Imperium vs PanFam: A Week Of War – Part 2

Moomin Amatin 2019-06-05

Header art by Redline XIII

Welcome to our summary of week two of the war between the Imperium and PanFam. If you missed the first week summary, you can find it here, but in case you do not want to read that or simply want a refresher, I will try to give you that now.

The Imperium spent the first week mainly conducting move operations from their homeland of Delve. The vanguard forces of the Imperium set to work shooting structures in the forward staging area in and around KQK.

Meanwhile PanFam formed when they felt like it but did not seemingly try to interfere with any Imperium move ops.

The Main Events from 2019-05-25 to 2019-05-31.

For a large part of the week it was business as usual for both sides. The Imperium continued to shoot structures, set timers for iHubs, and generally set about tearing down a region. PanFam at points would form fleets to hinder the Imperium in their efforts. But generally the flow of war in favour of the Imperium to make continued progress in their campaign objectives.

System-wide cyno jammers are a major factor in the defense of Tribute. With such structures in place, the defenders can dictate the use of capitals in most engagements. Cyno jammers are, however, reliant on a system having an active iHub. So, iHubs are a central part of the campaign objectives for Imperium forces to enable them to use their capital fleets to greater effect.

Throughout the week, the Imperium continued to hit iHubs to good effect. With each iHub destroyed, new opportunities present themselves to The Imperium capital fleet. You can keep track of timers being set within New Eden with this very handy site.

There were minor scuffles between the warring factions, and a larger fight broke out early on the morning of May 31. The short story is that PanFam successfully defended a key iHub timer.

Perhaps of more interest during the week is the continued oddness surrounding the meta.

The Meta So Far

Narratives are important things for war—They help in both victory and defeat. At this time, the narrative from the Imperium has been pretty consistent. They intend to at least ruin Tribute for PanFam, and then think about if PanFam have suffered enough for them to call it a job well done and head back home to Delve. Pretty simple stuff and unlikely to change for the time being.

The narrative from PanFam, however, seems to have been a lot more complex. There appear to be a number of different approaches that have at least been tried, all with varying degrees of success.

Gon Bad, Grr Gon, Hat Gon

This has been tried but to far less effect than has been seen historically. During the Casino War, this was all that was needed to get others to fight the supposed evilness of the Imperium. This time around it is less than convincing. The Legacy, Dead Coalition, FIRE Coalition and others all seem to be in agreement that they would rather have a working relationship with The Imperium than any member of PanFam.

Help Us Reddit, You’re Our Only Hope

A number of posts have been spotted that try to appeal to the Reddit crowd to come and assist the outnumbered and outgunned PanFam. Be it in the form of being on the front lines in Tribute or by hitting the Imperium in their homelands of Delve, these seem to be framed in one of two ways. The first is that big money can be made hitting the industrial might of the Imperium. The second is that Goons are too strong, and that only All of Eve™ working together can stop them from ruining the game.

PanFam are Nomadic Warriors

Other commentators will be quick to state that PanFam are nomadic and have no need for sovereign space. It will take little effort though to see that this claim is not an honest one. PanFam have held sov now for many years, with some regions being under their control for an absolute age in New Eden terms.

PanFam are Spartans

Finally we have the idea that PanFam can and do fight while being vastly outnumbered. Odds of two, three or even four to one do not deter them in the slightest. With their superior pilot abilities and tactics such fights are easily within their grasp.

Making sense of the Real Numbers

PanFam seem very determined to show the rest of New Eden that they are outnumbered by the forces of the Imperium. Often you will see numbers about how the Imperium is so much larger in character count than Pandemic Horde, Pandemic Legion and Northern Coalition Dot. Yet in almost the same breath PanFam, will talk about all the krabs that are in The Imperium.

So in order to get a better sense of the real numbers involved I decided to do some very basic math.

For The Imperium you have:

GSF – 34069
Bastion – 3171
TNT – 3591
Lawn – 1417
The Initiative – 5222
PBLRD – 1084

For a total of 48554 characters.

For PanFam you have:

Pandemic Horde – 17199
Pandemic Legion – 2328
Northern Coalition – 3874
Northern Associates – 177
Rate My Ticks – 4355
Skill Urself – 1238
Hard Knocks Associates – 2808
Hard Knocks Citizens – 1039
Brothers of Tangra – 5517
SLYCE – 1667
Triumvirate – 459
Circle of Hell – 1771

Summing up to 42432 characters.

Quibbling about the numbers here is going to be pretty easy to do. The effort I went to in order to establish who should be on each respective sides list was pretty minimal. The main point of the exercise is to simply show that when you see comments about The Imperium being 10 times the size of PanFam forces it is far from true.

To better put this into some sort of context, the Imperium during The Casino War fought outnumbered for many months. At most, the Imperium could claim to have 25000 members during the Casino War compared to the 60000 plus of the Money Badger Coalition.

Something has to stick

With so many diverse narratives being put forward by those favourable to PanFam, you have to wonder why that is. Is this a lack of direction from the PanFam leadership? Or is it hoping that one of the narratives will gain traction that PanFam can then throw its weight behind? There is also the possibility that it simply gives PanFam wiggle room when it comes to objectives. PanFam initially stated that they would let all of Tribute burn. But the actions of PanFam suggest that some members are keen to fight. Is this just a case of letting enough narratives float that PanFam can please all of their members?

Tenal being Hit

Finally we need to talk a little bit about the region of Tenal. Tenal is controlled mainly by PanFam members Pandemic Legion and Northern Coalition Dot. But this is changing rapidly as Dead Coalition forces make a move into the region.

Hostilities between Dead Coalition and PanFam started after Dead Coalition made a peace deal with the Imperium last year. The deal was for the benefit of all PanFam members as well as Dead Coalition, but PanFam were unhappy with the deal and tried to invade Branch as soon as Imperium forces returned to Delve. This attempt failed badly and PanFam withdrew.

Co2 had stated that they would take Branch or die. Co2 ended up dying and folding into Pandemic Horde.

Sort Dragon had already expressed his disdain for how his coalition had been treated and backstabbed by PanFam. Now it seems that Dead Coalition is looking to acquire new territory at the cost of PanFam. Many timers have already been set and we will soon see if PanFam intend to offer any defence to the region and their renters who live there.

INN will continue to bring you updates and continued coverage of the Tribute war as it progresses.

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Comments

  • Parv

    Fair and impartial news reporting as always.

    June 5, 2019 at 7:21 pm
  • Poleman

    Not even adding everything you possibly could to panfam side and substracting from the goon side you could make it even lol

    June 5, 2019 at 9:21 pm
    • phuzz Poleman

      They were trying to point out that PanFam aren’t “outnumbered ten-to-one”. Instead it’s roughly equal.

      Especially as PH are elite pvp and gewns are all krabs right?

      June 6, 2019 at 12:15 pm
  • Rammel Kas

    …aand we just took the total over 1 Trillion isk in dead NC and related structures….

    June 5, 2019 at 9:35 pm
    • Moomin Amatin Rammel Kas

      But but but many of those structures were not owned by PanFam, and if they were they were not rigged, and and and they had nothing in them anyway!!!!

      :-).

      June 6, 2019 at 6:14 am
      • Rammel Kas Moomin Amatin

        Ahh but if they had PanFam, any of them… on the ACL to at least take tether they can’t be seen as non-combatants in any sense can they now. And would certainly count as valid targets for asset safety. So these count as PanFam losses too.

        If you’re in space, not blue to us and in null or lowsec… guess what sunshine? You get shot!

        June 6, 2019 at 10:17 am
  • Seraph IX Basarab

    Northern Associates – 177
    Rate My Ticks – 4355
    Skill Urself – 1238
    Hard Knocks Associates – 2808
    Hard Knocks Citizens – 1039
    Brothers of Tangra – 5517
    SLYCE – 1667
    Triumvirate – 459
    Circle of Hell – 1771

    These are either not PanFam or are just renters.

    June 5, 2019 at 10:03 pm
    • J Moravia Seraph IX Basarab

      Why exactly wouldn’t you include PanFam’s renters in the list of people who might be expected to form up and defend territory occupied by PanFam’s renters?

      June 6, 2019 at 1:16 am
      • Seraph IX Basarab J Moravia

        Because renters won’t unless they’re some alt of someone who actually is in those alliances. Come on man you’ve been around long enough to know this is nonsense. On any BR you literally have numbers in single digits from groups like Rate my Ticks etc. This is shameless spin.

        June 6, 2019 at 1:25 am
        • stuart hyatt Seraph IX Basarab

          First he undervalued the The Imperium then he trys to puff up panfam lol After he talk shit about people do it on reddit.

          June 6, 2019 at 1:45 am
          • Xolve stuart hyatt

            Seraph IX Backstab- the PanFam defender.

            What!?

            June 12, 2019 at 8:58 pm
        • Garreth Vlox Seraph IX Basarab

          He demands that goons add TAPI to the numbers and calls them pets but refuses to acknowledge that PANFAM pets should count as well…. typical northern crybaby spin BS.

          June 6, 2019 at 7:28 am
          • Seraph IX Basarab Garreth Vlox

            Where did I demand we add TAPI?

            June 6, 2019 at 3:34 pm
        • J Moravia Seraph IX Basarab

          Seraph Basarab logic:
          – Do not count members of the alliances in whose territory the fighting is actually taking place
          – Do count every single member of the Imperium even though we know not all of them deployed
          – Claim the northerners are outnumbered
          – Accuse the other people of “spin”
          – Fart into your hands and cry

          June 6, 2019 at 11:11 am
          • Seraph IX Basarab J Moravia

            Tribute is held by NCdot and PL fren. Not WERMT or BoT…who again are mostly renters who will have minimal if any role in any actual conflict.

            I’ve never said who to count on the Imperium side. Nor had I ever made mention of adding TEST. Can you have an honest conversation for once?

            June 6, 2019 at 3:30 pm
        • Guilford Australis Seraph IX Basarab

          PanFam themselves supported the narrative that they plant all their krab alts into their own renter alliances and The Imperium – both scenarios that undercut your argument… or, rather, PanFam’s argument, which you are slavishly parroting on their behalf.

          This isn’t the first time the clever geniuses of PanFam’s propaganda arm locked themselves into a self-defeating narrative by spreading conspiracy theories that end up contradicting the messaging they want people to take seriously. Pandemic Legion’s Elite Reddit PVP position for years has been, “The developers are in our pockets, so it’s pointless to oppose us. Also, you should support our crusade against The Imperium because the odds are eternally against us in spite of… *cough*… the devs supposedly being in our pockets.”

          June 6, 2019 at 12:55 pm
          • Seraph IX Basarab Guilford Australis

            PanFam does not “support the narrative that they plant all their krab alts into their own renter alliances.” Having been in PanFam I can say that some do but most simply do not. They use their characters within NCdot or PL to krab. I’d say easily over 90 percent of renter characters are just that…renters. Not members.

            lol PanFam has a “propaganda arm?” You seriously over estimate their meta competence or interest.I don’t know who is “running around spreading conspiracy theories” but it seems to me this is mostly your own projection.

            >Pandemic Legion’s Elite Reddit PVP position for years has been, “The developers are in our pockets, so it’s pointless to oppose us. Also, you should support our crusade against The Imperium because the odds are eternally against us in spite of… *cough*… the devs supposedly being in our pockets.”

            lol I’ve literally never heard a PL individual make this claim.

            June 6, 2019 at 3:28 pm
          • Guilford Australis Seraph IX Basarab

            Your personal observations are irrelevant, and this very discussion underlines the reality that no one takes anything PanFam claims seriously because of the notoriety they have earned for themselves over the years through their incompetent and self-contradictory messaging… as I correctly stated above.

            June 6, 2019 at 3:42 pm
          • Seraph IX Basarab Guilford Australis

            You spew misinformation and projection and then use your own actions as justifications for your conclusions. So because you can’t figure out what’s actually going on…it’s on someone else.

            June 6, 2019 at 3:45 pm
          • Guilford Australis Seraph IX Basarab

            While we’re on the subject of misinformation and projection, I have a question. Do you, an EN24 writer who claims objectivity in reporting the news of EVE, think it is professional or ethical to come on to a competing news site and hijack articles to fight out your petty grievances in the comments, insulting the other commenters while you’re at it? I don’t particularly think it is, and judging by the comments on your EN24 articles, your readers already have concerns about your credibility.

            June 6, 2019 at 4:07 pm
          • Seraph IX Basarab Guilford Australis

            Oh no, now pointing out how you are dishonest is “hijacking” and “attacking” and lacking “professional ethics.” I guess when you can’t argue the merits one has to fall back to whining that someone is being mean. Don’t worry the moderators will soon show up to give you warm milk and cookies.

            June 6, 2019 at 4:11 pm
          • J Moravia Seraph IX Basarab

            When a single commenter has roughly 40% of all the comments on an article, yes, that’s hijacking. That’s you determining to have your narrative heard even if it means you have to account for nearly as many comments as everyone else put together. (And this is your MO on every single article on which you choose to comment; I’ve never read a single thread where you made one or two comments to state your position and then disappeared. You engage in a petulant slapping match with *each and every reader* who says the slightest thing to disagree with you.)

            Though we can hardly blame you considering that INN’s comment section alone has exponentially more readership than EN24.

            June 6, 2019 at 4:17 pm
          • Seraph IX Basarab J Moravia

            If I post 1 thing, and then have 5 people replying to me engaging in a discussion…I’m a bad guy for engaging back? But those 5 other people are not a problem? This kind of dishonest semantic argument is so boring. What about all of you “ganging up on me.” Can I use that card if you’re going to complain about how much I post here? It’s a comment section. I like to comment, discuss, engage, debate. If you don’t…you don’t have to. See how that works?

            June 6, 2019 at 4:19 pm
          • J Moravia Seraph IX Basarab

            You’re typically so full of garbage that pointing out exactly why is a full-time job for five people.

            “I’m tired of semantic games” says the guy who came here arguing that certain PanFam alliances shouldn’t count as PanFam.

            June 6, 2019 at 4:21 pm
          • Seraph IX Basarab J Moravia

            Show me a BR where WERMT and BOT are relevant in any major battle. Go ahead. Otherwise stop whining.

            June 6, 2019 at 4:27 pm
          • J Moravia Seraph IX Basarab

            Moomin’s article did not purport to list all the people who *had taken part* in battles for PanFam. It listed all the people who *on paper* contribute to PanFam’s numerical strength, which is roughly comparable to that of the Imperium.

            If your argument is that huge swaths of PanFam are refusing to fight against the Imperium while we run happily over every structure in their space, then yes, you’re correct. This in no way implies that they don’t count toward PanFam’s numbers, and the fact that you’re trying to build a semantic argument that they don’t or shouldn’t, while purporting to be disgusted by semantic arguments, says everything the readers need to know about the addled state of your poor brain.

            June 6, 2019 at 4:38 pm
          • Seraph IX Basarab J Moravia

            *on paper* and reality are different things. Of course having a tenuous relationship with reality (at best) you’re going to ignore the fact that the people I listed are not combat relevant, or are on the southern front vs TEST, or simply aren’t in PanFam.

            June 6, 2019 at 4:41 pm
          • J Moravia Seraph IX Basarab

            Yes, and some portion of the Imperium’s members are in Delve rather than in Tribute, as we all know from laughing at the titan killmails. What you’re saying is utterly irrelevant. The actual numbers themselves are roughly equal. If the numbers on the battlefield are unequal, that’s a credit to whichever side is getting more of their people to show up.

            June 6, 2019 at 4:46 pm
          • Seraph IX Basarab J Moravia

            The numbers of the battlefield are unequal because groups like WERMT and BOT are simply not integrated into Panfam as a military force. Here Moravia let me do your job of shitting on NCPL for you. Instead of doing this mental gymnastic bs trying to equate numbers as being equal…which everyone knows is not true, try this line:

            “Win or lose the Imperium’s strength comes from it’s people and the willingness of it’s members to act together in unison against their target. Meanwhile PanFam uses horde as meatshields and their renter slaves in WERMT and BOT work the fields. There is no unison of consciousness or goals. You have mindless zerg horde clueless to the machinations of their NCPL overlords and little better than the renter-slaves. Just like Horde was used to take Tribute by NCPL yet was never given a piece of the territory.”

            A little wordy and rushed, but essentially I address actual criticisms of PanFam. Not this nonsense spin you guys have in here.

            June 6, 2019 at 4:50 pm
          • Guilford Australis Seraph IX Basarab

            I suspected you were too stupid to perceive that you were being baited, and I was correct. Now your ridiculous tantrum is here for everyone to see what a balanced and credible reporter you are. Congratulations.

            June 6, 2019 at 4:23 pm
          • Seraph IX Basarab Guilford Australis

            “haha i was only baiting.”

            k

            June 6, 2019 at 4:30 pm
          • Guilford Australis Seraph IX Basarab

            Oh no, I was quite sincere in treating you with the contempt you deserve. The bait served other purposes, to wit:

            It pleases me to know that every time you post some drivel on EN24 your readers will say:

            “Seraph… Seraph… sounds familiar. Oh yeah, it’s that lunatic who whips up a slobbering, raving 100-comment psychotic meltdown on INN every time he doesn’t like an article. I should probably get my news elsewhere.”

            Now you can go sit in the corner and think about that for a minute.

            June 6, 2019 at 9:36 pm
          • Seraph IX Basarab Guilford Australis

            That’s funny. I don’t think about you at all.

            June 7, 2019 at 2:57 am
          • Jesus Skateboarding Christ this guy writes news? Would ya mind linking me some of his best…… “work” so I can read some of these doubtlessly hilarious comments below it. Will be a good way to laugh and psych myself up at second break during my shift.

            June 7, 2019 at 8:55 am
          • Moomin Amatin Carvj94

            Well he does not write news. He writes what PanFam pay him to write in the main. Even then it is poorly thought out, poorly researched and riddled with his own version of things. But it is always good for a laugh I will give him that. The stuff he wrote about Co2 is some of the funniest stuff imo. Especially the bit where he tries to make himself key in the Co2 betrayal during the Casino War.

            June 7, 2019 at 1:58 pm
          • Seraph IX Basarab Moomin Amatin

            Whatever “key” means.You tell me what happened then. Would love to hear this.

            June 7, 2019 at 4:40 pm
          • Seraph IX Basarab Moomin Amatin

            PanFam has never directed me to write anything. I’m not fond of Panfam. You keep repeating this lie to cover for the fact that you’re literally a paid shill for Goon propaganda.

            June 7, 2019 at 8:58 pm
    • Moomin Amatin Seraph IX Basarab

      The time of the PanFam smoke and mirrors game is long over.

      June 6, 2019 at 6:15 am
      • Barter Kaundur Moomin Amatin

        You include everybody and their mother to inflate panfam numbers lmao. Adding Legacy and deadco on the imperium side is even more realistic then what did on the panfam side.

        June 6, 2019 at 6:45 am
        • Moomin Amatin Barter Kaundur

          You have to be careful here. You see if you go back to last year it would have been PanFam + pets/renters + GotG + Winter coalition against Imperium and Legacy. That would then mean that Imperium and friends were outnumbered greatly by PanFam and friends. Yet PanFam lost last year.

          Also anyone with any ounce of sense knows exactly how PanFam try to hide their numbers. Whereas The Imperium has everyone under the same roof.

          June 6, 2019 at 8:04 am
      • Garreth Vlox Moomin Amatin

        I outright laughed when he listed slice and tri the newest tenants as not being panfam. I’m all for spin but come on they just cleared the space and transplanted them as a buffer against the Imperium.

        June 6, 2019 at 10:25 pm
    • Garreth Vlox Seraph IX Basarab

      yet you guys counter greater prosperity and PB renters when talking about damage done to goons, make up your minds either renters count or they don’t but you can;t have it both ways to justify your spin…. oh wait its a basarab post he’ll just ignore reality and continue to cry about goons nvm.

      June 6, 2019 at 7:27 am
      • Moomin Amatin Garreth Vlox

        I am looking forward to his super long blog post where he claims that PanFam do not hide their real numbers and income streams.

        June 6, 2019 at 8:05 am
        • Xandryll Moomin Amatin

          He’s already writing a story to counter post you. You pull double duty Moomin because without you, some other news site would lose a great deal of the the inspiration for articles.

          June 6, 2019 at 8:11 am
          • Moomin Amatin Xandryll

            Well at least it will be a break from re-hashing content from Hilmar put forward as his own. Or the seemingly endless stream of re-posts of dev blogs. 🙂

            June 6, 2019 at 8:19 am
          • Seraph IX Basarab Moomin Amatin

            Moomin we have like 2-3 active people on our staff. Do we have some activity slumps? Sure. But despite being a much smaller group than yours our articles are full length rather than 1 paragraph clickbaits. We never post Hilmar’s content as our own. We simply post Eve updates…just like you do.

            June 7, 2019 at 5:11 pm
          • Moomin Amatin Seraph IX Basarab

            Well I suggest you look to your EIC to resolve such issues. But perhaps they are too busy running around Discord channels being “edgy” and generally spreading fiction about the place.

            June 7, 2019 at 7:33 pm
          • Seraph IX Basarab Moomin Amatin

            It’s not really an issue for us. EN24 is about having fun writing about the game. It’s not some main focus of our lives like it seems to be for you. We don’t have a massive coalition funneling piles of ISK into us like you do. Even NCdot only pays for advertising we do for their renters. All the same as any other advertising. You’re hypocritical as usual.

            June 7, 2019 at 8:57 pm
          • Moomin Amatin Seraph IX Basarab

            And you, my dearest ninja-dilpo-space-lawyer, are quite delusional. Even the simplest review of your comments and content can easily see that. But you keep on keeping on with your “mind reading” powers all the time being in denial that you must in fact be in love with me.

            June 8, 2019 at 6:46 am
          • Seraph IX Basarab Moomin Amatin

            >”You’re dellusional!”
            >”You’re in love with me!”
            >404 Error… Self Awareness not found

            ok.jpg

            June 8, 2019 at 6:54 am
          • Erick Asmock Xandryll

            Did you hear that Moomin. You’re an inspiration!

            Maybe even an “influencer” in EVE terms. lmao…

            June 6, 2019 at 10:17 am
        • Seraph IX Basarab Moomin Amatin

          I am looking forward to your super long blog post where you claim you no longer beat your wife. See how that works?

          What income streams do they hide? Sincerely curious how you hide income streams in Eve. I’ve not heard of this.

          Also in regards to numbers, you only need to look at any battle report. Where has HKA or BOT or WERMT or NA been a relevant force in this? They’re not. They’re renters. Otherwise show me a BR that proves your point.

          June 6, 2019 at 3:03 pm
          • Garreth Vlox Seraph IX Basarab

            “I am looking forward to your super long blog post where you claim you no longer beat your wife.”

            You always struck me as a little off but I never figured you to be enough of a mental toddler to post something like that, even if just as an attempt to make a point.

            June 6, 2019 at 10:33 pm
          • Seraph IX Basarab Garreth Vlox

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question

            Pointing out that loaded questions are bad makes me a toddler? Did you never encounter the concept before?

            June 7, 2019 at 3:29 am
          • Moomin Amatin Seraph IX Basarab

            The only questions I see above are the five that you wrote. Then you go on about loaded questions.

            You should really stop using the same old tired tricks. Everyone has seen them before and they only serve to make you look bad.

            Hey why don’t you go and write a super long article all about me again. That should cheer you and your masters up.

            June 7, 2019 at 2:04 pm
          • Seraph IX Basarab Moomin Amatin

            Maybe you missed this one: “What income streams do they hide?”

            June 7, 2019 at 4:38 pm
          • Moomin Amatin Seraph IX Basarab

            If I had 1 ISK for everytime that PanFam has denied any backroom deals in which they get ISK from rental schemes then I would be the richest person in New Eden.

            June 7, 2019 at 7:37 pm
          • Seraph IX Basarab Moomin Amatin

            lol what are you talking about? What backroom deals? Why do they need to do “back room deals” for renting that is public?

            June 8, 2019 at 6:28 am
          • Moomin Amatin Seraph IX Basarab

            How little you know.

            June 8, 2019 at 6:47 am
          • Seraph IX Basarab Moomin Amatin

            Since you know so much illuminate us on these “backroom deals.”

            June 8, 2019 at 1:57 pm
          • *hides all our PVE accounts in “rental” alliances*

            HEY WE ARE OUTNUMBERED

            June 7, 2019 at 5:19 am
          • Seraph IX Basarab Mick

            Every NCPL member has 15 krab rorqual accounts now…

            June 7, 2019 at 4:38 pm
          • Moomin Amatin Seraph IX Basarab

            And let me guess, they are in goons.

            June 7, 2019 at 7:34 pm
          • Seraph IX Basarab Moomin Amatin

            Sarcasm is hard…

            June 8, 2019 at 1:57 pm
    • I really hate to agree with Seraph here, but the “minimal effort” you put into gathering the list shows the minimal accuracy of it.
      Yes, SLYCE and TRI are on PanFams side somehow, but currently not fighting as they are working out the take over of ER. You could leave them on the list, but they are not fighting atm.
      Skill Urself are their own group and not part of Panfam. So are SkillUs renters and associates like HK Associates and HK Citizens as well as Circle of Hell.
      Last but not least the renters of Rate My Ticks don’t fight at all, BOT does to some degree, but this is not worth mentioning to be honest.
      And hey, IF you want to include renters and such, where are Initiate Mercenaries and Initiative Associates on that list?

      The real numbers are more of Imperium forces around 50k and PanFam around 25k. While they have roughly 12k renters and Imperium has 5k.
      Why make numbers up? This is EVE, a war is not about being fair or anything. Also, everybody knows that numbers on paper are not the same as numbers in fleet etc.

      PS: Also, hating Goons was actually not what united people in the Casino War, it was money. That’s why the Imperium uses a different name for it btw 😉

      June 7, 2019 at 7:24 am
      • Seraph IX Basarab Punky260

        Thank you. It’s nice to know there are reasonable Goons who can just look at facts without being so obsessed about holding up the narrative and Grr Seraph.

        June 7, 2019 at 4:49 pm
      • Moomin Amatin Punky260

        My whole point was that the elite PvP forces of PanFam are not even remotely outnumbered to the degree that some claim. I was very clear in the effort I put into the numbers.

        Additionally The Imperium has everyone pretty much under one roof. None of this hiding of non-PvP characters in other alliances and the like.

        The only way to truly resolve the numbers question is for someone like Squizz to do some SQL mastery based on killboard activity. I certainly do not intend to do that work, you probably won’t either and I would be dumb founded if Seraph did any investigation on anything ever.

        So even your own “real numbers” are flawed as I hope you can see. Meanwhile Seraph will now quote you as he sees fit.

        June 7, 2019 at 7:32 pm
        • Seraph IX Basarab Moomin Amatin

          Dude even one of your own is showing you how absurd it is to count the numbers this way. Stop being so zealous for your internet guild and be reasonable for once.

          June 7, 2019 at 8:56 pm
  • Barter Kaundur

    Hey you forgot to add WinterCo, Providence, FIRE, Snuff, RvB, CONCORD, and all of high sec corps on the panfam side. Damn you guys are actually fighting heavily outnumbered.
    Edit: forgot to mention CCP obviously.

    June 6, 2019 at 6:51 am
  • Deni'z von Meanace

    This has 0 form of a war, just an invasion into the empty territory with almost 0 wish to hold and protect. So its an easy win-win situation for Imp.

    June 6, 2019 at 1:00 pm
  • Lrrp

    Classic case of thinking you are so superior that relationships to other groups of pilots is of no value. Days of high skill points mattering in fleet pvp are over. Panfam would of been wise to understand this but it looks like it may be too late for them.

    June 6, 2019 at 1:32 pm
    • Garreth Vlox Lrrp

      well horde figured it out, but they still haven’t figured why security matters yet so their numbers are undermined by spies.

      June 6, 2019 at 10:18 pm
  • Scott Wilson

    Nomadic Warrior. I like that. I sounds better than vagrant or renter.

    June 6, 2019 at 3:45 pm
  • spartan885

    good article and good Panfam tears in comments. war certainly is going faster than when we invaded GOTG which just makes me chuckle at panfam.

    June 6, 2019 at 4:45 pm
  • hurf

    lmao goonswarm has been more nomadic than NCPL the last 2 years, so that narrative is my favorite

    June 6, 2019 at 6:22 pm
  • DrkyDrky

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27AjcLzZ6R8

    This sums up pretty nicely

    June 7, 2019 at 10:09 am
  • Scott Wilson

    COMBAT GYPSPIES
    (alternately Combat Romani People, which doesn’t have the same ring to it)

    June 7, 2019 at 2:52 pm
  • Seraph IX Basarab

    You’re not an asshole that’s a sensible question to ask. The reason is that some people want to rent and to be left alone to do their own corp sized thing without having to be part of some massive coalition bloc warfare CTA-mathon. Often times renters are people moving out of highsec for the first time. Or they are the alts of older lowsec players who use the space to grind without having to be part of the coalition activities at large. PanFam just operates in a different way than the Imperium. They may have to learn to integrate those pilots somehow as the game has shifted over to favoring more and more the Imperium gameplay style rather than what PanFam (really NC and PL) have been used to.

    June 12, 2019 at 5:41 pm