How Being Risk-Averse Breaks EVE Online

Sothrasil 2018-01-21

Eve is a very complicated system, and the tiniest change can lead to great effects, but it can also be slow to react. Yes, I am going to make a point about Interceptors, how their inherent nullification is breaking the game a little bit more every day, but I am also going to write about other game mechanics that do more harm than you might think.

A bit of history

A few years ago the interceptor was a very niche ship, rarely ever used by anyone. It was very fast, but brittle and expensive (for a frigate). Rarely anyone used them because the alternatives seemed better suited for every day live in EVE. T3 destroyers weren’t a thing, so you would use Assault Frigates for tackle, most notably the Jaguar and Hawk. For scouting you wanted a cloak, and why not warp cloaked as well? So Covert Ops were the choice to go with, usually the Cheetah because of it’s insane speed that made busting through gatecamps a walk in the park. And they’re good at probing too!

When CCP looked at balancing frigates, they saw the Interceptor underused in comparison and tried to heighten its appeal by giving it a cool mechanic that other frigates lack: nullification.

The case of the Interceptor

The introduction of nullification to Interceptors did not immediately kill all content and bring the dark age upon EVE, it was a slow process that was aided by other changes as well, and it truly became apparent to be a problem after the Aegis SOV changes. All of a sudden you could attack enemy space with a single ship, at virtually no cost compared to the huge fleets needed to do this before, and at no risk as well. And therein lies the core problem of Interceptors: no risk. Nullification makes them immune to bubbles (an area of effect that holds down your ship and keeps you from entering warp, only usable in Nullsec), and their high agility enables them to enter warp before anything can lock them up.

This has lead the Interceptor to be more than just a niche ship, it has become the go-to frigate for anything at least in nullsec, but also partly in lowsec. They have become haulers for expensive BPOs and implants, instant-damage attack ships that can hardly be countered at all, the perfect scout that doesn’t have to worry about the enemy and most of all the most used and yet worst tackle ship. Because you can do it all in one ship, with no risk involved.

Size doesn’t matter when it comes to risk

Let’s leave the frigates aside and move to the other end of the spectrum: super capitals. It has never been safer to own one then it is now. You can cyno onto citadels and tether up in an instant, where in the past you had to cyno in a safe spot and then warp into your POS (if you had one). You can even dock up your titans in Keepstars now, making them basically invulnerable to attacks thanks to asset safety. This enables you to do all kinds of things that needed you to have another character or help from someone else before—another weak link gone. While it is true that super hunters still catch their prey, they have to try harder every day.

There are grand tales of people watching a logged-off super in a long-destroyed POS for months, even years. While most of these hunts end in the subject getting to safety in another POS, some of them actually get caught and form legends, probably still told in years to come. With citadels, this has become nearly impossible, and as soon as you’re docked up nothing can harm you, protected not only by defense systems and hard to crack 1 week timers, but also asset safety. So even if the Keepstar you elected to dock your titan in blows up, there is no risk for your officer-fit Doomsday-slinger, just a click, a few days of waiting and 15% of the value in cost. Sure it’s not for free, but do you see the chance of sudden Interdictors anywhere?

Added to this you can just undock even while the citadel is being shot, still be tethered and jump to another citadel. No bubble camp thanks to the Point Defense System, an area of effect that damages everything not tethered in close range to the citadel.

Incursions: risk-free money with a chance of Revenant

Incursion sites are a bit special when it comes to PvE: they’re behind acceleration gates, they have powerful NPCs that can explode you in seconds if you don’t pay attention, and they reward you not only in ISK, but also in rare BPCs and Concord LP. Especially in lowsec though these can be run at nearly no risk, in short: it’s very complicated to even catch incursion runners.

The long explanation: Incursions are cyno jammed, so you can only use Covert Ops Cynos. This limits hot-drops to Bombers, Covert T3s and Black Ops. Added to this you can’t open a cyno inside one of the sites or even anywhere on-grid with the acceleration gate. Not that it would help to cyno in the site, because of the powerful NPCs it would be a bad idea to go in there anyway, because they will switch to your fleet almost immediately, and there is a reason Incursions are run in well tanked ships with logi ships alongside them.

So you need to figure out which site they go to next, catch them on the acceleration gate, since you can’t activate it when you’re tackled, you need to light your covert cyno off-grid and warp your fleet down before they can land, and you need to be able to actually break their tank and survive their fire. Added to this you’re able to take the acceleration gate instantly if you warp in at the right angle without anyone being able to lock you up, so even if you aim for stragglers your chances of catching anything are slim.

Where does this lead?

The magic word here is content. Reddit likes to throw it around whenever something happens, and for good reason: it’s getting rare. Gatecamps have become nearly extinct because Interceptors can just run through them with no risk of getting caught, so there are no fleets forming to break the camps and no fleets to counterdrop those.

Supers and titans rarely get caught traveling anymore, no reaction fleets for that either, do you see a trend?

Risk aversity isn’t the Problem here, it’s that EVEs mechanics enable and encourage us to be risk averse in the first place, when they should do the exact opposite. It isn’t the only thing broken, but it is one of the unique things about EVE, the selling point for anyone that enjoys tipping over sandcastles: EVE should be dangerous, full of mistakes waiting to happen. Not a simple symbol assuring you safety. You should have to expect to lose your ship every time you undock, that’s what makes undocking exciting. It’s not the Killmail you get in the end, it’s the knowledge that it could’ve been your own ship blowing up, and that it probably will be soon.

You can see these effects all over EVE today, but what inspired me most to write about this is the newbie FCs we try to train daily. Their usual fears and questions, that used to range from “how do I make a fleet” to “I’m afraid to get everyone killed” are nowadays overshadowed by one question: “where do I take my fleet to do stuff” and the answer is becoming really hard to find. You can’t just send them out to crush a gatecamp, hunt down an enemy gang that’s bothering your miners, or simply camp a gate themselves. You need to send them regions away, through wormholes and jump bridges, and what do you think will they take for that long journey? Any fast-warping, low-risk ships coming to mind?

I could go on and on about this (and I probably will if you talk to me about this subject), but I still have hope that I am not alone in this matter, even if this hope relies on CCP realising that a safe EVE is a dead EVE.

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Comments

  • brennan

    They should get rid of innate nullification on any and all ships (bar t3 cruisers) and instead make it a module… because here is the thing… THere is no counter to bubbles unless you are in a nullified ship… Having a ship that is naturally unaffected them is OP but so is a bubble with a gate camp without it…Just how you can choose to equip warp stabs you should be able to have the choice to give up a bunch of spaces and cpu room to fit a nullification module to make them a travel fit if need be. Make the nullification module so it cant be equipped alongside warp stabs and then an instant locker can still point you (this would also make battleships have to make a choice for travel fits… nullification with a chance to get stabbed at the gate or warp stabs with a chance to run into a bubble… With that everything involved would have a counter which is how it should be

    January 21, 2018 at 8:57 am
    • Alaric Faelen brennan

      I agree. The only ships I think should have inherent nullification is maybe shuttles. Pure taxis with no combat value. So sure, you can get to content easily, but need a different ship to actually do that content.

      For combat ships- nullification should only be a module, and should gimp the ship rather than enhance it, the same way stabs do. Still possible, but severely disadvantaged. (but if you are willing to take that risk….)
      Also, why not give this to a different class than ceptors? They already have insta-warp as a thing. Rework Assault Frigs to be able to nullify. One T2 frig has speed and insta-warp, another can nullify, another can use covops cloaks…..that’d be three choices for a player across three classes of frigate, to deal with a given threat.

      I like choices in a sandbox game.

      January 21, 2018 at 6:02 pm
      • brennan Alaric Faelen

        Same… and like I said in a sandbox EVERYTHING should have a counter. And those counters should carry risks of their own. I dont think any ship should naturally be invulnerable to bubbles including shuttles. Modules for each size of ship and the drawback is HIGH CPU and power requirements that make you have to make choices based on pros and cons.

        January 22, 2018 at 2:22 am
      • Honestly I hate the way inties work as taxis much more than I hate things like Claw fleets. Interceptors’ combat abilities are definitely not their most offensive aspect. Taking all the risk out of traveling in EVE is not desirable– one can easily keep numerous purpose-fit ships in various content locations and then flit between them in a taxi ship. Why bother even putting restrictions on things like jump clones if you’re going to field a whole class of taxi ships that effectively allow people to do the same thing?

        January 22, 2018 at 5:57 am
        • brennan Ganthrithor

          What if interceptors has their align time nerfed… so none of them could insta align even when equipped with interns?

          January 22, 2018 at 10:48 am
    • Why do you think gatecamps are OP? Just curious.

      January 22, 2018 at 5:58 am
      • brennan Ganthrithor

        Because their are so few ways to escape them. And most of those methods involve luck… lucky me the gate put me outside the bubble… all it takes is a bubble and an instant locker and there is almost no way to counter it… maybe a cloak but even that’s only effective on certain ship types…

        January 22, 2018 at 10:32 am
        • OK, I agree and disagree with you. Hear me out:

          Back before the Fozzie era, there used to be a bit more give and take with gatecamps– small ships (like the insta-lockers you’re talking about) had poor offensive capabilities, while the ships players found useful for general activities were quite large and possessed good offensive and defensive stats. So if an attacker brought small and or agile, hit-and-run type ships, they could tackle a defender, but killing them took quite a while. Time-to-kill felt like it was a lot higher on average than it is now, because the interdicted players had big tanks, and if you wanted to bring serious DPS to an attacking gang you had to deploy some fairly niche ships.

          For example: at one point I used to fly a highly-specialized sniping megapulse Navy Apoc with a cloak– it brought significant DPS, range, and tracking to a gang when compared to the HACs we more-typically flew, but at the cost of being big and clumsy and heavily-reliant on premade bookmarks to be effective.

          Since ~2012, CCP’s ship balance teams have seemed hell-bent on obliterating that relationship between offensive/defensive stats and ship size / maneuverability. I suppose a great example of this erosion is the Orthrus: here is a cruiser that handles like an assault frigate, has the DPS of a battleship, the tank of a HAC, ewar bonuses of a recon, and parenthetically that ~500-600 dps will apply fully to basically any ship in the game bigger than a light drone. Or the Svipul, which nearly takes a Vagabond and converts it to a destroyer hull at the cost of range, which is hardly a cost when you consider that its tiny size and available bonuses make it ideally suited to getting under people’s guns and thus any pilot would want to engage at point-blank range anyway.

          The same is true across a broad range of ship sizes– attack BCs take the offensive abilities of battleships and put them onto significantly smaller, cheaper, more-maneuverable, faster-locking hulls. Svipuls, Hecates, Storks, the revamped navy ewar frig hulls, frigate-sized logistics ships… I could go on and on. Between the proliferation of overpowered, tiny ships, and the warp speed changes that make traveling in anything remotely large literally hell, everyone is heavily incentivized to fly these annoying little things. Fast tackle and DPS / EWAR, etc roles are no longer very distinct. I can bring a single ship and be fast tackle, heavy tackle, and DPS simultaneously. This has made it incredibly easy to assemble a really vicious gatecamp gang without too much thought or organization.

          I remember a time when gatecamping had to be pursued quite methodically and with close coordination and cooperation between team members: everyone had a role to play and had to play it well for the camp to actually catch and kill things. Sometimes successfully killing something meant some people had to recuse themselves from combat and wait on the other side of a gate in order to force a target into a corner. These days as soon as a gang gets over five people everyone just starts bringing sebo’ed arty Svipuls and literally anything that jumps into the camp gets fucking vaporized the instant it decloaks. We’ve actually had sebo-drama where people start bringing ships with ever-increasing numbers of sebos in order to actually stand a chance at even getting on killmails. I’ve literally had to yell at people to go back and fit points and shield extenders on their ships because the gang gets so biased towards the instant vaporization of small targets that if any hostile brings a ship bigger than a cruiser through the gate, the whole gang has to run away.

          Sorry for the long-winded reply. What I’m trying to say is that I agree with you that gatecamping can feel very one-sided when you jump your T1 cruiser into a gatecamp and it gets volleyed off the field the moment it decloaks. But that wasn’t how gatecamp scenarios went down in the past, and it’s not how they need to go down in the future. If CCP could get past their obsession with small, fast, powerful, disposable ships and take us back to a place where TTKs were measured in minutes instead of seconds, EVE could go back to having that chess-like feel where a pilot who jumps into a gatecamp and keeps their wits about them stands a decent chance of escaping with their ship. You weren’t always able to escape, mind you: if the campers brought enough people, or just the right mix of ships and coordinated between themselves effectively, you’d still end up losing your ship to the camp. But at least the process could go on for several minutes as you ping-ponged back and forth through a gate, abusing every last second of your gate cloak and calling for help from your allies the whole time. And if your opponents got kill-greedy or made a mistake at any point, off you sailed into the sunset in low armor.

          TL;DR: Gatecamps aren’t overpowered, the tiny ships of EVE Online: The Second Decade are overpowered. It’s a problem.

          January 23, 2018 at 7:03 am
          • brennan Ganthrithor

            I love the long winded reply. I’m not totally new but I started playing in 2015-2016 so I don’t really know how things used to be. My experiences are only based on how things are now. I like hearing the perspective of someone who’s played longer.

            January 23, 2018 at 10:56 am
          • brennan Ganthrithor

            and I agree… little ships are overpowered right now… the balance between ship types does suck. Everyone says Fozzie hates ships above cruisers and it’s pretty evident… a battleship well fit should be able to take a small gang of frigates (assuming equally skilled pilots). As it stands now thy just mwd in circles around him invulnerable due to inverse tanking and keep him there until they either take you down or get their other friends to join and take you down… it’s like how do these large war machines not have some sort of smaller guns for point defense Lol

            January 23, 2018 at 11:05 am
  • Pew Pew

    I agree completely. It all began with jump drives. Before jump drives you had to ship resources to nullsec in convoys and they could be attacked which meant guards and gameplay. Different alliances would control pipes at different times of the day to get their shipments through. You could win a war by starving someone out.

    But then you could just magic wand supplies straight from Jita into your corps capital system and all that content went away.

    The thing is CCP can’t remove jump drives, remember the null bear tears when they nerfed them? It’s the tragedy of the commons, even if it kills the game people don’t want a power they had taken away.

    Ooh and another example, jetcan mining. It used to be that ships with good harvesting lasers had low cargo capacities and so you had to specialize miners and haulers. It was a great incentive to fleet up, made the cans stealable and was itself emergent, unplanned gameplay. Hilmar has a story about jetcan mining holding his new baby right at the start of EVE’s history, saying it was one of the games biggest successes. Of course then CCP killed it by making the retriever have great harvesting and a massive bay. And then the rorqual.

    You’re totally right, there’s loads of examples.

    January 21, 2018 at 10:01 am
    • I disagree with you on those jump drives. People that looked up after eve were always fascinated by the huge capital fights or huge fights of subcaps that were bridged in by titans anyway. Never heard of anyone interested in pre-capital “escort VIP Counter Strike” convoys guarding or some shit like that. That period is over for various reasons including several nerfs to jumping and jump aids implementation. I however fully agree with the fact that eve nowdays does provide next to no content whatsoever for anybody, maybe except faction warfare and the fozzie sov together with citadels made it even worse. Some people may argue that there is a lot of content within small gangs and solo pvp, but if i would want that i can prety much go back to Battlefield 1. So yeah, many things that were – recently or not – added to the game, fucked it up a bit, when combined they fucked it up a lot. Funny thing, maybe coincidence, who knows, one element was literally always present by every bad decission ccp made in last couple of years, that element is called Fozzie.

      January 21, 2018 at 11:29 am
  • Caleb Ayrania

    +1. EVE needs more skin in the game everywhere.

    January 21, 2018 at 10:24 am
  • theseconddavid

    You could start with not having an alliance of 30,000 dudes. Doesn’t get much more risk averse than that.

    January 21, 2018 at 12:06 pm
    • Havish Montak theseconddavid

      This made me chuckle. We are one entity that faces down the whole galaxy. The blue donut of the North always reforms at the slightest call by Mittens.
      PH: 12668 members
      PL: 3040 (Many with alts not in alliance to keep it looking small)
      NC: 4328 (Many with alts not in alliance to keep it looking small)
      KOS: 1791
      DARKNESS: 4177
      Blades of Grass: 1125
      SLYCE: 3390

      The total is 30519
      Don’t forget MOA another 2774
      Now you have more……..

      January 21, 2018 at 12:22 pm
      • theseconddavid Havish Montak

        You forgot to add test and DRF into your numbers. It’s easy to whine about a lack of content. It’s harder to do something about it. Init, snuffed, bastion, tnt could reset everyone and create some real content. But you won’t, because you are risk averse. The goons could dump 20,000 dudes and still be one of the biggest alliances in the game, but you won’t, because you are risk averse. If you want to whine about it being too hard to get fights, start with fixing what you control first. A group like Triumvirate has reason to whine about risk aversion. They had the balls to take on an ocean of blues with 2000 members and 3000 allies. They get content non stop. You don’t have the balls to fix the problem, so you whine.

        January 21, 2018 at 2:00 pm
        • Triumvirate are the lone guys, fighting DRF all on their own without anyone coming in to help out, ever?

          All that would happen under your scenario is the same as now, people who have a common goal would work together.

          January 21, 2018 at 4:36 pm
          • theseconddavid Rhivre

            Because they are risk averse. So why create a whole post whining about risk aversion, when you have done nothing but embrace it?

            January 21, 2018 at 6:48 pm
        • brennan theseconddavid

          why would you add DRF to those numbers?

          January 22, 2018 at 2:05 am
        • brennan theseconddavid

          I have NEVER seen DRF support imperium with anything. And while INIT has what it takes to be on their own sadly bastion and tnt dont. THey are trying to change that but as it stands thats the truth

          January 22, 2018 at 2:07 am
      • Mo money Havish Montak

        You forgot about 15k other PanFam pets, like mercenary coalition, LSH, And Fafers’s DCU coalition to name a few.

        January 21, 2018 at 3:57 pm
  • Havish Montak

    As one of the leaders of Welp Squad, I struggle to find and provide enjoyable content. The reasons:
    1. Taking anything larger than cruisers takes too long to travel there and back, often 2-3 regions away.
    2. Hostiles don’t even form up, even when mudslinging as they aren’t assured the win.
    3. If the enemy do respond it is in overwhelming force. (Yes, Imperium does the same)
    4. Even “prearranged” “good fights” are never equal. The enemy will bring a heavier doctrine or the counter.

    So we pick on ratters. In Tribute and Vale they are often botters and still use POS towers. I have FCed 3 carrier kills on Keepstars putting my fleet at the mercy of the hostiles. Their buddies would leave them to die in the 5 minutes it took for each one.

    January 21, 2018 at 12:15 pm
  • Aderoth Anstian

    Exactly why should a cloak require human interaction? Cloaky camping works because of players like you. You whine about infinite cloaks and the risk aversity they represent to hide your own risk aversity to even undocking with one in system.

    January 21, 2018 at 2:19 pm
    • Carvj94 Aderoth Anstian

      Go ahead then. Undock and rat/mine when there’s a cloaky in system. I’m sure you’ll be back on the side of reason once your unable stay isk positive.

      January 22, 2018 at 12:01 am
      • Move systems, form a standing fleet, don’t rat in a paper-tanked ship or try and AFK dronerat? You guys are so unimaginative.

        January 22, 2018 at 12:10 am
        • brennan Ganthrithor

          i dont think tethering is that big of an issue… The point of hunting is to catch them before they warp back to the citadel. It happens all the time. If you cant do it then why dont you get good

          January 22, 2018 at 2:16 am
          • We’re talking about the ability to AFK while invulnerable. They’re claiming it’s unfair that I can AFK in safespot and they can’t do anything about it. I’m saying it’s not very different from AFKing in/on a citadel. Both parties can walk away from their keyboards. Both parties can see if / when the other logs off or leaves system. I don’t see why people get their panties in a bunch about AFK cloaking.

            January 22, 2018 at 5:44 am
          • brennan Ganthrithor

            I agree… cloaks camping is scouting… it would be cool if they made a way to scan down cloaked ships… just for the novelty and cool factor but I don’t have any problem with it. It just means you gotta be cautious. Dude could come to life and hot drop ya so don’t be an idiot and keep Dscan on. Some people abuse it… like having 40 alts and cloaks camping every system… but we shouldn’t punish everyone for one guys actions

            January 22, 2018 at 10:29 am
          • brennan Ganthrithor

            I’m going to guess it’s probably because there was this guy with 40 alts doing it and hot dropping randomly in delve and this website is full of goons lol

            January 22, 2018 at 11:10 am
          • There are large, vocal contingents of carebears from literally every group in EVE that whine about this stuff nonstop. I wish they’d all just stop it. I live in Delve too and I don’t lose a carrier every few days to hotdroppers because I’m not a moron. People need to understand that when they keep losing ships to the same hotdrop gang that’s been online in Delve during US prime EVERY DAY FOR THE LAST FOUR MONTHS that it’s not AFK cloakers who are the problem: it’s themselves.

            January 23, 2018 at 1:11 am
          • brennan Ganthrithor

            true… some people just can’t be saved lol

            January 23, 2018 at 11:09 am
          • Carvj94 Ganthrithor

            People who lose more than a carrier a week are silly yea. Pretty much impossible to use caps for isk making for several hours every day in many regions. Although for some people they dont have much time to play daily so the only option other than mining/ratting is logging off. I understand you there but I also get the people who lose their carriers anyway. As long as they don’t bitch excessively and understand what they were doing was risky.

            January 24, 2018 at 4:27 am
          • Carvj94 Ganthrithor

            The main difference there is that you know exactly where someone tethered is in a system and that they’re a local who’s invested in the region in some way. In other words it’s an ability that favors the defender which is intended. While afk cloaking in a safe spot both hides your location and makes you functionally invincible. Even though as an attacker you should be at a disadvantage.

            January 24, 2018 at 4:16 am
          • Actually the ability to (sometimes) determine the location of a docked local is fairly new– I’m not sure why CCP chose to put a docked users counter on Upwell structures. Before– as an attacker– you’d just see a local in local (heh) and hope to god that if you couldn’t scan them down in space somewhere that they were docked in their station.

            I’m not a fan of the indication on Citadels. I think they should remove it.

            Regarding actual tethering itself, true, you can see where people are. But people don’t really use tethering as a long-term solution (it’s not safe anyway unless you’re somewhere as busy as the 1DQ undock, since a hostile can simply bump you out of range and blow you up).

            Now, I suppose you could make the argument that with a structure, it’s easier to see when someone returns to their keyboard (as in, you can scout the undock and when you see them undocking, you know they’re in-play again). But if someone really wants to maintain that level of discretion in their own system, don’t forget that fitting a cloak is still an option for them as well. Sometimes that level of paranoia is warranted: when I owned a Nyx I used to keep it parked in deep safespots with a cloak fit (yes, even in friendly space) rather than leave it in friendly POS… if you really want to be safe the only answer is to dock / park in a structure you control yourself, or to use a cloak and a safe.

            Sometimes I cloak-camp in my own space just to lurk on hostiles and determine the best way to bait them.

            Maybe I’m weird.

            January 24, 2018 at 5:27 am
        • Carvj94 Ganthrithor

          Cloakies can and probably will follow systems assuming they’re not afk, standing fleets don’t warp fast enough most of the time, people exploit resist holes as you should be tanking for the local rats your killing. Though your 100% right on the no afk ratting.

          January 22, 2018 at 1:51 pm
          • I mean, if they’re following you around they’re not an AFK cloaker, by definition, so requiring human interaction to stay cloaked would not change their behavior at all. I suppose I should add that I think bomber drops are a bunch of cheesy horseshit that should be removed from the game, so a lot of your response time concerns would probably be alleviated if people were unable to drop 50, 700-dps frigates on things and frag them in ten seconds.

            A lot of the ratters who die each day in Delve really are just AFK or semi-AFK (watching Netflix / flying while distracted). As a Delve resident, I deal with marauding hotdrop gangs and their legions of Prospect alts on a daily basis. If there’s someone in my usual PvE spot, I do some research and either decide to go PvEing anyway, or move to a different system to avoid them. If that system ends up with hostiles in local I repeat the process again. Undocking in EVE always involves some risk, but risk can be managed by engaging in a few, basic best practices:

            – Before you even log in, check your region’s zkillboard page and get a summary of recent activity
            – When you log in, start your intel-processing tool of choice, watch your in-game intel channels, and monitor them for a little while before you go PvEing– this will help build your mental picture of regional traffic
            – When you’re ready to go PvEing, take the time to research any hostiles in your vicinity: check their killboards and character info to see if you can glean any useful information
            – Again, if a particular system is camped, investigate alternative places to do your PvE activity
            – If you know there’s a giant bomber gang floating around waiting to hotdrop you, DON’T GO RATTING! Do something else!
            – Make sure you’re in a position to help others help you should you require assistance: be logged on to voice comms and in the correct channels, have your PvE characters installed in the correct standing fleets, have depots available and cynos fitted and fuel available where applicable (and, understand their limitations– time required for help to arrive, where you can and can’t light cynos, the fact that a depot needs to be deployed BEFORE you get attacked in order for it to work, etc)
            – Finally, if your player group doesn’t have things like intel channels, shared voice comms, standing fleets, etc… START THEM OR MOVE ORGS!

            There are literally so many ways to mitigate the risks posed by AFK cloakers in EVE. Basically if you die doing PvE it’s because you’re lazy, impatient, are part of a shitty / disorganized player group, or some combination of the above. Every single one of these factors is something you’re in control of. The cloaked ships are not the problem.

            January 23, 2018 at 1:06 am
          • Carvj94 Ganthrithor

            Your case is different from most people. Beyond the obvious benefits of being a goon in delve you also spend a lot more time than most people can prepping for isk making. Not saying your too serious or anything just that most people can’t put that much effort into a game or it becomes no fun. So they’re not so much lazy as your just more serious. Also your right that they’re not really afk cloakies when their actually killing though that’s only when there are lots potential targets to kill. In areas that aren’t nearly as active as delve they sit cloaked for hours checking dscan every once in a while waiting for a potential target to undock. That’s the afk problem honestly. The absolute safety in hostile space giving every advantage to the hunter cause he has a cloak. While limited even I’d be able to effectively harrass goons in delve if I flew my tengu down there and all of my Alliance is based in several wormholes. It’s unfair that I or anyone else can hunt with complete safety even with no base or backup within 30+ jumps. If they could just be scanable (warpin puts you 30km away or something) then I’d be happy. But as is there is no in game counter to deal with someone cloaked up in your system. I mean in the end you and your mates have to take extensive precautions but a guy in a T3 only has to get to your system (easy with covert cloak and bubble immunity) swap to a more combat oriented fit with a depot then he’s free to hunt.

            January 24, 2018 at 4:08 am
          • I do agree with you that AFK cloaking has been made stupidly easy. But that’s part of a broader trend of CCP giving players too many ultra-effective tools for all kinds of activities.

            Depots were a huge mistake. The whole notion that you can force people to make meaningful fitting choices goes to hell when you give everyone a trivially-expensive doodad that allows them to change fits whenever they want. I’ve done behind-enemy-lines cloaky work since forever ago, and when we’d deploy to REALLY remote regions, we used to coordinate so that a couple of people in our 50-ish person SIG would bring carriers into the deployment area (ninja fit) and stick them into obscure safespots. That way, if a member really fucked up and, say, burned out a critical ship module, they could fly to a carrier, get the cap pilot to log in for a moment, and swap the module for a spare from the carrier’s CHA. We used to carry replacements for all the usual suspects: prop mods, tackle gear, and a couple of spare cloaks. ~*This*~ is the kind of effort-level that should be involved in allowing players to re-fit their ships with no friendly stations nearby. The fact that anyone can refit super easily is awful, especially in the case of T3Cs where the ship’s most basic attributes and capabilities can be COMPLETELY changed. It’s not like refitting a ship at that point, it’s like changing to an entirely new hull.

            I don’t really agree about AFK cloakers in general, though. I don’t think that being able to cloak gives the cloaker any serious overall advantage over the defender. The two parties have information parity (they both know the other is present, neither necessarily knows where the other is, or what they’re flying / how it’s fit). The defender has home-field advantage in terms of facilities available (safe places to run to / defensive weapons they can utilize for cover, jump-bridges, cyno beacons, etc) and in terms of being able to summon reinforcements (by definition, there are more allies around for a player in their home space than for a solo or small-gang would-be marauder; there’ also the possibility to locals to field capital and supercapital ships easily and safely, which attackers usually can’t).

            In my experience, people who think AFK cloaking is overpowered have never spent time doing it themselves. If they did, they’d realize that being in the attacker’s position is not a gravy-train, and is fraught with its own difficulties and hazards. Although this might not be true if you’re able to camp Goons, who constantly present a significant number of absolutely easy kills. As a Goon, I can’t camp Goons, but I often wish that I could.

            January 24, 2018 at 5:56 am
          • Oh, and regarding the seriousness thing: it’s probably true that I take EVE more seriously than most people and invest an above-average amount of time and effort into not-dying. I’m thankful that’s the case, since if everyone did what I do, I wouldn’t have anyone to blow up.

            But I don’t think it follows that you can say other people ~*can’t*~ do what I do. Anyone can play like I play. The fact that most people don’t ~*want*~ to do that is fine– nobody is forcing them to do it. I don’t want to force them to do it. If people want to rock up to their PC, fire up EVE, immediately undock their Rorqual fleet and ping it into a collossal, then watch Netflix while their machines munch rocks, that’s fine! They just forfeit the right to whine about losing Excavators, or getting dread-bombed when that random neutral that was in local the whole time turns out to be Penifsmash’s alt in a cyno prospect, which they could easily have determined was the case by spending literally a couple of minutes browsing a killboard before undocking.

            That’s the thing: I know it looks like a long list of precautionary measures to take, but you can accomplish the vast majority of the things I mentioned in the previous post in ten minutes or less. It’s a matter of habit, not time-investment. Take it from someone with plenty of experience on both sides of the camping coin: there’s nothing wrong with hostiles having the ability to idle in your systems. Don’t complain about the campers when the campee’s have every opportunity to avoid dying.

            Are there some things I’d like to change? Sure! I’d nerf T3Cs, I’d remove depots, I’d eliminate the ability for blops BS to bridge bombers, etc etc etc. Does that mean there’s something wrong with cloaking? Nope.

            January 24, 2018 at 6:06 am
  • Alaric Faelen

    I don’t think ceptor nullification is game breaking, but should restrict the Ceptor’s combat effectiveness rather than enhance it.
    Don’t blame the ship. It’s the other game mechanics that the ship’s use is a response to that are the problem. FozzieSov is dogshit- and no amount of tinkering with ships will fix it or make it compelling game play. Gate camps are a thing and it’s the ability to create insta-locking ships that drove insta-warping counters to it. The cheapness and ease of bubbling gates is what drove the need for nullification in the first place. Insta-warp and nullification are simply hard-counters to other mechanics.
    However.
    Similar to a T3C’s- nullification subsystem, ceptor nullification should come in the form of a MODULE/RIG, perhaps preventing the fitting of tackle modules, weapons, or cynos. Most travel-fit ceptors are already pretty useless for combat, so institutionalize that with a module that essentially re-configures the ship to a non-combat role.
    Otherwise, give the inherent nullification to shuttles and make ceptors pure combat ships again.
    But I still support some easy form of nullification because I think it LOWERS risk averse behavior. Specifically never leaving high sec. By far the most dangerous part of any route is the borders between high and low/null. These are usually perma-camped. Having a cheap and easy ‘taxi’ that can survive the journey to content would be a big boon to getting people out of high sec and engaging the rest of the game. By making that taxi not viable for the content there though- is good game design. You still need to get the content ship out there (or buy it from locals), then get loot back to markets. But just being able to move around the map should not be such a barrier to content.
    (I’d rather focus on hunting down content consumers than preventing them from getting to the content in first place)

    January 21, 2018 at 5:47 pm
    • Robert Roxxor Alaric Faelen

      Excellent post.

      January 21, 2018 at 11:44 pm
    • You’re full of shit. I have done exclusively small-gang and solo PvP for about eight years now and never have I ever not been able to worm my way into a hostile nullsec region from low- or high-sec space. Systems are almost never perma-camped, and if they are there’s always an alternate route to your destination.

      What you mean is that you can’t rock up to a gate right at the instant you feel like traveling and blind-jump into it without a serious risk of getting blown up. If you can’t be bothered to scout yourself, wait out a gatecamping gang, or pursue an alternate route you don’t belong in nullsec. If I can move battleships around hostile regions then you can move around in something more vulnerable to interdiction than a nullified, insta-warp ceptor. Fuck off.

      January 22, 2018 at 12:04 am
      • Alaric Faelen Ganthrithor

        My my aren’t we a hostile little one? Have a cookie, calm down.
        Cool story, bro. But hint: no one cares about your self-fellating in a comments section about your leet skills. The adults were talking.

        January 22, 2018 at 1:38 am
        • So are you mad about the part where I know how to play EVE and you don’t, or the part where you’re wrong and have no way to defend your indefensible position regarding ease of travel in EVE online?

          January 22, 2018 at 5:40 am
          • brennan Ganthrithor

            You said earlier people still get pipe bombed in captors… I was blown up in a sub 2 second captor by a very well placed and timed bomb. Maybe you’re the one who’s not good enough to adapt ganthrinor

            January 22, 2018 at 10:18 am
          • To put things in perspective, stopping an interceptor pilot requires the other party to deploy multiple battleships (usually 3 at a time are required to blow up anything but a shitfit inty). So you’re looking at what, half- to three-quarters of a billion ISK worth of spaceship? That also happen to be the most annoying subcaps in the game to move anywhere (thanks, Fozzie). And even then, any pilot who’s not a complete moron (warping directly between gates with a bunch of hostiles in local in an era where corp bookmarks
            and gate-proximate Citadels give everyone easy access to on-grid perches) will be unaffected.

            So I have to outspend the traveler by more than 10-to-1, traverse half the galaxy with several of the slowest, clumsiest ships in the game, position them perfectly, time the bombs perfectly, and even then there’s literally nothing that can be done about anyone who puts even the ~*slightest*~ bit of effort into not getting blown up? Hardly balanced gameplay if you ask me.

            January 23, 2018 at 12:34 am
          • Wait what? Why would I spend days waiting to get through a gate camp? Time is precious when you have kids. Not all of us are unemployed layabouts who can freeload on their parents and just spend life playing eve. For the record running gatecamps through hostile space is pretty much my main role in the game. Without the interceptor it would take extra precious time that scouts generally don’t always have the luxury of having when you need to get somewhere fast. The interceptor solves that problem for scouts. We get to where we need to be without the hassle of spending days looking for the opportunity to run a gate camp.

            January 25, 2018 at 4:21 am
          • Eli Eli

            Also it’s a sad fact of life that those closest to London will nearly always catch an Australian who isn’t in a sub-2 second align time ship, especially if they’re in a Malus Navy issue. For that reason alone I love the interceptor the way it is. The 4 second delay time for signal to get to the other side of the world means you’re already dead by the time you’ve uncloaked in this game.

            January 25, 2018 at 4:26 am
          • You’re not being picked-on in that regard: anyone flying on any connection with a greater-than-two-second align time can be caught…

            The solution is to fly a scouting ship– nobody can stop you from breaking gate-cloak and turning on a covops cloak… people used to do it all the time, before interceptors made covops largely obsolete for things other than exploration and probing.

            January 28, 2018 at 6:16 am
          • I’m not sure what to tell you? Learn how to fly a covops or play a different game? Why should you get to instantly and effortly blow past a roadblock that a bunch of other players are spending their hard-earned leisure hours maintaining? Is your single man-minute worth more than their fifteen man-minutes?

            EVE has traditionally been a game where geography mattered, and where choices had consequences. It used to be the case that deciding to jump into a gatecamp was a risk you could take if you felt it was worthwhile– you manned-up, hopped in a covops or bomber, jumped the gate, and tried to dodge the tacklers. Your ability to out-maneuver campers with manual piloting determined your effectiveness as a scout. Sometimes it didn’t pan out, and you got blown up: THAT’S EVE.

            You new players with your entitled-ass attitudes are why this game has gone to shit. “Give me an invulnerable ship because I don’t want to undertake any risk at all and don’t have time to learn to play properly” is not a good attitude. If your kids’ time demands prevent you from learning to fly a ship manually, leave the scouting to someone else.

            I work a real job, and I find time to slip past camped systems. You can too: just leave your clients running when you’re away and check back on them when you have some free time. You’ll find the gate open eventually, even if it takes a few days. Alternatively, take an alternate route or take the risk of attempting to run the camp. But don’t sit here and whine about how you don’t have time for EVE so you need a risk-free way of circumventing other people’s traps. If you have that little time, play another game or play in highsec or something. The entire virtual world doesn’t revolve around your time constraints.

            January 28, 2018 at 6:27 am
          • Mate are you sure not just another troll? I can and do fly covert ops ships all the time. This isn’t about whether you’re any good at flying other ships and I’m an good at it. It’s the purpose of an interceptor. An interceptor isn’t just a taxi service it has a strategic role. If you’re crying as a gate camper that you can’t catch a fairly weak in combat ship whose main task is scouting then man up and stop crying. Better still go do what welp squad do and you know, actually hunt for your prey instead of being a lazy star who can only catch folks by stationary gate camps. Get out there and fight properly on roams. I’ve never really a had much respect for gate campers, they’re a bit like school yard bullies, only any good st the game because safety in numbers. Fleet fights and solo are where the real pvp’ers Re at. The rest are just try hards who never take a risk because they never go into enemy space but sit pretty on gate camps.

            January 28, 2018 at 11:37 pm
          • Hi, I used to help run Goonswarm’s Blackops group. I’ve been living almost exclusively in enemy space these last ten years. Thanks for playing!

            Interceptors were not designed as scouting ships– they’ve historically been positioned as fast tacklers, which is why prior to nullification they were a niche ship only flown by a handful of players. You know what ships were actually designed with scouting and surveillance in mind? Covert ops frigates. All of which you’d know if you’d played this game for more than six fucking weeks.

            Now get the fuck off my lawn.

            January 29, 2018 at 1:50 am
          • With a shitty align time that they have, they’re easy to uncloak if you know you’re any good at gate camping. Mind you, I’m pretty good at covert ops cloak frigates and get through most times. But the interceptor with a cloak on it, is just so much easier and faster. Convenience is always nice in a game where people have all grown up and are settling down and don’t have the free time like previous years. I can’t see how the interceptor is overpowered. They come to Delve all the time and die very quickly…

            January 29, 2018 at 4:48 am
          • I agree with you: I use interceptors all the time right now as scouts where I would’ve used a covops (or more likely, a bomber) in the past. It absolutely is easier and faster (and cheaper, actually).

            I’m just saying that’s not a good place for the game to be from a balance perspective. There’s no give-and-take involved in ship selection anymore. For basically any use case CCP have given players a ship that’s basically perfect for the job.

            January 29, 2018 at 5:16 am
          • Actually, I took the time to re-read your posts above. There’s one very interesting point you make which I think is totally relevant, the fozzie changes to small fast locking ships. Perhaps those need to change before interceptors get their toys taken off them first? I could get behind that. I know Asher hates nullification on interceptors too, but with the LSH factor (London location, fast locking cancerous ships, etc) perhaps the issue isn’t the interceptor, perhaps it’s these other ships that are the problem? The balance needs to happen where you get through with an inty 80 – 90% of the time and die 10% or 20% of the time.

            January 29, 2018 at 5:01 am
          • Dealing with cancer ships (especially T3Ds, which were a massive mistake) is a huge part of what needs to happen. In ye olde days, you always stood a good chance of surviving a gatecamp in an inty because the things that could lock / tackle you couldn’t damage you, and the things that could damage you couldn’t lock you. You couldn’t always get past a camp, but you could almost always jump in, scout the camp, then crash the gate and fuck off.

            January 29, 2018 at 5:13 am
  • Johnny Crowe

    As the CEO of the legendary someotherfags I take offense. 😉

    January 21, 2018 at 9:45 pm
  • Robert Roxxor

    Gatecamps, instalock and scrams are the problem. The ceptor just poses a solution, maybe the wrong one.

    If the barrier of entering more dangerous space (from high to low/null or from known to unknown) is so drastically high, basically a 0% chance of not dying when entering such a system, than what do you think people are gonna do?
    They either stay in safe space, or enter with a ship they are sure to slip through any hostilities they may encounter.

    Maybe there would be much more “content” if people actually had a chance to flee/evade attackers. Right now lock means death and who’s gonna risk that?

    January 21, 2018 at 11:56 pm
    • There was a time before interceptors where people scouted and traveled around in bombers and covops frigates. Covops allow a pilot to easily bypass any gatecamp that doesn’t have a dictor, and still allows them a fighting chance at running camps that do have a dictor. Is there still a chance that a skilled set of gatecampers (dictor pilot + competent fast decloaking ships) could catch them? Yes. But it’s not as though in the pre-Fozzieceptor era people were unable to move around in EVE.

      The reality is that there’s a large contingent of players just aren’t accustomed to any form of adversity in the game anymore. The moment they have to start doing things like pre-travel planning (looking at a starmap for kill activity / system population counts to spot camps and / or plan alternate routes, for example) or make and use bookmarks (gasp: the horror of having to make your own perches), they start whining. I mean, look at the number of people who die even in travel-ceptors to smartbombing ships or because they’re too stupid to fit their inty for a sub-2sec align.

      Also I have no fucking idea where you guys in this comment thread are getting the idea that lowsec and nullsec systems are 100% impassable to any ship but a travel-ceptor. Nullsec and lowsec space are mostly empty with the exception of a few heavily populated areas, and even systems that are regular hotspots have times of day where they sit un-guarded. Where this, “basically 0% chance of not dying” attitude comes from I have no idea.

      January 22, 2018 at 6:08 am
      • I have one reply to this, Nema/Hier gate. Only ship that can get through there alive, without pure blind luck or pure genius, is an inty that’s very low signature and under 2 second align time. If It was a 90% chance of getting through with other ships, I’d take the risk. Currently, it’s about a 5% chance of getting through, for experienced pilots.

        January 24, 2018 at 5:34 am
        • How many days have you spent scouting it waiting for a gap between camps and or have you tried going around using a different route?

          Don’t lie. I’ll know.

          January 24, 2018 at 6:11 am
        • Arrendis Eli

          I dunno, I go through there on the semi-regular in a Force Recon w/warp stabs.

          January 25, 2018 at 8:52 pm
          • Eli Arrendis

            Perhaps the regular guys from LSH aren’t on when you are? There’s two guys that live in London who are remote boost instalockers and very few make it through. Just look at zkillboard and you’ll see the billions of isk a week they’re killing. They have hics, Malaus navy issues, remote sebo’s several inty’s and a few carriers on standby when they gate camp.

            January 26, 2018 at 7:58 pm
      • viceroy Ganthrithor

        You can’t fit to beat insta-lockers AND fit to beat SBs. Sure, once you are in NPC null or low, mostly you are fine, if you have a cloak. In someone else’s sov you get hunted more often than not. Getting to and from null via k-space is non-trivial. WHs have their own pleasures.

        January 24, 2018 at 12:13 pm
        • I don’t know what to tell you, man: I moved a battlecruiser from highsec into Horde space (some of the busiest nullsec outside of Delve) a few weeks ago with no problem at all. All I had to do was wait for a time of day when EC- wasn’t camped and then I scouted myself the rest of the way in with a Prowler. Neither of those ships is exactly known for their gatecamp invulnerability…

          January 24, 2018 at 6:55 pm
          • viceroy Ganthrithor

            Yeah, if you can wait for hours and have two accounts to scout in a BR for a one off journey it is absolutely possible to reduce your risk and do it as you describe. I’m not sure I’d want to run a BC or a BR in and out of Tribute or wherever on a regular basis though.

            It’s all catchable including ceptors. I dont mind it being so easy to rack up the scan strength to reduce targeting time to two ticks but I do resent the same two ship group also having total local nullification against every ship in the game.

            January 24, 2018 at 9:49 pm
          • Interceptors are not catchable. There is no way to argue this point. The only possible way to kill a travel ceptor is to smartbomb it (or boson it, I guess, if you feel like deploying a 100b isk ship to kill a frigate), and even this is reliant on the inty pilot opting to warp directly between gates. Any pilot who uses a bounce of some kind will get through. There’s no way to stop them. Dead inties are 100% pilot error.

            January 25, 2018 at 12:51 am
          • viceroy Ganthrithor

            Hmm… no, I don’t think that it is correct. Willing to be put right if I am wrong but the Claw has the lowest sig. radius at 30 and even with four Shadow Serpentis inertial stabs (at 200m isk each) and T2 low friction nozzle joint rigs align time only comes down to 1.67s. My understanding is that this means my example Claw will get to warp in 3 server ticks (two for the align to warp command to execute and warp will begin on tick 3). If my understanding is correct then any serious fast-locking gatecamp ought to be able to lock and catch it in two ticks (given alertness and reasonable ping). I have personally lost slower-to-align SB-protected ceptors to fast lockers, the guys that caught me would I am confident have caught my example Claw – even with Nomad or Halo implants. There are camps around that can catch any ceptor with any fit.

            January 25, 2018 at 1:36 pm
          • Arrendis viceroy

            Your understanding is flawed. When you decloak, it’s a tick before they see you, because their client doesn’t get the information until that tick happens. CCP’s even said (at FF a couple of years back) that unless you’re dealing with someone with a good connection who lives near the data farm, under 2s align can’t be caught unless you screw up.

            January 25, 2018 at 8:55 pm
          • viceroy Arrendis

            Ok, thank you for the reply. I will try to find the FF comment for my reference. Long story short though: it is still possible for my sub-2s example Claw (which is the extreme example and costs about 900m isk and will still die hard to SBs) to be caught by an insta-locker with good ping.

            If it takes a tick for my Claw to appear on grid for the camper after I drop gate cloak by starting my effective 2s (2 tick) align then that means that, provided the camper can lock in the second tick after cloak drops and has pre-fired their scram/point, the server will check to see if the Claw can warp at the start of the third tick after loss of cloak but, as the pre-fired scram/point will be applying from the start of the third tick, warp will not be allowed.

            It’s an extreme example but is my understanding of the mechanics correct?

            January 26, 2018 at 7:28 am
          • Arrendis viceroy

            It takes a tick for you to decloak. It then takes a minimum (for anyone not fairly close to London) of 0.5s (commsats are 0.25 light-seconds up, signal’s gotta go up, then down) for anyone’s computer to know it should tell them you’re there.

            Then they have to react. They can tell the machine to lock you and pre-activate their point. 0.5s for that information to get to the servers (minimum).

            This tells the server that they’re locking you, and have a module activation queued. If this lock *completes* before the next tick happens, they get you.

            Also, the server is rounding off your math. You don’t start decloaking at the start of a tick. You start decloaking during the tick, and the server counts that whole tick. That’s why sometimes you’ll have the time to see yourself decloak and pivot, and sometimes you won’t visibly begin to decloak until you’re already in warp. In the same ship. (I’ve got me a sub-2s align Claw, too).

            Basically, they have 1s, maxmimum, minus lock time and the speed of their graphics card, to react to you.

            January 26, 2018 at 2:36 pm
          • Anything that has a warp time lock target > target locked > activate module sequence.

            It sounds like catching travel-ceptors might theoretically be possible if you live geographically-proximate to the EVE server and have a low-latency connection to the server, but basically unless you live in London ~*and*~ have a pile of RSBs on you ~*and*~ have a super-fast reaction time there’s no way you’re locking a ship with a sub-2sec align time. If you’re an ANZAC (or anyone else with a shitty, high-latency connection) you might not even catch ships with a sub-3sec align…

            But don’t take my word for it: go out and give it a go. All you need is something like a Stiletto with a couple of sebos (and maybe some scan-res rigs) to hit a scan resolution that ~*should*~ be able to lock an inty in less than two seconds (on paper). I think you’ll find that it doesn’t work in practice.

            January 28, 2018 at 6:09 am
  • I’ll give up my infinite cloak when you give up your ability to tether / dock up and AFK in safety.

    January 22, 2018 at 12:11 am
  • No ship in EVE should be immune to bubbles. Nullification is a stupid idea. People complaining about how easy it is to bubble camp are clearly people who’ve never flown an interdictor and/or are in denial about how their single man-hour of non-effort travel attempts should be validated with a successful outcome while a hostile gang’s fifteen man-hours of patient waiting followed by furious clicking to bubble and decloak a target while fighting EVE’s shitty UI and horrendous lag should all be for nothing.

    There’s a reason everyone in EVE is so rich now: making money is too easy, losing money is too easily avoided. Interceptors are fucking cancer, as are citadels and jump freighters and blackops bridges and stront-less structure timers and just about every other form of corner-cutting horseshit that’s been put into this game to dilute the gameplay and keep the inept keen.

    January 22, 2018 at 12:22 am
    • brennan Ganthrithor

      black ops adds risk to the game. To the receiving end of course 🙂

      January 22, 2018 at 2:13 am
      • Blackops bridges are just about as stupid as nullified interceptors, but in favor of the attacker instead of the defender. A pile of 25-50 stealth bombers costs jack shit to buy or operate, yet can frag capital ships in seconds and is basically impossible to interdict or counter in any meaningful way. It’s bad gameplay design. Risk exposure needs to cut both ways.

        January 22, 2018 at 5:36 am
        • brennan Ganthrithor

          Yeah… but they can be avoided if you’re not an idiot. Like align when you see a baddy in local. When caps get bombed it’s usually because the cap pilot was an idiot. Black ops is the best and only way to fight asymmetrically in eve.

          January 22, 2018 at 10:20 am
          • There are aspects of blackops gameplay that I like, I just don’t like the way they interact with bombers. Dropping blackops battleships themselves is dope: if an attacker is willing to field a lot of expensive and fairly-flimsy ships, there’s the potential for big payoff (strong element of surprise, good damage output, etc). What I hate is the ability to instead throw bombers at the target, which means the attacker doesn’t really have to bring anything valuable to the table at all: a bridging blackops is very safe, and bomber losses are trivial.

            If I were me, I’d remove bombers’ ability to take blackops bridges. I have no problem with blackops’ ability to bridge covops frigates, blockade runners, or expensive combat cruisers, but allowing them to fling massive blobs of 700-dps, cheap-as-chips frigate hulls across an entire region is silly overpowered, as evidenced by the fact that it’s the tactic of choice of literally every “elite PvP” group in the game right now.

            January 23, 2018 at 12:48 am
    • brennan Ganthrithor

      get rid of local and you can keep all the other stuff… local is the biggest risk adversion from making money.

      January 22, 2018 at 2:14 am
  • brennan

    goon allies are included in that number… 30k when all is said and done. The north has equal numbers with GOTG, Horde, and whateverotherfags are up there and they act just like the imperium with the blue doughnut its just less official

    January 22, 2018 at 2:09 am
  • Frans Bovens

    So true, remember the days a stop buble prevented a ceptor too scout the other side of the gate. Or leave a ship behind to get agro, jumo back in. Everyhting is scouted now, leading to risk adverce behaviour, killing roaming, camping and with the lack, alos the lack of countering. Booooring ffs

    January 22, 2018 at 10:24 am
    • brennan Frans Bovens

      Camping is hardly dead. Interceptors are just one kind of ship. I’ve gotten plenty of kills while at a gate camp. The thing killing roaming is response… goons just doomsday you… and the north will call on 150 people to counter your 40 man jackdaw roam. That’s no fun

      January 22, 2018 at 11:08 am
      • Interceptors drastically reduce the enjoyability of gatecamping, it must be said. Before you used to at least be able to have a go at almost every ship moving through space (bombers and covops would often get away, of course, but it was worth trying for them). Now you mostly just sit there and watch interceptors flit by. Anecdotally, I’d say that probably between 80 and 90% of traffic through gates in nullsec these days consists of inties, travel T3s, or yachts. A lot of times, it feels like there’s only one ship every hour or two that comes through a gate that is a decent target (IE: worth more than a million ISK, not bait, and not nullified + cloaky / insta-warp).

        I still gatecamp anyway because I enjoy it, but it’s not really a rational or impactful way to spend time as an EVE player anymore. All the actual action and glory goes to blops-bridge gangs and their legions of hunter cyno alts these days.

        January 23, 2018 at 12:27 am
  • Bill

    You smoothly side-step the kinds of risk aversion that are just as game breaking. You ever try to fly a scout through 100 km of bubbles while targets take their sweet time safeing up? Not dictor bubbles, anchored bubbles. I have. Nullified interceptors solve that.

    The most pernicious form of risk aversion of all though has nothing to do with game mechanics. It’s the kind that drives players to form alliances with hundreds of corps and tens of thousands of characters. While that form persists, those with any balls at all could use all the help they can get.

    Sure, people do incursions because they are relatively safe. They mine and rat in Delve for the same reason. I take it you would like Delve to be the only option, not just an option. I can appreciate why you would. At the same time I can see where some folks would like to play the game without paying tribute to its self-styled overlords.

    January 22, 2018 at 1:07 pm
  • Blakes

    Litterally the first thing i do when i get to nul is buy a ceptor,

    January 23, 2018 at 4:47 pm
  • viceroy

    Must say I disagree with the OP about travel ceptors. You can either fit to beat smart bombing battleships OR you can fit to *try* to beat insta-lockers. You certainly can’t do both. I know this as I have lost ceptors to gate camps because of this. In fact the advantage is massively with the campers rather than the traveller. It is really easy to fit a ceptor, let alone a TD3 or a Gnosis (like those bastards in Tribute :P) to lock at super low speeds. It is impossible to fit a ceptor to beat the range of threats out there and very difficult/expensive to fit a ceptor to align in less than 2 secs, which, as I understand it, translates to a 3 second warp time. Which is ample time for an GOOD, well organised gate camp to ruin your day. Even a properly fit Hecate aligning in less than 1sec will still need 2 secs to warp, in ticks, unless I am mistaken.

    Honestly the whole piece is just another whine about not everyone wanting to operate in null the whole time. Incursions are not risk free. They take a considerable investment to run properly and give whole communities of players a way to experience high-end PVE and get their feet wet in fleet activity without getting into the whole sov / war dec issue that some null seccers also constantly whine about.

    Everyone needs different aspects of the game to be there so they can move around at different stages of their evolution as a player *in accordance with how they want to play the game*. It’s so boring to hear one set of players agitating for everyone else to be forced to play the game in a way that suits that one set.

    If the OP had any integrity they’d admit that the post is just PVP out of game and nothing whatever to do with improving Eve as a whole. Just a thought…

    January 24, 2018 at 12:06 pm
    • You are so utterly full of shit it’s unbelievable:

      [Ares, Taxi Scout]

      Damage Control II
      Inertial Stabilizers II
      Inertial Stabilizers II
      Power Diagnostic System II

      Medium F-S9 Regolith Compact Shield Extender
      Medium F-S9 Regolith Compact Shield Extender
      EM Ward Amplifier II

      Prototype Cloaking Device I
      Gatling Pulse Laser I /OFFLINE
      Salvager I /OFFLINE

      Small Low Friction Nozzle Joints II
      Small Core Defense Field Extender I

      Standard S x1
      Sensor Booster II x1
      Warp Disruptor II x1
      5MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive x1
      Nanofiber Internal Structure II x1
      Scan Resolution Script x1
      Mobile Depot x1

      This ship insta-warps, and will tank up to four 8-bomb smartbombing battleships. It also contains a complete in-field refit for tackling if you feel like being combat-effective, an ammo-less small gun for aggressing targets if required, and a salvager because why the fuck not?

      Just stop it with trying to defend inties. They’re ridiculously annoying, overpowered garbage. I use this fit all the time to both re-position my blackops characters and as cheap, disposable scouts. You’re high as fuck if you think these ships haven’t made traveling in EVE absurdly easy.

      January 29, 2018 at 2:13 am
      • viceroy Ganthrithor

        I will have a look at your fit when I get a minute. It looks like its sig radius might make it a bit lockable but I don’t know what the align time would be. I’m ok with one class of ship being very hard to catch if it’s fit right. Not gonna stop defending inties :p I like being to travel a bit with some chance of making it to my destination. Occasionally fun to irritate campers too.

        January 29, 2018 at 11:14 pm
        • Yeah, but this is my point: that ship as-fit is not “hard to catch”: it is literally impossible to catch. Nobody can lock it. Unless I warp straight from gate to gate in a system full of hostiles and land on a pre-set group of 4+ smartbombing battleships, and they time their bomb activations ~*just right*~ I am literally invulnerable. If I use bookmarks, I’m 100% invulnerable. It’s stupid: they might as well just put a console command into the game that lets you teleport around in your pod, or allow people to keep unlimited jumpclones and clone-jump every ten to fifteen minutes. That’s essentially what travelceptors enable.

          January 30, 2018 at 8:31 pm
  • imsosly

    get ganked in 15 seconds or less. lose everything you earned over the last month… Yeah, I can see where risk-aversion plays in…

    January 27, 2018 at 12:00 am