The Serenity Certainty

2021-04-06

Header Art by Redline XIII

This article directly responds to an article entitled “The Serenity Superstition,” by Seir Luciel, a frequent contributor to INN and a member of Pandemic Horde. This article, then, offers a counterpoint to the arguments made in “The Serenity Superstition.” Just for kicks, I’m putting this article in the form of a presentation to a jury, which I see as you, the reader.

First, the question before us is simple: Can the Tranquility server become another version of Serenity, in which a giant blue donut rules nullsec and results in stagnation?

Exhibit One: The Sov Map Right Now

I’ll start by saying that has already happened. Above is Exhibit 1. This is the null sov map dated March 29, 2021.  Everything in blue and purple (with minor exceptions) belong to PAPI. We have small pockets of gold and red and a little sliver that the Freemen still hold. That leaves very little sov space not currently controlled by PAPI.  So, should we fear that Tranquility will turn into Serenity?  That ship has sailed, people. It already has become Serenity2. The real question is: Is it too late to turn Serenity2 back into Tranquility again?

Seir Luciel has stated that to accept the proposition that Serenity2 will come upon us, we must accept three assumptions:

  • “The forces of PAPI wish to create this specter.
  • The forces of PAPI are able to create this specter.
  • The forces of PAPI would be able to maintain this specter, once created.”

Regarding the first and second bullets, these scenarios require no assumption at all on our part. They’ve already taken place.  I’m not sure what game my learned colleague has been playing recently, but PAPI not only wished to create a giant blue donut, they have already accomplished it; therefore, we have had nine months of a blue donut, which has gotten bigger and bigger over time, as PAPI has penned in Imperium and smashed other small groups like the Freemen of the North. 

So, we see from the evidence presented so far that the Serenity2 situation in our New Eden is not a “specter” or a ghost story. It’s a fact.  Therefore, the ONLY question left to answer is how long Tranquility will remain Serenity2.

Toward that end, let’s examine the question of how long Serenity2 might last.

Exhibit Two: Noraus Believes PAPI Will Stay Blue After the War

I present Exhibit2, a quote from Noraus, speaking on Talking in Stations, dated Feb. 6, 2021 (I will make slight changes to the transcript so that the text reads more grammatically; no substantive changes were made, but please, fact check me for yourself): “I believe there is no way to kill Goons. They will always come back at some point, somewhere. So, the PAPI coalition might persist longer than people [once] expected. Just to keep, [pause], not to make another mistake, [like] World Bee One. People [then] immediately [turned] on each other, and Goons [slipped] into Delve and [came] back and [came] back ever stronger. I don’t think PAPI would make that mistake again. They probably [will stay] united longer than people expect just to keep Goons in check, maybe.” 50:41 A bit later in the interview, Noraus says, “It’s the exact same group of people who organized World War Bee, except for me. I wasn’t in World Bee One. So, I think they have learned [from] their mistakes and probably won’t make them again.” 

Let’s unpack that. Noraus represents the WinterCo coalition, a very large group of people, many of whom have come from the Serenity server to the Tranquility server. When he speaks, he speaks for thousands. He’s the CEO of Fraternity, which has over 16,000 members. So, when he says PAPI “might persist longer than people expected,” we should pay heed. Note: in the context of the question, he’s referring to what will happen to PAPI after the war, so his response quoted above is not in regard to how long PAPI will stay together to fight the war, but how long PAPI will persist after the conflict is over. He believes, he says, that after the Casino War (what he refers to as World Bee One), those people fighting Goons made a mistake and immediately turned on each other. So, this time PAPI will not make that same mistake, clearly implying that after this world war, PAPI will not turn on each other as they did before. 

In response to a question about why PAPI might stay together, given the fact that Americans tend not to learn from their past mistakes, Noraus continues: “You have to understand, PAPI coalition [members] are from [a] very diverse demographic, so not everybody thinks the same way you [the question giver] might do. Even in the US. People DO learn from their mistakes. Even Goons do. That’s why they rebranded CFC into Imperium. . . .”  Again, Noraus’ views are clear.  He believes PAPI will last longer than people expect and that we cannot predict the future for Tranquility by judging from the past history of Tranquility. After all, he notes, he was not involved in the Casino War, but he is now involved in World War Bee and he intends for his voice to be heard. Therefore, to predict the future of Tranquility based on the past history of Tranquility is a mistake, because we have a much more diverse player base now and that player base includes Fraternity members, who have a different cultural mindset than others.

In response to another question regarding why Fraternity, who has fought multiple wars against Legacy, is now working with Legacy, we get this insight: “It’s the right way to work with TEST; it’s the most profitable way to do at [this] point.” 

We should not let that word “profitable” slip past us unawares.  Working with TEST, rather than fighting them, will increase FRT’s profit! It already has, as FRT has added Tribute and Vale of the Silent to their holdings during this conflict. Also, look at the most recent MER figures for ratting done by FRT in Vale.  It’s astronomical, especially in the era of the ESS.  But that’s what a group like FRT can accomplish when they are left alone and unhindered to do whatever it is they do up there.  It’s very profitable indeed for FRT to have joined PAPI because their partners are, among other things, no longer calling them out for botting.

Let’s sum up this point so far: Seir Luciel suggests in his article that “PAPI members are by no means a monolith; they are many different groups, with different goals, different playstyles, different aims. But it seems pretty certain that most PAPI members enjoy combat, warfare, and content too much to desire a situation that severely limits that aspect of play that so many members of PAPI play EVE for.”  He asks us to just trust that PAPI will break up after the war and go back to fighting, as they have done in the past, so that Tranquility won’t become Serenity2. However, he provides no evidence to support his view, but we are asked to take his conclusions on faith. On the other hand, I have provided evidence that one leader in PAPI completely contradicts Seir’s point. So, I ask you, whose voice is more credible regarding what is likely to happen in the future? Seir Luciel, or Noraus?

Exhibit 3: Matterall’s Warden System After the War

Let’s move on to Exhibit 3, quotes that come from an episode of Talking in Stations.  Matterall interviews RonUSMC and we get some real insights from these two popular streamers.  Rahne, a frequent commentator on TiS, asked RonUSMC about the win conditions for the current war. RonUSMC replied, ““The aim is to really beat Imperium down into our level again, right? So their power or their ability to make war cannot be what it was or what it is now.” 108:59 

Rahne: “How will you know when they are beaten down to your level again?”  

“Eh, we won’t. Maybe when they move to lowsec or Deklein or wherever and we see how much they have, but this won’t end until we know it’s complete, right?” 109:20.

Ron’s answer is very telling.  Regarding how PAPI will know when Imperium are sufficiently “beaten down” so that PAPI can call a halt to the conflict, Ron, a Legacy FC, sums it up in two words: “we won’t.” He creates an almost perfect blue donut circular argument: PAPI will last as long as it takes to make sure Imperium is sufficiently beaten down, but PAPI cannot know when that occurs, so must continue to beat down.  That’s a recipe for an ever-lasting war in one small section of the map while the rest of the map enjoys the prosperity only provided by . . . serenity.

This, our second confirmation that our current Serenity2 will last an indefinite amount of time, represents the thinking of several important and influential voices in the EVE-related media. While their views may or may not represent thousands of other voices, they do represent the thoughts of two media personalities who are involved in EVE daily. How will PAPI know when to stop? Ron: “We won’t.” 

Matterall picks up on this idea immediately following that stark comment.  He says, “I can’t stress enough how the world is totally changed and the aftermath of this war won’t look like anything we’ve seen before.” 109:41 “So, thinking in terms of the past, what happens after a war, people go back and do their thing; they either rent or farm or take over moons. None of that is gonna look the same. I think what you’ll see after this, Ron I want your take on this too, is wardens of areas that will essentially occupy an area, waiting for Imperium to surface, I think. So, you’ll have a Warden of the North, a Warden of the East, a couple Wardens of the South. I think that’s the kind of domination we’re gonna see. I wouldn’t necessarily call it a Blue Donut, but it’s going to be like Game of Thrones, where Imperium are the White Walkers and zombies and then you have the Wardens guarding different areas. And I kind of feel like that’s how the game is going to shape up after that. What do you think of that hot take?” 1:10:34

Ron: “I absolutely love it. We’re gonna have the Imperium watch.”

This exhibit needs very little gloss.  Matterall, a streamer for years, whose guest list is a Who’s Who of PAPI leadership and FCs, says “the world is totally changed and the aftermath of this war won’t look like anything we’ve seen before.” So, Matterall confirms what Noraus has already said. We cannot predict what will happen after this war by what has happened in Tranquility’s past. This “Warden” system Matterall discusses indicates that PAPI will stay united after the war.  After all, you cannot be a Warden of the North while fighting the Warden of the South. Goons would take advantage of the chaos to break free.  So, the entire Warden system is predicated on PAPI remaining on good terms with each other.  Matterall also says of this system, “I wouldn’t necessarily call it a Blue Donut” and yet, when he describes it, we see that’s exactly what it will be. And Ron’s reply is also telling, “I absolutely love it.” 

We have seen three things then, that take virtually no assumptions on our part. First, Serenity2 is already here and in full swing. Exhibit 1 displayed that clearly.  Second, we heard the evidence from Noraus (Exhibit 2) that PAPI may not break into separate parts after this war is over. And Matterall and RonUSMC (Exhibit 3) confirm that idea, especially Matterall.  While Matterall won’t “exactly” call it a Blue Donut, I will. If this war ends with the defeat of Imperium, our current Serenity2 server will remain blue.  Get used to it, nullsec people, and learn to enjoy small-scale skirmishes and pushing around the edges.  As Matterall says, “the world is totally changed.”  The way you have played EVE for almost two decades will no longer be here.

Now, you readers tell me all the ways I’m wrong. Strange to say, I really want to be wrong, because I don’t want this game to be taken over and turned into Serenity2.

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Comments

  • Moomin Amatin

    This war was started as The Imperium was too big. Was this too big by space controlled? Was this too big by super count? Was this too big by member characters?

    Here is the lie, out of the three blocs at the time The Imperium was the smallest in at least member count and space held. The size of the capital force is not known fully but during the battle of X47 The Imperium were slightly outnumbered by the super forces of PanFam.

    The stunning thing to me is that these lies persist despite the length of time “unbiased” parties have had to check them. Almost like they have an agenda right?

    April 6, 2021 at 8:49 AM
    • Alaric Faelen Moomin Amatin

      Too big in the MER. That is really at the core here. Space nerds want more stuff. The Imperium dominated the MER and then helicopter-dicked about it every month. The biggest target you can paint on your back is being the richest people in the game.Perhaps even moreso when you are that successful with less people and less space.

      Every step of a war is rooted in economics. Despite all the spin from both sides, this is a war for isk. Not the isk that Delve represents but the isk that forcing a rental empire system on sov represents. GSF is merely in the way of that donut being completed.

      April 6, 2021 at 1:33 PM
  • William Doe

    I really felt disgusted reading on how Matterall and Ron had to spin so fucking hard with the ASOIAF Wardens and equating the Imperium to White Walkers/The Others it’s reaching cognitive dissonance levels of delusion. If it’s anything it’s PAPI (mainly FRAT) who I see as the army of the undead (botters) marching from far up north wreaking havoc on the living in the south. Don’t even have to reference the Freemen of the North who fought bravely against the titanic wealth and numbers of the FRAT but inevitably lost.

    April 6, 2021 at 9:49 AM
    • Alaric Faelen William Doe

      Matterall is a insufferable idiot. He really thinks he is a luminary of Eve Online, but constantly proves he knows little of which he speaks. Most often he just reads something an actual smart person wrote then clings to that point as if he stumbled across some universal truth. We’ve all known that guy, the one that is convinced of his own intellect but everyone else just rolls their eyes at.

      April 6, 2021 at 1:28 PM
  • Eve_Osir1s

    As long as PAPI remains blue, Serenity 2.0 is now.

    April 6, 2021 at 10:35 AM
  • Alaric Faelen

    They don’t have to be technically ‘blue’, PAPI members are going to lock in NiPs and agreements not to escalate to capitals (lest any be lost).
    That means sov will be nothing more than a ‘fight club’ where fights are either staged, or just insignificant roams jumping on the occasional ratter. But the days of sov warfare end when and if GSF loses their space. It’s all pretend fighting from here with no fear of losing space or fights escalating to risk precious capital ship reserves.

    Forget new or small alliances getting into sov. It’s a matter of join the donut or be blobbed right back to high sec.

    April 6, 2021 at 1:25 PM
    • Seir Luciel Alaric Faelen

      “the days of sov warfare end when and if GSF loses their space.”

      I don’t get where this hubris comes from. Goons express wonder that they would be attacked, and anger that people would paint them as the bad guys. At the end of the day it might just be to show the world would still turn.

      If Goons want more people to flip and join them, or for other PAPI members to have a change of heart and go home; if they want PAPI members to be convinced about Goon renting and BoB articles, they ought to start with an elementary amount of humility. I’ve said before Goons have a PR problem. It doesn’t matter if Goons are the bad guys or the white knights of eve so long as people still perceive them as the bad guys. Addressing that PR problem starts with this.

      April 6, 2021 at 2:49 PM
      • Gray Doc Seir Luciel

        Reminds me of teachers I have had. Couldn’t match up in an argument, so attacked people for their “attitude.” “You’ve got a real attitude, boy, you gotta bring that under control now, y’hear?”

        April 6, 2021 at 4:08 PM
        • Marus Gray Doc

          STFU boy, you wanna bring someone’s attitude under control bring it on the battlefield and control us?! You feel like loosing the war and now everybody smels like blue donuts. You can scream for as long and hard as you want, goons will never own sov in nullsec again, so help us our capitals and supers!
          If you guys are the only ones that want the good of the game then why the fuck are you severely outnumbered???? Why don’t all players, honest players join you to get rid of PAPI and that blue donut you keep seeing??? Let me tell you why, because I fucking remember when the shittani (aka mittani) was telling goon members that EVE sucks and they should play other games. I remember when your leader should have been banned from the game and somehow CCP forgive him. We will never forget, and we will never forgive!

          April 6, 2021 at 4:52 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Marus

            “STFU boy, you wanna bring someone’s attitude under control bring it on the battlefield and control us?! You feel like loosing the war and now everybody smels like blue donuts. You can scream for as long and hard as you want, goons will never own sov in nullsec again, so help us our capitals and supers!
            If you guys are the only ones that want the good of the game then why the fuck are you severely outnumbered???? Why don’t all players, honest players join you to get rid of PAPI and that blue donut you keep seeing??? Let me tell you why, because I fucking remember when the shittani (aka mittani) was telling goon members that EVE sucks and they should play other games. I remember when your leader should have been banned from the game and somehow CCP forgave him. We will never forget, and we will never forgive!”

            Saving this for later – lol

            April 6, 2021 at 4:58 PM
          • Susurrus Synaesthesia Moomin Amatin

            When you save it, be sure not to correct all the rampant grammar and spelling errors. They really add flavor.

            April 6, 2021 at 5:17 PM
          • William Doe Susurrus Synaesthesia

            I think it’d be better to have the original to show the level of mouthbreathing stupidity first, then post a corrected version after it to make it at remotely comprehensible.

            April 7, 2021 at 12:58 AM
          • Oh don’t worry my dear, I have some saved from you also, just saying

            April 6, 2021 at 8:01 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Marus

            Are these the ones you saved from the BoB/NC sponsored shills from years ago? Or perhaps you will create some fake ones to go along with your revisionist “wizzard hat” stories?

            April 6, 2021 at 8:29 PM
          • Seir Luciel Marus

            Chill.

            April 6, 2021 at 5:22 PM
          • Marus Seir Luciel

            I know, but somebody needs to remind them from time to time that their shit smells at least as bad as our shit. The air must be so rarefied where their noses are…. Time to get their feet back on new eden and realise that eve playerbase doesn’t orbit 1DQ or Delve but the other way around

            April 6, 2021 at 8:11 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Marus

            I love seeing “wizard hatters”. You chaps really are the best. Not only do you talk about something that you know nothing about you also cherry pick certain bits. To use someone else’s pain to further your own ends is quite the thing. Keep it classy PAPI.

            April 6, 2021 at 8:25 PM
          • Sorry, I mean: “Skill yourself.” Oops.

            April 8, 2021 at 12:07 AM
          • Seir Luciel Jordan Godbey

            Don’t click. This needs to be flagged.

            April 6, 2021 at 5:26 PM
      • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

        What hubris? When The Imperium setup in Delve it was done with the knowledge that BoB/PAPI/HBC/MBC/N3 etc would come for us again. The Imperium would appear to be one of the few things standing in the way of the “Wardens” rental plan that has been formed. At this time I would say that Legacy Coalition is in the worst spot and PanDaFam the best. So what are PanDaFam planning on doing with all this space?

        As for the PR problem, there is no problem. In time people will speak of this war and will ask “what side were you on?”. Some people are going to find that easier to answer than others. This war has been built on deceit and betrayal on the part of PAPI. Evidence of this is all over the internet.

        April 6, 2021 at 4:56 PM
        • Seir Luciel Moomin Amatin

          Hubris is when you believe that the world wouldn’t move on if you lost a war. It is the belief that your existence is so central to everyone else’s good time, that reducing your personal power means the reduction of everyone else’s fun. Alaric’s comment effectively states that. And you aren’t denying it.

          I don’t want Goons to quit the game, I want them to lose the war. If Goons had accepted Vily’s proposition and PanFam was getting attacked, yeah it would suck pretty hard for me and my alliance. But I wouldn’t start saying that without us EVE would stop having sov warfare: we’re only an alliance. We aren’t the game; we aren’t that important.

          April 6, 2021 at 5:20 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

            According to the Cambridge Dictionary people it is:

            Hubris – an extreme and unreasonable feeling of pride and confidence in yourself.

            “exterme and unreasonable” is interesting as I see The Imperium holding out agains the largest forces ever assembled for almost a year. The Imperium knows it is still set to lose it all but consoles itself with the knowledge that it has been here before. Unlike last time The Imperium has a chance to make the cost of war crippling.

            April 6, 2021 at 5:36 PM
          • Romulus Loches Seir Luciel

            I’d say that Goons are critically important to your current gameplay. In fact, your very statement about what you want is determined by goons… “I don’t want Goons to quit the game, I want them to lose the war.”

            Truth is that Goons are central to the nullsec content in Eve right now. That’s neither good nor bad, it doesn’t inherently make anyone involved good or bad, it’s just a fact. If you weren’t having fun with this war, you’d be off doing something else.

            April 7, 2021 at 4:41 PM
          • Seir Luciel Romulus Loches

            I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said here.

            April 7, 2021 at 5:10 PM
          • Here we are, being lectured about “fun” by the coalition that sent a thousand HAC pilots to kick a 50-man SIG out of Querious.

            We’re not saying that nobody would be able to have fun in EVE if Goons aren’t in power. We’re saying that if PAPI are in charge, nobody is going to have fun. The truth of that should be difficult to dispute for someone in your position. How do you justify the actions of your own people if “people getting to have fun” is a priority for PAPI? What exactly sounds fun about building the biggest coalition in EVE history and then staying blue to each other forever while you perpetually work together to collectively stomp out any embers of your former adversary and prevent them from playing the game again?

            PAPI are pathetic. Your idea of “fun” is pathetic. Your risk-aversion is pathetic. Your entire megacoalition’s feudal structure full of rental empires and feeder-alliances is pathetic. Personally I hope we all un-sub from EVE and leave you guys to rot in each others’ company. You can have all the space-gold. You can have all the killboard stats. You all deserve each other.

            April 8, 2021 at 12:04 AM
          • Moomin Amatin Ganthrithor

            PAPI have said they wanted old goons back. I am glad you and your ilk are back.

            April 8, 2021 at 1:17 AM
          • Hey, some of us never left.

            April 8, 2021 at 2:31 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Zaand

            From the posting I thought that was obvious ;-).

            April 8, 2021 at 3:16 PM
          • Dripple Ganthrithor

            EVE is not for everyone, I’m sure you will find other MMO that suits you better! Good luck o7

            April 8, 2021 at 8:37 AM
          • Yeah EVE is only for the most hardcore gamers, like those who enjoy the visceral thrills of emergent gameplay such as turbo-blobbing you opponents in HACs at 1/10th of real-speed while waiting hours and hours for entosis FAX to finish sov-lasering. Not everyone is cut out for such high-skillcap, intense, fast-paced action. Gotta be at the pinnacle of PvP expertise to join one of four active HAC fleets and sit at a jump-tunnel blackscreen waiting to press F1 when your FC says. Real tier-1, high-speed low-drag shit there.

            April 11, 2021 at 10:01 PM
          • Havish Montak Seir Luciel

            There was no proposition. Test was actively attacking Imperium in 2019 with Pandafam. The die was cast in the summer of 2019.

            April 10, 2021 at 7:30 AM
      • Zaand Seir Luciel

        The audacity it takes to ally yourself with every warm body in nulsec and then call us out for our supposed “hubris” when we dare to stand and fight for 10 months straight instead of just giving up like your leaders planned.

        No, hubris is assuming that everyone wants to play paddy-cake in nullsec while the coalitions circle-jerk inside of their own little botting fiefdoms. Hubris is the need to literally eliminate from the game any threat that isn’t blue. Hubris is assuming that Imperium would just sort of give up and move out after a single battle. Hubris is assuming we give 2 squirel farts about what the rest of the game thinks about us.

        Goons have been around a lot longer than anyone invading us right now (I don’t count PL because someone should probably do a wellness check to make sure they’re still breathing) and we will be here long after these groups are disbanded and forgotten. There’s your hubris.

        April 6, 2021 at 7:03 PM
      • William Doe Seir Luciel

        Your problem is that even if Goons apologized for anything and every perceived crime under the sun, it won’t do much to convince a majority of people in the blue donut. The huge coalition YOU are a part of has already written off Goons entirely as purely the bad guys and can do every wrong imaginable. It’s the convenient excuse why Vily wanted them exterminated in the first place before he realized his phrasing of the war had to be changed because it was an impossible task to complete even if PAPI had 300k potential active players let alone it’s original near 150k.

        Seems like, you’re approaching this the wrong way. You can’t convince people who already had their minds set long before anything else.

        April 7, 2021 at 12:53 AM
  • Noob

    Seir Luciel‘s use of logic trumps cherry picked anecdotes that prove nothing beyond what individuals think and/or say at specific moments in time.

    April 6, 2021 at 1:53 PM
    • Zaand Noob

      Sir Luciel’s argument was invalidated in his first paragraph when he asks supposedly hypothetical questions to gloss over actual reality. Does PAPI want a blue donut? Can PAPI have a blue donut? The obvious answer is a resounding yes, because that is literally what nulsec is right now. As for the question of will it continue, well here’s a couple thousand words of proof demonstrating that yes, in fact they do plan to continue down this path. If you’re too dense to see reality for what it is and take your own leadership at their word then that’s on you.

      April 6, 2021 at 6:53 PM
      • Dripple Zaand

        Your “blue donut” is temporal alliance between factions whos only unifying theme is hatred for goons endless arrogance.
        (“Sniff sniff, but someone said they will be allies forever” bo they don’t more often than not after common enemy is beaten factions turn on each other, WW2 for example)

        April 7, 2021 at 9:43 AM
        • Zaand Dripple

          Whatever you have to tell yourself dude.

          April 7, 2021 at 1:55 PM
        • Romulus Loches Dripple

          Your “temporal alliance” has existed for 9 months so far, at what point will you acknowledge it is a blue donut?

          April 7, 2021 at 4:47 PM
          • Dripple Romulus Loches

            Are you saying war is over?
            Or are you implying that there is time threshold when temporal alliances become permanent? Game mechanic perhaps?

            April 8, 2021 at 9:12 AM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            The only people who get to decide when the war is over is PAPI. And they set themselves a goal that is generally agreed to be unachievable. Meanwhile there is talk of “wardens of null” being setup and that it would be a wonderful idea. That way the goon menace can be suppressed whenever required while a “blue-tral” set of NIPs and NAPs are set in place with extra attention to rental regions.

            April 8, 2021 at 3:21 PM
        • Novartis Dripple

          Problem with this logic:
          More often than not after common enemy is beaten factions turn on each other

          This is an invalid argument, Goons have said before they won’t yield. Their goal is to survive. Even if 1DQ fall, they’ll stick to NPC Delve, which means your common enemy is never beaten at all. If your enemy is never beaten, then the group won’t splintered at all. Hence, blue donut. Temporal alliance? It’s more like permanent alliance since the alliance end goal is set too high

          Yay for botter, I guess? Blegh.

          April 8, 2021 at 1:59 AM
          • Moomin Amatin Novartis

            Or perhaps the setting of a goal so high that it is never going to be accomplished is a stroke of genious? That way the “blue donut” justifies its existence forever.

            April 8, 2021 at 3:12 AM
          • Dripple Moomin Amatin

            I’m sure people will “eventually” get bored to structure bashing and chasing Imperium inty fleets and look for new content.

            War has always been necessity for alliances survival in EVE, those alliances which don’t provide content will stagnate and someone else will take their place.
            This fact will fact won’t change .

            April 8, 2021 at 9:01 AM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            I already hear people saying that they are bored. But you wait until PAPI complete the future they want. We have already seen hints of that in the past and many said it was not a good thing. Thankfully The Imperium fights valiantly against such a future.

            April 8, 2021 at 3:29 PM
          • Dripple Moomin Amatin

            Nobody in PAPI side is saying that they are bored, granted people do hope that Imperium would fight and “make us bleed” on every keepstar how they boasted, now it feels like we are hitting over and over a defenseless victim.

            Why they would be more bored than in peace? People have warfront for pvp and they can always jump clone home to rat and mine.

            Sure it must be boring to sit in 1DQ and be told to not fly anything below destroyer class, but that’s Imperiums choice.

            April 9, 2021 at 8:54 AM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            So much fiction in one post. Not even going to unpack this one as there is so much on the internet that contradicts this it is unreal. I like you posting though so do keep that up.

            April 9, 2021 at 12:09 PM
          • Dripple Moomin Amatin

            Which parts are fiction?

            https://zkillboard.com/alliance/1354830081/
            Goons not flying anything above destroyers anymore?

            Ratting is happening in “home regions”
            https://www.eveonline.com/news/view/monthly-economic-report-february-2021

            PAPI being tired to war? well… Sure I’m not denying that your friends in PAPI might not be tired of the war… Its been bit boring since you haven’t been spamming local.

            What comes to Imperium claims to make attackers bleed and use Keepstars as force multipliers, first firechat video that I picked didn’t have mention about it, so I thought it wasn’t worth it.

            And lastly nice that you like my comments, I thought I rudely invaded Goons safe space with my disagreeing comments.

            April 9, 2021 at 1:25 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            Your first link proves your lie. I see ships larger than a destroyer being flown.

            Are Brave members jumping home to Catch? Not seeing them. Not even sure why you are mentioning ratting, but hey ho.

            You then go from “bored” to “tired” with what seems to be a moving goalpost again. All the time you claim to speak for all of PAPI and yet their leaders such as Noraus and Dunk are saying that some in PAPI are bored and tired of the war. So what is it? Are you bored, not bored, tired, not tired, just pick one and stick with it if you can.

            So the thing you cite as being a repeated and core statement by Mittens is a thing you cannot find. I expect at least 6 could be found easily. I mean I can find easily that many about PAPI leadership talking about assaulting 1DQ. Unless of course this is just another thing made up by PAPI. Would not be the first time.

            Goons are very used to pubbies being rude. But also goons are very used to pubbies proving that they like to make shit up as you have done in your posts. I thank you for them. Please keep posting.

            April 9, 2021 at 1:58 PM
          • Dripple Moomin Amatin

            “You then go from “bored” to “tired” ”
            Was me using accidentally those words as synonyms, due incompetence on English language, its not my native language.
            How you found this being a spinning or “moving the goalpost” is beyond me.

            “Are Brave members jumping home to Catch? Not seeing them. Not even sure why you are mentioning ratting, but hey ho.”
            https://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Catch#adm
            By the looks of it there are some industrial/ratting going on in Catch, but I’m sure in goon propaganda Brave is completely devastated and beaten.

            “So the thing you cite as being a repeated and core statement by Mittens is a thing you cannot find. I expect at least 6 could be found easily.” I know there is multiple cases, but as I stated searching for them wasn’t worth it.

            “1DQ. Unless of course this is just another thing made up by PAPI. Would not be the first time.”
            Are you questioning, that will be there a assault for 1DQ or just scratching for straws?

            “Your first link proves your lie. I see ships larger than a destroyer being flown.” Im sorry you are right, by the time of linking there wasn’t this expensive death machine named “Maller” in bottom of the list.

            April 9, 2021 at 5:12 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            So rather than admit error you try to deflect and perpetuate a lie that you have created. Not just one lie, three and counting at least. Now you know why I like you posting.

            I cannot answer your question as to what PAPI will do. But they have been saying that they will assault 1DQ really really soon now. Like real soon. Any day even. Meanwhile they will just test the 1DQ response time from The Imperium.

            April 9, 2021 at 6:17 PM
          • Seir Luciel Moomin Amatin

            Since M2 no one is saying that we will be assaulting 1DQ soon. 1DQ is the final boss; it gets attacked last after everything else is cleared. PAPI time line is looking at a couple/few months before we attack 1DQ.

            In times past people went for head shots: attack the capital system. No one could have even conceived of a war this long in the earlier days of eve. But PAPI is playing the long game with this war and, so far, has shown its had the endurance to do it.

            Part of the reason for this is because Goons put down so many structures; they had propaganda posters about their keepstars alone. Takes a long time to grind them down. Another reason to save 1DQ for last has to do with the asset safety mechanics. There wont be anywhere for the loot in the keepstars of 1DQ to jump to.

            In sum: no one is expecting a 1DQ attack until the next few months.

            April 10, 2021 at 2:30 PM
          • Dripple Novartis

            I don’t see why PAPI should just disband because goons are threatening to never surrender and become next Mordus Angels. War isn’t over, even if you feel like it, while 1DQ still stands the war stays undecided.

            If you think that goons can stay as respectable power in NPC space… Well good luck with that.

            April 8, 2021 at 8:52 AM
          • Novartis Dripple

            Problem is PAPI is in a crossroad:
            1. Should they just maintain the status quo here, letting 1DQ still stand and both have their capital fleet technically intact? Then Goons would still be deemed as a threat since their capital fleet could strike back anytime they want, and I’m pretty sure the Goons, as what we’ve seen in the past is patience enough to play the waiting game.
            2. Mount the biggest attack we might ever seen on EVE for 1DQ, with near certainty will decimate both sides capital fleet in progress, which, might not be what Legacy would like to do since PanFam capital fleet would be still better than them, even if pounded heavily. Now that the Goons out of the picture, Legacy ,battered, outstreched and out of capital won’t be able to stand another capital bashing if other alliance decided they want to break legacy(and of course, surviving Goons would be glad to help)

            And this is what I want to laugh about your logic:
            I don’t see why PAPI should just disband because goons are threatening to never surrender and become next Mordus Angels. War isn’t over, even if you feel like it, while 1DQ still stands the war stays undecided.

            Congratulation, you played yourself. You just admit that the alliance won’t dissolve, like, oh forever, since it seems that PAPI don’t have any commitment to take 1DQ in near future. See you in another decade before you take over 1DQ ihub!

            Now, where’s the talking about ‘temporal’ alliance? It’s more like permanent alliance in my ears.

            April 8, 2021 at 2:13 PM
          • Dripple Novartis

            Laugh all you want.
            This is unprecedented war in EVE history thus the alliance between attacking factions have stayed so long.

            The war will end when/if 1DQ falls, sure you can keep up “sniff sniff, I still login I’m not exterminated, so war isn’t over”
            Moment when Goons degenerate to entity, that all it can do is grief from NPC Delve, the war is over, there is no longer “Imperium”

            What comes to your “Mount the biggest attack we might ever seen on EVE for 1DQ, with near certainty will decimate both sides capital fleet in progress, which, might not be what Legacy would like to do since PanFam capital fleet would be still better than them” all I can say is, “death to all supers” and “I really don’t care what happens to Legacy, they will be most likely my enemies after the war”

            PAPI has proven that its willing to take a risk to achieve their objectives and I will so DAMN disappointed if there isn’t grand finale in this war.
            However I do expect goons to make some sort of backup plan and find way to stay move the goal post and backtrack on their “We will defend 1DQ to the last keepstar” (which is naturally the smartmove”

            April 9, 2021 at 11:57 AM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            PAPI taking a risk? What risk is that?

            Also please can you link to the sources of the “goalposts” you keep saying The Imperium is moving. I have tried to find them and am unable to. Which is odd as PAPI repeat them so much and so often you would think I could find them on every Meta Show and every Fireside. But no, not to be found.

            April 9, 2021 at 12:27 PM
          • Dripple Moomin Amatin

            -PAPI will never breach the Fortress Delve/ “Real Delve
            -PAPI anchored Keepstar next to 1DQ > “Real Delve” moves to 1DQ
            -PAPI supers will be hellcamped till eternity > Cyno jammer drops, Hellcamp disbands.
            -1DQ isin’t final stand anymore, since goons will grief from NPC Delve if 1DQ falls.

            here are some goalposts, that Imperium have set during the war.

            April 9, 2021 at 6:53 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            So many lies lol.

            I wrote back in October exactly how to invade Delve. There is no space that a 150k member mega-coalition could not setup in. PAPI should have chosen a date and then installed themselves in 1DQ at the start of the war. Instead they went on some grand procession while the rest of New Eden watched the spectacle.

            All of these goalposts you speak of are the ones created by PAPI to cover for their incompetence. The same incompetence that led to the M2-X disaster. The Imperium has only one goal that was gifted at the start of the war, “resist extermination”. It remains the same today. No need for any other goalpost so why create the stupid ones you keep mentioning?

            April 9, 2021 at 7:53 PM
          • Dripple Moomin Amatin

            You claim that only and one objective for Imperium has been just to survive this whole war and you constantly insist that PAPI:s goal is nothing less than extermination of goons?
            Well isn’t PAPI working exactly towards that goal?
            PAPI is purging every single Imperium structure in Delve/Fountain/Querious/Period Basis before assaulting the 1DQ where they will be in disadvantage by every metric.

            When you talk about setting “war goals” too high, well Goons really did bury theirs really low “resist extermination” “you cant win the war because we will grief from NPC Delve like Mordus Angels v2”
            How pathetic is that?

            Imperium beside M2 (which was clearly was PAPI:s mistake) have shown nothing but incompetence and cowardice in this war. Even with infinite ISK button, flaming morale, endless Super armada etc etc, you are burying your head into sand and letting PAPI spank you.
            Sure keep barking that how incompetent PAPI is, its still not even close to the level of pathetic fighting what Imperium has shown.

            April 9, 2021 at 9:39 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            History will remember heroes who stood against the blue donut far beyond the expectations of anyone. 150k vs 50k and almost 1 year of war. Monuments will be placed in space of heroic deeds. The other side will be remembered for building a rental empire. I know what side I am on and the side I want to be on. Nice to see that you have conceded all the original points given more shifting on your part. Good luck with the rental empire and I will continue to resist extermination.

            April 9, 2021 at 10:03 PM
          • Dripple Moomin Amatin

            Now we are getting to the core of your delusional selfmade fantasy world.With “heroes” “mightiest and greatest bond sharing warrior” you mean the people who cowardly gave up fighting and holed in 1DQ where they hope that server limitations and faction fortizar will keep them “alive”

            You let Delve/Fountain/Querious/Period Basis be glassed without a fight.(also you point out, that how Legacy is not protecting brave, but you have basically admitted that you had never an intention to protect Initiatives assets in Fountain)

            Only fight you toke was M2 and you even won it and managed to pin PAPI titans to a”hellcamp” which did nothing. You fled to 1DQ moment there was a bit of danger of losing, like a cowards.

            Your heroic deeds are nothing, but sitting scared in 1DQ waiting for PAPI to take a fight which they will be in enormous disadvantage, a fight which you would never have spine to take. Meanwhile you are trying to prove yourself and your friends “how EVE will die because we aren’t in it” and “Why PAPI should go home and let us take revenge on Legacy and just ignore that Panfam/Fraternity were part of the war because they are too strong”

            It really saddens me to see where Imperium have degenerated during my hiatus from EVE, I was part of Imperium/CFC for 6 years after all.

            April 10, 2021 at 10:23 AM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            Delusion is more your thing as already proven by your very own words. You lied and then deflected and went on tangents as each of your lies fell.

            No entity in the history of Eve has been outnumbered so and fought for so long. World records were set. Goons are yet again doing the things that other alliances only dream of.

            It really saddens me to see people pretend to be “real goons” and then seemingly know nothing about goons.

            April 10, 2021 at 11:47 AM
          • Dripple Moomin Amatin

            Again the same self made lie, you HAVEN’T fought, all you have done is sit in 1DQ let PAPI grind your structures and wait for the final battle where you have every advantage in world.

            Unless watching your structures burn is “fighting” these days, then you havent done anything after M2

            April 10, 2021 at 3:03 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            You know you contradict yourself in the very same comment right? Keep posting.

            April 10, 2021 at 4:28 PM
          • Seir Luciel Moomin Amatin

            I’m with Dripple on this one, Moomin. Goons have shifted their own fair share of goalposts.

            My thing is that I don’t see this as a bad thing. Events happen, times change, and you need new plans. This is normal process in life generally as well as eve.

            “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds” said Emerson. The essay he said it in is kind of stupid, but this quote has some merit. If you want to be serious, you adapt to an ever changing world and shifting challenges.

            “Shifting goalposts” is a pejorative way of saying you aren’t a stubborn ass in the face of change.

            April 10, 2021 at 2:46 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

            In the opening statement of this war The Mittani made it very clear that we would be on th back-foot and losing our stuff. He also made it clear that we would hold out in NPC Delve.

            Think hard about that for a second and then try to work out why he would say all the things he is supposed to have said since. It makes no sense at all. Can I find the numerous recordings of him saying such things even? Again, no. There should be at least 100 of them if you want to believe the PAPI shifting goalposts narrative. So where are they?

            Perhaps they are a fabrication just as the original comment of this thread was. The work of a mind with an agenda waiting for fools to fall in.

            April 10, 2021 at 4:25 PM
          • Novartis Dripple

            Then give us a timeframe. When? 1 months from now? 2 months? 6 months? Another year? Another decade? I don’t need a detail one, that’s an opsec for sure, but hey, if you don’t have any clear time of when you want to achieve that, you can just bash just one structure a day, or even just blew a ship, and say, “Hey, the war is still going! We still need this alliance!”

            “PAPI has proven that its willing to take a risk to achieve their objectives and I will so DAMN disappointed if there isn’t grand finale in this war.” And I’m damn sure ask you to keep this words. The war won’t over unless one side is out of capital for sure, either PAPI to take down 1DQ, or Goons to defend 1DQ. Proof it. Evidence speaks louder than words. Take the fight to 1DQ, don’t make ppl just wait for u to drop another cyno jammer(which I think if u drop it in 1DQ would be silenced quite fast, or maybe not even needed since all Goons caps are there already)

            Moment when Goons degenerate to entity, that all it can do is grief from NPC Delve, the war is over, there is no longer “Imperium”
            I’ll save this comment at the time GSF and Imperium rise again, provided if those warden words is not true tho, since if those warden talking is true, well, blue donut? anyone?

            April 9, 2021 at 3:47 PM
          • Seir Luciel Novartis

            1DQ will probably get attacked within the next few months; that is looking how long it will take to grind down all delve’s structures besides those in the capital system. Unless another M2 happens, which set PAPI back months, that’s the timeline.

            After a win or loss, meaning a major capital fight, the end of the war and PAPI won’t be far behind.

            April 10, 2021 at 3:03 PM
          • Novartis Seir Luciel

            Alright, I’ll wait for that. Don’t give people empty promise. I’ll stop my argument for now, I kinda feel like the core argument of the original post has gone murkier over time.

            April 10, 2021 at 3:48 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

            Heard it all before. If we are making predictions then I am going to go for this one now. PAPI declare the game is broken and that 1DQ has to be nerfed as it is unfair. Then PAPI will go away blaming CCP and goons for them not taking 1DQ.

            April 10, 2021 at 4:32 PM
  • Guilford Australis

    So… Matterall and RonUSMC don’t want a blue donut and don’t characterize PAPI’s nearly complete control of sov nullsec as a blue donut. What they want, instead, is “wardens” in the north, east, south, and west of nullsec who are all aligned with each other in the sole interest of preventing The Imperium from emerging again.

    How is that not the exact farking literal definition of a pure, undiluted, barrel-strength, honest-to-God “blue donut?”

    April 6, 2021 at 3:05 PM
    • Moomin Amatin Guilford Australis

      They are not biased though and shame on you for ever suggesting such a thing. I mean it is not like one is keen to make up doxxing stories in order to attract viewers on Twitch. Or for the other one to propose gold ammo and then walk that back when it trashed their CSM run and deny it ever happened. What people do defines them, talk only gets you so far.

      April 6, 2021 at 5:23 PM
    • William Doe Guilford Australis

      Does make it seem like Matterall and Ron are spawncamping fuckwits you’d see pollute FPS games who get their jollies off being the bad-asses they think they are when they’re just egotistical control freaks.

      April 7, 2021 at 12:47 AM
  • Democritus

    Botting and rental empires, XIX and Serenity allies. It’s becoming pretty clear that this is a move to turn EVE into a $$$ business for the elite few. Just amazed that the grunts, that actually play EVE for game its meant to be, are up with this. Just being allied to XIX for starters would put me off knowing their history.

    April 7, 2021 at 2:02 AM
    • Bronze Condor Democritus

      I support Goonswarm, we must destroy the Blue Donut.

      April 8, 2021 at 10:41 PM