view, independence is quite literally a threat:  by the mere fact of refusing to be dominated, you assert domination.

He illustrates this perfectly when he then asks “Are we supposed to accept that the future, our future, will always be dominated by Goons?”

As we have seen so many times already, he just assumes that the basic axiom behind this – Goons are too strong to be ruled, ergo they are our rulers – will be intuitively understood and accepted as obvious common sense by the reader.  But while this is absolutely true of his coalition – we’ve seen that PAPI is extremely hostile to any non-aligned groups who don’t “bend the knee,” and is eagerly gobbling up the once free regions as fast as they can – history shows that it’s not true of the Imperium.  Goons are notoriously content to sit in their space and generally mind their own business until someone pokes the Hive, and INIT are sufficiently bad at indifferent to holding on to space that we just don’t matter in this regard. Although there are other examples, we need only cite the previous war of 2018 for the best example:  after absolutely winning that war, the Imperium did not try and make any other groups “bend the knee,”  did not turn all the conquered regions into yet more dreary renterspace, did not, in fact insist that anyone “accept that the future, our future, will always be dominated by Goons.”

 Indeed, the Imperium entered that war specifically to save Legacy from “accepting that the future, our future, will always be dominated by Panfam.”

Goons – and INIT – have in common that we understand that it’s best to leave an enemy alive where you can see him and where he can be an enemy, because a game with no challenge or threat is a dull game indeed.  Further, while both alliances approach the idea of loss in battle differently, we end up in a similar place:  what you lose matters nothing; what you win matters everything.

In contrast, it is nakedly obvious that the culture of PanFam is shaped by their memory of the glory years of the previous decade when they could do whatever they liked, to whoever they liked, and never face any prospect of actual loss (dictor lives don’t matter and you know it) or be challenged.  An outcome in the game where they do suffer serious losses – even if they win the battle – is unacceptable.  They are entitled to choose to fight only where they can incontestably win.  They genuinely believe that this is “good for the game” because their worldview is shown time and again by Luciel – they are “the game.”

The long and short of this war is that the true root cause of it is PanFam’s driving fear that Goons and the Imperium are just like them and have the same goals as them and the same need to relate to others either as masters or slave, which is their view of the game.  The outrage and the shouting and the unfairness of game mechanics and the reason we’re still holding in the last free constellation and the reason for all this hypocritical nonsense about not really being a blue donut is that we’re not and we don’t.

We will never serve you.  You will never rule us. 

Let your voice be heard! Submit your own article to Imperium News here!

Would you like to join the Imperium News staff? Find out how!

Comments

  • Guilford Australis

    Great article. We can also point out a few other things:

    (1). PAPI earned every inch of their defeat in M2- because their leaders and FCs are objectively terrible. Elise Randolph, a former CSM and longtime Pandemic Legion leader, actually laughed on the Talking in Stations livestream when he saw the incredible incompetence of their cyno placement. Vily later moaned “we had to do something!” – admitting the reality that they had no plan but knew their line members would revolt if their idiot leaders stood down another supercapital fleet because they faced the actual prospect of an even battle with the evil Imperium.

    (2). The failure in M2- led to PAPI’s policy of never using supercapitals or even capitals again unless they are unopposed. PAPI’s leaders Gobbins and PGL also publicly stated after M2- that they wouldn’t contest objectives unless they could leverage a clear numerical advantage.

    (3). Whining that The Imperium needs to be killed because we used the mechanics designed by the game’s developers too well is basically PAPI acknowledging that they are worse at EVE than The Imperium.

    June 21, 2021 at 8:07 AM
    • Moomin Amatin Guilford Australis

      The M2-X first battle is also very important for the reason that PAPI did not log back in after downtime. To my mind this is when the M2-X battle was actually lost by PAPI leadership. Making the call for their pilots to not log back in set the stage for the debacle of the second battle.

      Elise laughing with Killah Bee is one of my favourite bits of this war. Two such esteemed Eve players laughing at the nonsense being put forward by Vily as superior game-play.

      June 21, 2021 at 9:19 AM
      • chimpy Moomin Amatin

        You are bang on point Moomin about M2- being decided by the PAPI decision not to log back in after downtime. Until that point it was fairly even, at that moment it became a huge material and moral advantage for the Goons. Choosing not to log back in after downtime was the deciding/inflection point of the whole war in my opinion. PAPI’s leadership had become complacent gorging on the gourd of overwhelming odds guaranteeing victory, but that greed and resulting sloth left them ill prepared for an even fight with everything on the line. The truth is they bottled it because they weren’t prepared. The Goons facing annihilation had everything to fight for and a deep rooted cultural aversion to dying quietly simpering in the corner. The PAPI leadership chickened out and the rest is the historical record of the battle of M2-X. A system of no strategic value that paradoxically won the war for the Goons.

        June 21, 2021 at 4:44 PM
      • Was there also a Grath Telkin laugh-out-loud video or am I simply remembering the Elise one? I could’ve sworn that at one point I was watching a stream where there was some tryhard “Elite PvP” whiner from PAPI trying to justify what was occurring on screen while Grath Telkin literally laughed at him and told him what they were watching was some of the dumbest shit he’d ever seen.

        June 23, 2021 at 7:44 PM
  • Moomin Amatin

    In 2016 the Imperium had been kicked from its home by the very same people who are in PAPI now. The bit I always find so funny is that Sier never wants to ask that tricky question of “where did all the rent money go?”. Because it is not in Delve being wielded by PAPI forces to stop the evil goon menace. PAPI had exactly the same chances, if not far better, as the Imperium. How has all the PAPI wealth not ended up as ships in game to kill goons?

    Great piece by the way and totally on point.

    June 21, 2021 at 9:14 AM
    • Malcanis Moomin Amatin

      Well yeah but “where’s the money Vince Drakenski” is a rabbit hole I didn’t want to go down because, frankly, it’s meat for a whole other article that would be infinitely better produced by the GSOL team than me, and just introducing the topic as a throwaway point with no source or analysis would be Lucieling

      June 21, 2021 at 10:03 AM
      • Moomin Amatin Malcanis

        I had always hoped one of the “neutral news” sources would pick up the story. When I spoke to Lady Scarlet about it once on a certain Discord I was then told by the owner of the Discord to “leave it or I will ban you”. No points for guessing who that was.

        To give people an idea of what is pulled in through renting they need only do some basic maths. It used to be 1 bill per month per 0.1 true-sec level. Then there were other costs relating to fuel and iHubs and other “features”. So a true-sec level of -1.0 would be 10 billion per month before you even think about doing anything in there. Now look at how many regions have been rented over the years. Those numbers get real big real quick.

        June 21, 2021 at 11:35 AM
        • Malcanis Moomin Amatin

          It is, of course, absolutely fine and good for the game for that level of wealth to be going to a coalition that’s not the Imperium

          Perhaps Luciel would like to make the argument that if PanFam are indeed RMTing their ISK, then that stops them being problematically powerful…?

          June 21, 2021 at 11:45 AM
    • Seir Luciel Moomin Amatin

      I have no problem asking “where did all the rent money go,” Moomin. But it’s a loaded question, a little bit like asking “have you stopped beating your wife yet?” Premises are loaded into the question from the get-go.

      The truth is I have about as much an idea of where it went as you do: none. Because we can speculate all day, but until someone leaks spreadsheets and recites its just Goon’s word against non-Goon’s word. Neither of us has any evidence. But to throw you a bone, here are some places it could be going; at least, these are the ways I would be using it if I were in charge (which means absolutely nothing, because I’m not a leader and I’m not EVE-smart enough to say much in this regard with authority).

      ———————————————————

      1) Being wielded by PAPI forces in Delve via

      a) SRP

      b) Providing massive subsidies to major ship producers and supply chains to prevent market fluctuation from impeding weapon’s production in war time. Such subsidies could also allow ship producers to sell their goods at lower prices to lessen the weight of your soldier’s wallets.

      c) To commission ship producers to make certain doctrines, including new ones like the Skybreaker that might not be profitable otherwise, or too expensive for average line-members to purchase (and repurchase given heavy losses).

      c1) Even just purchasing outright certain ship doctrines on the Jita market can be a part of the war effort. Imagine PAPI announcing certain doctrines and Goons with their great wealth purchasing loads of these off the market, not to use them, but to pinch the market for their enemies, either making PAPI purchase at higher prices or cutting their ship-import (and all other imports) supplies altogether. Don’t think there isn’t all kinds of economic warfare maneuvers going on behind the scenes. Being able to compete in such maneuvers would cost a hell of a lot of dough.

      d) To maintain perpetual buyback programs for Ore, ice, gas, and moon-goo to protect miners, especially newer ones or ones who don’t mine full time, from selling difficulties creating a stable buyer’s market for them. This provides perpetual incentive for miners and huffers during scarcity when an attacking force needs to make sure the income of resources doesn’t let up.

      e) To pay FC’s and new player initiatives, such as classes, to keep content churning (probably not that expensive, but gets paid for by the state nonetheless).

      f) To pay for mercenaries and other groups who might otherwise not take a side in the current conflict.

      g) In an emergency, to prop up groups like BRAVE who might otherwise lag behind at times in the conflict; it could be used to incentivize groups from tapping out (if there are such groups) which would a great political loss given that members leaving the conflict can create morale blowbacks. We just don’t know what deals have been made in the background; maybe none, maybe many.

      ————————-
      These are all places the money could be going. But given that neither of us know, neither of us can say for certain. Furthermore, we don’t know how much money there is. “WhErE’s AlL tHe MoNeY gOiNg?” automatically assumes there is more money than there really is; it gives the reader this kind of vague, sense of shadow money, feeling really ominous.

      Perhaps what you want me to say is that the money is going to RMT. It very well might be. I hope not; I certainly don’t approve of that. But that would actually work in Goon’s favor because less of the money would be going “to fight the evil Goon menace” as you say. If I were Goons, if all I wanted to do was survive, I might hope my enemy was doing a lot of RMTing. It certainly wouldn’t help their chances.

      Don’t take that as a justification, or something, for RMT. Like I said, I really hope not. I don’t approve at all. But unlike botting, which actually could have in-game benefits if used for in-game toys, RMTing dissipates wealth instead of consolidating it for the benefit of your team.

      June 21, 2021 at 7:04 PM
      • Malcanis Seir Luciel

        “Premises are loaded into the question from the get-go.”

        In all justice, I just wrote ~4500 words lauding you as the Subject Matter Expert on this technique, so we really should listen to you.

        June 21, 2021 at 8:49 PM
      • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

        If you had a go at some napkin maths for rental income for the last decade you may rethink your answer. There is a paper trail by the way if you want to follow it. Rental rates are generally quite public.

        June 21, 2021 at 9:18 PM
        • Seir Luciel Moomin Amatin

          Do the maths or show me the paper trail, Moomin. I’m an agnostic to this paper trail god of yours.

          June 21, 2021 at 9:23 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

            I am not Googling this one for you. You support renting if you want as you are now living the PAPI dream. Ask Lady Scarlet about renting and see where that gets you.

            June 22, 2021 at 4:25 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

            “Do the maths or show me the paper trail.”

            So you can write a few thousand words a week about papi isn’t completely shit and it’s all CCP’s fault you still haven’t won, but you can’t spend a few minutes to do: (systems rented) * (sec status) * (amount per sec level)?

            June 26, 2021 at 3:15 AM
          • Moomin Amatin Garreth Vlox

            I am looking forward to how Sier will work in Gobbins wanting to take credit for scarcity. 🙂

            June 27, 2021 at 7:59 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Moomin Amatin

            I like how 9 times out of 10 he won’t even respond to me anymore since I’ve made a habit out of pointing out his indefensible bullshit.

            June 28, 2021 at 2:20 AM
      • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

        “I have no problem asking “where did all the rent money go,” Moomin. But it’s a loaded question”

        Then go ahead and ask it…. you won’t.

        June 26, 2021 at 3:13 AM
  • Jeet_Kundo

    Grabbing some popcorn and Flamin’ Hots to watch this shitshow about to erupt. Extremely well written though and highlights all the gaps in logic that we’ve all come to expect of our favorite Red Team member.

    June 21, 2021 at 12:23 PM
    • Malcanis Jeet_Kundo

      I skated past quite a few gaps – this piece was long enough without doing every last one. So I focused on the ones relevant to the main thesis of the article.

      June 21, 2021 at 1:39 PM
      • Jeet_Kundo Malcanis

        All the major repeat-offenders, to rephrase. He has a pattern and you addressed it by and large.

        June 21, 2021 at 2:19 PM
  • BriscRubal

    This was the most brutal takedown I have ever read here.

    June 21, 2021 at 2:38 PM
  • Seir Luciel

    I guess if The Imperium’s selling, The Imperium’s buying: nevermind the
    quality of the product. (I actually expected better of you Brisc, but maybe
    your comment was coming from Brisc the leader and not Brisc the reader.)

    Why does it always seem that when someone screams “red herrings”
    their own herrings are redder than blood? And why can’t the good close readers
    I know Goons to be notice that, when this article’s theme is The Elisions of
    Seir Luciel, the greatest elision in this article was anything I actually said.
    And I mean that quite literally. When I wanted to make some big points in my
    Casus Belli article I quoted whole conversations from
    Goon-run podcasts, in context. That’s called evidence.
    Submission barely quotes me at all, and that’s telling.

    Here’s a critical reading lesson, Goons. If an author writes a
    deconstruction piece, hardly ever citing the author they are trying to
    deconstruct, its a sign they didn’t understand very well what they were
    reading, or that they’re hoping you didn’t understand the
    piece they’re deconstructing well. The first is what it is but the second is
    simply an insult to your, as a reader, intelligence.

    Here’s just one example (notice how I quote my rhetorical opponent, in
    context, without cherry picking a phrase or two and then extrapolate wild,
    mystic meanings from a couple words); my opponent says:

    Luciel sensibly notes that PAPI is far too large and
    diverse a group for this question to have anything remotely resembling a single
    answer, but then immediately gives the answer. He summarizes most of what I’ve written in the last sections in a single sentence: because “I don’t like you.” Here’s another example of inadvertent honesty. No, indeed: he doesn’t like the
    Imperium. He wants it defeated, humbled, humiliated, gone, dead destroyed,
    erased, and he doesn’t want any further defeats along the
    way.

    Let’s look at what I actually wrote:

    Caleb is right; much
    of PAPI’s spoken reasons for fighting this war have been scattered, unorganized;
    however I would counter that, in a space pew pew video game, there doesn’t needto be any reasons more complex than 1) “I don’t like you” and 2) “Because I
    want to.” But to Caleb’s point, one of the reasons PAPI’s narratives haven’t
    been unified is quite simple – that’s what you get when you create a NATO or a
    Warsaw Pact.

    What becomes apparent immediately is, first of all, the “I don’t like you”
    is in quotes. I’m not actually saying that. The phrase “I don’t like you” isn’t
    used to signify my feelings towards The Imperium but to highlight there’s only two relevant reasons people need to go to war, rather than the cacophony of reasons Goons have been citing and calling for with regards to WWBII. The context is in relation to what Caleb Aryana has said, which I quote extensively.

    So goes most of the article. If I didn’t say something, I likely didn’t mean
    it. I tend to say what I mean on INN, and prefer not to have Goon translators.

    So lets take a look at the major points.

    “Then came round 2. This is where Sier Luciel would have us believe that CCP failed their customers and forced an undeserved defeat on his noble comrade crusaders by their server node falling over.”

    No, I would not have you believe this. Otherwise I would have said so. What
    I said was:

    “Throwing up your hands is not the same as throwing in the towel,”explained creative director Bergur Finnbogason, also known as CCP Burger. “The kinds of changes needed to allow for 12,000-plus player battles are still years away.” Even if these fears are false, they may be be very real in the minds of prospective, new, and old players alike; it could lessen the amount of players willing to try a new game, thinking that the winners of yesterday will always and forever be the winners of tomorrow. This is a factor many new players already are suspicious of.

    I quoted CCP’s creative director, an appeal to an authority, who admits that
    the technology to sustain some of the fights we are having in EVE isn’t always
    reliable. That quote is from a larger piece written by a Polygon article
    entitled: “Eve Online is getting crushed by its own success: What happens when too many people show up for your star war?” The titles says it all. What you find then is that my questioning the limits of the servers is not the ravings
    of some sore-assed PAPI member who lost M2, but the real concerns of a CCP
    director and a neutral, third-party gaming website. So don’t take my word for
    it; listen to what other people with more authority than I have said and come
    to your own conclusion.

    I even left a little wiggle room for Goons, saying:

    “Even if these fears are false, they may be be very real in the minds of prospective, new, and old players alike; it could lessen the amount of players willing to try a new game, thinking that the winners of yesterday will always and forever be the winners of tomorrow.”

    Meaning: even if you don’t buy the idea that the servers have limitations in huge fights, or that M2 was caused by such server malfunctions, these fears are real in people’s minds. At some level, what matters most is that people believe the servers won’t hold up, that Polygon writes articles that spread that fear around. It will change how people play, or even if they play at all. This point my opponent completely glides over.

    So the claim that “Sier Luciel would have us believe that the forces of the
    decadent imperialistic node conspiracy stabbed PAPI in the back and robbed them of a deserved victory” is completely false. If I thought that, I would have
    said that. We even go so far off the rails that we completely reverse the
    consensus of history and claim that the node crashing actually saved PAPI’s
    forces:

    “When EVE’s server node did fail, this was at least partly due to the deliberate action of Papi command, in order to save their supercapital
    fleet from a huge blunder.”

    This is said when both PAPI and Goons (even The Mittani in a Polygon article) admit that the server melting down was the reason for PAPI’s M2 defeat. It was one of the few things PAPI and The Imperium agreed on; the two sides simply interpreted it differently, one side saying they were robbed and the other side saying PAPI was stupid. Now suddenly the servers were the thing that saved PAPI, not the thing that effected their defeat: an Orwellian proposition if there ever was one.

    My opponent moves to attempting to counter my claims that The Imperium got
    really, really rich. So rich, in fact, they had to warn CCP about what was happening. So rich, that other groups might want to attack Goons for it.

    The kicker is that these aren’t even my claims; they came from Caleb Aryaia,
    Arrendis, and Moomin Amatin (who asks if it The Imperium’s wealth increase was actually a problem), and TheMacCloud. I quote a full conversation between them. Caleb noted that The Imperium’s wealth increase was “infinitely scalable.” I even put a neat little graphic, showing how much The Imperium was pulling away from other groups; their wealth engine was even surpassing The Forge at some points. Go and read the full discussion here: https://imperium.news/whats-papis-casus-belli-too-big-to-fail-vs-allowed-to-lose/

    If you don’t like the things I said about The Imperium’s richness, you’re
    wasting time trying to deconstruct me because it was your own guys who said it. That’s why I quoted them, so that Goons didn’t have to take my word for it.
    They could hear it from the horse’s mouth.

    Most of the rest of the article is projecting a lot of assumptions (or “red
    herrings,” as he would say) about my mindset: 1) that I just really hate goons
    and want to see them humiliated and disbanded, every single goon quitting the game[paragraph 45]; 2) that my worldview is a dichotomy between ruler/ruled—master/slave where if Goons are just living their life in their corner without PanFam ruling over them my domination senses start tingling and I immediately feel I’m being oppressed [paragraph 54, 56 and 60]; 3) that if PAPI loses I want CCP to come to our rescue because us losing automatically means something is wrong with the game and CCP should change it in just such a way so that PAPI can evict Goons from Delve [paragraph 19 and 40]; 4) that I don’t “want legends in [my] game” [paragraph 48]; 5) that I somehow am really affected that someone in a video game “hurt people’s feelings” [paragraph 44]; 6) that I “really mean is that it would be good for [goon’s] moral character to be beaten so badly that they had to disband” [paragraph 38]; 7) that “Goons deserve to be attacked by the entire galaxy for something they said” [paragraph 50].

    Whoever this Seir Luciel guy is that this article is constructing, I don’t
    know him; no wonder goons don’t like him, I wouldn’t like him either. But he doesn’t exist. None of the above have I stated anywhere, nor do I believe these things. But Goons do seem believe that I believe these things, as quick as they are told. Why? Is it because Goons are desperate for a counter-narrative (even Brisc, whom I tend to respect a lot and consider a practiced, nuanced thinker/reader), one which puts their minds at ease after the latest Seir Luciel article comes out. Am I such a gadfly that Goons must frantically rustle through their drawers for their vials of hemlock?

    In my article I made two main points: both were pretty handily ignored by my
    opponent. They are simple ideas, articulated and defended by authoritative members of Goons and CCP directors. 1) Battles in EVE may be getting so large that outnumbering your opponent could cease to become scalable to the size of EVE Online. This would be a bad thing. 1a) But even if this weren’t the case, its clear that people are beginning to worry that it might be the case. And just like in the stock market, fear matters as much as reality because it affects how people act. People might stop playing, or wont start playing because of such a fear. My opponent won’t touch this.

    2) My second point was that Goons got very, very rich; they got far richer
    than the rest of EVE in large part due to game mechanics that CCP later
    removed, after being warned by Goons themselves that their wealth-increase was ridiculous. It seems both CCP and Goons thought what they were doing was a bug, not a feature. So the goldmine dried up and now, living in scarcity, the rest of the galaxy has turned on the group who benefited most from that goldmine. Perfectly reasonable, though goons hate it, obviously. And they are trying with all their might to reframe something perfectly reasonable as irrational, because Goons know the value of wartime propaganda. Shaping the narrative of war is one of Goon’s greatest strengths.

    2a) People are going to worry that “infinitely scalable” wealth will have no
    counter; this is especially true now that we live in scarcity and Goon’s advice
    to the rest of nullsec is to pull themselves up by their bootstraps isn’t viable
    (and they know it). Again, like the stock market, even if infinitely scalable
    wealth can be beaten, if its not, people are going to believe it is impossible
    and EVE’s market of motivation might find itself in a recession. This war is
    going to have consequences, and it really doesn’t matter how PAPI or Goons feel about those consequences. My point was that they are coming. And from a PAPI member’s perspective, I want to know that my side still has a shot to be competitive long-term.

    So in the mean time, I ain’t drinking this hemlock and I urge the rest of
    you to read what I actually said and not just swallow down what my opponent claims that I said.

    June 21, 2021 at 4:46 PM
    • Apropos here “‘The lady doth protest too much, methinks”

      June 21, 2021 at 5:57 PM
      • Seir Luciel Lrrp

        Maybe you’re right. But when Moomin wrote a counter-article to mine and I let the piece breath without being over present, Romulus Loches wrote me:

        “Then do some more research and defend your position. You came up with points to support your theory and wrote an article, someone else
        addressed those points and countered them. The next step is for you to
        either bring up new points, explain how the counterpoints don’t apply,
        or concede your position. That’s how debates work, that’s what makes an interesting dialogue that people will read and follow.”

        I guess it got to me.

        June 21, 2021 at 6:06 PM
        • J Moravia Seir Luciel

          That’s extremely good advice, but your rebuttal should be done in the context of a new article, not in ad-hoc responses to individual comments. When you respond to commenters, you’re responding on their terms; when you write an article (like this one), you’re responding on your own terms.

          June 21, 2021 at 6:51 PM
          • Seir Luciel J Moravia

            Maybe you’re right too: next time I’ll write a counter-to-the-counter article.

            June 21, 2021 at 7:12 PM
          • Jeet_Kundo Seir Luciel

            Easy, by putting it center stage. As Moravia stated, it puts it on your terms. Trying to revise what was said versus what was meant ex post facto in the comments in a later article loses that footing. Just as a statement and not so much an attack when it comes to writing long-winded anythings: be clear and concise. Even if you feel like you may have, you need to consider your reader.

            When you write at-length and appear to have spent too much time on the gotchas and impact-statements, you leave yourself open for misinterpretation that can (and will) be used against you. He capitalized on your malleable points, make them less malleable in the future.

            June 21, 2021 at 9:22 PM
          • Malcanis Jeet_Kundo

            Also, try using actual facts and things that happened, and a modicum of intellectual honesty

            June 22, 2021 at 4:47 AM
          • Jeet_Kundo Malcanis

            Right, fixing those malleable points.

            June 22, 2021 at 10:42 AM
          • J Moravia Seir Luciel

            Never in the history in the internet has there been someone who came out looking *better* by responding to every comment critiquing one of their positions. That’s all I’m saying.

            June 22, 2021 at 1:30 AM
          • Personally I think you should just quit Panfam and join Goonswarm, instead of torturing yourself with endless attempts to justify the ill-conceived actions of a bunch of retards.

            June 23, 2021 at 8:19 PM
          • Seir Luciel Ganthrithor

            Are you really that convinced that the rest of the galaxy has nothing to offer? Not everyone shares this goons-or-nothing point of view.

            June 24, 2021 at 3:37 AM
          • I’m not convinced of anything of the sort: I could easily see myself happily being a member of some smaller nullsec or even lowsec or wormhole group. I’m sure there are plenty of cool groups to be found around New Eden. I just feel like if you’re going to be part of a large bloc right now (which evidently you want to be, since you joined PAPI) it’s either Goons or the other guys, and the other guys are really blatantly undesirable.

            June 24, 2021 at 11:19 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

            ” Not everyone shares this goons-or-nothing point of view.”

            Clearly all the people who joined your side (aka literally the entire rest of nullsec) do….

            June 26, 2021 at 3:18 AM
    • Malcanis Seir Luciel

      “My opponent barely quotes me at all, and that’s telling.”

      Ah, you didn’t read as far as the conclusion then?

      June 21, 2021 at 8:56 PM
    • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

      To address your specific main points.

      1. Player numbers in a system has been a part of the game since the very beginning. To say that this is “now” a problem is disingenuous in my opinion. Have you not read of the Great War or The Fountain War or The Casino War and beyond? The issue of jamming players into a system is not a new one and one that we all collectively push on.

      2. The ISK made by the Imperium was no secret. What we did in Delve could have been done by anyone. PAPI chose not too. Where the Imperium’s ISK went is also no secret. PAPI have spent a year cheering about killing it. It is harder to find PAPI ISK though. This is on the back of the Imperium being made homeless in the first place. So to plead that goons are too rich when 5 years ago they were the bottom of the heap is laughable. Where did all the PAPI ISK go?

      I appreciate your efforts though. You do bring the best arguments that PAPI has. it is just a case of PAPI not really having very good arguments now. If only PAPI had used a slightly different phrasing and strategy at the start this would all be over by now easily. I should also note that the “cult” and “North Korea” stuff did probably not work in your favour either, lesson learnt huh? 🙂

      June 21, 2021 at 9:08 PM
      • Seir Luciel Moomin Amatin

        1. If I’m being disingenuous than so are the authorities I cited; it may not be new, but its also not just me saying this.

        2. Goons troubles 5 years ago, pre-Delve Miracle doesn’t negate that Goons exploited something that was “infinitely scalable” and “broken” (Caleb’s terms, not mine) and later patched by CCP. Goon’s poverty in the past is less relevant than the reasons for Goon opulence in the present.

        Read my reply to you above answering where the money might go.

        June 21, 2021 at 9:17 PM
        • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

          “Exploited”? You mean play the game that was developed by CCP and to offer constructive feedback via the CSM, that sort of exploitation right?

          I read your reply about the money. Does not cut it either. I will just add it to the list of “I told you so” moments I seem to be building up for this war.

          June 22, 2021 at 4:40 AM
        • Novartis Seir Luciel

          It’s not an exploit if everyone is able to do it without a need to tamper any of the system at all. It is provided by the system and it’s stupid not to use it at all. The scream should not about why the Goon is rich. BUT WHY YOU DON’T USE IT TOO? And if you use it too then why you cry goons is too rich when they give more time to the game?

          And if you say that goons poverty in the past is less relevant than the reasons for goon opulence in the presence, then using the same logic it’s the same as it’s not relevant to say that BOB and other coalition/alliance that has been humbled and now become the major player(NC., or panfam you choose) isn’t someone that is also as rich goons. Your saying that it’s not relevant at all just deconstruct your whole argument. You basically just say that your old playstyle as the lazy guy that don’t use the given system is not relevant at all to your current state that cried goon is too rich.

          June 22, 2021 at 6:13 AM
        • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

          “1. If I’m being disingenuous then so are the authorities I cited; it may not be new, but its also not just me saying this.”

          You’re literally going with the, “it’s not my fault I look stupid it’s the fault of the people I quoted” excuse?

          June 26, 2021 at 3:17 AM
    • GuardianDevil Seir Luciel

      Can you clarify a few things for me please? When you are discussing the rental money with Moomin, are you suggesting that that money can pay for the whole war effort basically? If yes, doesn’t that mean that Goons are not that much richer if richer at all than PAPI?

      For your unanswered two main points:

      Your biggest issue is server performance during big fights.

      “it could lessen the amount of players willing to try a new game, thinking that the winners of yesterday will always and forever be the winners of tomorrow”

      Forming PAPI and blueing all of nullsec is the right way to avoid it I guess with the proposed warden system. I’m curious about your opinion on this one.

      Let me tell you a funny story: after the hull timer of M2 I gave a short AAR to my wife because she was curious why did I spent a whole day infront of the stupid space game again. After explaining the opening move she needed 5 seconds to ask me “Why didn’t they jump to somewhere else in the system and then warp to battle?” Well, you don’t have to worry about server issues when a complete outsider comes up with a better idea in 5 seconds than your FC responsible for your titan/supercap fleet.

      My opinion about server issues and new players are the following – the game is so complex/confusing that these battles are the least of concern for new players especially because they are so rare. So it is an issue but mostly for PAPI because you can’t play what you do best – hell dunk or blue balls.

      The second one, Goons wealth. Oh boy. I think our side tried to explain it to you at least a dozen times, just because you don’t like the answer we did not skip that topic. I will try to summarize it here, maybe this time you will get it.

      So. Every side played within the same rules. Goons did not find PVE ridiculous and made a lot more effort. Your side fucked up in that regard. End of story.

      Also you are suggesting that we find it irrational and hate the fact that you want to cut us back. Some of us maybe, but for the guys posting here the irrational part is your whining about that Goons became soooo rich. Yeah, previous point, you fucked up by not making the same effort.

      In another comment of yours it was an exploit. Explain this to me please, is it an exploit because Goons did better or what? It was within the rules and the rules were the same for everyone.

      You want to know that your side still has a shot in long term. Well, that’s natural, you are rooting for your team, that’s how things work, I don’t think anyone can object that. We answered this for you already, but again let me repeat it: make more effort than us. With three times more people it can’t be that hard. But don’t expect it to be done by wars only and don’t expect it to be a quick thing. You want to close a gap much faster than the time you let it grow. If there is a gap at all. Based on Moomins numbers a rented region yields 500b isk per month on average (lets count with 400b to be on the safe side) So that’s 4,8t per year. How many regions for how many years? How many titans are those? Is that really true that PAPI still didn’t reimburse all the lost titans in M2?

      At this point I’m not sure what do you want, a meaningful conversation about the actual issues, or just trolling with some Gish gallop/eristic shit, because you gracefully ignore what we say when you can not argue with it. It also helps if you apply the same standards to both sides. You can’t brush arguments aside with “I don’t care what happened 5-10 years ago, it’s irrelevant to me” because todays situation is rooted in the actions of the past. And if it’s a problem that the Imperium is to strong, than it’s a problem if any of the coalitions are too strong, because we were talking about what’s good for the game not what’s good for your side.

      Start address my questions seriously please because the Seir-ious approach is enough for now.

      Thanks.

      June 21, 2021 at 10:59 PM
      • Seir Luciel GuardianDevil

        Alright then; let’s talk serious.

        Your biggest issue is server performance during big fights.

        “it could lessen the amount of players willing to try a new game, thinking that the winners of yesterday will always and forever be the winners of tomorrow”

        Forming PAPI and blueing all of nullsec is the right way
        to avoid it I guess with the proposed warden system. I’m curious about your opinion on this one.

        My opinion about the growth of the game takes into account more than just PAPI’s loss at M2. In fact, a similar thing happened to goons earlier this war if I remember correctly. Goons had practiced this rather impressive maneuver with their titans, and they were going to spring a trap on PAPI. Right when they were going to do it there were server issues and the maneuver didn’t work, PAPI’s titans got away. The Imperium didn’t shout as loud about it, but the stakes were much lower than M2 for PAPI; so work with me here and chalk it up to intense emotions, instead of trying to make some kind of character analysis/comparison, with goons being the more stoic and less whiny of the two.

        This is one example on the other side, but the issue is bigger than single instances. Right now we are at a stalemate in the war; part of this, as far as I understand, has to do with the way large numbers have to be funneled through gates. This combined with time dilation and area of effect attacks, like bombers, makes attacking either into 3-D/1DQ or out of it nightmarish; and at scale, maybe implausible. So yes, I’ve focused on M2 because that’s the locus of a lot of this discussion regarding “are the numbers getting too big for fights.” That’s what the Polygon article looked at, for instance. But when I talk about the issue I’m thinking about the issue more expansively, not simply M2 alone.

        My opinion about M2 is that my side took a huge risk, one that didn’t work out. I’m not a gambling man, so I don’t know if I would have taken it. But it is what it is. Having said that, at smaller scales it might have been an effective maneuver, if one could have faith that one didn’t have to take the server into account. The fact is you do, and I get that. But as battles continue to grow in size, such as WWBII is providing, it (looks to me like it) starts creating new standards for what is accomplishable and what is not when accounting for server issues. How many things are going to get put in the “can’t do that with this many people” box if the population keeps outpacing server capacity? Is there a point where that box encloses every battle maneuver that was previously viable at smaller scales, especially from an attacker’s position?

        Your second question, about Goons’ wealth. Yes, Goon’s have explained it to me, many times. And yes: we all were playing by the same rules and my side dropped the ball. I said this in my article, a mea culpa. I agree with you: from now on the elements of PAPI are going to have to construct effective, organized economies that rival whatever Goons construct at the end of this war. I’m not actually arguing against these points.

        So here’s my question to you: after dropping the ball, how long should a side be punished for not performing as well as another team in EVE online in the past, especially given the changing economic sphere? 2 years? 5? For the rest of the game? How long should a team continue to feel a past loss once they determine to do better henceforth? If we are having a serious discussion, I’m a newer generation player: as someone who has inherited all of EVE’s past, I personally am not responsible for what my team did in the past because I wasn’t there to do what Goons did, given all things were equal. I wasn’t there to try and encourage my teammates: “Hey guys, we need to do what they’re doing.” Maybe they wouldn’t have listened, maybe not. But either way, how long should a player like me (or even older players) be stuck with the bill of past missed chances?

        You seem to sympathize with my wanting my team to do well. My fear is that if PAPI didn’t take steps to lessen The Imperium’s strength and wealth, we very might well have been paying for past mistakes for the rest of the game. Allow me a starcraft analogy; if your macro and economy is better than mine by midgame, obviously what I am going to want to do next game is work on my eco game to make it as strong as yours. But what about this game? If I want to win this game there isn’t much use crying about spilt milk; I can, however, try to reaver-drop/storm/lurker-drop your mineral line. If my early game economy is weaker than yours, I can try to make up for it in the midgame by attacking your economy while I keep up my own, even improve it. It just about any game, especially RTS’s this is standard practice.

        But in EVE many Goons claim this is “punishing Goons for being successful” or “trying to bring good people down to sucky player’s level.” No one in an RTS would even think of such a complaint; you just don’t get these kinds of ethics in most other gaming communities. Goons may see what I write as “whining about how rich Goons got,” but I was simply providing a (to me) semi-obvious rational as to why this war is happening in the first place, one Goons asked for many times here on INN. It’s a reason that would be accepted in just about any other gaming community, but apparently not here on INN.

        Was this addressed seriously enough? Is there anything else you’d like my opinion on?

        June 21, 2021 at 11:43 PM
        • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

          T20. That was a “wealth creation” issue that was never addressed. Casino ISK was taken out from the game by CCP but only after Goons were defeated with its use. So Goons work hard after being beaten again and PAPI want CCP to reset things as somehow all that rental ISK has gone?

          Your logic and critical thinking are leaving a lot to be desired at this time.

          June 22, 2021 at 4:35 AM
        • GuardianDevil Seir Luciel

          I think you are thinking along one line regarding server issues. Forcing 10k+ players into a single system is not the only option to beat your opponent, even in this war. This is the way your leaders chose. So it is a problem for you. I agree that in a situation like now it makes it much harder but other than the 1-2 great battles it’s hardly an issue. Maybe it’s too late, but your side could have done much better employing assault group tactics 24/7 with your superiority in player numbers. The real reason behind our mocking you in this is the lack of trying. If you would see one attack through with capitals to see how bad it is we would have no reason to do it. And depending on the outcome you could say “ok, let’s go this way its’ costly but doable” or “this approach is going to lead to pyrrhic victories, we need to come up with something else”. The fear of loss (material and tactical) is holding your leaders back at this point not the servers.

          Ok, I see your point about wealth. The answer is simply as long as it takes for you to close the gap. It’s the same as losing weight you can’t get in shape for summer in a month after neglecting your body for the rest of the year. The harder you work the sooner you get results. And it’s not that bad that you can’t do anything until you reach parity. I think the reasonable amount of time is the same you wasted before.

          Yeah the “punishing Goons” opinion is propaganda, the new system is punishing everyone. I don’t think anyone disagrees with the “if one side is too strong they are asking for it” opinion, we just find it funny that your side let us to be too strong and now you try to apply the same approach what let us too strong before but hoping for a different outcome (when I say your side it’s 99% your leaders actions/words) and crying about the unfair situation.

          Since you can’t really destroy anyones wallet the past is important when you want to win.

          You forgot to address the renting money numbers, maybe we are at parity already, who knows.

          June 22, 2021 at 5:41 AM
          • Garreth Vlox GuardianDevil

            The ideal way to fight this war was the opposite of what they did, they actually needed to attack through 2 regions as they started and then when they managed to pull goons out to defend their space they NEEDED the 1dq1 headshot, it was the only way to avoid what has happened which is all of the imperium being concentrated in the most defensively hardened system in the game with a stockpile of ships and ammo that will not run out. PAPI through cowardice, ineptitude, and stupidity literally built the fort they are complaining is too hard to attack by being to scared to reach out and attack it while it was still vulnerable. Now there’s no other option but to jump in, and pay a massive blood price in dead caps per timer, per structure. And they have all publicly admitted they are unwilling to do, but they again show their stupidity in thinking they can achieve with subcaps what they are too scared to try and achieve with caps, so instead of jumping in their claimed “largest titan fleet ever” they send in the harpies…

            June 26, 2021 at 3:22 PM
        • Zaand Seir Luciel

          “So here’s my question to you: after dropping the ball, how long should a side be punished for not performing as well as another team in EVE online in the past…”

          Well, Goons managed to survive, fight and flourish for the better part of a decade when it was PL/NC. that held complete hegemonic control of supers in the game, including tracking titans, wrecking ball fleets and dropping titans anytime 50 or more cruisers got into a fight anywhere in the game. So maybe adapt or die. We did, and we didn’t cry about it nearly as much.

          June 23, 2021 at 2:04 PM
        • Hahaha, OK but here’s how the Starcraft game of EVE: The Second Decade actually looks:

          – Your opponent takes far fewer bases than you, but somehow produces more gas and minerals

          – You recruit three other players to your team and force them to set up the mining bases, then take 50% of the minerals and gas they extract

          – You build a massive army of only Roaches and Hydralisks, because you’re fucking lazy and don’t want to build a lot of structures or click a lot of buttons because that’s beneath you and all you really want to do is demonstrate your self-reported excellent micromanagement skills in combat

          – One day you decide it’s time to mow the lawn of that other player, so you show up with your massive Roach/Hydra comp that you’ve built using four players’ worth of money, all jazzed to show the world how good you are at microing

          – You run your army face-first into a fatal funnel where the enemy’s Zealots block the chokepoint while max-range Colossi rip your army to shreds from the nearby hilltops: the army is obliterated

          – You whine on stream about how Blizzard’s shitty servers made you lose, double down on your taxation of other players, and vow to simply starve your enemy out by parking two-hundred Zerglings on top of every available resource node and waiting for your enemy to run out of mineral patches and quit the game

          – When the enemy doesn’t quit, you whine about it on the forums and talk about how Brood Lords need a range buff so that you can finally finish assaulting that one player’s base without risking casualties

          June 23, 2021 at 8:15 PM
    • Rhivre Seir Luciel

      I only have one comment

      1a) But even if this weren’t the case, its clear that people are beginning to worry that it might be the case. And just like in the stock market, fear matters as much as reality because it affects how people act. People might stop playing, or wont start playing because of such a fear. My opponent doesn’t touch this.

      People begin to worry about many things, especially when they are told to worry about them.

      I could write entire articles on the story of how market trading got changed because people felt there was a problem due to misunderstanding, then they were told there was a problem, and then they were asked if it was a problem.
      When they replied it was, CCP used their replies to justify changes.

      Or blackout. Were sinks and faucets really out of control? Did it feel like they were out of control? If so, why did it feel like that? What information were people acting on?

      I am never sold by things about how people feel or what they are going to worry about, given how easy it is to influence that.

      June 21, 2021 at 11:47 PM
  • Lrrp

    “Although Seir Luciel would have us believe that the forces of the decadent imperialistic node conspiracy stabbed PAPI in the back and robbed them of a deserved victory”.

    Lets understand one thing. While you are correct in a current sense PL has been back
    stabbers for years.
    It feels strange a coallition with PL in it’s midst calling anyone a “back stabber” is laughable.
    Perhaps He is trying to replace Jach Benny.

    “the “injustice” that Luciel is concerned about centers around the Imperium trying to avoid defeat by
    a coalition that is three time larger than the previous record.”

    Luciel needs to understand the old military axioms of what it takes to attack prepared defensive positions.
    One example is D-Day. There were 156,000 allied troops against 50,000 Germans, another 3 to 1 ratio. Sorry Luciel, I guess your boys
    can’t hack it, so you look for excuses. Sad really.

    “He talks eloquently about how very dreadful it would be if EVE were to fail by “not allowing” Goons to lose. ”

    Wow this makes as much sense as saying “Burning, looting, and ruining peoples lives is just a form of peaceful protest

    June 21, 2021 at 5:45 PM
  • kwnyupstate .

    Tick tock tick tock another day of inaction by PAPI and no new genius strategy on how to beat the Imperium. This war will end with the largest coalition of players ever defeating a bunch of structures, congrats.

    June 21, 2021 at 7:05 PM
    • Garreth Vlox kwnyupstate .

      the best part is going to be when the “end” comes and panfam goes home to put their house in order and tapi is left to try and live in their new stager, next door to the imperium stager with nowhere else to go because their old home has already been burned to the ground.

      June 26, 2021 at 3:21 AM
  • tootiredtoname

    I genuinely enjoy coming to Imperium news and reading the intelligent, well-thought articles here after a hard day’s work in Reddit, where a paragraph constitutes an insurmountable word wall to many people.

    I especially enjoy Seir Luciel inserting a PAPI perspective that keeps the conversations vigorous and back-and-forth.

    But, I wanted to speak as a person who switches between reading game academic writing and laughing at poorly made memes to a point brought up in this article – the true motivation of PAPI and especially PanFam.

    I started playing EVE specifically after reading about the largest internet battle ever. This war has fascinated me from the start. But my fascination cannot overcome my introverted and authority-hating core nature and I am mostly in hi-sec in a personal corporation. About a month ago I put an alt character into Pandemic Horde so that I could fight in the war and experience large-scale fleet battles. I joined Pandemic Horde because it was easy to join, and they don’t demand any special information from me or my dedication to them.

    That’s it. The only reason I show up in fleets and fight is for the fun of it. I have spoken with multiple people so far, and most of the people in Horde seem to just enjoy playing the game. They sometimes make Goon jokes, but I haven’t seen anything remotely approaching the deep-seated pathological issues that the author brings up. Maybe for the leadership and other old timers there is something more, but I think most of the rank and file are just playing the game.

    Whether Goons are essential to the game or bad for it, is very far beyond me. If you had asked me 15 years ago if any online game would last for two decades, I would have said without doubt, No. Online MMORPGs, especially graphical ones, are still really new, and haven’t existed beyond any living generation. I am curious to see how long a game like EVE, WOW, or Runescape can last. And I hope to continue playing EVE for quite a while after this war.

    June 22, 2021 at 1:52 AM
  • Holy shit this is a spicy and excellent article. Really, really well-done.

    June 23, 2021 at 7:35 PM
  • Garreth Vlox

    “Let’s back up, because his account misses a couple of very important facts, which is Seir Luciel’s signature style. He wields those missing facts with all the deceptive deftness and dexterity of one of those incredibly old dual-wielding guys in those Wuxia movies.”

    This is the best description of his style I have seen yet.

    June 26, 2021 at 3:09 AM
  • For sure this was one of the highpoints of EVE: The Second Decade for me. Watching space-millenials get bitch-slapped across their own stage by a dude who’s allegedly “on the same side” was just a thing of beauty. Thank god there are at least a few other players out there who remember the historical strugglefest that has been EVE online and appreciates the fact that merely showing up isn’t and shouldn’t be enough to assure victory.

    July 4, 2021 at 10:38 AM
    • Garreth Vlox Ganthrithor

      I’d have to re-watch the broadcast to be sure but I could have sworn it was the military genius in chief of test, vily himself, that grath slapped around in that episode.

      July 5, 2021 at 6:57 AM