Goon and Horde: A Conversation about Hubris

2021-04-14

Header and inset art by Cryo Huren

This article is a brief discussion on the topic of hubris, arrogance, and the use of rhetoric within aspects of EVE Online’s propaganda and metagame, between two INN editors, Gray Doc and Seir Luciel. Gray Doc is a member of KarmaFleet, while Seir Lucial is a member of Pandemic Horde Inc.

Gray Doc: I’ve been thinking about some of your recent stories, or comments to stories, especially how Goons are so “proud,” lack humility, are filled with hubris, etc. It also reminded me of something Matterall was saying on Talking in Stations. The conversation was about a third party group beating up on another group, to the point where they actually chased them from their home and then followed them into Great Wild Lands to continue to bash them.

Matterall said, “The pursuit thing is a little troubling. It starts to look like griefing to some degree. Chasing somebody after they are defeated and clearly don’t want to fight anymore. I guess it depends on what’s motivating the whole thing. But if somebody’s . . . [pause] I hate to put it in playground fight terms, but if somebody’s still talking back after they’re on the ground, that’s different than someone on the ground whimpering. Like, there’s a different sense of mercy at that point.”

I’ll probably come back to this Matterall quote, but it demonstrates that we have, I think, other motivations for the war and for continuing the war that go completely off-grid from the stated objectives by either side. I wonder why “hubris” seems to irk you so much.  And, as you see from the Matterall quote, you’re not alone in this focus on humility or crying for mercy.  Some PAPI people not only want to win the war, but they also want to humble Goons.  I have a theory as to why that is, but I’m interested in your take, since you seem to be one of those people for whom “humility” seems so paramount.

Goons have a great deal to be proud about.

Seir

Seir Luciel: I want to first say that Goons have a great deal to be proud about. I don’t want to minimize this. Goons have a long history, and a very successful history. Early on they were taken for granted and primarily punched their way up into recognition and respect. They have taken on some of the most powerful organizations and beaten even those thought invincible. I am specifically thinking of BoB, which has been receiving a bit of attention lately, but there were others as well. Goons have been able to take situations most alliances would buckle under and return stronger than before.

These are incredible accomplishments and ought to be regarded as such. Indeed, this success is one of the reasons they get so much flak; people don’t tend to get worked up about no-names and non-threats. However, I’m not irked that Goons feel proud of these feats. Goons accomplished much, put in the hard work, and they deserve to brag about their successes. In my mind, they’ve earned that right. 

But before I go on, give me your theory. Why do you think you are seeing PAPI members focusing on hubris, pride, and humility lately?

It’s a Freudian and Jungian playground.

Gray

Gray Doc:  I think many aspects of human nature are at work. That’s one of the reasons the PAPI war goals have been so confused and mixed:  we see the stated war goals, but we also must allow for unstated ones that really go to individual egos and collective unconscious stuff.  It’s a Freudian and Jungian playground. I think many PAPI members have felt deeply and personally hurt by Goons.  People have played here since 2003 and for some people, their relationship with other players has outlasted many marriages.  So, I think personal grudges are behind a lot of what I’m seeing.

What I’m seeing is that some of the most virulent anti-Goon attacks, that go beyond strategy or typical war goals, come from people who have a personal emotional stake in the outcome. Some in PAPI want Goons to feel humbled, embarrassed, humiliated, and shamed and I can’t help but think there is a desire for personal, not strategic, retribution.  So, when Goons don’t demonstrate those qualities, but the exact opposite ones, that Goon defiance infuriates PAPI and hence the talk about hubris, pride, and arrogance.

Seir Luciel: I think it depends on the instance, and depends on the person. Yeah, some PAPI members want Goons to be humbled. Others are just here for the military campaign; it’s not about humbling Goons, it’s just about winning the war. And then there are spaces in between. There might be some specific individuals that PAPI members want to see brought low, but don’t care either way when it comes to Goons as an organization; some people just really hate The Mittani, for instance.

[Goons are] a kind of North Korea of null

Seir

Part of the frustration I see in many PAPI members is what they consider a dissonance between Goon attitudes and what they would call “reality.” I’ve heard in fleets people say (to the effect) that the only fuel in left in Goonswarm’s tank is their own propaganda; these same people will give credit to Goon successes and strength, but essentially consider them to be living on a different planet compared to the rest of EVE–a kind of North Korea of null.  Part of the problem is that in EVE, unlike other games, there’s no arbitrator who has any authority to decide wins and losses.

If I lose all my structures in Starcraft, the game tells me I lost and the other guy won: I can complain about this or that but there’s no debate about who won the match. In EVE, I can lose all my structures and people will debate about who won or lost for years. Some PAPI members want Goons to be “humbled” in the sense that they come to see the situation the same way PAPI members do, i.e. accepting that they are losing or have lost the war. I don’t think that will ever happen, but some do. But that’s not the only kind of humility all PAPI members are looking for, and it’s the other kind I suspect you are talking about.

Gray Doc: As a way of responding, let me tell you about my own reaction to Mohammed Ali, probably the greatest boxer that has ever lived. When I was a much younger person, I really disliked Mohammed Ali. He had faced prison rather than go to Vietnam, changed his name from Cassius Clay to something that I couldn’t pronounce, and he became a Muslim. So, he was already on the outs with me and the values I held then.

But he eventually returned to boxing, becoming the world heavyweight champion. He proclaimed himself “The Greatest,” and said things like “I’m so pretty” and in no way demonstrated any humility. I really disliked him. Almost hated him.  He projected something: hubris and arrogance. I wanted him brought low. Many years later, when I understood that part of my reaction was racist, I viewed Ali differently. I came to admire him. He was a man who refused to kowtow to racist ideology or play the role of the subservient man.  His braggadocio was well-earned. 

In fact, he WAS the greatest and his proclamation of it wasn’t just an act of personal ego-boosting, but was a kind of rallying cry for millions of people. And, of course, I later came to share his values regarding the Vietnam war and I respected his decision not to engage in military service. I saw, eventually, that the problem had never really been Mohammed Ali, but me.  I had the problem and I learned, over many years, to see things differently.

Seir Luciel: Like I said, there are things worth being proud about. Mohammed Ali deserved to be proud of his accomplishments just as Goons deserve to be proud of theirs. I don’t see any issue with this. What I take issue with, and I think many PAPI members take issue with, is when pride goes beyond one’s accomplishments.

Now, it isn’t what Goons have done that is commendable; now it is who they are, a feature of their being, posited as opposite the Great Satan of PAPI. It used to be, “Of course it would take all of EVE to fight Goons because that’s the only way pubbies could beat us.” Now, it’s “PAPI are evil, greedy, lying, botting cheaters who love tyranny and Goons are the only ones in space fighting for justice and who care about their members.”

Goon rhetoric shifted about when the ‘Serenity superstition‘ (or as you would say, certainty) started becoming dominant in the narrative. Even more specifically, I think this shift in rhetoric started happening when Goons realized PAPI actually was going to take the time to grind down all of Delve, actually was willing to be in a year-long war. Earlier rhetoric spoke of people getting tired, burned out, and going home; you don’t hear much of that anymore. I think when Goons realized PAPI was willing to stick it out no matter what, and really wasn’t going to peter out, their attitude changed.

It’s an odd war goal.  It’s personal, not strategic.

Gray

Gray Doc: Two points, if not counters.  First, I saw some meme that was quite hilarious which was a takeoff on the Monty Python routine of two knights fighting. The black knight refuses to kowtow to Arthur, who proceeds to chop off his arm, to which the black knight replies, “‘Tis but a scratch.” PAPI members love the meme and turned the black knight into Imperium, who refused to recognize how “dismembered” they were.

But what the meme also shows is how far the “noble” King Arthur was willing to go in the face of someone resistant. One arm, both arms, both arms and a leg, and finally, all limbs gone. If you look at the skit another way, the joke is on Arthur and what atrocities he was willing to commit, because if there was one thing he could not stand, it was still being resisted by someone defiant.

Like Matterall and his playground analogy: “If somebody’s still talking back after they’re on the ground, that’s different than someone on the ground whimpering. Like, there’s a different sense of mercy at that point.” Some people in PAPI want Imperium to whimper, to ask for mercy. That’s my point. It’s an odd war goal. It’s personal, not strategic. It speaks to personal ambition, retribution, an avid (almost obsessive) need for recognition, to be somebody.

I’ll let Henry V make my second point:

In peace there’s nothing so becomes a man

As modest stillness and humility:

But when the blast of war blows in our ears,

Then imitate the action of the tiger;

Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,

Disguise fair nature with hard-favour’d rage”

William Shakespeare – Henry V, Act 3, Scene 1

Goons are just doing what Henry was doing, rallying the troops. Put another way:

“The game’s afoot:

Follow your spirit, and upon this charge

Cry ‘God for Mittens, Imperium, and Saint Asher!’

Seir Luciel: I don’t think making The Imperium whimper was one of the war aims; at least, I hadn’t heard any PAPI members speaking in those terms. But I think it is becoming one of the war aims, especially as The Imperium’s rhetoric becomes more self-righteous. People are over it and are losing whatever sympathy they might have had for Goons. 

[S]ome Goons really believe that they effectively are God’s people in EVE

Seir

Quite right: PAPI loves that Monty Python meme with The Imperium as the black knight; it shorthands really well our viewpoint that Goons are completely disconnected from reality as we see it. But I want to touch on your “God for Mittens, Imperium, and Saint Asher” business. I think you are saying it here playfully, but some Goons really believe that they effectively are God’s people in EVE and are the chosen saints, warding off pubbie evil.

It’s some major fundamentalist, Goon exceptionalist stuff: what I’ve called “hubris.” I get that it’s war time and that means propaganda is going to spew, but whatever morale boost Goons are getting out of this rhetoric, it’s really sharpening the teeth of PAPI members out there. It’s a slippery slope from trying to convince others you’re the “good guys” to simply acting holier than thou. 

One of the Imperium’s meta tactics with their propaganda was to weaken PAPI members’ (and others’) confidence that Goons deserved what they were getting and that, maybe, they were fighting for the wrong side. But given recent developments in the narrative I think we are moving into a space where the question is less and less “do Goons deserve this?” and more and more “are they asking for it?”

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Comments

  • Moomin Amatin

    This war was started as a “war of extermination” to save the game from Goons having too much control. Note The Imperium had 4 regions and were in fact the smallest of the three largest blocs when looking at the current shape when it came to member count on Dotlan. But hey, never let facts get in the way of a good war/story right? While we are on the facts bit we should also remember that Legacy wanted The Imperium to help it attack PanFam. So this war is built on a series of lies. This is fine and seems very appropriate to Eve but it should not be forgotten.

    There has been a huge amount of nonsense from PAPI about fighting for the health of the game and that The Imperium is an existential threat to all of New Eden. Turns out PAPI wants to rent it all out, again. The best bit about this is that Legacy is now going to be the real loser in this war no matter what. They have trashed any reputation they have and are now condemned to fight a war that they end up losing no matter what. PanDaFam already have plans drawn up for the future of Legacy members. Will TAPI come to their aid?

    To cut a long story short, I think what you are seeing from The Imperium is not hubris at all. I think it relates more to the fact that the PAPI hypocrisy is now in plain sight and still PAPI members refuse to accept what their leaders say and what the map looks like. This is probably one of the funniest things you could present to a Goon. But hey, let’s get it on in 1DQ where we can watch The Legacy finally kill itself and it can have its name fixed in history. The Imperium will then rebuild as it has in the past and PanDaFam will rent out the rest with FIRE just as they have in the past. Look to the events after The Casino War for what happened.

    April 14, 2021 at 7:57 AM
  • Majestic

    Non-biased viewpoint? Just thoughts.

    – Who started this war?
    – TAPI. Definitely.

    – Why?
    – Coz they were touched at theirs private parts from 2 sides simultaniously. From the North by ‘Someone’, i don’t remember the exact name of the bloc or the alliance, but Ron said it on his stream somewhere in the past. From the West by Goons, who was doing ‘fun-fleets’ non-stop, without taking any sov, or systems, or bashing structures.

    – And?
    – Vily, brilliant strategist and Sun Tzu son, decided, that he should do something, to protect TAPI from war on 2 fronts. So, he asked Goons, if they are willing to help him to fight on the North. Goons said – No. Then, he asked PandaFam, if they are willing to help him to fight on the West. PandaFam said – Yes. The NIP died next day.

    – What happened then?
    – Blue Serenity emerged from the nightmare, SuperCapital fleets started to move to the Goons borders. Glassing of Fountain and Period Basis started in July or August 2020 if i remember right.

    – So, the main reason for WWB is Vily concerns about his TAPI survival and protection for krabs from… ‘fun-fleets’?
    – Yes. He said it himself, saying, this war is not carefully calculated, it can result into biggest victory for TAPI or its biggest fail.

    – Why he said that?
    – Because the main burgen of this war is on TAPI shoulders. Their home region is burning. Goons home region is burning, and they have said already – ‘Test is Next’. PandaFam/Frat regions stays intact. Vily knows, that without PandaFam SiperCapital umbrella TEST and Legacy is doomed, so demand guarantees to Vily personally, that they will protect him. Noraus admited it recently in open.

    – So, this was is nothing about ideology or Isk making narrative, but the pure survival of the TEST/Legacy. As I see, it is the weakest link in the Goons, PandaFam, Frat, Legacy chain. Vily just redirected the fire from his own home to the Goons home. Result? Both got burned, not as Vily planned so far.

    – Were there other options to avoid this mess?
    – Sure, they were. To negotiate to peace with your rivals, to form 4 sided Null FW MAP, with Goons, Test, PandaFam and Frat holding those region with border zones where Caps and Supers can be blown in festival fights or some kind of event fights, or some skirmishes, as HED point of war was. Millions of ways to create healthy approach to war and production, to development and entertainment. But, no, we faced this particular mess and real war of extermination of Goons / Legacy now.

    – What can be done?
    – I dont know, I’m just a bystander, I don’t take part in this war, just readind articles here and there, watching streams sometimes. Thats all.

    Any war ends with diplomacy sooner or later, this will end too. Only time will show how long this rediculous narrative will continue. Or how much time is needed for people to realize, that this war is Vily and only Vily attempt to stay on map.

    P.S. Sorry for my English and typos. English is not my native 🙂 Good luck to everyone and keep calm, because, as I see, the war is coming to the end. Industry changes are forcing all parts of war out of devastating blows into their SuperCapital umbrellas. Diplomacy left then?

    April 14, 2021 at 10:48 AM
    • Guilford Australis Majestic

      I agree that the defining characteristic of this war is its messiness.

      PAPI claimed that The Imperium needed to be reduced to the relative power of the rest of the nullsec blocs, but what they’re actually doing is destroying literally everything The Imperium owns and taking everything it holds, completing the fabled Blue Donut in the process while falsely claiming they don’t want a Blue Donut. If PAPI actually only intended to reduce The Imperium to the strength of the other null blocs, we might ask Seir Luciel whether he thinks the relative strength of his own alliance is having nothing and nowhere to live. These people are hypocrites and liars.

      The “hubris” angle is particularly interesting. Hubris is a defining characteristic of PanFam. At least Vily, PGL, and Dunk have admitted that failure is a possibility. During the Great War, BoB (NC.) famously announced “there are no more Goons” – shortly before being demolished by Goons. After the Casino War, PanFam boasted that Goons were done and would never threaten their great rental empires again. Now, we have a Pandemic Horde writer for INN on the record saying he thinks the best case scenario for PAPI is that Goons are permanently crippled and never again return to a position of strength.

      THAT is hubris.

      April 14, 2021 at 12:50 PM
      • Seir Luciel Guilford Australis

        So in sum, “No you!”

        April 14, 2021 at 3:21 PM
        • Guilford Australis Seir Luciel

          You’ve used the word “hubris” more than any person I’ve ever encountered, yet when I point out that it’s your side that has a history of making fantastical claims of having wiped out an enemy that later comes back to kick your teeth in, this is the best response you’ve got.

          April 14, 2021 at 3:32 PM
          • Seir Luciel Guilford Australis

            Refresh. I’ve edited more.

            April 14, 2021 at 3:35 PM
          • Seir Luciel Guilford Australis

            It’s true. I edited a bunch in after. I suspected that’s what you responded to, Guilford.

            April 14, 2021 at 3:50 PM
          • Guilford Australis Seir Luciel

            I’ve done the same thing. No worries.

            As far as the comparison is concerned, it’s fine to think that boastful and extravagant people and organizations deserve to be taken down a notch. But PAPI line members claim they are only trying to take The Imperium down a notch – totally don’t want to completely wipe it out. Well, what do you call destruction of every structure and seizure of every system and I-Hub, with those systems to be permanently inhabited by PAPI at the expense of the one null bloc that doesn’t belong to PAPI? Taking down a notch or wiping out?

            It’s always difficult to see your own side’s biases more than others’, so I’m sure The Imperium indulges its propaganda and just-so messaging as much as any other group. But the only hubris I see at this point in the war is PAPI’s conceit that it will finally wipe us out for good (while bizarrely denying that is actually what they’re doing).

            April 14, 2021 at 4:03 PM
          • Seir Luciel Guilford Australis

            I can’t speak for all of PAPI members, but I actually agree with Goons that they won’t be going anywhere, no matter what happens with the war. Yeah, we are destroying all of your structures and (fingers crossed) we will have a huge titan battle that will reduce both sides’ assets greatly. I’m hoping this war ends apocalyptically.

            But I don’t think wiping goons out for good is really possible. (I mean, it is possible, but not because of PAPI. Enough Goons would have to decide they don’t want to be Goons, and I don’t see that happening.) You have too many members and, maybe in large part because of that propaganda, Goons tend to be pretty unified. I’ve heard some PAPI people say that the war could put enough stress on Goons to collapse them, create internal strife, etc. but that’s not really where I’m coming from.

            For me this is a military campaign. Yeah, its a pretty brutal one, but Goons have seen and even induced fail-cascades; Goons have been around a while and they know the game. Frankly, though it sucks, I think Goons can take it. You don’t need anyone to baby you. That’s my opinion though. I believe if 1DQ is broken most PAPI members are going back home and the campaign will be over. I don’t know what Goons will do after, but so long as they stick together they will still have a huge member base.

            April 14, 2021 at 4:25 PM
          • Zaand Seir Luciel

            ” I believe if 1DQ is broken…”

            This is hubris. A lot can be said about M-2, but you have to admit that even without the massive tactical blunder that Villy made at the armor timer, any keepstar timer actually contested is going to be a titan meat grinder for TAPI, and you have 15 timers to grind through in 1DQ on the same grid. Then you get to grind through how many dozen faction forts? And that’s assuming the servers don’t catch fire.

            Goons are still at the “harassment” phase of this war. We haven’t even entered the meat grinder phase yet.

            April 16, 2021 at 1:59 AM
          • Elithiel en Gravonere Seir Luciel

            The hate for Goons is beyond a joke. It’s not like we actually do that much to deserve a dogpile. But dogpile is what we get time and again. This ongoing and never ending persecution of our People, has developed a culture that is used to being pummelled and under constant attack. Even in ‘peacetime’ we were constantly dropped on non-stop by both PanFam and wormholers. It was systemic, relentless and never stopped coming and yet that didn’t break us. The loss of the whole entire north, did not break us. The relentless and ongoing attacks from BoB 2.0 did not break us.

            So what makes you think Vily and PGL, far less capable, far weaker in strategy and tactics and knowledge than Sir Mole and others of the past, can break us? I just don’t get where this mentality comes from. We’ve proven time and again, that in any one on one encounter with Vily and PGL, we send TEST home in a box. They are poor at the fight compared to our FC’s (against the likes of Mr. Vee or Asher). Their reliance is upon N +1 to win the day. Ratios of 2 to 1 or 3 to1 are the only time they’ll take us on. Essentially a cowardly bunch.

            Pandemic Horde have unfortunately, grown in size to the point that they can fight us in somewhat of a professional manner but only because PL has mostly merged into them and taught them to improve their game. Gone are the days where I used to take my Rokh and blap 120 of their ships in a single fleet fight. But even Pandemic Horde, one on one, loses against Goons on most occasions. Only by forming most of the Galaxy against us, do they have a chance. Yet they are using the same doctrines as us, so it’s not about how rich we are, but how organised and combat ready we are.

            If the numbers were a bit more even, we’d be doing M2 everyday of the week.

            April 19, 2021 at 8:50 AM
        • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

          Your final point is spot on. One side is very public in their wealth and how it is come by. The other, less so. Now what side do you fight for? 😉

          April 14, 2021 at 5:03 PM
          • Seir Luciel Moomin Amatin

            I suppose the one who isn’t getting their head chopped off at the moment.

            April 14, 2021 at 5:07 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

            Given that The Imperium’s head (1DQ) is still very much intact I think I would be forgiven for describing your comment as hubris. Not even going to mention NPC Delve as we have covered that almost a year ago with The Mittani’s opening war statement.

            April 14, 2021 at 8:44 PM
          • Seir Luciel Moomin Amatin

            You are extending the analogy too far, beyond its capabilities. However, if you want construct 1DQ as a metaphor for Marie Antoinette’s head I won’t ask you to desist.

            April 14, 2021 at 8:57 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

            “North Korea” seems a bit of a stretch as well for a video game. Oh well. I will just add it to the dumb stuff PAPI has said during this war. It is proving to be quite the tome. “For us, this is a war of extermination” and “pre-staged” are my current favourites. Have you looked at the map yet and listened to Noraus and Vily?

            April 14, 2021 at 9:08 PM
        • Zaand Seir Luciel

          How many times do Goons have to literally be in the same place we are now and keep coming back before you people realize that we aren’t going anywhere and we will be back for our pound of flesh.

          I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, we were here long before all of you, and we’ll be here long after you’ve gone the way of BOB and PL. We *earned* our hubris.

          April 16, 2021 at 1:35 AM
        • So what you’re saying is that you’re the envy mob? Glad we cleared that up.

          April 16, 2021 at 4:42 AM
      • Ana Miller Guilford Australis

        You clearly do not have enough knowledge on the subject you are speaking on. Goons relative power are their numbers and their super fleet. Their super fleet with their numbers is so large a junior FC could take that fleet out and wreck any other 0.0 Alliance. That is the power that needs to be reduced. Their fleet currently is in 1dq intact. Goons will not fight anywhere with their super fleet except 1dq. Because they want to use the server issues against the attackers. They know that if they are all on grid nobody else can get on grid to fight that is why they have barricaded themselves into 1dq. They want the enemy to have to jump to them and there is what a 90% chance the server will fail like last time. until a good amount of their supers have been destroyed there power projection has essentially been untouched. So the whole thing of their space being burned and nowhere to live is a joke. They could jump out of 1dq and take almost any 0.0 space they want. Remember they are so strong its taking ALL of 0.0 to root them out. Goons are the blue donut in one alliance LOL.

        April 17, 2021 at 8:52 PM
        • Moomin Amatin Ana Miller

          But PAPI leadership are saying that The Imperium numbers are down and all of their super pilots have left with the aid of Fraternity leader Noraus. So which is it? Are The Imperium strong or weak as it seems you are not on the same page as PAPI leadership. Perhaps you do not have enough knowledge on what you are talking about huh? – heh

          April 18, 2021 at 6:48 AM
        • If PAPI are bigger and span all those regions and that makes them a blue donut, I suppose that makes us the red hole. I’m honored to be a part of such a faction 😀

          April 22, 2021 at 1:43 AM
    • Gwailar Majestic

      This is a very good analysis, IMO.

      April 14, 2021 at 12:50 PM
    • Seir Luciel Majestic

      “- Were there other options to avoid this mess?
      – Sure, they were. To
      negotiate to peace with your rivals, to form 4 sided Null FW MAP, with
      Goons, Test, PandaFam and Frat holding those region with border zones
      where Caps and Supers can be blown in festival fights or some kind of
      event fights, or some skirmishes, as HED point of war was. Millions of
      ways to create healthy approach to war and production, to development
      and entertainment. But, no, we faced this particular mess and real war
      of extermination of Goons / Legacy now.”

      I don’t understand. This sounds exactly like the blue donut no-sov-warfare Serenity politics Goons have been complaining about. Like you said, you are just a bystander, but the people upvoting you aren’t. Are Goons mad because (as they see it; I disagree) Serenity 2.0 is happening; or simply because they weren’t invited to the party and now are calling the party stupid?

      Whatever happens in EVE war shouldn’t become sports. Battles should have stakes and winners should win something and losers should lose something. No safety nets, no gutter rails, no re-loading your past save. EVE should be hardcore mode.

      April 14, 2021 at 3:11 PM
      • Majestic Seir Luciel

        1. If you think, that people can’t hunt for sport’s reasons (without wiping all animal population – you are wrong. Huntng is sports / activity today for people.
        2. PanFam could be dead by now, if CCP allowed it to happen. CCP protected PanFam from complete wipe with stupid “Sleeper’s Invasion” in Null region in June 2019. Should I remind you, that “Sleeper’s Invasion” took place amid of Goon’s SuperCapital OP on the North?

        “Coalition The imperium prematurely interrupted the war with another coalition Pandemic family (PanFam) to protect their possessions.
        Source: https://schkola4kotovo.ru/en/eve-online-driftery-vnezapnoe-vtorozhenie-drifterov-floty-skitalcev/

        So, to be clear here.

        PanFam was overprotected by CCP, not by their military or strategic or economics brilliance, and now teaches others about “hubris” …?

        April 14, 2021 at 4:52 PM
      • Zaand Seir Luciel

        “they weren’t invited to the party ”

        Test asked Imperium to blue up and fight panfam first. We graciously declined.

        April 16, 2021 at 2:04 AM
    • Ana Miller Majestic

      Fuck that nonsense. Goons wanted it now they got it. They have no friends left cause they are dick bags and 0.0 has had enough of their bullshit. Now they burn. They are welcome to relocate to different 0.0 or NPC space.

      April 17, 2021 at 8:46 PM
      • Majestic Ana Miller

        Emotions and insults doesnt make your arguments more valid or true.
        The only one who is relocating right now is TEST. Probably, to their own grave. 🙂

        April 18, 2021 at 6:33 AM
      • Moomin Amatin Ana Miller

        You seem to be hoping that The Imperium “just moves” still it seems. A feature of the PAPI extermination plan.

        April 18, 2021 at 6:49 AM
        • Dripple Moomin Amatin

          Imperium “moving on” would be the smart way to go if Imperium cared about its survival.
          If you think an alliance hoping to have/harbor any kind of super fleet can sustain it in NPC nullsec without any keepstars, you are greatly mistaken.
          However Imperium has chosen “mutual destruction” path, and with “mutual destruction” I mean Imperium has decided to avenge TEST for their downfall.
          Incase 1DQ falls and there is going to be huge super battle where lets say everyone, every single participating alliance loses every single super, you think Imperium can rebuild their super armada in NPC Delve?
          No. all they can do is slow TEST from rebuilding their supers and let Panfam and Fraternity adjust to scarcity update and start rebuilding their super fleet.
          In this scenario result will be the “blue donut/single dominant entity” in nullsec which they so desire, just to prove everyone else “how they are essential” for nullsec.
          Maybe that’s Imperiums goal all along.

          April 18, 2021 at 11:20 PM
          • Novartis Dripple

            Would you leave your house if burglars and your neighbor just barge in uninvited and told you to leave house while they plunder it? Would you?

            No. That’s what the Goons did. PAPI entered Imperium home uninvited, and want to take their land. Unlike in Casino war, Imperium is better prepared to defend themselves, that’s why they choose to barricade, not flee.

            Also, if in this scenario imperium does flee, where to go? There’s a clear difference between coward, stupid and smart.

            April 19, 2021 at 12:09 AM
          • Dripple Novartis

            I’m going to assume that you are American.
            this argument just sounds too much of people opposing gun control.
            However this issue is quite bit different than”home invasions where you shoot someone because they want to steal your TV”
            Point I made is that Imperium can’t survive as an entity they currently are in NPC null.
            Imperium is going to make their last stand and all respect and honor for that, but saying “we don’t have consistency plan, all we are going to do with our last breath is to grief TEST” doesn’t go with their “we are going to survive” objective

            April 19, 2021 at 12:22 AM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            TAPI has no objective now aside from to survive this themselves. They started this war and they are going to kill themselves with it. How funny is that?

            PAPI will continue to prance around 1DQ while avoiding it. PanDaFam are happy with the state of things as they are, they can expand their empire unhindered in the main.

            So the reality is that 1DQ is going to cost a lot. The Imperium has no issue with that cost. PAPI does. PAPI are running out of excuses for not attacking 1DQ. At some point PAPI have to attack 1DQ or their leadership looks weak and/or wrong. All The Imperium has to do is to survive “extermination”.

            April 19, 2021 at 3:51 AM
          • Novartis Dripple

            it might be, but the main point isn’t how the current condition, but how it will play out in the future. Goons had proven time to time, that what had break other coalition or alliance isn’t the case for them. And they also know how big the super fleet required to take down 1DQ, quite possibly at the point that PAPI currently still not willing to sacrifice for the meatgrinder. Unless PAPI has a solid plan to break 1DQ, I would have to say that Goons tactic is brutally effective. So long as they could make sure they had the patience and morale required, even if they holed up in 1DQ, and PAPI still don’t have any solid plan to break it, damn it they survive, like it or not. Their objective could technically be said accomplished.

            And also I’m not that radical about gun control, and if that thing happen to me I won’t mind to blast em’ out. They choose to do it, and they have to know well, like it or not, what is the consequence of their action.

            April 19, 2021 at 3:50 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            No. The smart thing to do was to build up in Delve knowing that BoB and its proxies would come for The Imperium again. And here we are. This time The Imperium prepared for the inevitable.

            PanDaFam is the dominant force in New Eden and has been for years. TAPI in their need for glory, fame and content have created an environment that serves PanDaFam very well.

            Just before Christmas both Legacy and PanDaFam members were being told to “redouble your efforts for one last push as we are almost there”. Half a year on and some in PAPI are now saying that this is still going to take a year or more.

            The Imperium knows that 1DQ will be bloody and they are not only prepared for it they are eager for it. When it comes to rebuilding there is no one in New Eden who can do it quite like The Imperium can and has.

            Perhaps this is the PanDaFam plan, to keep The Imperium contained while they rent out the rest of New Eden.

            April 19, 2021 at 3:43 AM
          • Bruh moving is so much work: why would we do that when we can just stay in 1DQ and have daily content delivered literally unto our doorstep?

            Where would we move in EVE online right now where we’d have more fun than in Delve? Everywhere else is a wasteland sparsely-populated by krabs and botters. Where’s the fun in taking space amongst their kind?

            We already have the best real-estate in New Eden: front row seats to all the best carnage. We’re not going anywhere, and PAPI can’t move us. So here we are: an object lesson in what happens when an unstoppable force meets and immovable object.

            April 22, 2021 at 1:48 AM
      • Not according to PAPI fuckpersons we aren’t: apparently we’re to be hunted to extinction, everywhere, forever, by a neverending blue-donut Goon Patrol coalition 😛

        April 22, 2021 at 1:45 AM
  • yogizh

    Never not construct additional pylons.

    This dumb ideology war is going on for too long. No matter how to you as a player percieve the game, politics, alliances, there are facts.

    Fact is that Goons have been the most consistent entity in nullsec. If you look at outside politics, internal rules, way how new players are being made. It is always been pretty much the same. The same way you can get scammed and laughed at by Goons, you can deal with Goons and get a fair deal.

    It is about the consistency, stability, making people willing to invest because they know it is their best bet in the constant fluidity of sov in the rest of Eve. There is nothing to prove about this. I always hated Delve as a region, but we made it into a home and the years are counting.

    April 14, 2021 at 11:50 AM
  • Guilford Australis

    Goonswarm is “a kind of North Korea of null”?

    I guess in my three years in Goonswarm I must have missed the poverty, critical resource shortages, forced labor, and frequent confiscation property by the regime at gunpoint. But GSF has *propaganda* (which NO other organization in EVE, such as, say Pandemic Horde has, and there is TOTALLY not a weekly propaganda day on the EVE subreddit that is dominated by TEST cretins), so it’s North Korea.

    Okay.

    April 14, 2021 at 11:51 AM
    • Alaric Faelen Guilford Australis

      Exactly. I had a hard time reading that paragraph over the mountain of isk and blinged out ships I have in Delve. North Korea, indeed.

      April 14, 2021 at 2:11 PM
      • Imagine if North Korea owned 50% of the nukes on the planet.

        April 14, 2021 at 2:29 PM
        • Novartis Zaand

          And they outproduce every single country in the world also

          April 14, 2021 at 4:25 PM
        • Carvj94 Zaand

          And had a bigger GDP than the EU and US combined.

          April 15, 2021 at 8:11 AM
    • Seir Luciel Guilford Australis

      Perhaps I should have been more clear. The comparison to North Korea wasn’t an economic one, or a military one, or a comparison to tyranny. The point was that many PAPI members see (many, perhaps not all) Goons as brainwashed. Those who extend the comparison beyond its original context are missing the point.

      Personally,I don’t think that is the case with all Goons, but I also through INN have more contact with the other side than many PAPI line members.

      April 14, 2021 at 2:52 PM
      • Guilford Australis Seir Luciel

        The original context of the comparison was that Goons are North Korea because of propaganda. I correctly observed that PAPI is absolutely marinating in “brainwash”-inducing propaganda, as even a cursory glance at the subreddit will confirm. By your logic, does that make you “a kind of North Korea of null”?

        April 14, 2021 at 3:31 PM
        • Seir Luciel Guilford Australis

          I’m not on reddit. So maybe, but I wouldn’t know.

          April 14, 2021 at 3:33 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

            I suggest you pop over to Reddit then and look at what PAPI members have been posting for almost a year. You have been missing out on some stuff that may give you moment to pause and reconsider some of your views.

            Let us start with PanDaFam having been a thing since 2019 in all reality, more so now. How many members are in PanDaFam and how much power and space do they have? I do not expect you to answer this by the way as I know it is not a comfortable answer for you. Oh well. But Goons….. well they are too big and too powerful….. – lol. The winners in the war are PanDaFam and of that there is no doubt.

            April 14, 2021 at 4:45 PM
          • Romulus Loches Seir Luciel

            While I applaud the effort to resist spending time on Reddit, I’m troubled by this statement. You have been reporting about events while avoiding a platform that arguably allows for the average Eve player to best express their feelings. I’m tempted to say that r/eve is another whole front where the war is being fought.

            I personally feel that r/eve is a toxic cesspool, but that doesn’t mean it can be ignored when gathering information.

            April 14, 2021 at 6:13 PM
          • Seir Luciel Romulus Loches

            That which is worth paying attention to tends to get filtered into the places where I do spend my time. I’ll let others wade through the “cesspool” and do the sorting for me; that way I spend less time sorting and more time thinking about the diamonds pulled from the rough.

            April 14, 2021 at 7:22 PM
          • Romulus Loches Seir Luciel

            Based on your previous statement about not knowing about PAPI propaganda, your process isn’t that effective. It might be time you put on a pair of boots and do some serious research, not just count on the pre-filtered information you are being fed.

            April 14, 2021 at 7:51 PM
          • Seir Luciel Romulus Loches

            Perhaps. My thinking goes like this: There are far more readers than there are writers, more listeners than posters. Reading reddit (or even INN) comments isn’t actually getting a pulse on the general opinion of a group. Rather, what you end up reading, almost by definition, is coming from the most vocal and adamant minority within a group. I’m less interested in what some loud PAPI member rails about on reddit than what I hear in chat and on comms from average PAPI members. I see one body of material a much more authentic representation of opinion than the other.

            Furthermore, simply because someone posts loudly on reddit doesn’t mean that the more general readership agree with him, or that his/her message is influencing general opinion. Quite possibly, the quit majority think the guy is an idiot.

            It isn’t merely the messages that are important, but their general reception. The latter is much harder to identify while the former is vulgar and obvious. I’m much less interested in the opinions of reddit posters than the opinions of those who read them, as represented in other places.

            Maybe I’m going about it the wrong way; maybe you are right to question my methodology. But I do think about it, and I appreciate the criticism.

            April 14, 2021 at 8:25 PM
          • Romulus Loches Seir Luciel

            What I’m saying is that you need to do both, because you’re obviously missing an important piece of the picture.

            You are right that reddit has more passive readers and fewer loud voices that post, but that is why there is upvoting for threads and comments (in theory). Also, it’s hard to talk about a meme on comms unless you actually link the image. Maybe your comms are full of people who like to debate the finer points of the perspectives in the war, but mine are usually focused on things like what kind of beer people are drinking. Not to say that there isn’t talk and you can’t get a pulse reading of how people feel, just that there’s a lot more out there.

            April 15, 2021 at 2:26 PM
          • Ana Miller Romulus Loches

            Romulus is such a sweaty nerd trying to score points for his nerd goonies while they huddle scared in 1dq. No amount of posting will get you out of 1dq. You are trapped in a closet (1dq) trying to shit post LOL. BIG BRAIN

            April 17, 2021 at 8:41 PM
          • Romulus Loches Ana Miller

            Grow up. I don’t care who is ‘winning’ cause I think we are all having a great time in this war. I do want Seir to improve as a writer because I enjoy reading the articles and perspective.

            April 19, 2021 at 6:05 AM
          • Zaand Seir Luciel

            I just have to point out the irony of you continuing to respond to comments here but you refuse to go to Reddit, which is basically THIS, but like, good.

            You obviously like to write, go and hone your sword in the Reddit abyss by destroying Goons with words. You’re basically missing an entire front of the war. The forums and the boards and the chats are where the “real” war is fought.

            April 16, 2021 at 1:14 AM
          • William Doe Romulus Loches

            Toxic Cesspool is an understatement. I actively avoid that cancer-filled circlejerk tryhards (mainly PAPI cheerleaders) of a subreddit entirely. I think when the war is over I wouldn’t consider it safe to go back, there’ll still be the mouthbreathing tryhards spouting their non-sense. Though it might be a tiny bit less toxic than it normally is when things have cooled down a bit.

            Subreddits of certain game communities can bring out the worse in people. I frequent the Path of Exile subreddit and recent events (mainly nerfs) were announced it got a pretty good reactionary shitstorm from PoE’s reddit community, most especially with all the nerfs introduced this week in crapping on the meta due to an upcoming new league release for tomorrow. But it got enough of a backlash from that it actually fragmented a group of people trolling those who were legitimately upset of the nerfs to the point the trolls sounded like a bunch of apologists for the devs back-asswards stance.

            April 16, 2021 at 2:13 AM
          • Romulus Loches William Doe

            I can’t really speak to subreddits outside of r/eve. My opinion of the Eve reddit is fairly obvious, but I do frequent it because it’s important to gather information from multiple sources. You just need some galoshes, a stiff drink, and a mountain of salt to balance the rampant propaganda (from all sides).

            April 19, 2021 at 5:59 AM
          • Ana Miller Romulus Loches

            Sure it does. Just like you can report the news without watching AL Jazeera.

            April 17, 2021 at 8:37 PM
      • Mr Augur Seir Luciel

        Simple line member (like me) don’t need to be brainwashed they just might be loyal to theirs battlebrothers or simply like to fly with those unbelive bustards and great FC’s.

        April 15, 2021 at 5:58 PM
      • We don’t need brainwashing to see that yall are a bunch of tryhard, sweaty-ass bullies trying your damndest to gangbang our alliance to death because you need to prove that you’re real bois: it’s pretty obvious from your faction’s actions and constant shitposting.

        In real life you’d probably succeed in bludgeoning people into compliance, but you guys forget– the way you always do, and always have done over the decades– that this is a videogame. We’re not gonna lose friends and loved ones over this conflict. We’re not going to lose our lives. You can’t intimidate us into compliance because there’s literally nothing for us to lose beyond some space-stuff. Why would we beg for mercy when we can instead keep killing you where and when we like for fun until we get bored of it?

        At the end of the day, you have this fundamental issue: PAPI are a bunch of sweaty fucking nerds and I (and presumably plenty of others like me) would literally rather lose all our space-shit and either go with the flow and do whatever comes next with our friends or just quit the game than join your shitty coalition. Goonfleet, Goonswarm, and the Imperium have always been and will always be about having fun playing EVE together. I don’t know how to communicate this point to PAPI people effectively because they seem to have a complete blind spot for this entire paradigm, but let me repeat: it’s about having fun playing a game together. Nobody in the group minds when we happen to construct the greatest space-empire in EVE history, or set online gaming carnage records, or when we get rich a/f, or when we get to turbodunk on some roaming frigate gang with 20 titans– these are certainly happy incidentals, but the primary objective is to chill and have fun together.

        By way of contrast, BoB and their descendants have always been about elitism: proving to the rest of the EVE community that you are the best at EVE. It’s about getting that space-money, flaunting those supercaps, and dunking on anyone who dares even suggest that they could challenge your supremacy. I know a lot of Goons who’ve been playing EVE for decades now, who are having more fun in this war suiciding Thrashers into your shitty T5Z gatecamps than they had in the previous ten years flying their supercaps. We jump in, we smoke a few expensive things worth 10x more than our gang, and we die. You guys gloat in local about how you killed us and how you’re going to kill our alliance. We reship and do it again because we don’t care if we die or if we’re poor or if ~*insert any of the other things*~ as long as we can get the boys together most nights of the week and have fun dorking around for a few hours.

        If this is what being brainwashed feels like, OK. Whatever. Brainwashed into not obsessing over my video-game reputation. Ouch. Zing. So sad I wasted my life this way when if I had put my mind to it and worked really hard for years I might have been able to snag an invite to join Pandemic Legion. Wow.

        April 16, 2021 at 1:51 AM
      • Ana Miller Seir Luciel

        It was clear what you meant and it was spot on. They are losing and do not want to admit it. Even if they get cleared out of 1dq they will still say they wont because they still login. They are delusional.

        April 17, 2021 at 8:33 PM
        • same like you are been winner :9

          April 18, 2021 at 8:56 PM
    • Rayford Carpathia Guilford Australis

      I don’t think North Korea has nations tripping over themselves trying to steal their land and resources.

      April 18, 2021 at 3:40 PM
    • he is karma fleet be easy :))))

      April 18, 2021 at 8:52 PM
  • Democritus

    Anything said about Goons pales completely and utterly in comparison to the reality that XiX and now likely PL use 0.0 as a rental empire to sell ISK for hard $$$. The fact that so many PAPI line members think that this future for 0.0 (hello Serenity server) and delusionally fight for it is beyond me. My only suggestion is to read up on the history of XiX and ask yourself why PL is so close to them in the same rental business next door.

    April 14, 2021 at 12:36 PM
  • Alaric Faelen

    I think all the talk of hubris and propaganda comes because of a lack of interesting content. When the war is boring– which after almost a year of dodging set piece battles, blobbing a smaller foe, and often losing to that smaller foe– you need SOMETHING to hang your hat on. When you can’t sell your war as fun or decisive content, then all you are left with are words.
    We’ve gone from ‘extermination’ to ‘humbling’ as an ultimate goal. Talk about epic level backpedaling! At this point PAPI leadership is basically trying to pitch that participation trophies are as good as victory.
    All PAPI can do now is damage Goons as much as possible then turtle up and hope Goons carry out their revenge against someone else. Horde, Brave, etc are all clinging to Goons’ claims of Test is Next, secure that they can disengage the war and go back to life as it was, even more secure now that GSF is weakened and focused on a different enemy. Leave TEST to deal with 10,000 angry bees.
    TEST desperately needs a ‘win’ before the coalition goes home to do something…anything…other than a poorly handled, slog of a war that has become a millstone around the necks of all involved.
    All the propaganda and hubris in the world doesn’t cover for the behind-the-scenes realtalk we’ve seen from alliances like Brave, who are stuck in a war they didn’t expect to go this long or this badly.

    April 14, 2021 at 1:41 PM
  • Zaand

    “the only fuel in left in Goonswarm’s tank is their own propaganda”

    PAPI needs this to be true. You can talk about who’s burning out faster, but at the end of the day, the average Imperium member has a hell of a lot more fight left in them than PAPI wants to admit. We know that their entire plan was for Imperium to just kind of up and leave after the first major battle. As far as we’re concerned, burn our shit to the ground. Who gives a fuck. We’ll have our infrastructure rebuilt long before PAPI replaces the titans it cost to destroy it. 1DQ is where the war will be fought, so good luck when you get to the meat grinder phase of this war.

    “Earlier rhetoric spoke of people getting tired, burned out, and going home; you don’t hear much of that anymore. I think when Goons realized PAPI was willing to stick it out no matter what, and really wasn’t going to peter out, their attitude changed”

    This is some great revisionism. From the first fireside before the NIP even dropped Imperium leadership warned everyone that this war could last years. We were ecstatic. Again, PAPI leadership NEEDED Goons to give up and quit early because they could not guarantee that their own pilots would be willing to suffer through a year plus of structure bashes and sov wanding.

    “An avid (almost obsessive) need for recognition, to be somebody.”

    This. This is hitting the nail on the head. Test isn’t pissed about Goon’s “hubris” all of a sudden. We’ve been arrogant little shits since our first days in Syndicate and you’re just now noticing it? No, the real issue is the same one that sparked the Fountain War: Test is a sad cargo-cult imitation of Goons, and they’ve always lived under our shadow. Montolio got too big for his britches and thought that it was Test’s turn to be the irreverent no-fucks-given clowns of eve, so he tried to start internal drama until we had to put Test back in its place.

    This exact thing is happening again right now. Test wants to BE Goons so badly, and every time we refuse to relent the mantle, it pisses them off. It’s pure projection. They’re mad because they know that we deserve our hubris. We’ve earned it, and there is nothing they can do about it.

    Goons were here before any of the entities attacking us, and we’ll be here long after they all dissappear.

    April 14, 2021 at 2:28 PM
    • yogizh Zaand

      Ice cold. Also Montolio lmao.

      April 14, 2021 at 7:26 PM
    • Carvj94 Zaand

      Yea that’s the thing. Goons are fighting a defensive war in their own region after years of being forced to go on deployments for pvp. Not only can they simply not just give up and leave but they are still happy to be able to fight so close to home. PAPI meanwhile has been deployed for over a year now meaning its been harder for their line members to make ends meet cause they’re in hostile space with little infrastructure so they can’t make much isk. Beyond the fact that the war has dragged on FAR longer than they intended their line members have been forced to jump clone around or use alts just to make ends meet. All while goons are making about as much isk as always because PAPI can’t lock down good systems for long enough to disrupt industry. It’s a war of attrition and clearly PAPI can’t last.

      April 15, 2021 at 8:09 AM
      • Ana Miller Carvj94

        What are you talking about you only have one constellation left. Delve is PAPIS home more then it is Goons now as they have the SOV. Goons are so pinned down PAPI is out ratting in Carriers FFS. IN DELVE. PAPI isnt on deployment, More like PAPI came and took your toys away and now is playing with your toys in your bedroom while your locked in the closest saying we didn’t want those toys anyways! PAPI can keep you locked in your closest for ever.

        April 17, 2021 at 8:03 PM
        • Carvj94 Ana Miller

          What do you mean “you”? I’m not a goon and I don’t even live in null sec. But looking at kill boards and maps shows that your not living in reality right now. Goons still control most of Delve and PAPI definitely aren’t doing much PVE in Delve.

          April 17, 2021 at 8:44 PM
        • Zaand Ana Miller

          Have fun ratting under the largest single super armada in the game. We’re not going anywhere.

          April 19, 2021 at 2:12 PM
  • Havish Montak

    I’m gonna enjoy making their Passpi line member wallets bleed.

    April 14, 2021 at 2:32 PM
  • ShutUp ShutUp

    …but we ARE the chosen ones, and you ARE the pubbie scum. That’s not hubris, that’s just truth.

    April 14, 2021 at 2:35 PM
    • Seir Luciel ShutUp ShutUp

      “Pubbie” is a slur.

      April 14, 2021 at 4:00 PM
    • Moomin Amatin ShutUp ShutUp

      You did get a reply from Seir but they deleted it. As I wrote a response I will post the whole thing here:

      Seir wrote:
      “Pubbie” is a slur.

      Moomins wrote:
      So when PAPI wins a fight you all sit around and call each other Goons? Let’s not pretend that Goons has not been used as a slur also. You should have seen the comment for what it was, a simple joke, like your war of extermination and the talking points you seem determined to hang onto while not looking at the sov map ;-).

      April 14, 2021 at 4:16 PM
      • Guilford Australis Moomin Amatin

        I’m not sure the average Goon even knows what “pubbie” means. It originated from public commenters on Something Awful (who were too cheap to pay their $10 subscription fee or whatever it was). Public = “pubbie.”

        It refers to someone outside the community. That’s it.

        April 14, 2021 at 4:26 PM
        • Moomin Amatin Guilford Australis

          The worst bit for me is that in one of my more recent pieces I explained exactly this point. I also confess openly to being a member of the :+10bux: club and I started out in TAPI.

          April 14, 2021 at 4:33 PM
          • Seir Luciel Moomin Amatin

            You “explained” it, but I didn’t buy your explanation. Ultimately it is a kind of othering. I think Goons are the only group to use an EVE slur. I get that it is all in good fun, and its not that big a deal. I deleted my comment right after for a reason. But it is a particular cultural artifact of EVE online that I think has some sociological interest.

            April 14, 2021 at 4:53 PM
          • Guilford Australis Seir Luciel

            You can’t be serious. Have you never heard “carebear,” “nullbear,” “filthy krab” (once a favorite slur of the formerly prominent alliance Pandemic Legion, in your own coalition), “calm down miner” (with “miner” referring derisively to anyone who was ganked while doing anything, such as running DED 5/10 sites in a Marauder)?

            EVE isn’t a polite community. Pretending this stuff is unique to Goons is ridiculous.

            April 14, 2021 at 5:10 PM
          • Seir Luciel Guilford Australis

            I stand corrected. However, “pubbie” is interesting in its scope. “Carebear” and “nullbear” target how one plays, or where one plays. “Filthy Krab” and “Pubbie” derive their meaning based on what group one belongs to; one’s identity vs. one’s activities. “Filthy Krab” targets a specific group, while “Pubbie” is anyone who isn’t Goons.

            The word “Pubbie” creates a kind of dualism (Goons/not Goons) in a way that the other words don’t.

            April 14, 2021 at 5:17 PM
          • Vertigoe Seir Luciel

            Let me insert “Pet” here which was coined as a derogatory term by your defeated leaders from The Great War to refer to their renters and any other alliances in their sphere. It is still to this day used as a derogatory term In reference to others outside of a group, meaning subservient to me or others.

            So which is worse in your eyes, Pet or Pubbie, you have made your choice in your actions.

            April 15, 2021 at 1:15 AM
          • Seir Luciel Vertigoe

            Two wrongs don’t make a right. Finding things wrong with another group does not absolve you from your own wrongs; that goes for my group as well any other.

            Neither “Pubbie” nor “Pet” is worse, they are both wrong and in bad taste. My position: don’t use them. Call people by their name.

            April 15, 2021 at 2:38 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Seir Luciel

            Where was such civility when PAPI were burning down Fountain? That’s right, it was absent. Just as it is absent so many other times. The one thing this war is really bringing out is the utter hypocrisy of some. Best war to date.

            April 15, 2021 at 2:46 PM
          • Vertigoe Seir Luciel

            If you don’t want the wrongs of your own group mentioned especially when your own group is doing the exact same thing dont bother bringing up that subject. Just makes you look like a hypocrite.

            April 15, 2021 at 4:38 PM
          • Seir Luciel Vertigoe

            Any person interested in a better New Eden and EVE community wants the wrongs of any group brought up, their own included.

            People only interested in tribalism are satisfied with “you do it too.” The context is not “I don’t dislike this group because” but “what kind of community do we want?”

            An example of this is my article “What’s In A Name” where I argue that Goonswarm’s name should be returned to Imperium along with Band of Brother’s held by your alliance. Both my group and your group are implicated. I think it pairs nicely with this topic. Names shouldn’t be stolen, and they should be called by their chosen name. Don’t you agree?

            April 15, 2021 at 7:11 PM
          • Vertigoe Seir Luciel

            I actually agreed with you on that topic, that we can agree on.

            April 15, 2021 at 8:43 PM
  • kwnyupstate .

    Goons won the big engagement of the war so far (M-2 battles).
    Goons have won the isk war.
    PAPI is scared to attack 1DQ.
    How are goons losing?
    And yes I understand the whiny ass PAPI (WAP) are angry that PAPI has lost the war so far.

    April 14, 2021 at 4:43 PM
  • Dripple

    I absolutely agree on claims made in this article.

    I think part of the reason why PAPI:s fighting morale is so high is how Imperium have reacted to this war. This war could have gone as goons expected and hoped, that PAPI will get bored and tired to structure grind and the war wouldn’t last this long, but constant demeaning, ignorance and pure dickery has kept people dedicated to this war.
    INN is THE most influential and most watched news organisation in both sides of the EVE, when they make these public disgusting personal/entity attacks “pick up guilds” “Horde are Test slaves” “pubbies” “Vily this and that” “PGL this and that” “Fraternity is going to backstab everyone” it makes this war more personal, than it truthfully needs to be.

    War is part of EvE, war is necessary for economy, its necessary to prevent stagnation, its necessary to attract new members to null.

    Imperium has dug their own grave with their failed diplomacy and hubris “Nothing can threaten Imperium, we are invincible boasting”

    April 14, 2021 at 9:17 PM
    • Moomin Amatin Dripple

      Wow, that is a whole lot of made up. The Imperium fully expected to be in NPC Delve in October last year. I wrote as much on INN and so did others. The fact that The Imperium is not is simply amazing. No other group has stood against so much for so long as The Imperium has.

      What we have seen in this war is the PAPI narrative crash into reality and its members are not happy about it. Your talking points do not match up with what PAPI leadership are saying. The Legacy asked The Imperium to remove PanFam first. Both PanDaFam and The Legacy are bigger in member count according to Dotlan. There are so many PAPI lies that are easily dispelled by looking at a map. Meanwhile there is talk of “Wardens of Eve” and apparently that is not a problem as it is being run by PAPI. Keep posting.

      April 14, 2021 at 9:56 PM
      • Dripple Moomin Amatin

        “The Legacy asked The Imperium to remove PanFam first”
        The table would be completely different if Imperium had chosen differently, but they didn’t, thats why “failed diplomacy” What you mean with PAPI narrative? one about “extermination” “saving EVE” “causing economic damage” what? are you one of those people who keep parroting “x people want to ban cows because of their farts, they are gonna take your freedom burgers away!!!” people?

        Imperium failed pre-war, they failed the war and what they have left is barking about how “We are gonna be Mordus Angels v2 and grief you, so you cant win the war”

        Please next time point which of my arguments are lies instead of going “something something are lies”

        April 15, 2021 at 1:53 AM
        • Novartis Dripple

          Let’s make some real world comparison, shall we?

          Let’s imagine Europe Union as one entity, and their leader is having a grudge with US for being at the peak of industrial might, and also be self sufficient without engaging in global trade at all. Now imagine Europe Union, in search for new land to expand their territory(and hopefully could topple US on the way), ask US this: “Hey, why don’t we team up and beat Russia, and take their own land for us?” However US said something like: “No, we’re not interested, we have enough of land and currently we’re not interested to do that, we would still help you if Russia attack first, but we won’t attack out of nowhere, but if you want to wage war against Russia, don’t bother us in the way.”

          Annoyed, Europe Union then approach Russia, asking nearly the same question: “Hey, do you want to help me bash US?”, and Russia answered: “Sure, we’d like to, when do we start?” and after that, Europe Union also got the support of PRC, South Korea, Japan, and Southern America Countries. Problem is, at this moment, Europe Union on the outside is still US allies. Wow , such backstabbing!

          Then, Europe Union spew something like: “We’re here to exterminate US!”, and other, even if they just interested in killing US, just play along, because, hey, that’s still align with our motives right?

          Then there’s also talking about creating several separate agency, with each overlooking each continent, to make sure US could never rebuild.

          Quite clear I think why they goes angry? Oh, and the country being used here is just to help visualize, no real politic agenda inserted.

          April 15, 2021 at 7:34 AM
          • Dripple Novartis

            your comparison does explain the situation clearly, however i wouldn’t call it straightforward backstabbing, Legacy did give announcement that NIP will be severed in certain time, we aren’t talking about blitzkrieg or attacking unannounced, it was quite clear that moment when NIP was severed there would be a war. (but you can call it a backstabbing I don’t mind, its matter of interpretation, I’m sure Moomin will come here frothing “how its unfair that you declared war on us, so we can’t rat and mine in peace to keep up our RLM empire”

            however I would make a claim, that Imperium made a mistake on reading the current atmosphere of nullsec, war was inevitable, but the battle lines weren’t drawn yet.
            I also make another bold assumption and claim that Imperium thought they could just sit out of upcoming war and 3th party for content without risking their assets and join the war if they felt like it.
            It also could be that their “undisputed spymasters” is too detached from EvE today that hes spy networks had failed him.

            So if Imperium had picked the side or started to gather allies to form bloc of their own on upcoming war, they wouldn’t be left alone to fight. No peace lasts forever in EVE, nor it should be.
            You either actively participate in null politics or let others determine it for you.

            April 15, 2021 at 2:11 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Dripple

            The Legacy were in talks with the rest of PAPI prior to notifying The Imperium of terminating the agreement. For me that has broken the spirit of the agreement. If The Imperium had done the same as TAPI has done there would be no end of screeching. TAPI do not have a great track record when it comes to diplomacy. Just ask Co2, FCON or The Watchmen for instance.

            The Imperium built up in Delve with the full knowledge that the same lot as from The Casino War would be back at it some day and here we are. This was not a surprise to anyone in The Imperium. If anything the only surprise was that this did not happen sooner.

            April 15, 2021 at 2:53 PM
          • Novartis Dripple

            The problem here isn’t when Legacy cut the NIP, the problem is when Legacy approach PanFam to bash Goons. If I’m allied with Legacy, I would be quite uncomfortable knowing that my ally could just one day out of nowhere decide to collaborate with enemy to bash me while we were still blue and NIP.

            In real world, those thing are called treason, and in most case, treason is regarded as worse than other kind of crime.

            Remember, there’s a difference between leaving your allies to be a neutral, or later on join other coalition, however leaving your allies, AFTER consulting with other coalition to attack your former allies, that’s something that would snap every human being. Trust me, you won’t easily forgive those that you have called friend and suddenly they join your enemies.

            April 15, 2021 at 3:23 PM
          • Dripple Novartis

            I might be bit mistaken, but aren’t we talking about NIP and not an actual co-operation pact?

            April 16, 2021 at 5:34 AM
          • Novartis Dripple

            quite an invalid question in my opinion, you can’t just talk about the NIP WITHOUT the reason why they break the NIP itself, what happens behind the screen prior to TAPI announcing the end of NIP.

            It’s as if you’re saying Boston Tea Party is a bad move without discussing the discontent created by the heavy tax and their inability to get their voice heard by the policy maker.

            April 16, 2021 at 6:55 AM
          • Dripple Novartis

            What I wanted to point out that NIP is quite far from “alliance”
            What comes to reason why they broke the NIP, I think TEST knew there will be a war and had to actively take precautions, that they won’t in same situation as Imperium is now.

            April 16, 2021 at 7:43 AM
          • Novartis Dripple

            uh-huh, then why they ask imperium if they wanna bash PanFam first? Sounds fishy to me

            April 16, 2021 at 7:50 AM
          • Dripple Novartis

            What is so fishy about it? Its clever politics, Legacy as the weakest of 3 big alliances had to ensure, that they will have allies and more importantly they will be fighting a aggressive war.
            In war “casus belli, reason, justification” are last on the checking list.

            April 16, 2021 at 2:03 PM
          • Novartis Dripple

            And the last to be forgiven also, moreover in the case of imperium. You’ve seen what they did to those that betray their trust. Just see what happens to CO2 for reference. It’s not clever politics, but a suicide politics. Goons in the past have had the whole Eve try to stomp them out of existence, and they persist even better than cockroach.

            April 17, 2021 at 6:33 AM
          • Majestic Dripple

            NIP is NIP. But did TEST asked for help from Goons while fighting Frat? Or this kind of help has nothing to do with ‘help’, and TESTs are proud boys, and are strong enough not to call for any BigBrother to clear his own mess?

            April 16, 2021 at 10:02 AM
          • Dripple Majestic

            Yet, its still not a official alliance, granted TEST and Imperium has worked in past, yet it doesn’t mean there is an alliance.

            Neither side is obligated to help each other, if there is “common enemy” or other backroom dealings, its different kind of diplomacy.

            April 16, 2021 at 1:57 PM
          • Romulus Loches Dripple

            So for context the NIP included a mutual defensive pact that stated that if PanFam came and attacked either the Imperium or Legacy, the other would come to their aid. Now, this was set in place back when the Imperium had been kicked out of the north and were just settling into Delve while Legacy was also much smaller and still getting their feet under them. Situations changed, but it’s important to keep that in mind when having this discussion.

            The NIP had some particular language that made it so there were ways to get around it, such as attacking infrastructure in ‘non-home’ regions. The “backstab” is more from the way that TEST used these loopholes leading up to the ending of the NIP. No one was surprised about this war happening.

            If there is one thing that is known about the Imperium is that they don’t break their agreements. Anyone who says otherwise has probably never actually dealt with the Imperium through official channels, only scams or rumors. As such, the Imperium stood there, braced and waited for Legacy to stab them before retaliating.

            You may say that is foolish, but the trustworthiness of the Imperium is what allows them to make deals in the future, while people will be wary of TEST. What is the value of that trust? Well when the Imperium asked its members for aid, they were able to raise over 20 trillion isk solely based on the trust that it would pay it all back.

            April 16, 2021 at 2:55 PM
          • Zaand Dripple

            What makes you think that PanFam isn’t just chilling with its own space secure while Legacy weakens itself fighting AND gets its own space burned down? The only groups that come out of this war ahead are PanFam and WinterCo. Legact(Test) was too myopic to see how stupid their alliance was at the start of this thing. They actually thought they would come out of this war relatively unscathed.

            April 16, 2021 at 2:26 AM
        • Moomin Amatin Dripple

          I did. You ignored them as you did not like them. But hey, you continue to make things up as you go along. It is what makes watching this war so much fun, to see the ever shifting PAPI narrative be defended by people like yourself. Keep posting.

          April 15, 2021 at 8:01 AM
        • Zaand Dripple

          I like how in your world Imperium wanting nothing to do with legacy and its BS war to expand its renting empire and strengthen its own position with nothing for the Imperium to gain is “failed diplomacy”. trust me, if there is one group in this game that has no room to lecture others on “diplomacy” its Test.

          April 16, 2021 at 2:22 AM
          • Dripple Zaand

            If you look current war, I would say it TEST who managed to assemble the largest armada EVE has ever seen.
            While goons are holed in 1DQ, waiting to make their last stand before becoming Mordus Angels.

            April 16, 2021 at 5:37 AM
          • Novartis Dripple

            the big IF is: IF PAPI even have the ball to finally assault 1DQ

            That’s it. You can say all you want about being Mordus Angels, but first, Goons is ready for that, and two, that future still awaits the final plan from PAPI side to really assault 1DQ

            April 19, 2021 at 3:59 PM
    • Zaand Dripple

      “constant demeaning, ignorance and pure dickery”

      This is just hilarious coming from Test

      April 16, 2021 at 2:18 AM
    • Only a band of deliberate imbeciles as thick (and that’s with a -k not two c’s because there’s no redeeming aspect) could fucking start a war of aggression with a 3:1 numerical advantage and then fucking whine all day on the internet about how their foe refuses to die in a way that PAPI finds aesthetically pleasing. If that’s not fucking hubris I don’t know what is. PAPI– and especially TEST– have a colossal entitlement complex.

      Fraternity don’t need to backstab anybody right now: yall are busy enough stabbing yourselves that all they gotta do is sit back and wait to be the last men standing. Yet here we are being lectured about “failed diplomacy and poor strategic decision-making.” OK, spaghetti-brain. Please host your advanced diplomacy and strategic thought TED talk soon so us dumb Goonies can learn how to lead a real alliance.

      April 16, 2021 at 5:01 AM
      • Dripple Ganthrithor

        If you think this is the best possible outcome for Imperium and “we couldn’t do anything different” then yes goons tactical and political decision making-making has been flawless, maybe this is a plot to completely wipe out PAPI forces and win the war, we will see.

        What comes to lecturing about strategic/diplomatic decision-making, I’m just speculating and pointing out the results.
        I’m sure after this war there will be long discussions in Imperium “how did Vily and PGL beat us so badly”

        April 16, 2021 at 5:50 AM
        • Moomin Amatin Dripple

          You know you have to win a war before you can brag about winning a war, else it sounds like hubris. Maybe next year huh?

          April 16, 2021 at 7:00 AM
          • Dripple Moomin Amatin

            and you are absolutely right, war is still undecided.

            April 16, 2021 at 7:40 AM
        • There won’t be a long discussion because it’s totally obvious how they beat us: they rounded up the same coalition of the mega-risk-averse that they routinely round up every few years and blobbed out the sun. There have been few opportunities for Imperium to recruit new allies because everybody in EVE is familiar with how this ritual periodically plays out, and very few people want to sign up to play on the team that’s half the size. Most people think they’re better off siding with allies of convenience or simply sitting things out altogether for the most part, than they would be siding with the Imperium.

          Now, I think it simply depends on how you view the game and what you want out of your EVE experience. Most people in EVE just want to krab (and/or bot), so joining some PAPI-aligned or “neutral” force (basically any group other than the Imperium at this point) clearly makes the most sense, as it allows them to maintain access to relatively risk-free farming opportunities. You don’t need to do a lot of digging to see this borne out: simply go on a filament roam. Literally everywhere you go that is not in the general vicinity of Delve, you see basically the same thing: a wasteland of nearly-empty space, with just a couple of people per system or even none at all with the exception of the occasional Keepstar hub-system, and in-space more or less strictly botting Ishtars or ratting carriers / supers. That’s the majority of EVE right now: a wasteland of Chinese players flying ratting Ishtars 24/7.

          Everyone who actually plays EVE is already committed to this fight on one side or the other. With the exception of a few crazy Russians (and Elitist Ops for a couple of months), nobody really wants to sign up to be content-farmed by PAPI. I don’t know who you’re proposing we should have allied with, unless you’re just suggesting we should’ve taken TEST up on their initial “offer,” but it’s hard for anyone with an ounce of self-respect to countenance putting up with Vily and his idiocy. The major alliances of PAPI are pretty much comprised of people who’ve hated Goons for decades now, so it’s unlikely that any of them could be convinced to change sides “for the good of the game.” What else is there to do but give rousing speeches and do what we can?

          April 16, 2021 at 7:47 PM
  • Eve_Osir1s

    Are we serious? Does PAPI not see the shit they say? This war started with PGL claiming they were going to save the game and save us from the evil brainwashing of the Mittani. Many people called us botters and the great evil causing the death and stagnation of this game for years at this point. Even with the pie chart from CCP people would still call us botters. And you’re upset that PAPI is getting flak for being the Serenity 2.0 coalition. Boo hoo.
    And using the excuse that in case we come back Serenity 2.0 coalition will need to blue donut again to make sure we stay off the map is, in my opinion, nothing more than a ploy for PandaFam to maintain its leadership as the PvP focused krabbing empire. An empire hiding away in space notorious for botting due to its remoteness mind you.

    Detached from reality? In what world have PAPI reduced our fighting strength to compare it to a quadriplegic? Who cares about keepstars when IHUBS and jammers completely cuck them? PAPI’s entire strategy revolves around reducing the space we live in, preventing us from doing anything about it, and NOT disarming. Unless somehow the Imperium loses critical mass of membership, the only thing PAPI has done is killed structures. But at the end of the day, we only need a handful to keep fighting where and when we can.

    In this meta, asiding from staging, structures are meaningless if you’re outnumbered or outgunned since they cannot be reasonably defended. Unless of course you want to pull a papi and attempt to load grid while the hostiles just shoot you.

    April 15, 2021 at 4:13 PM
  • zuz

    that papi guy is insane …goons think they are gods servants in eve lol

    April 18, 2021 at 8:49 PM
  • Elithiel en Gravonere

    I heard Ron Jeremy say for years, Goons are mostly mediocre carebear fairweather children. Any attack on their space will see most of them fleeing. It seems he was as always, wrong on that point once again.

    April 19, 2021 at 9:29 AM