How Do Goons Look To An Outsider on Week Six of PAPI’s Siege?

2021-06-05

Header Art by Redline XIII

Editor’s note: typically, any characterisation of players as seen in the Meta Show segment would return to the author for alteration. However, The Mittani saw the initial version pre-alteration, and was happy to have this article published without alteration.

It has been a good week for Goon morale; they are more manic than usual. I decided to check the pulse of the Goon bloodstream, and made the rounds – The Meta Show, Imperium Network News, and Push to Talk.

The Meta Show

The Meta Show production was to be expected. It is a common sight, peculiar but not surprising. The Mittani looked like a man on the verge of a nervous breakdown. If it weren’t part of the weekly repetition, one might conclude he, in fact, was breaking down before one’s very eyes. The flesh of his face undulating, his adam’s apple bobbing up and down like a buoy on choppy seas, eyes squinting and widening erratically into the camera, this was only outdone by the chaos of his rapidly fluctuating vocal pitches.

SAPI, Serenity Alliance Please Ignore. All this week these people have been screaming about how dare we call them a blue donut, when YOU BLUE THE ENTIRE GALAXY. You blue the entire galaxy, and you still couldn’t get it done! We are going to be shitting down your throats, SAPI! . . . I want you to cry about how toxic Goons are, because there’s nobody to help you!

The Mittani impersonating Vince McMahon

From what, exactly, PAPI would need help, though, The Mittani said little more than, “We don’t want to speak too soon. We got azbel ops on Monday, we got stuff to do. There’s legitimate war stuff to do. Um, but yeah.” What I found most curious, stripping away the bombastic antics of The Mittani’s Vince McMahon impersonation, was a central thesis: PAPI should be ashamed of their ability to engage in diplomacy successfully. A strange position to take when playing a space warlord game where the politics and meta is what makes EVE so unique, and draws so many in to play.

After all, isn’t “blue[ing] the entire galaxy,” at its core, a diplomatic success if there ever was one; a bold claim that military might isn’t everything in war, that having good (or poor) relations with one’s neighbors can bring down an empire? What is painfully, embarrassingly obvious is that Goon rage directed at PAPI diplomacy isn’t only fostered by an unfavorable military situation; it is a stark, clear reminder that Goon’s diplomatic history leading up to this moment has failed so terribly. It is a fact that Goons have been repressing, though it keeps bubbling up from their unconscious in the chaotic form of Mittani’s ravings. The Mittani, and Goons at large, project their insecurity of what they lack, diplomatic ability, as rage onto their diplomatically successful enemy.

As a psychology student himself, I’m sure The Mittani would appreciate this analysis. At the end of the day, Goons find themselves alone, having alienated everyone else in the galaxy, pushed into their last 7 remaining systems, taunting their enemy for having friends outside of their coalition. Goon morale, however, is high this week. 

Imperium News Network

On INN, one Goon article in particular states proudly that the Initiative outmaneuvered PAPI forces, leading to the successful anchoring of another keepstar in 3-D. It said: 

The Initiative. recently taught PAPI war planners a lesson regarding how to successfully anchor structures, not through force, but through deception. The move is known as a gambit in chess. Make them think you are moving one way and strike where they do not expect you. As the dust settled from another unsuccessful Azbel pawn move by the PAPI Coalition, INIT leadership were half-way through their gambit to protect the gates on 3-DMQT–call it a king’s side castle. In a multi-day operation, kept secret from all but the lead fleet commanders, INIT drew their enemies’ pieces north, then swiftly relocated their own pilots and anchored a Keepstar on the gate to the O-EIMK constellation.

I appreciated the chess analogy greatly. Within hours, Pandemic Horde leader Gobbins posted an announcement: 

Remember that the assault on a final, fully cynojammed constellation is the greatest challenge in eve. Expect any of these fights to be difficult for the attacker side. Expect server issues. Expect most of the fighting to be in Delve, but also elsewhere in eve wherever we find enemy assets hidden in other regions. The flipside of this is that for us to defend against push backs has also been easy so far. In Delve the most our enemies have accomplished when they tried pushing out has been reffing jump bridges. In drones, everything INIT has bragged about on reddit (azbel anchors, sov refs and the one renter that flipped) was quickly shut down by our forces so far, without having to send back any capitals let alone supers. But I don’t want to disparage init for it, like us they are slowly poking for weaknesses and trying new things while dealing with the challenge of attacking a fortified chokepoint.

However brilliant The Initiative’s maneuvering, Horde’s leader appears unfazed and unworried. Perhaps it is because Goon pieces are pinned down in the corner of the board. Their rook cannot move lest it expose their queen. And though they’d like to castle on King’s side, they cannot do so because it would be through check. Their defense is well structured, but immobile; a long game awaits. Goons have anchored another Keepstar in 3-D, shadowed by the 41 Keepstars they have lost this war. Goon morale, however, is high this week.  

Image of Goon keepstars that have fallen in red, those that remain in green.

Push To Talk

The Push To Talk Show on May 29 was the most interesting by far, though perhaps less watched and/or listened to. It played host to none other than Moomin Amatin, who walked listeners through a history lesson going back before the Casino War. (In a rather touching moment, Moomin said: “I just want to put this out there for all the Imperium allies. And I don’t really see you as allies, necessarily; if you are on the side of The Imperium, you are a Goon. And I thank you for your service and for entertaining me for as much as you all have over the last year.”) 

The show was effectively a two hour long PAPI-bashing party – a bunch of people in a room agreeing with each other, describing in the most precise terms and with the most delicate nuance, exactly how and why they agree with each other so much. At one point, the members of this discussion constructed a rather fascinating conspiracy theory: Vily approached The Imperium first, offering them a deal to attack PanFam, but this was only a ploy to get Goons out of position for PanFam and Legacy to pounce – Goons were the targets all along. No evidence is provided for said theory, only speculation which absolves Goons of any culpability for diplomatic errors, and diplomatic misjudgements of the past. There is something comforting in believing that it was all going to happen like this anyway, no way to avoid it; it was all just a conspiracy. 

At the end of the show Erick Asmock attempts to wrap up and gather a consensus of the discussion. “I’m just trying to decipher this” (me too Erick), “so are we basically going to the fact that PAPI, Legacy, all these, you know, they just have commitment issues?” Another speaker comments that “Oh, they have both commitment and performance issues. Hm.” Then something strange happens. Almost out of nowhere, perhaps shockingly, Goons begin to consider the possibility of their defenses not holding.

Caleb Ayrania telling Goons, not to get “cocky”: “they [PAPI] do have a strategy.”

The Break Point?

Caleb Ayrania chimes in, having spent most of the episode being critical of PAPI and their chances: “Let me just throw in the warning here, right? Don’t get cocky, kid. Because they do have a strategy and an idea of how they want to do 1DQ, and if they actually start succeeding in that – even though I still think its a horrible, horrible bet to make – but if they start succeeding the morale boost could be considerable. And you do not want that morale boost certainly happening. If suddenly you get a good win for PAPI and a success criteria for taking 1DQ, that could be very very bad for The Imperium.”

“I don’t disagree,” said Bardghost Isu, “and yes, there are outcomes that this could happen. But with what I’ve seen with the structure of 1DQ, on the Keepstar grid, they are going to bleed just to get to the Keepstar.”

“Unless they work their way through it,” said Dawn Rhea. It is at this point that the Goons start to ponder what they have been trying so hard not to think about. “Let’s say they get an azbel or fort. Let’s just go magic here; magic, here we are. They’ve got a fort 1000 off one of the forts on the left side, right . . .” Goons begin comforting themselves with stories of how challenging it would be for PAPI to make progress, simultaneously talking about how they would do it. 

Caleb Ayrania gives his final word of the show: “The way I see things, if PAPI really wants to win, I think they need to get their head out of this slow mode thing. Even though that works on paper, I don’t actually think it’s going to work because people want to see progress. . . . I do think there is a win condition for them.” 

Caleb might not think the “slow mode” thing is going to work, but even he has to concede that it “works on paper.” Amidst all the doubt, there is an admission that PAPI’s strategy has validity, a rationality, a logic. Caleb finds it doubtful PAPI will be able to implement it; he doubts PAPI line members have the resolve to keep pushing, following what “works on paper” without visible marks of “progress.”

I think this is a fair concern, one PAPI should have in mind; maybe he’s right to doubt. But then again, maybe he is wrong; maybe PAPI will have the resolve and patience to make work in reality what “works on paper.” As Caleb made these admissions, Goons listened to him silently. No one objected, or countered him. Even Moomin, perhaps the Gooniest of Goons, who spoke after Caleb in PTT’s around-the-circle wrap-up, didn’t counter Caleb’s claim/admission that PAPI’s strategy works on paper as I expected him to.

Conclusion

In sum, Goon morale is high this week. From an outsider’s perspective, there are cracks in that impenetrable goon facade, pretending there are no doubts, not worries, no regrets. Goons’ decision to stress so greatly the Serenity Superstition, to aim rage at PAPI’s successful diplomacy, reveals a deeply repressed insecurity in being unable to get along with others in the universe. I think, deep down, they’re hurt no one seems to like them, that all the other kids at school think they are the bully; and so they lash out all the more.

While they press their headphones into their ears, playing filter songs loudly in their last 7 systems, headbanging to show how unified they are in their confidence against the enemy, there are still whispers of doubt here and there that slip amongst themselves, at the end of long shows when they have let their guard down and, perhaps, thinking no PAPI player would listened to the end. At the end of these shows, there are what-ifs and magic, warnings and don’t-get-cocky’s. There are even acknowledgements that, on paper, things just might work for PAPI. These are not comforting thoughts, and even the painfully crafted conspiracy theories don’t fully keep them at bay.

Moreover, the Goons whine loudly, even desperately “What are you waiting for?! Come on and hit us!” One cannot help but wonder, when confronted by such tauntings, if PAPI’s siege is working even better than we hoped for. If Goons were more quiet, I might start to get worried: “Maybe we aren’t really hurting them after all. Maybe all this siege stuff is a bad idea; they seem to be doing fine, they haven’t said a word.” But these wild outbursts only present the Goon heart laid bare before PAPI eyes. In war, observe which side is complaining the most; there lies the losing side. Leaders may lie, but agitation reveals. On the whole, Goon morale is high. What more can be said than that?

P.S. Now More Seriously

Let’s talk straight: PAPI has many challenges ahead of it, and Goon defenses are looking mighty sturdy. So far, Goons have managed to push back PAPI’s probings. This can be demoralizing, and Caleb rightly pointed out that people tend to want instant gratification for their efforts; without progress that feels tangible it is easy to get the impression that progress isn’t being made. Goons are counting on this tendency, hoping PAPI will let off the gas and eventually give up. If PAPI hopes to succeed, its members will need to continually remind itself that they were warned it was going to be hard, going to be long. But as Caleb points out, PAPI strategy works on paper so long as a tendency for instant gratification gets the better of us; if PAPI wins the war it will be due to dedication, discipline, and patience, regardless of a perceived lack of progress when things got slow.

Goons: you are having a good week. Blarpies appear to have been countered, and another week goes by without PAPI making much headway. It is a good moment, but the moment may pass in time; as Caleb said: “don’t get cocky, kid.” You, like Caleb, may also doubt PAPI’s ability to stayed disciplined even in the face of weeks with little “progress.” But there are reasons PAPI won’t give up easily, even when its nose gets bloodied. One is good, simple pride. PAPI has effectively doubled down on the siege, the idea of eventually taking 1DQ. For many, the thought of flying back to their home regions with egg on their face, Goons laughing at their backs, is too painful; they’d rather play hours and hours, weeks and weeks of less than exciting gameplay. It is easy to mock the egos and pride of PAPI members, but don’t underestimate it as a motivation to destroy your home.

Image from film 1984, adapted into Goon propaganda video “Two Minute’s Hate” by Brian Schoeneman: crowd interpreted as Goon/The Mittani haters.

Another reason, also simple, is that there are many people who do not like you. You know this already. But this war isn’t making people like you any more than they did beforehand. “Eat my ass,” “Vily’s willy,” “PISSPI” etc. only fuels PAPI members to keep logging in, keep getting in fleet, gratified to hear more Goon complaining about PAPI taking too long. Disdain and schadenfreude are powerful motivators in war, and PAPI aren’t lacking in them.

A while back in comms I heard a [I think] newer player saying something to the effect of: “You know, when I first came out here to Delve I didn’t care too much about Goons, I just wanted to shoot some ships and have fun. But these guys with their “eat my ass” stuff in the chat, I’m really starting to hate these guys. I mean, I don’t really hate anyone, but, ya know?” That’s a player whose going to keep showing up, keep fighting Goons; +1 loyal PAPI lineman from distasteful Goon taunts alone – not even a person whose history/anger with goons runs deep.

PAPI players like this, charged up by Goon rhetoric, and other PAPI members whose pride will never let them turn around so long as they can still get a ship in their hands, are going to prove Caleb’s doubts wrong.

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Comments

  • William Doe

    To preface: I’m an actual outsider as I never played the game myself – and don’t ever intend to. I don’t even listen to any of the podcasts or shows on twitch. But my history of comments here does show I’m pretty much have drunk the Goon Kool-Aid and I’m proud of it. I’ll let actual Imperium members post their own opinions on certain subjects of this piece.

    What I will add my two cents in is the diplomacy aspect of it all. I really doubt Goons ever really cared much for the diplomacy part in regards to this war. “Bring it.” was a common utterance from The Mittani and probably still is. If you want to talk about diplomacy, look who actually decided to bail out on PAPI and join the Imperium? Red Alliance and Siberian Squads were part of PAPI before the war but joined the Imperium or at the barest of minimums works with them during this war. Name me an alliance or a big notable corp in the Imperium jumping ship over to PAPI during this war, none. The reason simple, Goons didn’t want to be doing all the work carrying Legacy’s worthless ass if they were honest about trying to secure a larger rental empire in your(PanFam) space, so The Mittani said no and they begun their preparations coming into this war and here we are.

    The only real “diplomacy” that can be utilized by the Imperium during this war was when TTT was under attack and Goons worked with Legacy and PanFam to defend it. That’s really all it is. Honestly if PAPI wants to hit the Imperium where it hurts and have them actually use true diplomacy for survival. Boot them out of the TTT – that would have an interesting effect to the economic stability to the Imperium.

    June 5, 2021 at 7:59 AM
  • Moomin Amatin

    The last spewings of a petulant child as they thrash in anger trying to cling onto the false statements made by their leaders?

    The contradictions in this piece are amazing. It was written with the seeming belief that the internet does not exist and the things said by PAPI can be wiped from history with gaslighting. If this is all PAPI has now then it will go some way to explain all the firesales taking place in T5Z local of late.

    June 5, 2021 at 8:01 AM
    • William Doe Moomin Amatin

      I’m going to stop calling them PAPI and from here on in, I’ll use a new acronym for them.

      Coping
      Repeatedly
      Alliance
      Please
      Ignore

      June 5, 2021 at 8:08 AM
      • Moomin Amatin William Doe

        The Imperium is running with “sapi” at this time. Note they are not allowed to use caps. The rest is Serenity Alliance Please Ignore, which some on the council of wardens are finding upsetting.

        June 5, 2021 at 8:31 AM
        • William Doe Moomin Amatin

          If it gets under their skin, then it’s enough. Me personally I’m sticking with CRAPI anyway since it describes them best, I’m not a goon anyway.

          June 5, 2021 at 8:46 AM
    • Guilford Australis Moomin Amatin

      PAPI: The blue donut does not exist.

      Also PAPI: Bluing the entire galaxy is a diplomatic success for PAPI.

      Someone square that circle for me.

      June 5, 2021 at 11:52 AM
      • Garreth Vlox Guilford Australis

        “Someone square that circle for me.” Give the author a few hours I’m sure he’ll get around to it for you.

        June 6, 2021 at 3:36 AM
  • Novartis

    As a neutral party(I’m not a goons, neither a PAPI member, and I’m not involved in this war at all other than as a third party observer), this is a good enough neutral post. It doesn’t cornered any of the fighting side, praised both side while reminding both that each side still have the chance to lose if they decide to slack off.

    A someone studying in engineering, I know fully well that lots of thing, heck, quite a lot of thing that haven’t exist yet have been proven ‘in theory’ most of the time. The only problem is that what is proven in theory, on the paper, relies on a lot, I DO REALLY MEAN A LOT of IFs and assumption. Yes, PAPI current siege plan would work on paper, I won’t lie, it will and always work, but the assumption is based that if it happens on real world, or someplace where the risk for both side is equal. Currently the risk is their entire existential(the whole goons), vs the pride of the PAPI name(hence might not spread to all PAPI member). it’s quite a disproportionate amount of risk for a fight, hence why goons will, and would, fight harder than your average PAPI member. PAPI see nearly all blue at the entire nulls, while goons, outside the last constellation and few secret stronghold(I assume they have it, imperium will be fully stupid if they don’t have any secret contingency plan if in case 1DQ truly fall), they see reds everywhere.

    I won’t say anything like stupid, moron or whatever other things. Yeah, it might sound stupid for goons to keep cursing on locals, but they’ve seen how it all starts. They are, in a sense, might be what you called as a bunch of extremely pissed of guys. They just sit there, being a new kind of guy, not as toxic as in the past, and suddenly the other kid pointing to him, “Hey, that’s the guy we need to get rid off! He’s a bad influence for all of us!”. Goons anger is not without reason. They were seen as pest for quite their whole history of existence. They knew, they might not be able to appease every single null entity, and boy they had friends they could rely on and won’t backstab them if they see the chance. They knew their old enemy will be looking to crush them again, the same enemy as a decade ago. But they never truly crush the enemy. This is a game. Game paid its player with fun per hour, not boredom per hour.

    Last thing last, I will stress this again. PAPI strategy sure can works, on paper. But the biggest question is, can PAPI still muster the critical number? CAN PAPI maintain the CRITICAL number of PLAYER to maintain the siege and assault? CAN PAPI make sure their member will to maintain the critical number of player still present and interested more than goons? For another week? Another month? or, even in the worst case, another year?(and this question will remain to all goons too tbh)

    P.S Yeah, I might be a neutral guy, but the subjective side of me is siding with goons. The comment that I made here is a try to keep things as neutral as possible

    June 5, 2021 at 8:17 AM
  • Elthar Nox

    Nice article Seir. The most important part sits in what Caleb said “don’t get cocky kid” – he’s absolutely right. PAPI is a difficult coalition to manage, and the longer they go without hope of a breakthrough the better for the Imperium, but let up on the defences and gifting them a win would see numbers start to increase dramatically.

    Morale is a vital component in war. I think you’ve nailed the balance of koolaid there 🙂

    June 5, 2021 at 8:42 AM
    • Bardghost_Isu Elthar Nox

      Agreed, and that was the same point that I made on PTT that Seir seems to have misunderstood.

      I’ve been saying all war that there is a clear possibility, I can see how they would have to assault 1DQ, but also having seen the layout of that grid, I’ve made it clear that they will have to bleed heavily to the even get to the keepstar itself, at which point we have the decisive fight, if they don’t commit caps they won’t win, if they do then one side comes out with no Titan / Super fleet left and the other is effectively the winners of eve and no-one will be able to contest them ever again and that fight, I honestly can’t predict.

      So yes, Don’t get cocky, In their current state I don’t see them winning but if we do get cocky, then we might just end up letting something slip in that shouldn’t which could cost us the war.

      June 5, 2021 at 8:59 AM
  • Eve_Osir1s

    Bold article, I commend you!

    “+1 loyal PAPI lineman from distasteful Goon taunts alone – not even a person whose history/anger with goons runs deep.”

    True for me as well, but obviously as a loyal Goon instead dealing with PAPI insults. Welcome to the friendship machine.

    June 5, 2021 at 9:17 AM
  • shanemacgowansteeth

    I’ve heard worse insults spewed from school playgrounds I pass to and from my way to work than The Mittani utters on The Meta Show, and if this is what the average sapi member needs to find the cause to log on and play in a video game, let alone find some well of hatred to fight the enemy in a video game war, it says more about the average sapi line member’s state of mind than the average Imperium line members

    June 5, 2021 at 9:50 AM
  • Guilford Australis

    I’m not sure how you can simultaneously believe, as claimed in the article, that (1) bluing the entire galaxy is, in fact, a great diplomatic success for PAPI; (2) The Imperium is PAPI’s only remaining competitor of significance, and yet (3) all of that is just “Serenity Superstition” that is totally not happening even though I just boasted that it’s happening.

    June 5, 2021 at 11:04 AM
    • Garreth Vlox Guilford Australis

      He wants to have his cake, and eat it, AND tell you that the cake he is actively eating doesn’t exist and its just a myth propagated by goon spin masters because his alliance leaders said so. Seir’s dipped farther and farther into koolaid posting territory since his appearance here, at this point he’s gone full spin master.

      June 6, 2021 at 6:18 PM
  • Malcanis

    “However brilliant The Initiative’s maneuvering, Horde’s leader appears unfazed and unworried.”

    Ah so this is an example of your leadership NOT saying hyperbolic things that actually mean the opposite of what they really say? Have I got that right? Gobbins said he wasn’t worried, *therefore* no worry was felt, no further evidence needed?

    The 1000+ PH, NC, and FRT that assembled for the affair were, of course, no indication of the least concern….

    June 5, 2021 at 11:21 AM
  • What I find most surprising about this article is how fundamentally the SAPI line member doesn’t understand why we point out the blue donut and other criticisms we have of our enemies.

    The blue donut argument and the Serenity Alliance Please Ignore are taunts specific ally designed to mock the bads because of their original war justification claim that Goons were bad for the game specifically because our diplomacy was TOO good. The hate thrown at diplomats, highlighted by Pittsburgh’s defection to NC. after being called on the carpet for breaking our diplo agreements, among others seem to have been completely forgotten. The Imperium as a whole is a triumph of diplomacy, and that it has stayed together in the face of a year of being pounded by the rest of nullsec is a testament to that. We would not likely be hitting the blue donut and serenity argument so hard if it wasn’t one of the primary justifications for the war in the first place.

    As for the rest, our morale is high because we are winning. We said from the beginning, once it became clear that PAPIs goal was our extermination and the Imperium falling apart that survival was our only win condition, and we are surviving, yes in our handful of systems. Our guys are logging in, having fun, joining fleets and generally happy.

    Can the same be said fir PAPI? I don’t think so. At least, not that I have seen for the last few weeks.

    June 5, 2021 at 1:50 PM
    • Seir Luciel Brian W. Schoeneman

      If my writing can cause Brisc to rear his head, I must be doing something right.

      I see your point Brisc, The Imperium’s members are remarkably resilient, tight knit. In that sense, you are correct to point out the ways, on a smaller scale, The Imperium’s diplomacy has been quite successful. However, the “blue donut” stated differently is simply the majority of nullsec players teaming up to take down a common enemy. Even TAPI, who has a checkered history with blues, something Goons were once quick to point out, has for the past year been a stable ally. A very different picture than the one painted by The Imperium early in the war.

      My point is that the majority of nullsec players, all simultaneously, all agreeing upon a common enemy doesn’t happen by accident. Getting that many people to agree on anything, especially such a crew as PAPI, let alone work together to get something done, is noteworthy. I think it fair to question whether The Imperium didn’t have some part to play in effecting such uniformity of opinion across the galaxy, or whether more preventative measures could have been taken. Internal diplomacy and external diplomacy ought to be calculated together when adding up a coalition’s Charisma stat, so to speak.

      As I see it, really boiled down, post-Delve miracle The Imperium was very clearly pulling ahead of all other coalitions in wealth and power; kudos to Goons. The rest of nullsec recognized a threat and saw collective action as the only recourse for the obvious imbalance. In the face of this, I think The Imperium could have done more to prevent the subsequent PAPI unification (of opinion, as well as of action) from being so, well, unified.

      June 5, 2021 at 2:54 PM
      • Gray Doc Seir Luciel

        Yeah, Goons should have been far less good at the game. If we were as lame as other organizations, we wouldn’t have pulled so far ahead. That’s the argument you are making here. Never should have done the Delve Miracle–tell your guys to stop playing as much, mining as much, ratting as much. Why does it always come down to PAPI folk wanting Goons to play less or less well?

        June 5, 2021 at 3:43 PM
        • Garreth Vlox Gray Doc

          “Why does it always come down to PAPI folk wanting Goons to play less or less well?”

          Because they suck and they don’t have the commitment that the imperium members have and they know it. This is a clear cut case of them needing to drag us down to their level of disorganization because they can’t beat the organization that was the source of the imperiums success.

          June 6, 2021 at 3:36 AM
      • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

        For some reason some people seem to be keen to help you understand the mindset of The Imperium. Let me try again.

        This war is super funny as it was started on a lie that grew and grew. Now members of The Imperium get to watch Legacy kill themselves in a war of extermination that they started. The “extermination” rhetoric is being rolled back and now PAPI make accusations that are increasingly wild in nature. Amusingly the following lines of Vily’s interview after the “extermination” bit focus on stopping Mittens from playing the game. 1 person, 10, people a thousand people does not detract from the fact that getting someone to stop playing the game as a war objective has never been seen before. The only time close is probably the meta-gaming of the CSM by Vily by all accounts.

        I will leave you with a comment I made 9 months ago. Almost as if I knew something.

        “But unknown to Vily he is but a tool in these meta games. Goons have always looked to fight the ideals of BoB. BoB demand an eve that they are the lords over with serfs and peasants who pick up the scraps they are thrown. BoB rebranded but it still exists. Its ideas and concepts. There are ripples in the potential for the balance of power. PanFam has already won this war in spades and will be shown in the map and rental deals of the future. How Test and its immediate allies will fare has yet to be decided.”

        Pretty spot on yeah?

        At some point I will re-link the one where I made a prediction about PAPI not attacking 1DQ due to “server issues” and other such things.

        June 5, 2021 at 5:22 PM
      • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

        “If my writing can cause Brisc to rear his head, I must be doing something right.”

        Or it could just be that you did something so very wrong he took pity on you to point it out…

        June 6, 2021 at 3:34 AM
      • kwnyupstate . Seir Luciel

        The Imperium is still is way ahead of all other groups in terms of power and wealth (and also will to fight); especially after the massacre at M2 and PAPI isn’t willing to use capitals to seriously try to change that.

        June 6, 2021 at 3:36 AM
      • Garreth Vlox Seir Luciel

        “has for the past year been a stable ally.”

        You literally can’t be this stupid, this has to be an act where you just ignore reality to spin for your side. Because it’s now public knowledge they offered to team up with us to kill YOU off FIRST, before turning to you with the same offer when we said no…

        June 6, 2021 at 5:55 PM
        • William Doe Garreth Vlox

          That quoted part made me laugh. Of course TAPI will be a stable ally, they know they wouldn’t dare risk pissing off PanDaFam while at the same time require the aforementioned 2 Blocs help in against Goons. It nearly took a whole goddamn year for Vily to order around both AoM and FRT who are at each other’s throats to work together for one big move-op so far. I bet deep down the leaders and high ranking members of PanDaFam secretly loathe taking orders from Vily and Piggles.

          If TAPI pisses them off too much, PanDaFam turns and wrecks TAPI in the drop of a hat while they end up taking a beating the likes of no other from Goons, FRT, and PanFam.

          June 7, 2021 at 7:19 AM
      • Xelistren Seir Luciel

        By unifying doesn’t PAPI become exactly what they are accusing the Goons of? you have 3 to 1 advantage and everyone in PAPI should have known that before hand, so quit with the cop-out that it is out of fear of the Goons. The real reason that so many have grouped together is actually very shaky at best, history. As time has shown before in both real life and in games history making is a shaky foundation to an alliance given that once the history making is proven impossible those who promised history usually become history. For your sake I hope your diplomats didn’t promise the others the historic elimination of the Goons because otherwise your alliance will be the one eliminated.

        June 7, 2021 at 6:24 PM
  • Gray Doc

    I appreciate the analysis and the quotations. But within those very quotations you seem to have missed something vital to the issue at hand: Bardghost agrees with Caleb that it’s possible to successfully attack 1DQ. But INN commentators, including Moomin and myself, have been saying that for months and months. The issue is the cost, and continually we point out that PAPI is seems unwilling, so far, to pay that cost. I doubt seriously PAPI can take 1DQ with subcaps and yet they are trying because they want to dance without paying the band. Can’t be done. The very quote you bring out from Gobbins admits as much: “Expect any of these fights to be difficult for the attacker side. Expect server issues.” And then he launches into that back-to-the-drawing-board stuff, asking PAPI members to do new training, etc. Put your analytical skills on THAT one, Seir. Do you not see through the surface at all? There’s no plan! The plan, I guess, if there is one, is trial and error, because PAPI will not commit anything but subcaps. So, of course Imperium morale is high. It should be. If the situation were reversed, and I were a PAPI member, facing who knows how many more weeks of sad attempts at subcap attacks, I’d be very upset, because my ships are getting blown up without progress being made. If you dissect Gobbins’ own statements as carefully as you’ve dissected Goon rhetoric, you’d see the situation far far differently.

    June 5, 2021 at 3:35 PM
  • Aaron Kitchell

    Isn’t the tone of this article kind of inverted? He writes like PAPI are the underdogs. PAPI are not the underdogs, we are. I remember looking at the Imperial Palace and all our Faction Forts thinking someday, they might all be wiped off the map. Now it appears the tide is turning and we might just win this thing after all. You’re damn right morale is high for us. Feels good man.

    June 5, 2021 at 5:36 PM
    • Moomin Amatin Aaron Kitchell

      This is just an attempt to get back to the “goons are too strong” narrative and justify the blue-donut. This ignores that Legacy asked The Imperium to help it attack PanFam. The “too strong” casus belli fails on this very point. It also fails on even if The Imperium are “too strong” then PAPI have no plan to errode that strength other than hope they can stop goons from playing the game. So funny.

      June 5, 2021 at 11:52 PM
  • Plebble

    The title is wrong. You are not an outsider, you are involved in the war.

    June 5, 2021 at 6:43 PM
    • Moomin Amatin Plebble

      Hey at least they are not trying to re-brand yet as a certain PAPI leader has stated they are doing. Can you blame anyone on PAPI from trying to create a bit of distance here?

      June 5, 2021 at 11:54 PM
    • William Doe Plebble

      So true, if I were to write an article. It’d be from a pure outsider perspective since I don’t even play the game. I’m just an outside observer who got into the Goon rhetoric despite my bias.

      June 6, 2021 at 12:19 AM
  • Canti Ludan

    Article title is a bit misleading. Implies its from a neutral perspective but becomes obvious its a PAPI narrative. Was hoping to see a truly neutral perspective.

    June 5, 2021 at 6:57 PM
    • William Doe Canti Ludan

      That’s tough. You’d need a person who actually has no horse in the race and is basically a third party who has had almost equal amount of exposure to both the Imperium and CRAPI/sapi.

      June 6, 2021 at 9:53 AM
      • Canti Ludan William Doe

        You miss the point. Because of the title I was expecting to read a an Article from someone with no horse in the game. “outsider” eludes to that. Had the title said from “Papi perspective” or “Otherside” I would have taken in the article differently.

        Leads me to wonder if the writer was intentionally trying to mislead the reader. Leadership in PAPI have been caught lying their pilots before; misleading readers is like pee’n in the Ocean.

        And if they are trying to mislead you in the title how can you trust anything written in the article?

        June 6, 2021 at 6:31 PM
        • Arrendis Canti Ludan

          Nah, it’s just that even as a staff member with INN, Seir is acutely aware of being an outsider to the Imperium. Maybe even more acutely because he is on staff.

          June 6, 2021 at 11:51 PM
        • William Doe Canti Ludan

          Actually pretty great point there. Anyone familiar with Seir’s works would see his username as originator of this said article would automatically come in with the notion he’s going to dole out PAPI line member propaganda, so it was actually disingenuous using “Outsider” in the title in that manner.

          June 7, 2021 at 7:08 AM
  • Jeet_Kundo

    If this isn’t bait and switch media titling and content that would fool the uninformed reader as to who you are versus what you’re claiming to be, I don’t know what it is. You’re presenting yourself as an “outsider”, which is true in a literal sense not being a part of goons but is dishonest with relation to your involvements with them i.e. Team B, knowing full-well such titling would also lead people to believe you to be 3rd party; the titling dishonestly postulates impartiality, it’s dirty writing.

    June 5, 2021 at 7:11 PM
    • Moomin Amatin Jeet_Kundo

      I applaud Sier for even trying to defend the PAPI narrative to be honest. It is no easy task of that I am certain. With the material they have to work with I would expect nothing less than them to try every trick in the book to sway supporters to their cause. They have not fallen to the depths of some reporters as yet though which is nice to see.

      June 5, 2021 at 11:58 PM
      • William Doe Moomin Amatin

        I agree entirely. Seir goes into the bee-hive putting up these articles pretty much every week defending general PAPI propaganda knowing full well regulars like yourself and others can easily counter his talking points. He does make the attempt to come off factual even if at least partially biased.

        It’d wear down a normal person over time but I give him his props for sticking to it as long as he has.

        June 6, 2021 at 12:17 AM
  • Zaand

    Papi has gone from “we will exterminate Goons” to “We will severely disrupt Goons” to “Haha made you form: diplomacy”.

    never forget who Legacy came to first, hat in hand. We didn’t “alienate” you, we wanted nothing to do with your blue-donut.

    June 6, 2021 at 2:07 AM
  • kwnyupstate .

    PAPI has attacked the Imperium for a year and the Imperium has stayed strong and morale is high in large part due to the understanding that for PAPI to be victorious they need to engage in a large scale battle(s) in 1DQ in which the Imperium has probably the strongest defense prepared in the history of Eve.
    I give many thanks to CCP for the well timed changes in the value of capital ships because it makes such an attack exponentially more painful for PAPI who has not the isk or courage to attempt it.
    I also give CCP many thanks for their plan to erect a monument to the battle of M2 which will forever be known as Vily’s Monument of Shame commemorating the largest disaster in gaming history.

    June 6, 2021 at 3:08 AM
  • Garreth Vlox

    “Image of Goon keepstars that have fallen in red, those that remain in green.”

    Its also an image of how many keepstars papi killed behind a cynojammer because they are cowards.

    June 6, 2021 at 3:33 AM
  • Carvj94

    My only experience with goons is getting blown up a few times by their roams in J-space and I’ve never so much as talked with anyone running a null alliance in several years. Wanna know what this actual outsider has to say? PAPI has proven their weakness and lack of dedication by failing to beat an enemy who, on paper, is far weaker than them. Not to mention all their complaints about goons have been mere projections from day one.

    June 6, 2021 at 4:33 AM
  • Havish Montak

    This is a well written article.

    This might be why Brisc replied. This article is of a high quality and high quality people respond. What I can say of my Dear Moomin is that he schooled me on how to read the galaxy. Welp Squad has had multiple successful deployments thanks to his advice.

    I look at the krabbing figures across the galaxy and woe be me. They are shocking. I barely see a 1000 npc kills per hour in a system. The mode is actually 0. Median is around 50 from a glance on active regions. Everywhere in new EDEN, I see activity dropping across the game thanks to this war. Small groups being wiped out and reaching out for help against FRT. This is the game, but you play by SAPI rules or get shot. Be ready to be the new Imperium. The new bad guys. The one to topple. There is one banner rally around to fight this galaxy spanning alliance of Empires and the call for FREEDOM always wins!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Sincerely
    Sir Havish “The Bruce” Montak

    June 6, 2021 at 7:42 AM
  • Crakachunky

    The Mittani, and Goons at large, project their insecurity of what they lack, diplomatic ability, as rage onto their diplomatically successful enemy.

    Conveniently forgetting that before the The Imperium was the CFC, a large bloc of alliances that all started independently but eventually brought together by common cause and comradery whilst sacrificing autonomy and cultural nuances, combining in one of the largest displays of trust and fortitude the game has ever seen.

    The mere existence of The Imperium as an entity is one of the greatest displays of diplomatic success.

    June 6, 2021 at 10:43 PM
  • Seir, you put way too much time and effort into things to be a real PAPI member. Why not play for the team that values these things instead?

    June 7, 2021 at 6:36 AM
  • ShutUp ShutUp

    Every time I comment on a Seir article calling him a pubbie he deletes it. Or someone does. Anyway, you’re not an outsider.

    June 7, 2021 at 2:41 PM
  • Xelistren

    How to join PAPI.
    Step 1 drink the kool-aid
    Step 2 ignore obvious facts
    Step 3 never question the lies being told to you
    Step 4 eventually lose all credibility
    Step 5 off yourself for being a moron.

    June 7, 2021 at 6:29 PM
  • Elithiel en Gravonere

    The question of why the rest of the galaxy decided to team up with Papi members is a good one. Something I feel deserves a whole article in and of itself. Why would, Legacy, who originally got beaten down and kicked out of the North by Panfam, join the same people who beat down on them? Why would Winter Coalition, who got beaten down hard by Legacy, take time out and side with Legacy against Goonswarm, when Goons have done absolutely nothing against FiRE or Wintercoalition beyond a few minor roams in their space?

    Is it because they hate Goonswarm so much? Well, XIX has very little reason to hate us. We barely interact with them. My guess is they’re getting some kind of goodies or deal out of it (more space, isk, etc)? Pandafam have obvious reasons to hate us so fair enough. What of Legacy? Well, only really TEST itself, has any real reason to hate us as much as they do. Brave actually got on fairly well with us and Evictus, were not someone we had any truck with. Mangoes our side, actually assisted on several occasions in the past so why they’d side with you, is anyone’s guess. FEDUP we were blue to at one stage and helped them secure space in cloud ring so once again, there’s no natural reason for them to hate us.

    Truth be told, I doubt most of these groups absolutely hate us, that they’d stick out the war. They stand something to gain from attacking us and joining the blue donut. Backroom deals, no doubt have been done and struck. It’ll all play out eventually why these groups, joined in this mega alliance of three coalitions against a single coalition but I wouldn’t be surprised if isk, RMT money and/or space is being traded for their loyalty. Who knows exactly why, but if I smell a rat, it probably is because there is one.

    June 8, 2021 at 8:15 AM
  • J Moravia

    After all, isn’t “blue[ing] the entire galaxy,” at its core, a diplomatic success if there ever was one[?]

    Ah yes, the old conflation of real life with online gaming. In real life, the goal is to keep from fighting wars, as they’re economically wasteful. In EVE Online, the goal is not the same, because the game would be exceedingly boring if no one ever fought each other.

    The answer to your question, then, is “no.”

    June 8, 2021 at 4:49 PM
  • Democritus

    I’ve heard Redline spew nonsense so obviously wrong on Twitch that his own side had to tone down his propaganda. While delusional, they at least understood the point that propaganda needs to be at least remotely believable.

    End of the day, a coalition with three times the numbers attacked another and is now trying to claim its the underdog. It’s making excuses for failing to anchor a single azbel after almost 30 attempts and is pretending that its very obvious combat pilot activity metric is not collapsing drastically. When you point out the obvious, namely that TEST existence requires Sapi to hold their hand indefinitely into the future in Delve, he (and other like Vily) rant off on issues of toxicity and the use of childish name calling, while seconds later, some other Sapi member happily states that Imperium all suck pecker. The delusional hypocrisy of these clowns is the reason why with 3 times the numbers, they can’t achieve anything beyond largely undefended structure bashing.

    June 9, 2021 at 10:58 AM