Decadence, not might, is the answer


Header art by Major Sniper

The PAPI Dream

Far too often during World War Bee, I have seen a common misconception among some PAPI members : a recurring dream that, if you outnumber the Imperium by enough – as this particular PAPI FC seeks – they will crumble. Quite a few people in PAPI dream that they are saving the game, by uniting to remove the Imperium from the game. The story goes that if PAPI can cause a failure cascade in the Imperium, all the other coalitions will also disband because they will no longer be afraid of the Imperium. This mass disbanding will supposedly save nullsec from large bloc warfare.

If PAPI’s goal in World War Bee has been to break up the Imperium, PAPI has failed in that regard. With the O-EIMK constellation appearing unassailable by PAPI, all the diplomacy or rhetoric in the galaxy is apparently not enough to break up the Imperium. This has caused many to think the Imperium is invincible. However, history tells us another story, one which PAPI should have paid attention to before they began this war.

The Abundance Age

Before the war, the situation in nullsec was fairly stale. The Imperium was not interested in a serious invasion in Drone Regions. The Imperium instead opted for harassment deployments with Liberty Squad and the Goonswarm Expeditionary Force. Legacy’s attempt at invading the Drone Regions saw a mass number of Legacy dreadnoughts vaporized by PanFam’s super fleet. With Eve bursting at the seams with the abundance of wealth and materials, large-scale coalition war was incredibly rare, simply because it was far more beneficial to stay home and make more money than it was to deploy. But before we get into the effects the Abundance Era had on the Imperium, let’s look at how many coalitions form.

How N+1 Happens

When a solo pilot encounters several people and loses, in many cases they realize that if he had some more friends they would have won. This idea scales from duo roaming, to gangs, to pick-up fleets, corporations, alliances, coalitions, and mega-coalitions such as PAPI. One of the advantages of banding together is obvious: increased safety.

Super-Capital Umbrella Safety

In order to avoid the fate of the Casino War from ever happening again, and to get revenge, the Imperium began building capitals and super-capitals at every opportunity. With soaring wealth, the alliance of a thousand stings quickly became the alliance of a thousand titans. In Delve, the Imperium opted for safety and solved most PvP problems with numbers and opulence, dumping billions of assets onto all threats, even small gangs, to discourage roaming in Delve.

While many are quick to point out that the Abundance Age was a serious boon to the Imperium, it was also the Imperium’s bane. With the major nullsec coalitions hiding under super-umbrellas, life for the average line-member was incredibly safe. So, if your goal was to krab, produce, or transport, life was pretty great. However, if your goal was to PvP, life was very boring. This reality hit the Imperium particularly hard during the Abundance Era. Deployments were very rare, and rarely involved the big toys (capitals and super-capitals). As a result, many players decided to go their own way.

The Consequences of Safety

We see high profile examples of the negative effects of safety. The Space Violence FC Kendarr left and formed Trigger Happy. Cainun, Thomas Lear, and Zed Starshine, FCs of Liberty Squad, also left to form Freight Train Diplomacy. Another example is the famous Pittsburgh2989, who, after being kicked from the Imperium, joined Kendarr in Trigger Happy. Even the famous Initiative FC Pandoralica was pushing to leave the Imperium to escape bloc warfare.

Despite becoming very rich and powerful, the Imperium was experiencing a very high turnover rate of FCs. These FCs sought a more exciting life outside super-capital umbrellas and coalitions, places where they could call the shots.

The Price of Threat

Although the Imperium gained a great deal of wealth and assets during the Abundance Era, it came at great cost. Before World War Bee, with many tired of safety and krabbing, it appeared that the Imperium was coming apart at the seams. PAPI came along and changed that. By turning “summer children,” as The Mittani calls them, into hardened war veterans, PAPI has removed any illusions of safety and forced a once-decadent Imperium to rise to the occasion. As more groups join the Imperium, such as Siberian Squads, and as Imperium members fight side by side as underdogs in this incredible war and strengthen their bonds, the Imperium continues to fight together as united allies. By not letting the Imperium break apart from decadence and safety, PAPI has not only failed in its goal of breaking up the Imperium, but instead has achieved the opposite.

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  • Guilford Australis

    PAPI is the best thing that ever happened to The Imperium. They set out to “exterminate” us and drive us out of the game, but they accidentally hardened us into a force capable of holding off a sad-sack coalition three times our size for over a year. They are completely impotent at this point, mumbling about “unified plans” that will be announced in the next month or two while they “theorycraft” frigate and destroyer doctrines with which they intend to counter supercapitals.

    I never imagined I could feel pity for PAPI, but somehow I do. They are so pathetic and so incapable of achieving any of their perpetually shifting goals that I actually pity them. I pity the line members who have stopped logging in because the Forever War is going nowhere and they know it. I pity the leaders who are failing in slow motion. I pity the doofuses who write comments on Reddit and articles for INN pretending they still believe this war is a success for PAPI.

    The war is an objective failure for PAPI. Their only lasting accomplishment is getting themselves trapped permanently in Delve because they’re unwilling to use supercapitals to finish what they started, and their dithering, incompetent leaders won’t leave without a victory they can’t achieve. They’re going to sit around in T5ZI forever as their participation numbers steadily decline, faffing about and farting out alliance Discord pings about some new plan they might reveal in the next year or two as they decide which gimmicky subcap doctrine might finally win the war for them.

    Meanwhile, The Imperium and the rest of EVE will continue pointing and laughing.

    July 20, 2021 at 1:27 PM
    • Moomin Amatin Guilford Australis

      A couple of week ago Vince and Gobbins both said that their respective alliances (NC and PH) were on a break for the summer. Now all of a sudden there is a super important “War Ending” reveal planned by PAPI leadership for the 24th of July 2021 (weird that I have to add a year to this date for clarity :-)). Now any reasonable person in PH or NC may be thinking “but you just told us we were on a break”.

      As part of the reveal Noraus, leader of Winter Co, has made a number of statements. “60 days” is a number touted. What the PAPI plan now is is still anyones guess. Previously they have pivotted as needs dictated and their membership followed willingly. This is becoming less the case as the PAPI leadership lies are exposed.

      The last couple of weeks have been hard for PAPI. The drama involving former “valued allies” and having so many leadership leaks relating to TAPI using Brave as a reason to start the war over a year ago. A plan that was hatched by Manfred Sideous, former storied member of PL until they joined TAPI some time ago. In fact some other details that came out also bring into question the way TAPI conducted themselves over the “Pittsburgh Incident”. One has to wonder now if that was all a tactic on the part of PAPI.

      I do not feel pity for anyone in PAPI though. They knew exactly what they were getting into. Here at INN we wrote the truth and was ignored and ridiculed. PAPI pilots knew what they were fighting for. They were fighting to exterminate the goons so that they could rent out nullsec.

      PAPI won the Casino War. Unlimited casino ISK and a massive head start at the end of the war for PAPI members. Imperium started again from scratch. 2 years later and PAPI are already grumbling that Goons are too big again. The reason for this? There are many, just ask yourself “where is all that rental isk?”.

      I so hope that this 60 day plan involves solid tidi the entire time with the bloodiest hellwar ever seen. Imperium is “all in”. I too am “all in”. Watching Legacy kill itself while its valued allies are already poking at what bit of the corpse they want is the best bit of this war to date.

      July 20, 2021 at 3:24 PM
    • “Holding off”? You lost 98% of your space, countless keepstars, trillions of assets in those keepstars.
      Imperiums greatest achievement is burying their victory condition “so low that just holding 1 constellation is a win”

      Your plan has been and continue to be “panfam must leave, they must”
      PAPI will decide when the war is over, till then only thing you can do is hide in your hole.

      July 20, 2021 at 4:45 PM
      • Guilford Australis Dripple

        Your original stated goal was to “exterminate” Goonswarm and drive us out of the game. How’s that working out for you?

        Our original stated goal was “staying alive.” That’s working out pretty well for us.

        And your own leaders have admitted that we are holding you off quite nicely in the territory we decided to keep. You’ve been repelled hundreds of times when your pathetic subcap fleets wandered in to try to contest our supercapitals because your leaders are too cowardly to use their own supers. All of your leaders have acknowledged there is no clear way forward for your coalition. You are our prisoners, locked up tightly in Delve and unable to leave because you can’t win.

        (Incidentally, you might note that when Keepstars remain undefended it’s generally an indication that the owners don’t care about them).

        July 20, 2021 at 5:30 PM
        • You didn’t care about M2 hellcamp.either? I remember Imperium just left, when first cyni Inhib onlined.
          How can you say it’s winning when you have lost all your space, sov and manufacturing industry is mothballed in waiting day that PAPI decides to leave.
          And so what? You survive this war? What stops PAPI from reassembling and coming back, the moment you have established any kind of infrastructure in Delve? You are gonna leave your shit again and go hide in 1DQ?
          Beside M2, which was PAPIs greatest mistake granted, how have you showed anyone “we are not worth invading again, because we have teeth”?

          July 21, 2021 at 8:34 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            Imperium took down the M2 hellcamp a couple of days before PAPI could online a system cyno jammer. So what you remember is different from what happened. Odd that.

            You admit we still have some space when you know we should have been in NPC Delve last October at the latest. Although in this comment you then state “no space”.

            Industry jobs in 1DQ have still been way higher than anywhere else. The market is well stocked and Imperium members are “pre-staged”.

            Things have got so bad now for PAPI they have called a “war ending” announcement for the 24th of July after stating just two weeks ago that they were on a break for a few months.

            The 1DQ woodchipper is ready to go and the reason, well the reason is the biggest mistake that PAPI made. They made this a war of extermination to stop goons from playing a spaceship video game. Goons like spaceship video games.

            All the time Imperium continue to build empires from ashes and to overtake those who claimed victory in the Caisno War they will always be fought. I have no problem with that. We prepared for it and this time all of New Eden gets to see what we have built. Well part of it at least. If PAPi decides to jump into 1DQ there is a chance we can see some more of it. I live in hope.

            July 21, 2021 at 11:06 PM
          • Deni'z von Meanace Dripple

            You responses sound like you trying to self excuse.

            July 22, 2021 at 12:39 AM
          • Sunken cost fallacy. He’s been duped by PAPI for so long that he can’t admit they’re wrong else he admits he wasted a year defending those losers.

            July 22, 2021 at 5:28 AM
          • Moomin Amatin Deni'z von Meanace

            Agreed, Imperium is not having to have a “war ending” announcement just 2 weeks after declaring a break for a couple of months. PAPI however is.

            We could easily dive into the excuses bit here but you know only too well that PAPI leadership have said a lot and delivered little. I wonder where they will move the goal posts this time. The one thing I do know is that they will not accept responsibility. Even when the words “an error was made” are spoken it is swiftly followed with “additional factors that created an unsustainable environment that were beyond our control and further proof of the totally unfair advantage the goons have”. 2 more days and we get to find out. I hope we are not all “disappointed”.

            July 22, 2021 at 7:54 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Dripple

            sov is literally meaningless since ihubs control everything. And industry is mothballed? Since fucking when? You haven’t killed the 1dq1 sotiyo’s and we can jump in whatever we want, you literally can’t shut our industry off without taking 1dq1.

            You keep waving all the wrong things in people’s faces to try and prove your point.

            “What stops PAPI from reassembling and coming back, the moment you have established any kind of infrastructure in Delve? You are gonna leave your shit again and go hide in 1DQ?” So is your plan to just do nothing in game ever again except camp goons? Doesn’t sound like much fun for your side, I wonder how long till everyone else quits and you’re the only one left…

            July 22, 2021 at 6:46 PM
      • Garreth Vlox Dripple

        “trillions of assets in those keepstars.”

        So uh, I don’t want to be a dick about this but um… you realize asset safety is a thing and none of those keeps went into abandoned mode right?

        July 20, 2021 at 7:20 PM
      • kwnyupstate . Dripple

        And PAPI lost more in assets thanks to M2. If you consider the real cost of titans now that loss is even more gigantic in fact now many months later you still can’t afford to SRP those titans. PAPI lost more including their self-esteem and will to fight as you guys can’t even manage to form up for even a single serious attempt at 1DQ.

        July 20, 2021 at 10:03 PM
        • Dripple kwnyupstate .

          Lost their will to fight? After M2 goons just left, they just left moment the cyni inhibitors were up.
          Beside slaughter of M2 armor timer, you achieved nothing.

          Making a capital attempt for 1DQ indeed did become increasingly expensive and most likely that being one reason, why PAPI leadership adjusted the warplan to current strangling.

          PAPI never lost their will to fight, it’s been Imperium who’s plan has been to hide in 1DQ and wishing “PANFAM must leave, they must”

          July 21, 2021 at 8:26 PM
          • Carvj94 Dripple

            Nevermind the fact that PAPI has been losing a vast majority of fights since their loss in M2 and are now on the defensive.

            July 21, 2021 at 10:31 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            NC lost 10% of their alliance membership and much of their US TZ capability through PAPI leaders being weak and not wanting to fight. You can hear them say this for themselves on Trash Talk Tuesday from just over a week ago. You really should check it out before posting again. Or I guess just post :-).

            July 21, 2021 at 11:12 PM
          • Novartis Dripple

            PAPI never lost the will to fight? Say that again after looking at your side fleet participation, and then try saying that again. Gimme something to believe that PAPI isn’t losing shit here.

            As far as I see now, it’s Imperium who withstood the bore to death strategy originally proposed by PAPI. Not so good eh?

            July 22, 2021 at 1:13 AM
          • Xelistren Dripple

            Actually the plan is “Lets grind up everything of sapi while they mistakenly follow their leaders egos.” You do realize that SRP rates give a far better indication of survival of a group in eve right. You can take all of the stations of the Imperium but as long as they can SRP ships right away and you can’t eventually you will be reduced to ashes first.

            July 22, 2021 at 8:48 AM
          • Garreth Vlox Dripple

            ” you achieved nothing.”

            you fed 500 ferox’s to “nothing” last week…

            July 22, 2021 at 6:47 PM
          • Zaand Dripple

            “Besides the most one-sided victory in gaming history, what did you accomplish?”

            That’s you. That’s what you sound like.

            July 24, 2021 at 5:55 PM
      • Carvj94 Dripple

        You might be surprised to hear that everyone else, including PAPI, understands that as long as Goons keep any system in Delve that the war isn’t won and they can’t walk away without losing literally all their progress. Besides that PAPI has lost most of the fights they’ve gotten into since January and Imperium members have gotten so board that they’ve apparently reinforced more structures than PAPI has in the last month lol. Goons haven’t been “contained” you dolt. They’ve been counter-attacking.

        July 20, 2021 at 10:07 PM
        • Dripple Carvj94

          Their counter-attack died when they didn’t show up for timers.
          They got things reinforced when half of the PAPI was in north ratting and having a break, PAPI showed up for the timers, goons didn’t.

          July 21, 2021 at 8:19 PM
          • Carvj94 Dripple

            Oh sure bud. It’s Goons that aren’t showing up for timers. That’s why PAPI advance has completely stopped for the last several months and they’ve made nearly 0 progress in accomplishing anything whatsoever.

            July 21, 2021 at 10:26 PM
    • Like for the first few months it looked like they were probably gonna give the Imperium the boot because they had every advantage except maybe caps. Then it started going downhill and their advanced slowed to a crawl for some reason. Likely boredom from grinding structures. We’re at the point where it’s clear they will never be able to finish off the Imperium by any stretch of the word. The only thing they’ve done in the past several months was lose the vast majority of fights that they’ve gotten into. As the war draws to a close the only thing people will remember is that PAPI would rather feed kills than give up.

      July 20, 2021 at 10:00 PM
  • Deni'z von Meanace

    Sort of bad news that Imp lost quite a number of their famous FC’s. This is the only mistake goons keep repeating through the years. While they declare that people is the core thing in alliance, it’s continues that very solid folks get pushed off the swarm.

    July 21, 2021 at 5:33 AM
    • Guilford Australis Deni'z von Meanace

      Pitts was the only one mentioned in the article who was “pushed off the swarm.” I flew many fleets with him and regret the stupid diplomacy faux-controversy that led to him getting kicked. Ironically, we cut loose one of our best FCs to avoid conflict with TEST, an alliance that later declared its intent to “exterminate” us and has been fighting us for a year alongside PanFam and others.

      Kendarr and the Liberty Squad bunch simply decided they were tired of big-bloc stuff and wanted to do something different. No one kicked them out the door.

      July 21, 2021 at 10:09 AM
      • Deni'z von Meanace Guilford Australis

        I didn’t say kicked, I’ve admit that Imp keep loosing really famous and odious FCs. Some of those been pushed by current alliance politics.

        July 22, 2021 at 12:44 AM
        • Romulus Loches Deni'z von Meanace

          The Imperium is a great place for new FCs to learn and grow, as well as a great place for large scale bloc warfare. This is because it has the organizational infrastructure and wealth to support those things. However, that can make it difficult for some FCs to really spread their wings and build up something small and new.

          July 22, 2021 at 2:37 PM
          • Xelistren Romulus Loches

            100% correct. The Imperium has the ability to build great FCs because they can take minor losses. This same ability is a double edged sword because it leaves a safety net that henders growth towards the prevention of loss. Basically The Imperium, just like Pantheon in EE, can see potential FCs start their journey towards being amazing FCs, however in the large scope few can reach this lofty goal simply because we have enough SRP to cover 3 to 5 years of heavy wartime losses.

            July 23, 2021 at 1:10 AM
          • Malcanis Romulus Loches

            Luckily, the Imperium includes INIT!

            July 24, 2021 at 11:41 AM
        • Elithiel en Gravonere Deni'z von Meanace

          Many of the FC’s that left us voluntarily, are back. Just sayin’…

          July 27, 2021 at 4:51 AM