April Monthly Economic Report – Diving into Numbers off the Beaten Path

Erick Asmock 2018-05-14

Header art by Empanada

Welcome to another fun episode of the EVE Online Monthly Economic Report. The April edition has a few gems hidden in it. This month we are going to take a look at Delve in comparison to other regions in New Eden.

EVE has many types of warfare. There is the in your face attack or the more annoying than anything “cloaky camping”. There’s faction warfare, declaring war, and the ever exciting freighter-ganking of the enemy’s high sec haulers.  But one of the more subtle forms of warfare in EVE Online is market warfare, and we’ve been watching this play out ever since Goons revived Delve. Anyone who rejoiced and thought Goons were dead because they didn’t fight to hold the North during the Casino War failed strategy and leadership 101. Of all the things I have seen in EVE Online, this was one of the more masterful strategies I have witnessed.

Enter Delve: a rich and relatively easy to conquer region. Let’s not forget there was a plan behind it all. There was an organization that knew how to adapt to new game mechanics. By forcing more people into a smaller area, CCP primed the pump for an economic powerhouse.

Those who were slow to adjust to the new meta of the market have been left in the dust. When you bring together specialists and give them the ability to do great things, great things happen.

ISK matters

The value of ISK and the size of your war chest matters. When you are at the point where your enemies are buying ships from you just to have ships to fight you with, it’s only a matter of time before they are drained of their wealth and you prevail.

If you are the type that goes about your day and ignores the meta you are missing the key part of what is making Delve a powerhouse.

Like Shakira’s hips, numbers don’t lie – or at least not the ones that are extracted correctly by CCP.

First We Crow

Here we take a look at Delve’s numbers for YTD 2018. Relying only on Delve metrics for Imperium numbers is imperfect since the Imperium also operates outside Delve. But nevertheless, they serve as a good bellwether as to what is going on inside the Imperium.

Here we compare key economic trends for Delve.

As we can see, the harassment of Delve miners and ratters hasn’t manifested into lost income in Delve. Losses are up slightly from the previous month but those are more than offset by the increases in ratting income alone. Mining is relatively flat.

When we look at April’s numbers in Delve on a 30-day average we see that an obvious trend has developed.

The total value of ships destroyed naturally includes enemies who have been killed by GSF forces – but let’s assume for argument’s sake that these are all GSF losses. In Delve, the total income is over 40 times the total losses. This might explain some of the ambivalence folks encounter when coming to Delve to “interrupt” the ISK making cycle or to voice the greatness of their kills in local.

Looking at the overall production in Delve relative to The Forge, we can see an exponential jump production numbers beginning in March. I’ll attribute this to Moon Mining and the unparalleled organizational skills of Goons. With this month’s increase in production and using  2018 YTD numbers, Delve now accounts for 18% of all production in EVE. The Forge has dropped to 16% YTD.

Deklein in Decline

Deklein, on the other hand, seems not to have fared quite so well. We can see a sometimes dramatic drop in all the key income-related factors. Coupled with increases in exports and value destroyed and you have the makings for an exodus and death.

 

Pure Blind’s Dramatic Fall

Like Deklein, Pure Blind has been in a free-fall for the last few months. The MER isn’t simply a report about economics in EVE Online. It is a source of intelligence that clearly describes the regional activity. Corporations and Alliances can say what they want in “private” conferences but the numbers do not lie.

Closing thoughts

Economics is a complicated art. There are myriad factors that influence it. One of these constant factors is that less safety means less economic output. This is as true in New Eden as it is in the real world. While some may like to think they are ravaging Delve, the numbers don’t show it.

The most interesting factor is The Forge’s drop in production. There is no clear reason. While I attribute moon mining and reacting to a significant increase in Delve activity, it isn’t clear why The Forge has suddenly dropped. EVE’s market is as much dependent on new players and player retention as anything in the game. If CCP hasn’t figured it out yet, they need to quickly. Nothing can crash a market-based game like lack of demand.

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Comments

  • Arrendis

    It’s even more significant than the single-region numbers initially make it seem. As you can see here, the Imperium-controlled regions of space (Delve, Querious, Fountain) are currently out-producing the entire Caldari State in terms of ISK creation (market trading creates no ISK, it simply moves it around). These numbers, obviously, don’t include destruction, but factoring ISK destruction into things accurately would require insurance information that CCP doesn’t currently release.

    Moreover, even in its sharp decline, Deklein and other regions controlled by GotG are still producing more ISK than either Gallente or Minmatar space—high-sec and low-sec combined—and Legacy space is outproducing all but the State. As things stand, if the Imperium were to see another two months of growth at the March rate (which may be partially due to a reporting improvement, rather than actual productivity gains), we may well be out-stripping all of Empire, combined, in terms of ISK generation.

    Two months more than that, and we’d be outproducing the rest of nullsec, combined.

    I don’t think that level of growth is likely, but if you look at the per-region averages, it’s pretty clear that even at the lower April growth figures, high/low security space simply isn’t where the money is right now.

    May 14, 2018 at 7:44 am
    • Erick Asmock Arrendis

      Great comments above…thanks for taking the time. Really good stuff!

      May 15, 2018 at 12:45 am
  • Rolfski

    You make it sound that it was all part of an evil masterplan from goons to purposely get kicked out of the North, which is just bullshit. They didn’t really defend it because it became painfully clear they simply couldn’t, too much opposition.

    Moving into Delve was nothing more than a Plan B once it became obvious that the so-called “reconquista” of the North was never going to happen. You can only get hell-camped in a single lowsec station for so long before your line members, used to vast mining/ratting grounds, start to complain and stop logging in altogether. Therefore nothing masterful about this Delve move, just an act of necessity. You’ve got to give it to them they made the best of it though.

    May 14, 2018 at 3:53 pm
    • Arrendis Rolfski

      If you mean this:
      Enter Delve: a rich and relatively easy to conquer region. Let’s not forget there was a plan behind it all. There was an organization that knew how to adapt to new game mechanics. By forcing more people into a smaller area, CCP primed the pump for an economic powerhouse.

      Then… no, there was never a ‘plan’ for Delve while we were in the north. But once it became clear we couldn’t retake the north, Plan B became more developed. That doesn’t mean we planned or anticipated the shape of things now, but the strategic isolation and ability to control access in/out of Delve, the relative ease of maintaining a smaller footprint, and the ability for defensive coverage were all understood ahead of time. Those factors simply got taken into account when it came time to figure the next move.

      Keep in mind, there had been attempts made to reduce the size of the Imperium’s footprint in the north, too. Not only had we sold off Fountain, and Delve (twice), but overtures were made toward a similar configuration in Deklein to what exists in Delve now: everyone in the coalition sharing the same space, with mutual mining and ratting rights throughout the region.

      Unfortunately, leadership in some alliances wanted to hold onto their own space. Maybe it was pride—wanting to keep their name on the map. Maybe they didn’t want to risk becoming more culturally homogenized. Certainly, some of the old CFC alliances maintained a more distinct difference in personality when compared to the more tightly-knit Imperium in the south*. Or maybe they just didn’t see the benefit of consolidation. Not everyone realized, right off, just how much population density would factor into defensive capability under Aegis.

      Whatever the reason, they didn’t want it, so it didn’t happen. And we’ve seen how that went. The inability to get critical mass of defensive entosisers from specific sov-holding alliances played a major role in the early stages war. The futility of defense in those first four months in PB/Fade, in turn, contributed significantly to later burnout among the FC corps.

      But while there wasn’t a plan to produce the current map, before everything in the north went to hell, it’s not accurate to say there weren’t plans. And the great thing about proper planning based on fundamental principles and practices is that it’s adaptable. Plans for the north could be modified for use in Delve.

      Up north, five years of slow accretion on infrastructure across half a dozen regions had become an obstacle to reorganizing under the new mechanics. In Delve, we could build specifically for the new mechanics, from the foundations up.

      May 14, 2018 at 6:03 pm
    • Erick Asmock Rolfski

      The intent was not to say there was a plan to leave Deklein and go to Delve. It was masterful to not defend Deklein any more than had already been done. It preserved dry powder, hardware and materials.

      The delay in moving to Delve was equally masterful as it let the Casino funded folk begin to turn on each other and be distracted.

      Then the plan for the exploitation of resources in Delve came to fruition.

      Turning an untenable and unwinnable situation into what had happened in Delve with the Imperium is nothing short of amazing.

      May 15, 2018 at 12:42 am
      • dragonshardz Erick Asmock

        Personally, I didn’t see much infighting in the MBC until after we’d settled down in Delve. But I do think that moving to Delve was the right move to let that fractious entity begin eating itself alive!

        May 15, 2018 at 3:03 am
        • Arrendis dragonshardz

          There was a bit of it. Darkness and Horde mostly. But whenever we’d get on-field to try to ‘help’ one side or the other, it was everybody v us.

          The real value in the delay (however unintentional it was) in realizing that we weren’t going to be able to retake Deklein… was it let them get settled. If the MBC entities had still been in an attack posture, instead of settling in and prepping to play defense against our reconquista… they probably would’ve chased us to Delve, and we might not have survived that.

          The lesson here: never kick people when they’re down. When they’re down, your attacks should be far more final.

          May 15, 2018 at 6:33 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            There was no way MBC would ever have chased goons all the way down to Delve:
            1. Too much hassle as a move op.
            2. Newly conquered space needed to be settled in
            3. Goons kicked out: Mission accomplished. MBC was not designed to last any longer. It would break up and reset friendlies after the North was conquered.

            May 15, 2018 at 12:41 pm
          • Lekly Rolfski

            There was a call to pursue goons to Delve and keep them in LS or disband, but it failed because of the reasons you state.

            May 15, 2018 at 4:41 pm
          • Rolfski Lekly

            That call was never taken really seriously by most MBC members: You simply can’t “destroy” an entity in-game that has its roots outside of it.

            May 16, 2018 at 1:20 am
          • Lekly Rolfski

            Wow… well if we are going to the, “That wasn’t serious” game.

            Goons never took the war seriously, as proof we never escalated to supers. We had been trying to consolidate the north for a while, as seen by selling off Fountain, and this just gave us an excuse.

            The real truth is that Mittens and Lenny Kravitz cooked the whole idea up while yachting. With the publicity from the war, they made millions with their sites and cashed everything out.

            May 16, 2018 at 1:58 am
          • Rolfski Lekly

            “Not escalating into supers” doesn’t mean you take a fight seriously. It means you;re not willing to commit because you’re afraid you’re going to loose. Which is exactly what happened in WWBee.

            And I’m sure Mittens and Kravitz discussed how to get him banned during this yachting.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:09 am
          • Lekly Rolfski

            The scary thing is, I don’t know if you are being serious with your reply just now. If you didn’t catch my tone, I was trolling you and being fairly sarcastic. The claim of not being serious is laughably inaccurate.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:16 am
          • Rolfski Lekly

            Don’t worry, we all know goons have taken their humiliating defeat in WWBee way too seriously since then.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:32 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Yup. Being ganged up on by the entire rest of the game, bankrolled by the predators exploiting tens of thousands of peoples’ gambling habits, totally humiliating.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:43 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            The biggest bully in the game getting bullied was simply nothing short of humiliating and goons’ ridiculous obsession since then to “get even” only proves that.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:52 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Biggest bully in the game… that’s actually pretty rich. Tell me, how many wars of aggression had we launched in the 3 years between Fountain and our eviction? I’m just curious if you know.

            As for ‘nothing short of humiliating’… you certainly seem to think so. But you know, for it to be humiliating, we’d have to think so, wouldn’t we? I promise, none of our hate is close to that new.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:54 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            I’d say the Viceroy program that completely backfired on goons and preluded this war, is the very definition of being the bully in this game.

            And you can be sure that the humiliation of WWBee was totally felt within goons. When you basically forbid you’re own line members to go on reddit because the goon memes are too overwhelming to take in, you just KNOW the shame of defeat is widely felt.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:10 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            I’d say the Viceroy program that completely backfired on goons and preluded this war, is the very definition of being the bully in this game.

            You mean the program where we went looking for people willing to opt-in and then we’d install them someplace?

            Because it’s really funny, the way NCPL is currently running exactly that in Deklein and Branch. GotG gotta pay them rents, yo. But we’re the bullies, for never actually installing anyone like that. 😉

            And no, the line members were never forbidden from going on reddit, just like Sion never told people they weren’t ‘allowed’ to write shit for other websites. But it’s really cute that people still believe shit like that.

            And really. How would we even do that? Forbid them to go on reddit? When you can just make a reddit account in two minutes and shitpost all you want with nobody able to catch you? What would even be the point?

            May 16, 2018 at 3:13 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            What programs NCPL are running atm is irrelevant for this discussion. Nobody suggested they are more holy than goons.

            And goons line members were DEFINITELY advised not to go on the eve subreddit during WWBee, but instead advised to check the goon-controlled subreddit, which was just hilarious. Or this site, which did an absolutely horrible job of covering WWBee btw.

            May 16, 2018 at 4:45 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Imperium line members were totally told that leadership suggested using the other subreddit. But… and I hate to keep harping on this… that’s not what you said.

            You said “When you basically forbid you’re own line members to go on reddit“. Nobody was forbidden from doing anything. Nobody was even told going to reddit was a bad idea. A suggestion to go to a less shit-infested subreddit was made, but it’s not like there was any threats of punishment for going to /r/EVE

            And ‘forbid’ pretty strongly implies exactly that. You don’t forbid something and say ‘and if you do it absolutely nothing bad will happen to you‘. That’s not forbidding, that’s… I don’t even know what that is.

            And no, nobody was told they couldn’t write for other sites. Not even people on staff here. In fact, we had a set of articles planned to do joint writing/posting here and CZ… and then CZ decided they were gonna run the first one a day before the agreed-on publication date. If they weren’t gonna make a deal in good faith, we weren’t gonna be part of the deal.

            And yes, the coverage here was a bit light. Most of the staff were busy being involved, and that left little time to whip the writers to produce. Activity cycles like that happen. That wasn’t the only lull we’ve had, and it won’t be the last. We’re kinda in one right now, too… would you like to claim we’re currently butthurt about players from certain countries on the Eurasian land mass not being able to reliably connect? Maybe we’re really upset about NCdot deploying to Gehi and getting their asses kicked nightly?

            Tell you what: When we can afford to pay our writers a living wage, so this can be their actual job? We won’t have these lulls. I hope.

            May 16, 2018 at 4:56 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            I said “basically forbidden”. Get some sense of context please and stop circlejerking.

            And some stuff was actually forbidden. TMC staff was not allowed to use “WWBee”, but instead was forced for quite a while to use “War of Sovless Agression” in their articles. Which was downright hilarious.

            And saying that “coverage was a bit light” during WWBee is quite an understatement. But by then I had already accepted that the original plans for this site to become a serious independent gaming news site had been thrown overboard.

            May 16, 2018 at 5:37 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Yes, the TMC staff was directed to use a specific term to refer to the war. All 8 writers. That’s a rather far cry from forbidding the line members to go on Reddit. Stop setting up straw men to claim you were totally arguing against the first time. You weren’t. You were wrong, you got called on it. That’s not ‘circlejerking’, that’s not letting you weasel around and try to claim you were saying something you weren’t.

            Deal with it.

            May 16, 2018 at 6:04 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            Of course you can not forbid line members to go on reddit, it was very strongly suggested though. Hence the term “basically forbidden”. I was being sarcastic here.

            May 16, 2018 at 6:21 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            ‘Very strongly suggested’… so, it was a suggestion. What made it ‘strong’? Was there some emphasis? Some ‘It would be really really bad if you went to reddit’?

            May 16, 2018 at 6:28 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            You know the answer to that question, you were there.

            May 16, 2018 at 6:37 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            No, I don’t. Because I don’t know what you mean by ‘strongly’ suggested. It was suggested. I have no idea what you think makes it a strong suggestion vs a ‘hey, guys, /r/eve is moderated by people who hate you, why give them the satisfaction of shitting on you?’

            You’re making a claim. I’m asking you to support your claim. Stop evading.

            May 16, 2018 at 7:15 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            You should have watched the Meta shows during that time. They were always ranting how horrible r/eve was and that goons should not go there.
            The fact that they hilariously made a separate, goon-controlled subredddit for their people to go, to speaks for itself.

            May 16, 2018 at 1:09 pm
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            /r/eve is horrible, and nobody who doesn’t want to wallow in absolute shit should ever go there. It’s a fetid cesspit of rancid dog shit, and has been more or less for as long as it’s existed.

            But that doesn’t clear up what makes the suggestion ‘strongly’ suggested. That Mittens said it with his own mouth? So what? Alex is just one dude. He’s entitled to having opinions, just like everyone else.

            May 16, 2018 at 4:59 pm
          • Lekly Rolfski

            What are you talking about? You are the one who brought it all up.

            You’re acting like someone at a class reunion who let themselves go but needs to bring up that they and their gang beat up their high school rival that one time. Meanwhile, the conversation was about how that ‘rival’ really stayed in shape and is doing really well.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:47 am
          • Rolfski Lekly

            The writer of this article brought this all up, not me. I’m just filtering out the propaganda trash that typically goes with these low-effort INN pieces.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:59 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            You should check your snark detector on that second bit again.

            And yes, we took the war seriously, up until M-O, when it because clear there was no way to win. We gave the reconquista a shot, but… by then, no, we weren’t really taking it seriously. We knew the overall shape of how it would play out, as long as the MBC had us nearby to unify over.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:18 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            Fact of the matter is, goons are taking this whole WWBee defeat way too seriously to this very day. The amount of butt-hurt and salty goons comments you typically get in discussions like this is simply unreal. I’m not even kidding.

            Not to mention, this whole “revenge” notion goons seem to be completely obsessed by, even 3 years after WWBee, is just too obvious to ignore.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:30 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Not to mention, this whole “revenge” notion goons seem to be completely obsessed by, even 3 years after WWBee, is just too obvious to ignore.

            See, this is where you’re wrong.

            That grudge is far more long-standing, and the war we lost in the north is just one of many skirmishes in the war. Look a decade earlier for the beginnings.

            The game is just a game. Our people, though? They’re not a game. And it’s not a game when others try to hurt them, to constantly mock and belittle them, to insist that they are bad human beings because of the badge they wear in a game.

            And yes, that happens. That happens every. Single. Day. And we take that very, very seriously. So where you see salt, we see hate. And it will never go away.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:48 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            You just proved my point.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:56 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Really? I just proved that we take the game too seriously? Because my whole point is fuck the game. A guy takes a baseball bat to my kid sister, I’m not taking baseball seriously when I fuck his shit up, you know?

            It’s not their in-game behavior that drives this. It’s not ‘you blew my shit up’. That’s a fucking game. It’s when people insist ‘you’re a goon, so you’re a piece of shit offline, too’ that I take seriously, and they do that. They’ve done that to me. They’ve done that to people I fly with. They’ve done that to people who tried the game out for a month and never came back, just because when they tried it out, they were with us (and that was just in TNT).

            May 16, 2018 at 3:01 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Also, as an aside, if you want to make judgments about ‘even 3 years after’… you should probably wait until, you know, 3 years after. The war starts with the IWI/SMA fallout in October of 2015, after we’d spent a month entosising PB on our own to hand it back and forth, then did a week of entosis in Provi in August, then did another month of handing Pure Blind back and force between SMA, TNT, GSF, TNT, and… LAWN? I think that might’ve only been in discussions…

            And then it ends with us leaving in June of 2016. So we’re not even at ‘2 years after’, just yet. Soooo… you might wanna rethink undercutting the authoritativeness of your positions by being demonstrably wrong.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:59 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Well, (2) is exactly my point: the smaller MBC members were looking to settle into the ‘rich’ space of the north. Of course, they failed to understand that what had made that space such a source of income was the focus the inhabitants placed on making money.

            And (3) is just a failure of politics. Multiple leaders and prominent personalities in the MBC had stated their goals went far beyond eviction. The whole ‘never allowed to form more than 200 people again’ meme, ‘we exist to destroy Goons’, and other lovely bits of agitprop were shown to be empty and hollow without the casino money backing them. If they’d been given the same money to attack NCPL or the DRF, it seems likely they’d have taken it.

            As for (1)… that’s entirely because (as noted) they’d started to settle in. You can say it was ‘too much hassle as a move op’, but Horde had already moved up from Querious. GotG as well. NCPL had assets in the south that could’ve been used for staging (towers etc IN Delve). As long as you keep your people ready to be mobile, and in the mindset of ‘we are attacking, and we will keep attacking until the foe is dead’, they’ll give chase. They’ll remain nimble. But when you give them the chance to start putting down roots, they suddenly *don’t want* to keep moving.

            May 15, 2018 at 6:31 pm
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            This whole notion of “destroying goons” was just a myth nobody in MBC ever took really seriously and if anything, more a way of scaring the heck out of their enemies. In that sense it apparently worked.

            Most members in MBC were smart enough to recognize that “destroying” an alliance that has its roots outside of the game is a near impossible thing to do. Not to mention that everybody needs bad guys to play the good guys. Goons = content back in the days and MBC members knew this all too well.

            As for move ops, doing it twice in a short time, only to chase some alliance that was already defeated, just doesn’t make any sense. Especially when you have new space to settle in. Alliances like Horde, who just moved out of the South, were never going to call out to their line members to move again.

            May 16, 2018 at 1:16 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            This whole notion of “destroying goons” was just a myth nobody in MBC ever took really seriously

            You say this, but actual conversations with members of the MBC alliances in the immediate aftermath say otherwise. There were quite a few who insisted we could never recover, and we were finished. NCPL dread caches in NPC Delve and The Culture (whose main corp is now in PL—really demonstrating the ‘breakup of the MBC’ there) in Fountain would deal the final blow.

            About the only thing that made them madder than the idea that we were, in fact, doing fine and had made a strategic decision early in the war to preserve our line members’ wealth and assets like the supercapital fleet (because there was no way to win the war, and no point losing our space AND our supercapitals) was thanking them for giving us the impetus to consolidate the coalition structure and shift to a more compact, unified economic model…

            … which, you know, is exactly what’s producing the massive economic boom in Delve: population density, not absolute population. There’s people nearby to save tackled miners/ratters.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:06 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            Line members were promised a glorious “Reconquista”. That obviously didn’t work out, which lead them to not much choice but sitting this whole shitfest out and going along with a retreat op.

            And believe me, most MBC members were smart enough to figure that a goons fail-cascading stood little chance and wasn’t really in their interest for reasons I mentioned.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:19 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Nah, they had plenty of choices. For example: Not everyone left FCON or RZR, now did they? Dreddit, as you know, is always recruiting. Plenty of other groups would’ve welcomed members, too.

            And believe me, most MBC members were smart enough to figure that a goons fail-cascading stood little chance and wasn’t really in their interest for reasons I mentioned.

            You can have your conjecture all you like. I have the actual conversations I had with members of Horde, NC, PL (Yes, even PL members), MC, Culture, TISHU, GotG, OSS, and many, many more. The evidence says what you ‘know’ is wrong.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:23 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            You can surely bet that plenty would have eventually chosen the “Dreddit” option if goons would have hung on to their delirious “reconquista” idea any longer.

            And catching up a few heated goon conversations doesn’t mean anything about the real decision making within MBC

            May 16, 2018 at 2:39 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            And catching up a few heated goon conversations doesn’t mean anything about the real decision making within MBC

            Except we weren’t talking about ‘the real decision-making within MBC’, now were we? We were talking about the average line member. I don’t talk to the people who run those alliances… well, I used to talk to Sort, but then a thing happened with someone else and he doesn’t speak to anyone at INN anymore… (:shrug:). So I wouldn’t be commenting on the ‘real decision-making’, now would I?

            I was talking about what the average member believed. You know, exactly the same thing you’re saying you know. And I’m basing my statements on what they said. Again, and again, in ever more vitriolic and rabid ways.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:51 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            We were talking about goons fearing to get chased all the way down to Delve. That was never going to happen because the people in control wouldn’t allow it

            May 16, 2018 at 3:15 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Nope. We were talking about…

            This whole notion of “destroying goons” was just a myth nobody in MBC ever took really seriously and if anything, more a way of scaring the heck out of them. In that sense it apparently worked.

            Most members in MBC were smart enough to recognize that “destroying” an alliance that has its roots outside of the game is a near impossible thing to do.

            … what “most members in MBC” believed.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:17 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            I actually believe that most MBC members never believed in the notion of “destroying goons”, even if they wanted to. Even if you’re uninformed on the matter you would understand that it would simply be way too much work.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:45 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Again: You can believe what you want. Actual discussions with MBC line members shows something very different.

            So you can choose to go with unfounded belief based on what you think people ‘would understand’.

            I’ll go with the data over conjecture, thanks.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:47 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            Your “actual discussions” show nothing, nada. If you would have the average MBC member choose between hunting a goons ghost allover the map or settle down in his newly acquired spoils of war, he would simply choose the latter.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:59 am
          • Lekly Rolfski

            Except when those “average MBC member[s]” were asked, they chose the former. As those actual discussions can show because they have probably been logged. But you know better because of your non-alliance self with a masterful spy network.

            May 16, 2018 at 4:03 am
          • Arrendis Lekly

            It’s impossible to actually prove, really. Even were I to produce chatlogs, they’re textfiles. Any moron with a keyboard can fake them.

            May 16, 2018 at 4:05 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            People can believe everything, in the end its the reality of the situation what counts.

            As a Dreddit member you can meme the heck out of “goons failcascading” on reddit, hoping/believing it becomes a reality, but if you finally find your home in nullsec again after all those years, then that is simply what you’re going for at the end of the day.

            May 16, 2018 at 4:38 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Except that, again, isn’t what was claimed.

            I said they expressed a belief that the job would get finished, that groups like the famously-nomadic Pandemic Legion, or nearby allies The-Culture would keep the pressure on.

            You made a claim about what they believed, not what they’d choose for their own course.

            May 16, 2018 at 4:04 am
        • Rolfski dragonshardz

          MBC “eating itself” was always the plan. It was a one-off coalition that would break up after the job done and would go on to their daily business of shooting each other.

          May 15, 2018 at 12:51 pm
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Only parts of it. Specifically, TEST.

            Look at the rest of the landscape even after we went to Delve. MC and NC fight much? Horde and GotG sparred a bit, but there wasn’t any real bite to it, and as soon as either was threatened, they solidified into a unified whole again. And TEST only came in as an afterthought, to get better space.

            The idea that the MBC was designed to break up again is just one of the lies they fed to their membership. It wasn’t, and largely, it hasn’t. The core parts of the MBC were PanFam, GotG, and TISHU. And they’re still acting in mutual defense.

            They’re not a tight-knit coalition, but PL deployments, NC deployments, etc etc… it’s all functionally no different from Razor going to do something without the rest of the CFC, in years past.

            May 15, 2018 at 6:36 pm
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            MBC was a Lenny Kravitz’s sponsored initiative that would go on as long as it was funded, nothing more, nothing less. It didn’t change any alliances that were there before WWBee, like Panfam.

            May 16, 2018 at 12:52 am
          • Lekly Rolfski

            Panfam didn’t exist as it does today until MBC brought them together. Literally your example shows the exact opposite.

            May 16, 2018 at 1:01 am
          • Rolfski Lekly

            PL and NC. were already bound to kick some goons ass after both loosing the war before WWBee. It was just not advertised as such.

            May 16, 2018 at 1:27 am
          • Lekly Rolfski

            They weren’t “Panfam”. People have common enemies all the time, they don’t always become a new coalition from it. Arrendis’ comment about MBC still stands.

            May 16, 2018 at 1:45 am
          • Rolfski Lekly

            As I said, they weren’t advertised as such, but definitely already allied before WWBee.

            May 16, 2018 at 1:52 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            MBC was a label applied to the group Lenny’s money brought together, as orchestrated by a number of people, including Suas, whose OSS alliance was left fallow again after the war so he could set up shop first in CO2 and then in Mercenary Coalition.

            Nor were GotG as solidly in the ‘PanFam Pets’ category beforehand… not by any means.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:00 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            GotG is not Panfam, not then and not now.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:48 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Right now, NCdot has dropped a keepstar to move supers into Pure Blind to defend GotG. GotG reportedly pays a portion of their alliances’ income to NCdot as rent. Pandemic Horde, after relocating to Venal, has started deploying south again to defend GotG.

            No, they’re not PanFam. They’re pets.

            Which is what I called them.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:50 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            Nobody cares what you call them. They’re allies from a different coalition.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:54 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            If nobody cares, why’d you object?

            The whole coalition is NCdot renters and pets.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:55 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            I just remind you that GotG is considered a different coalition in the game and that your opinion on it is therefore irrelevant.

            Beside that, we were discussing the alliance situation before/during WWBee and a single coalition outside MBC was definitely not the case back then.

            May 16, 2018 at 4:04 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            but the MBC was never ‘a single coalition’, either. At no point were the many groups that made up the MBC all using shared comms and all pooling resources, staging, and leadership. They’d coordinate their targets, and certain members of each group had direct contact with members of the rest of the groups, but DnG was never on GotG comms, never lent one of their FCs to running a PL fleet, etc.

            May 16, 2018 at 4:08 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            MBC could be considered a one-off/temporary coalition: alliances working (loosely) together towards the same goal, sharing the same funds, the same logo and heck, even naming themselves a coalition.

            May 16, 2018 at 4:30 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Except they didn’t share the same funds. They each got paid by Lenny, but once they had the money, there was no sharing. PL never gave their spare cash to TEST to fund better ships, GotG never got an extra few hundred billion from TISHU.

            And they only used ‘the same logo’ on… wait, they didn’t. The logo got used occasionally for CZ articles about the MBC, but none of the actual alliances involved adopted it on their own propaganda. None of them released statements as the MBC.

            May 16, 2018 at 4:47 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            “Each got paid by Lenny” There you have it.

            If people are calling themselves coalition and basically act like one then yes, you could call them a coalition.

            May 16, 2018 at 4:56 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            That’s only ‘sharing’ the funds if they actually share the funds. If Lenny’s just paying them out and then the funds remain isolated, that’s not sharing the funds.

            I don’t share my paycheck with my co-workers just because the same company issues all the checks. That’s patently ridiculous to even claim.

            And they weren’t acting like a coalition. They were acting like loosely allied groups. Emphasis on ‘loosely’. Do you think GotG doesn’t have a single commsystem they use for coalition fleets? Do you think the Imperium doesn’t? Do NC and PL only communicate by a couple of dudes chatting in a discord text channel?

            If reddit decides to name a giant, seedless plantain ‘Apple’, it’s still a goddamned banana.

            May 16, 2018 at 5:00 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            You’re circlejerking in technicalities here and steering way off the real discussion.
            Feel free to call both GotG and MBC whatever you want but everybody will call them a coalition, so better get used to it.

            May 16, 2018 at 5:17 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Everyone else can be wrong all they fucking like, it won’t make them right. You listed some criteria. I demonstrated that they didn’t actually meet those criteria. I can’t help it if you don’t like saying shit and having it shown to be wrong.

            May 16, 2018 at 5:19 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            Or they can be right and you just refuse to acknowledge it (hint: they are right)

            May 16, 2018 at 6:16 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            As right as the red round thing being a banana is right.

            May 16, 2018 at 6:30 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            Whatever

            May 16, 2018 at 6:34 am
          • Lekly Rolfski

            Wait, so “They’re allies from a different coalition”, “that would break up after the job done and would go on to their daily business of shooting each other”? Except that in itself is a contradiction. You are contradicting yourself.

            May 16, 2018 at 4:01 am
          • Rolfski Lekly

            Nope, some stayed allied after WWBee (Panfam GotG), some not (Panfam Test, CO2).

            May 16, 2018 at 4:07 am
          • dragonshardz Rolfski

            Yes, the MBC was always going to eat itself, we knew that from day 1. What we underestimated was the coalition’s ability to maintain cohesion while under external pressure (read: the Reconquista).

            However, our victory condition was “surviving the invasion” – which we did – while the MBC’s victory condition was not *just* kicking us out of Deklien, but crushing us beyond any ability to recover and pose a threat to the NC/PL renter empire. The MBC collapsed into bluetral infighting almost as soon as we announced our extraction from Saranen, proceeding to evict both TEST and CO2 from their wartime gains and the space they presumably were promised would remain theirs, respectively. That quick turn from presenting a cohesive, united force to fight the Imperium to evicting members of the MBC to make space for renters and serfs was proof to many that you cannot trust NC/PL to keep their word.

            May 26, 2018 at 8:53 am
    • dragonshardz Rolfski

      You’re reading an intent into the article which is simply not present. The Imperium had the organizational prowess to adapt and overcome the adversity of having the rest of the game allied against them and working together to prevent meaningful progress in reclaiming the North. We were never hellcamped into Saranen, as the mechanics of lowsec preclude hellcamping – you can’t wrap a lowsec station in bubbles to prevent all escape!

      Moving to Delve was Plan A when it became clear that remaining in the North provided the MBC an external enemy against which they could unite, and that that unity would prevent us from making meaningful, lasting progress in reconquering the North to provide the necessary tax income to support the coalition and its services (SRP, infrastructure, etc.).

      The mastery in the move to Delve is in the rapid execution of the move and the mobilization of the coalition into offensive rather than defensive war, followed by the months of placing fresh and efficient infrastructure into the region.

      May 15, 2018 at 3:02 am
      • Rolfski dragonshardz

        Saranen was basically a hell-camp, there’s simply no other word for it when titans are literally sniping you off at your doorstep on a daily base.

        Goons had literally nowhere to go than moving out of the North and thus admitting defeat. Nothing mastery about that, just a though decision they had to make and couldn’t postpone any longer.

        May 15, 2018 at 10:00 am
        • Lekly Rolfski

          You don’t understand what a hell-camp is then, it’s a more narrowly defined term than you think.

          It is when you literally can’t undock and warp off because bit of the station is bubbled and there is an active fleet on the undock. It’s not that you have a fight on your hands almost right away from a couple of t3ds and the threat of a lone titan doing a drive-by. Goons could move in and out of the station whenever they wanted for the most part, thus not a ‘Hell-camp’.

          May 15, 2018 at 4:38 pm
          • Rolfski Lekly

            You’re using definition technicalities as an excuse to hide the fact that goons were literally cornered in the North. The only way out for them was admitting defeat and licking their wounds somewhere far away from MBC.

            May 16, 2018 at 12:35 am
          • Lekly Rolfski

            No, we are all saying that goons couldn’t beat MBC and went to Delve. We are saying that goons specifically chose Delve though which was then the plan.

            May 16, 2018 at 12:41 am
          • Rolfski Lekly

            Goons were beaten by MBC and being homeless as a result, needed to move to another system, you mean.

            May 16, 2018 at 1:49 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Goons were beaten by MBC and homeless as a result, and needing to move to another region, chose Delve and made plans for how best to proceed, well in advance of actually leaving Saranen.

            May 16, 2018 at 1:58 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            Of course they planned the move to Delve, as every alliance with that many members simply would do. But doesn’t make it any genius master stroke, like the writer of this article wants you to believe.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:23 am
          • Lekly Rolfski

            Ah yes, your alliance is so much better off than goons these days. Your power base is much stronger, better defense, more active industry. Month after month the MER shows the region(s) you control to be doing more economically. Cause you know, since goons LOST and managed to end up in their current situation in Delve, that was pure chance.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:32 am
          • Rolfski Lekly

            Now you sound salty and who says I’m in an alliance?

            May 16, 2018 at 3:38 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            I notice you don’t have any pithy responses to the clarifications on what is and isn’t being taken seriously.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:43 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            Goons are obsessed with their defeat in WWBee, that’s for sure.

            May 16, 2018 at 4:49 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            I dunno, the one obsessed with it here seems to be you.

            May 16, 2018 at 5:00 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            As I said, I’m just filtering out the propaganda trash/spin, which really degenerates a lot of the otherwise fine articles on this site btw.

            May 16, 2018 at 5:42 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            And introducing plenty of your own. If you want to filter shit out, stick to being right.

            May 16, 2018 at 6:05 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            “Right” in the eyes of a goon is a very strange kind of right in my experience. The typical of “if you’re not for us, you’re against us” kind of right.

            May 16, 2018 at 6:28 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            And now we’re back to out-of-game attacks on people because of their in-game tag. If you’re a goon, you must be a liar, is that it? Because that’s the sentiment you convey with that kind of shit.

            May 16, 2018 at 6:32 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            Dude, “us against the rest” is what you literally highly cultivate yourself: “Become harmonious” and all that crap. The scary part is when you actually run into brainwashed goons that believe in all that crap. And believe me, I have.

            May 16, 2018 at 6:42 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Sure, in-game. Or do you think I shit on my writers who aren’t in Goons? Jurius might be surprised by that, he’s one of my direct reports. Did I suddenly decide to hate Dirk McGirk when he was in PL? If so, I think it’d be news to both of us.

            There will always be people who over-identify with a group. There will always be people who can’t make the distinction between in-game interactions and out of game interactions. Just like there will always be people who will start a fucking riot because their soccer team lost or it’s any given Sunday during football season and the Raiders are playing.

            But shit like you’re pulling with the ‘in the eyes of a goon’ is what creates the siege mentality. Are there people in PL I can’t fucking stand and wouldn’t piss on if they were on fire in the street? Yup. Is everyone in PL on that list? Hell no. And I don’t go around saying ‘oh, well, you’re in PL so you must be…’

            And if I did? That wouldn’t be ok. That would be fucking despicable bullshit where one person does something you don’t like in a game, so you go and smear a whole group of people as RL horrible people, liars, cheats, thieves, and even criminals. That’s not ok.

            So why the fuck is it ok to pull that shit on us?

            May 16, 2018 at 7:25 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            I’m not pulling any shit on you, I’m pulling from my own experience. Some people have problems putting stuff into perspective and are taking all this spin crap way too seriously. It’s a problem you see with other games as well btw.

            May 16, 2018 at 1:37 pm
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Really? So you only see it from goons in all these games?

            Or was there some other reason you were singling us out for that criticism?

            May 16, 2018 at 5:13 pm
          • Rhivre Arrendis

            So what you are saying Arrendis is, you secretly hate me. I am a very sad panda.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:45 pm
          • Lekly Rolfski

            Oh but you know the inner workings of the leaders on MBC as it was happening. You are highly connected obviously. The average member wasn’t privy to the intel you had.

            Your spy network not only infiltrated Goons to know that they weren’t planning but you had spies in all of the MBC alliances cause you knew what their line members didn’t.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:48 am
          • Rolfski Lekly

            You’d be surprised how much you get to know by just following the Eve news.

            May 16, 2018 at 4:47 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            You’d be surprised how much you get wrong, on most sites.

            May 16, 2018 at 5:01 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            Deduction my friend, reading inbetween all the spin talk isn’t all that hard tbh.

            May 16, 2018 at 5:45 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Then why do you keep insisting on being so wrong?

            May 16, 2018 at 6:06 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            I could ask the same to you.

            May 16, 2018 at 6:31 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            You could, but you’d look more foolish than you already do.

            May 16, 2018 at 6:33 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            Your circle jerking is what makes you foolish atm.

            May 16, 2018 at 6:44 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            You dorealize that to be a circle jerk, there’d have to be at least three of us jerking one another off, right? As it is, I’m not even pullin’ a Stranger here.

            May 16, 2018 at 7:28 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            Here you go again. And no, you don’t have to be with three in the context of circle jerking in discussions.

            May 16, 2018 at 1:40 pm
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            You gotta have a circle, man. One dude ain’t a circle, it’s just a guy you don’t seem to be able to get around.

            May 16, 2018 at 5:14 pm
        • Arrendis Rolfski

          I have to agree with Lekly: Saranen was in no way a hellcamp. We were more than capable of moving assets in and out more or less whenever we wanted. As for the cap fleets ‘sniping you off at your very doorstep’… they learned pretty quick to run the hell away when the hurricanes undocked if they didn’t want to lose a few billion in faxes in exchange for 300M in battlecruisers, huh?

          May 15, 2018 at 6:42 pm
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            If your average line member can’t form anything but an interceptor as a fleet it’s safe to say you’re hell-camped.

            May 16, 2018 at 12:23 am
          • Lekly Rolfski

            We used a lot more than interceptors. As Arrendis stated, we undocked hurricanes regularly and cleared everything off-grid multiple times a day. That’s not even a successful camp, let alone a hell-camp.

            May 16, 2018 at 12:49 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Yeah, it would be. Of course, our average line member was never reduced to interceptors. The only time we used interceptor fleets at all was for killing subcap hackers, and that was because they were able to move around freely and quickly in null, where T3Ds would be hampered by bubbles.

            But, you know, what would I know about what doctrines we used, I only run the fitting team, right? 😉

            May 16, 2018 at 1:56 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            You’re missing the point. Sword fleets was basically the only thing goons could fly back then without getting horribly dunked.
            They were nothing more than outgunned and outnumbered.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:45 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Except, you know… they weren’t. That is the point. We introduced the Sandycanes then. We introduced Grindrs then. We flew all of them whenever we wanted to.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:52 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            Goons couldn’t form any serious fleet at some point and line member participation was plummeting to dangerous levels. The whole “Reconquista” became a joke and goons where forced to find another home. Simple as that.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:19 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Tell that to the caps that got killed in Okagaiken at the low point of our participation numbers.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:22 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            It was simply a shadow of what goons hoped to form at the start of the war.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:24 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Participation numbers dropped, yes. There were a number of reasons for this, including ‘holy shit, we’d been doing constant entosis warfare in pure blind (mostly on OURSELVES) for A YEAR at that point.

            But… and this is one of those minor points I know you might overlook… AS YOU TELL ME WE COULD ONLY FLY INTERCEPTORS AND I SAY WE WERE NOT FLYING INTERCEPTORS WHEN WE DROPPED MEGATHRONS ON CAPS IN OKAGAIKEN, SUDDENLY TRYING TO PIVOT AND GO ‘BUT YOU HAD LOWER NUMBERS THAN YOU DID IN MARCH!!!’ DOES NOT PROVE YOU RIGHT IT ONLY MAKES YOU LOOK EVASIVE

            Ok?

            May 16, 2018 at 3:27 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            You can shout what you want but goons were flying mostly Swordfleets at some point and for a very good reason: They were simply losing their battles and couldn’t escalate into supers anymore without losing them.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:36 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Goons were mostly flying swordfleets at some point. You are completely correct there.

            You are completely incorrect when you claim to know the reason. The reason was simple: Use the right tool for the job. If you’re trying to hunt entosisers, you don’t send battlecruisers to chase covops and recons around. We know. We tried that, months earlier.

            Didn’t work.

            And that has nothing to do with losing fights. You just can’t chase them around when they go running 5-6 systems and you can’t keep up.

            HOWEVER.

            goons were flying mostly Swordfleets at some point

            This is not what anyone was arguing against. Lemme remind you:

            If your average line member can’t form anything but an interceptor as a fleet it’s safe to say you’re hell-camped

            There is a world of difference between ‘flying mostly swordfleets’ because that’s the right tool for the job and ‘can’t form anything but interceptors’.

            And trying to cast us as disagreeing with anything other that what we were actually responding to doesn’t make you right, either.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:42 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            Goons WERE basically hell-camped, there’s no better word for it, even if it doesn’t fit your technical definition.
            Line members definitely felt they were hell-camped as they simply couldn’t undock on their own without serious risk, except for being in an interceptor.

            And it’s not only about entosis. Sooner or later you run into regular battles that goons simply couldn’t escalate while the opposition could. That they managed to get their Hurricane fleets out a few times doesn’t change that. So yes, they were basically forced into Swordfleets only and used them for far more than just entosis.

            May 16, 2018 at 6:05 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Right, right, so that red roundish thing, that’s basically a banana, even if it doesn’t fit the technical definition?

            Either it’s a hell-camp, or it’s not.

            And no, we didn’t use the Swordfleets for anything but harassing entosisers. There’s no point in using a Swordfleet for anything else, it can’t do anything else. It was literally a purpose-built doctrine that was more or less incapable of wiping its own ass at anything else.

            It was designed that way. The more common alternative to Sandycanes was Caracals. Which were designed as a kiting doctrine, but they could brawl a bit, so the skirmish commanders used them to brawl, and lost them. A lot. Which is why the Swordfleet was explicitly designed to be absolutely terrible at everything but what it was supposed to get used for: so it wouldn’t get used for that.

            Holy hell, I was on over 100 fleets each month during that war, I think I know what the hell I was flying. And Swords don’t have logi, so I wasn’t going on them.

            May 16, 2018 at 6:10 am
          • Lekly Arrendis

            Woohoo logi!

            May 16, 2018 at 6:20 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            It’s hellcamp in my book for sure.

            And there’s a lot of point in using Sword fleets for other stuff than entosis, they’re fine general trolling machines. Ask DaBigRedBoat, he was using them daily.

            May 16, 2018 at 6:53 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Yes, he was using them daily. No, you clearly have no idea what he was using them for.

            And your book might want to reconsider its definition for a hell-camp, because a hellcamp involves bubbles and 23.5/7 coverage. It’s a hellcamp, not a ‘we sit on the undock for a few hours and hope they don’t have an insta-undock’. The entire point is that nothing gets out… thus, the bubbles. If you’d like, you can go ahead and ask Boat if it’s even possible to hellcamp in lowsec, since he defined the term.

            May 16, 2018 at 7:31 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            I saw what he was using him for with my own eyes and he was definitely not using them for entosis only. In fact, Sword fleets weren’t all that effective the way he was using them: Picking off a few loners here and there, avoiding any engagement. Not even enough to be a real nuisance.

            And as I said, it’s a hellcamp in my book (but you can call it a variant if you need to be so nazi about it) when the average line member FEELS stucked (whether he is really trapped is irrelevant) and unable to do anything when logging in. It generates the very same effect, which is what counts here: People stop logging in altogether and participation plummets to unsustainable levels. It’s exactly this hellcamp effect that forced goons to retreat from the North.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:01 pm
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            And as I said, it’s a hellcamp in my book (but you can call it a variant if you need to be so nazi about it) when the average line member FEELS stucked (whether he is really trapped is irrelevant) and unable to do anything when logging in.

            So now you’re a mind-reader, knowing how the ‘average line member’ felt, even though Lekly, who’s not leadership at all, is providing you with evidence that you’re wrong?

            Is this like your claims about what you’re sure the average line member of the MBC ‘knew’?

            May 16, 2018 at 5:16 pm
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            When suddenly you’re stuck to a single, miserable lowsec station with nowhere to rat/mine/move really safe, believe me, that DOES feel very limited.

            May 17, 2018 at 2:32 pm
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            And there’s a world of difference between ‘limited’ (and even ‘very limited’) and ‘unable to do anything when logging in’.

            Many of us set up our PvE alts in j-space, in what we were calling ‘bear holes’… literally wormholes (usually C4 w/a C5 static) to go carebearing. It was openly recommended.

            May 17, 2018 at 6:23 pm
          • Lekly Arrendis

            That’s what my corp did except we didn’t use alts, cause we weren’t stuck in a station and it was easy to go back and forth as needed.

            May 18, 2018 at 3:10 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            “Many of us set up our PvE alts in j-space”
            Exactly this proves my point. People couldn’t do enough stuff anymore with their main and were forced to fall back on alts. Saranen simply was a miserable shithole that people didn’t want to spend their time in the game in, which just was an unsustainable situation.

            May 18, 2018 at 12:02 pm
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            So. “stuck to a single, miserable lowsec station with nowhere to rat/mine/move” is suddenly synonymous with “not stuck in the station, with places where you can rat and mine”.

            It’s amazing how the exact opposite of your claim keeps ‘proving’ your point. Almost like you have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about.

            May 21, 2018 at 4:06 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            No opposite claims here: As I said before, Sarranen was definitely a place where you could not rat/mine whatsoever and goons were basically stuck there. You very well know it but you just don’t want to admit it.

            Your endless circlejerking on the matter simply won’t change that.

            May 23, 2018 at 10:28 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            You really like to trot out the ‘circlejerk’ line like you’re actually using it properly, you know that?

            You said:
            when the average line member FEELS stucked (whether he is really trapped is irrelevant) and unable to do anything when logging in.

            And then I demonstrated that the average line member could do plenty, if they wanted to. So you moved the goalposts. Suddenly, it’s all about their main. Like we all PvE on our fleet PvP accounts. You know what? A few people do. Most don’t. If we were doing PvE on that account, we’d have to stop to go on fleets.

            I think even a casual look at the number of carrier ratters that used to die in Deklein during fleets should demonstrate the sheer level of wrong you are. But no no, you go ahead. Claim that there was no opposite claim when you straight up said ‘unable to do anything when logging in’ and then claimed that people being able to do things while logged in on alts “proves” your point.

            You are only making yourself look more and more like an idiot. And every time you trot out that weak-ass ‘circlejerk’ bullshit to claim one pedantic asshole tearing you up by pointing out the blatant contradictions in your own statements is a circlejerk.

            A circlejerk requires multiple participants. That’s what makes it a circlejerk. It’s not one person walking in a circle while he jerks it. Get a fucking clue. Or don’t. Feel free to keep being an idiot and getting things blatantly, visibly wrong. God knows I’m enough of a pedantic ass that I’ll keep doing this until your fingers fall off. I enjoy it. Do you?

            May 24, 2018 at 2:53 am
          • Havish Montak Rolfski

            The average line member came to me and said, “Havish, when are you taking a fleet bro, we want kills!!!” I would eat some food grab a drink and ping. 2 – 3 fleets a night.

            May 18, 2018 at 11:19 am
          • Lekly Rolfski

            You don’t get to make up new definitions for preexisting terms. Boat is the one who made up the term hellcamp to describe a nullsec station that is completely bubbled and has an active camp on the undock 23.5/7. Now, if you’d like to describe a lowsec station that is occasionally camped and call it a heck-camp or something, go ahead. But a hellcamp is something that is already defined so don’t use it incorrectly unless you want someone to correct you.

            Also, log in numbers were up during the war. Personally that was some of the most fun I’ve had in Eve. So speaking as someone who was in it as a line member to someone who apparently isn’t even in an alliance that took part, you’re wrong.

            May 16, 2018 at 8:45 pm
          • Rolfski Lekly

            I don’t care what someone else’s technical, narrow definition of hellcamp is. The effect is the same: People feel stuck and too limited in what they can do when logging in, so they stop logging in altogether. You can be pretty sure this was a major, if not the biggest reason, why goons were forced to retreat from the North altogether.

            May 17, 2018 at 2:38 pm
          • Lekly Rolfski

            That is simply wrong. We’ve already shown that we weren’t stuck in the station. Oh, and average participation per person was actually up pretty high during the war.

            And if you can’t follow basic language rules, I’m going to interrupt the meaning of your sentences in the future to actually mean, “I’m super jealous of Goons awesomeness.”

            May 18, 2018 at 3:08 am
          • Rolfski Lekly

            Goons WERE basically stucked in Saranen. There was nothing there for the average line member to do than joining an occasional Sword fleet that accomplished nothing.

            Participation DID become a problem. People want to rat/mine or they stop logging in, which especially becomes an issue when the far majority of your alliance are just carebears.

            May 18, 2018 at 11:54 am
          • Lekly Rolfski

            I know we are great but you really don’t need to flatter us so much. Just because you can’t get past any of the recruiters isn’t a reason to be so jealous. Even though you are starved for content, I’m sure we will get around to shooting you too if you ever decide to join an alliance.

            May 18, 2018 at 4:02 pm
          • Rolfski Lekly

            Now you sound like a 13 year old that tries to figure out how to troll people.

            May 23, 2018 at 10:59 am
          • Havish Montak Rolfski

            Goons went to Delve because it was better ratting ground and we kicked out an Alliance that was on “the list” for taking an RMT contract to fight us. Your big MBC coalition decided to let LUMPY fight the onslaught alone and they died. Enemy 1 dealt with. Then CO2 got annihilated. Then The Culture. Now GOTG is being pressured into dust. PL cannot fight Test as we are ready to dunk them. NC is not undocking or leaving assets available to be shot. MC is where/who?The war never finished in my eyes or most of the guys I fly with daily. It was only the beginning. Delve is a war machine and we will have our Revenge in this pod or the next.

            May 18, 2018 at 11:18 am
          • Rolfski Havish Montak

            Exactly my point, goons are still salt af while there rest of Eve has long moved on.

            May 18, 2018 at 11:46 am
          • Havish Montak Rolfski

            Dude AU and EU TZ undocked at will. I never lost a ship on the undock and went ratting in the belts. I can’t speak for US cos I didn’t fly then. There wasn’t 24 hour coverage of the station cos when you came in sniping nados I formed and blapped them in ceptors or caracals. Usually ceptors so we could tackle everything and ensure the max number of kills.

            May 18, 2018 at 11:10 am
          • Havish Montak Arrendis

            Arrendis, you forgot that I was talking 250 man fleets to enemy home territory and killing ratters all day long. These ratters were usually carriers and the defence force was blapped too. That was the basis of the Welp Squad mantra forming. Use frigs and inties to kill caps. Who needs caps when you kill them in 20 mill ships. Plus it involved pressing more than just F1.

            May 18, 2018 at 11:06 am
          • Lekly Rolfski

            This statement is just false.
            Sandycanes: https://br.inyour.space/?s=1442&b=7055880&e=90&t=ubqb
            It took me about 30 seconds to find this BR from my personal zkill. Note, this was near the end of the war shortly before we moved to Delve.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:24 am
          • Rolfski Lekly

            There was actually a hick-up at some point in the war from MBC side to finish the job. After renewed fundings rolled in from Kravitz it was soon over though. An incidental hurricane fleet did’t change any of that.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:31 am
          • Lekly Rolfski

            Holy shit, you have an excuse for everything. You make a comment, we show proof that it’s wrong, you make up an excuse. I’m just waiting for, “The dog ate my proof” or, “I don’t need evidence cause everyone knows…”

            May 16, 2018 at 3:42 am
          • Rolfski Lekly

            There’s hardly any overwhelming direct proof for anything in this discussion. At least I try to argument my points. Something that can’t be said of yours.

            May 16, 2018 at 4:52 am
          • Lekly Rolfski

            No you don’t, that’s my point. You make claims and then qualify them when you can’t defend them properly.

            May 16, 2018 at 4:56 am
          • Rolfski Lekly

            if you read this whole piece there is definitely more argumentation from my side than from yours.

            May 16, 2018 at 5:24 am
        • Havish Montak Rolfski

          Where were the titans? I certainly saw none and if I had they would be dead. Even your tethered carriers on that Fort outside the station were getting nuked by cane fleets. I led over 300 fleets that year and not one was annihilated and I killed at least 5-8 bill per fleet. It got stupid and boring. Enemy tries to bait, I took bait, killed bait, killed trap, killed ratters and miners, killed response force. You reshipped with RMT isk and we started all over. Thanks for the green killboards btw.

          May 18, 2018 at 11:00 am
          • Rolfski Havish Montak

            Look up Fastest Titan of the North

            May 18, 2018 at 11:05 am
        • dragonshardz Rolfski

          Hellcamps are not just having Titans shoot the unprepared and unwary. Hellcamps are when you cannot undock, in any number, without dying horribly.

          Saranen was camped. Not hellcamped. It’s a distinct difference.

          May 26, 2018 at 8:45 am
    • Alot Rolfski

      Ah yes, the difference between the Batman Gambit and the Joker Gambit – as anyone who’s lost their soul to tvtropes will tell you.

      May 16, 2018 at 2:11 pm
  • Pherocks

    It will take much more effort if another “WWB” would ever be created.

    Imperium is pooping out so much industry that it dwarfs every other coaliton in the game combined.

    Delve is the best thing that ever happened to Imperium as they trimmed all the dead weight like Fcon / Razor / Spacemonkey etc etc.

    To put it in words: Goonswarm has never been stronger then they are now and its scary as skill injectors means even 1 week old characters could just boost themselves into faxes and other shit.

    The wealth that is gained on a weekly base puts every other coalition to shame.
    And without any info and just using common sense, is that Imperium has by far the largest super capital fleet ever seen in Eve Online by a massive margin.

    Casino income is gone, every alliance that ever picks up their shield and sword is going to be thrown out on a wooden plank and losses absorbed are doing much more damage then it would against Imperium.

    Unless you see 90% isk effiency on a constand base but goodluck with that when a super capital battle breaks out and 500+ Faxes undock repping their fort under the cover of 1500 / 2000 Imperium pilots.

    Unless major changes are comming to Eve Online i would asume Imperium has won Eve as none are able to kick them out of Delve before they go flat on their face their backs broken and finance looking like a bum on the streeth begging for a penny.

    May 15, 2018 at 10:42 am
  • Frans Bovens

    When current sov mechanisms and plans for mining shere introduced good old sion saw within minutes the implications, that was years ago. So delve as big plan in big war wasnt planned, but the implications where clear from day one. Single systems can support tons of people, or be developed. If u map resources, sov and such in delve, combine it with good logistics then u got the current situation. Adapt or die

    May 15, 2018 at 12:29 pm
  • Lekly

    Your memory of how things went is a little compressed. The losing of the north, while relatively quick, still took a fair amount of time. Goons couldn’t have held onto the north under the pressure, no one could with those odds. The point is that in realizing this, goons made the best of things. And that plan to move to Delve ended up being masterful for the economics shown in the article.

    And goons did stage from 93PI for a while, hence why there are still supers trapped there 😛

    May 15, 2018 at 4:48 pm
    • Rolfski Lekly

      The writer of this article suggests that retreating to Delve was some genius master ninja move, planned all along. It really was not.

      May 16, 2018 at 12:44 am
      • Lekly Rolfski

        Arrendis already addressed this statement in much better terms than I ever could. I suggest going back and rereading the response. http://disq.us/p/1si7dyq

        May 16, 2018 at 12:53 am
        • Rolfski Lekly

          That indeed was a much better response and totally the opposite of what the writer of this article was suggesting, who apparently had no clue about what was going on in WWBee.

          May 16, 2018 at 1:56 am
          • Lekly Rolfski

            This article wasn’t about the war at all and never said anything about it other than the move to Delve was planned. You are the one that has gone off on this tangent saying things that are just wrong. This isn’t propaganda, it’s a fact based article about the MER with a specific look at Delve (where goons live) compared to other regions.

            May 16, 2018 at 2:10 am
          • Rolfski Lekly

            The article clearly suggested the Delve move was some ingeniously planned master stroke. It simply was not. It was just goons getting kicked out of their home and needing to find another one.

            May 16, 2018 at 3:52 am
          • Lekly Rolfski

            Where? Let’s get this down, quote the sentence/section that you feel clearly states that opinion. And don’t just say it’s the whole thing or a wishy-washy sense you get because you say, “The article clearly suggested…”

            May 16, 2018 at 3:57 am
          • Rolfski Lekly

            “But one of the more subtle forms of warfare in EVE Online is
            market warfare, and we’ve been watching this play out ever since Goons
            revived Delve. Anyone who rejoiced and thought Goons were dead because
            they didn’t fight to hold the North during the Casino War failed
            strategy and leadership 101. Of all the things I have seen in
            EVE Online, this was one of the more masterful strategies I have
            witnessed.
            Enter Delve: a rich and relatively easy to conquer region. Let’s not forget there was a plan behind it all.”

            Using market warfare, defeat in the North, “masterful strategies”, Delve, “a plan behind it all” in one go, definitely suggests more than there is.
            Firstly, the connection with WWBee is irrelevant here. Secondly carebearing the heck out of Delve isn’t all that “masterful”. Goon were always a carebear organisation and their retreat to the relatively safe riches of the deep South only attracted even more carebears.

            May 16, 2018 at 4:26 am
          • Lekly Rolfski

            “Anyone who rejoiced and thought Goons were dead because they didn’t fight to hold the North during the Casino War failed strategy and leadership 101.” To dumb this down for you, it’s saying that Goons losing the north didn’t mean they were going to fail cascade.

            “Of all the things I have seen in EVE Online, this was one of the more masterful strategies I have witnessed.” This translates to; After losing the north, choosing to move to Delve was the best plan and turned out wonderfully.

            “Enter Delve: a rich and relatively easy to conquer region. Let’s not forget there was a plan behind it all.” And this says; Goons thought about other regions and what they had to offer but came up with a better plan, Delve.

            I’m glad you say, “the connection with WWBee is irrelevant here” because that was never a focus of the article, just a frame of reference when setting the scene. And “carebearing the heck out of Delve” is what has allowed Delve to YTD c for 18% of production in Eve. And that IS the point of this article.

            May 16, 2018 at 4:52 am
          • Rolfski Lekly

            Carebearing Delve isn’t simply all that “masterful” and definitely not some high brow strategy. Every alliance and his mother had already figured out that the new ADM system required you to hold space that you actually exploit. CCP literally explained the idea behind this system. It’s not some secret, magic goon trick that the writer definitely suggest with his tone of voice.

            Goons output is excessive simply because they have by far the most people and live in a rich region. Nothing masterful about that.

            May 16, 2018 at 5:08 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Actually, Goons’ output is excessive because we’re doing it, and because we put in the time and effort to make doing it reasonably safe.

            Compare our standard response to a tackled Rorqual to PL’s.

            Ours: Rorq lights cyno in standing fleet, lets people know what’s happening, and supers and faxes jump in.

            PL’s: Mock the guy and tell him to stop fucking up or get the hell out (at least, according to what Grath said on Open Comms this past weekend).

            Which of those do you think promotes more adoption of the desired behavior (ie: mining)?

            May 16, 2018 at 5:13 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            Goons are definitely the carebear alliance here, which of course attracts even more carebears. I’m glad you’re proud of it as I can imagine PL members being equally proud of NOT being in a carebear allaince

            May 16, 2018 at 5:22 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Why wouldn’t we be? For such a ‘carebear’ alliance, we certainly seem to be doing fine, and not running away from TEST just because they gave us a dirty look.

            May 16, 2018 at 6:05 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            Each their own I guess. Problem with carebear alliances of course is people logging in for carebearing-only, but that’s a whole different discussion.

            May 16, 2018 at 6:12 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            And that’s why there are those participation metrics everyone’s mocked us over for years. Gosh, they’ve certainly been proven to be totally useless and make people not want to stay, huh?

            May 16, 2018 at 6:31 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            Partcipation metricsand pap links is one thing, general fighting spirit is an entirely different thing altogether.

            May 16, 2018 at 6:33 am
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            Ok, so now it’s not “people logging in for carebearing-only” but “general fighting spirit”? Which is what, if it’s not willingness to login and jump into fleets? Do you think people got into fleet and were morose on comms?

            May 16, 2018 at 7:17 am
          • Rolfski Arrendis

            Forcing people to go into stratops that couldn’t care less and only joined goons for mining/ratting, will only get you so far when it comes to building an experienced, motivated fighting force to defend your home/invade others.
            Not to mention that there’s little motivation for talented FC’s to stick with goons. They’re far better off joining Initiative/Snuffed Out or heck, even join their enemies and actually see regular,
            real fighting.
            Becoming a dedicated carebear alliance tends to make you forget how to fight in this game over time. Which can have dangerous consequences once people decide to invade into your home, as we’ve seen in many examples.

            May 16, 2018 at 1:29 pm
          • Arrendis Rolfski

            ‘Forcing’? Do we put guns to their head to make them login? You really do have a very skewed understanding of what participation metrics do, don’t you?

            They’re not a stick. They’re a carrot. They let people quantify their contributions. For every time I’ve heard a guy in Karmafleet say ‘ok, I got my one pap for the month’, there’s been multiple SNOOObies in the fleet who’ve responded by laughing and saying something along the lines of ‘Slacker. I’ve got a dozen so far’.

            Put in a way to measure output in any context, and it will become a leaderboard, with people looking to get to the top just because they want to be able to say they’re at the top.

            And if you don’t think there’s motivation for talented FCs to stick with goons, holy crap, should you spend time having to deal with our FC jabber channels. Is upwards of a dozen fleets a day not ‘regular’ enough fighting for you?

            Because, you know, clearly, we’ve forgotten how to fight in this game. That’s why we’ve pushed GotG so hard with just a tithe of our numbers that they’ve literally batphoned everyone they can to squat in Pure Blind and save them… while still completely shutting down NCdot’s efforts to stir shit up in Delve and Querious with… hang on, lemme check…

            12 stratops out of just Delve specifically to kick NCdot in the teeth yesterday alone.

            GOSH, we need to step that up, huh? How many fleets do you do a day? One every hour, on the hour?

            May 16, 2018 at 5:12 pm
          • Erick Asmock Lekly

            Exactly!

            May 17, 2018 at 1:15 am
          • Rhivre Rolfski

            Hi, I would like to interject here to ask about this. You keep using propaganda, which, is a topic of great interest to me. Propaganda implies that there is a direction from high up the food chain to put out information a certain way.

            So, my question is, who do you believe is directing articles that you think are propaganda. Do you think there is an editorial line that everyone must follow?

            May 17, 2018 at 4:08 am
          • Rolfski Rhivre

            No, I don’t believe in directives from above because they’re simply not necessary. Editors here will write up their goon spin/propaganda anyway, because this is in the end just a goon clan site. Nothing more unfortunately.

            Which is a shame really, because at the time when I was writing articles for this site there was actually a healthy ambition at some point to become a high quality, independent general gaming blog . But these plans have long been flushed down the toilet and independent, proper “journalism” has taken a deep nose dive since then.

            The most ironic part? This site started actually as a reaction to the highly biased news that you would find on sites like evenews24.com. But in the end is has turned out to be not much more than that.

            May 18, 2018 at 12:32 pm
          • Lekly Rolfski

            The truth comes out, you have a personal axe to grind with this site. Well I must say that since you haven’t even been able to comprehend the actual timeline (That the war was only 2 years ago not the 3 you’ve repeatedly stated despite being corrected) that I question the quality and accuracy of the articles you once wrote.

            May 18, 2018 at 3:55 pm
          • Erick Asmock Rolfski

            1 – I am not an editor.
            2 – I don’t spin propaganda.
            3 – You are welcome to come on my weekly show and we can debate it face to face. You’ll have to be civil, mind you.

            If anyone told me what to write or how to write it I would not be here. The sheer number of non-Imperium staff members pretty much ruins your argument. Amazingly, we all get along.

            May 18, 2018 at 5:14 pm
          • Rolfski Erick Asmock

            The fact that you’re not an editor is not an excuse for poor writing. Call it spin, propaganda or whatever you want: Your whole notion of some carefully planned evil genius master plan to not defend Deklein is suggestive bullshit at best. You get kicked-out, you find a new home. It’s simple as that in this game.

            May 23, 2018 at 10:52 am
          • Rhivre Rolfski

            I hope someone tells the Editor in chief that the editors are reworking articles for goon spin.

            May 18, 2018 at 8:51 pm
          • Rolfski Rhivre

            Aren’t you the editor in chief? If not, tell him this site could do a way, way better job in separating Eve news from Eve opinions/goons spin.

            That this site in the end is nothing more than a glorified clan outlet (hence the name ” Imperium News Network”), and as such will never really attract a wider writers profile, doesn’t mean you should no try to maintain proper journalism standards. It’s a shame really if you ask me, considering some write-ups aren’t really all that bad.

            May 23, 2018 at 10:41 am
          • Rhivre Rolfski

            Fuck me, you are still going.
            First up, your whole beef seems to be that Erick used the word plan in his article, rather than “Aryth played pin tail on the donkey to see where Imperium moved to, and it was pure chance that they went to Delve, god knows it could have been Everyshore instead”.

            This use of the word plan seems to have really bugged you for some reason, and only you. The whole 200+ comment thread (outdoing the seraph/moomin slapfest last year) is based around your dislike of that word.

            As has already been mentioned in this thread, if you would like to submit an article explaining why the article above is wrong, you are more than welcome to do so. As you apparently wrote for the previous incarnation of this site, you should be capable of dissecting the piece.

            Although, you also think I would not publish it, or that the goon editors on staff would overrule my pressing publish.

            So, let’s test that theory.

            May 23, 2018 at 2:58 pm
    • Rolfski Lekly

      You’re right, no one could have sustained that pressure.
      The move to Delve wasn’t all that “masterful” though. It’s simply the logic result if you need to find a new home for your alliance far away from MBC. That goons would carebear the heck out of it, wasn’t a surprise either. They were already doing that in Deklein.

      What could be considered surprising though (and definitely not planned for) was how much this ended up attracting even more carebears. Not even goons could have foreseen that there numbers would be trippled.

      May 17, 2018 at 3:16 pm
  • JN

    The economic values are interesting and all, but comparing how regions are doing is useless without knowing the number of toons involved generating the numbers. Naturally a region with a possible 30,000 toons is gonna produce more than a region with 2,000 toons. Go figure.

    May 15, 2018 at 6:48 pm
    • Erick Asmock JN

      Population only brings in the estimation of per capita values. Which I have discussed in previous columns on the MER.

      The point you missed is the region compared to the rest of EVE last month. 30,000 people are the number 1 producer in EVE. Delve produces 2% more than the long time champion The Forge YTD 2018.

      We try to look at the numbers from a different point each month.

      May 15, 2018 at 11:05 pm
  • Daito Endashi

    148 Comments
    > wtf

    May 16, 2018 at 8:46 am
    • Arrendis Daito Endashi

      I’M SHOOTIN’ FER OVER NINE THOUSAND!

      May 16, 2018 at 5:16 pm
      • Erick Asmock Arrendis

        Well, if you just did your responses in paragraphs rather than the, albeit beautiful, walls of text we might have had a shot!

        May 17, 2018 at 12:47 am
  • Alaric Faelen

    I’ll have to link this article the next time some high sec miner tells me that Eve would die and wouldn’t have any ships to fly if not for them. Bwahahaha

    May 16, 2018 at 1:25 pm
  • tedric

    Erick,

    Your graphs are informative considering the data available, but please consider changing the number format to something a little more readable, say Billions of isk.

    If you really want to make killer graphs have a look at “The Visual Display of Quantitative Information” by Edward R. Tufte. it is regarded as the definitive book on the subject.

    May 16, 2018 at 8:53 pm
    • Erick Asmock tedric

      Great Comment! I will do that. I am actually pulling from a database from the raw input from CCP. I should have thought about that!

      May 17, 2018 at 1:51 am
  • Erick Asmock

    Quit deciding words mean different things than they do.

    ” It was masterful to not defend Deklein any more than had already been done. It preserved dry powder, hardware and materials.”

    The choice was not to defend under a horrible SOV system that would wreck moral, funds and hardware. The choice was not to go try to retake Deklein and go do something better in a timeframe that was suited for success.

    I think the MER numbers and status of Delve bear out that conclusion…I mean…Unless you are going to argue the Imperium is in a destitute state and losing the game at all levels.

    You keep trying to cast it as defeat all around. It wasn’t. Deklein was lost but instead of fail cascading like most groups would Goons became the phoenix, rising greater and with more power.

    Nonetheless, it appears you have refilled the Well of Salt.

    May 17, 2018 at 1:14 am
    • Rolfski Erick Asmock

      Again, you make it sound if defending Deklein was a choice. It simply wasn’t, goons had no choice but moving out. Reconquering was impossible and they couldn’t stay in the North much longer.

      And if anyone has proved to be salty and butthurt over this time and time again since then, it’s definitely goons themselves. Even 3 years after WWBee, they’re still completely obsessed with this idea of “revenge”, while the rest of Eve has long moved on with their lives and the political landscape has long been reshaped.

      As for Delve, that move wasn’t all that masterful. Its just the logic result if you put the by far largest carebear-oriented alliance in the game in some deep, far away mining/ratting region. Of course its economic output will completely top others, which will attract even more carebears, etc. In the end it was nothing more than an economic shift grown out of necessity.

      May 17, 2018 at 3:02 pm
      • Lekly Rolfski

        We’ve been through this and you still can’t even get a basic timeline correct. The war was from November 2015 to July 2016. That’s not even 2 years from when it ended. If you are so knowledgeable from reading so many news sites, you should at least know that.

        And yeah, revenge is part of the game, it’s what makes it interesting. We aren’t interested in being everyone’s friends, that’s boring. So we choose our targets based on who we fought against, and you know, it’s been working quite well for us.

        May 18, 2018 at 3:47 am
        • Rolfski Lekly

          At least someone admits goons are salty af over WWBee

          May 18, 2018 at 11:42 am
  • Scythe_aka_Lurch

    these are rookie comment numbers we need to pump them up

    May 17, 2018 at 1:44 am
  • Total Newbie

    Arrendis wins is all I got out of this….. well that and the kool-aid drinking wannaberelevantnerds are…… dumb. As always blinding facts are just facts.

    May 17, 2018 at 2:00 am
  • Havish Montak

    It was a choice to let it burn and not even bother committing to hold it. We were outnumber 16000 – 4000 pilots in fleets. Remember that goons use multiple accounts, so that a 30,000 member alliance only has 6000 – 8000 players. I run 2 accounts with 3 characters and from what I here, that is a low number of accounts. We unanchored our stuff and moved it. The only loss was the fuel to get it to Delve and a few dumb supers who where killed using “exploits” like ECM burst to get them aggressed when tethered. I use the phrase exploit as CCP declared it such. The enemy didn’t get to dunk our titan fleet and no B-R happened even with CO2 and others abandoning or turning on us when we saved their stuff and protected their asses. Is it fun to fight and know you will lose due to servers dieing like in 9-4. No it is not. So Mittens decided to go somewhere and let things die down. Did you hear that our RL guys got the casinos shut down. The Imperium won the Casino War as your ISK faucet was closed and ours opened. Now we are hitting everyone on the list of traitors and people who took contracts from the RMT Casinos and no one has even bothered to name it as Goons are winning.

    BTW Rolfski, Karmafleet is recruiting, I know at least 3 players who had supers within 3 months of starting to play. You cannot manage that in any other place. You should also know fully fitted supers are under 20 bill now and fully fitted titans under 80 bill. I call that winning.

    May 18, 2018 at 12:09 pm
    • Rolfski Havish Montak

      If you were outnumbering 16000-4000, then why the heck did you get kicked out of Deklein in the first place? Maybe you should reread some of the AAR’s of WWBee.

      May 18, 2018 at 12:40 pm
      • Erick Asmock Rolfski

        Show a little common sense and kindness to someone that english is not their main language. It’s clear to anyone with a brain he meant Goons were outnumbered. Sheesh…

        May 18, 2018 at 5:08 pm
        • Moomin Amatin Erick Asmock

          Does Rolfski seem at all familiar to you in both writing style and the way that they formulate their arguments?

          I myself am waiting for Rolfski to start claiming some responsibility for “winning WWB” by flipping Co2.

          May 18, 2018 at 6:31 pm
        • Rolfski Erick Asmock

          There is simply no common sense if you claim that Deklein could be defended or reconquered. Goons tried that and it ultimately failed.

          May 23, 2018 at 10:56 am
  • Scythe_aka_Lurch

    its over 200

    May 19, 2018 at 2:10 pm