The Disbanding of CO2: A Requiem in Five Acts

Gray Doc 2018-12-13

Art by Redlline XIII

The alliance Circle-Of-Two (CO2) announced on Dec. 2, 2018, that they were disbanding. INN released a brief news hit to mark the news, but I felt the disbanding deserved a longer treatment, because CO2 is one of the reasons, in a roundabout way, I joined EVE. Before I started playing I read about the fight over X-47 and I was amazed at the complexity of the backstories behind that fight and the history that trailed, like a comet tail, in the wake of the ships. I read many more articles about some of EVE’s most important events: the Casino War (World War Bee), the Fountain War, and the almost unbelievable story of The Judge’s action against CO2.

In the mix of many of these stories I kept coming across the name “CO2.”  While there are much larger alliances, and more powerful and older, I’m not sure there has been any alliance more interesting than Circle-of-Two, and almost certainly none that evoke such strong feelings, both positive and negative. So, I bring you a requiem of sorts, told from a lot of different perspectives by people whose EVE experience got tangled up with C02 in one way or another. Note that I don’t intend this piece to be an historical overview or in any way complete. The history of C02 is very complex and would take far too much space to deal with here. Rather, I will include just enough history to provide context for the players’ perspectives I’ve included here.

ACT I

The history of CO2 goes back for many years and cannot be separated from their controversial leader, GigX. I’ll pick the story up when CO2 joined Goonswarm, not that their history starts there, but that their story picks up momentum then. Once in the CFC, as The Imperium was then called, CO2 quickly gained traction, and members, and became one of the more active and aggressive groups in New Eden.

Let’s hear from two people who flew with CO2. The views are so very different that you can quickly get a sense of how polarizing the alliance can be. First, from Arabella Meyer:

Whether or not they acknowledge it, the Eve Online community lost some great people [when CO2 announced it was disbanding],  dedicated to inspiring leadership, content, and integrity. No one has a right to say otherwise if they never flew under the banner of Circle of Two. I’m genuinely sad to see it come to this, and I truly wish Sebastien and GigX nothing but the best in their respective futures. People who allied and coordinated with them want to spin the narrative that they have the right to judge CO2 due to their poor experiences. That is simply the equivalent of crying over a hi-sec gank. Asher and The Mittani felt personally wronged by GigX, so they made it their goal, both in-game and out, to end his legacy and his followers not once, but over and over again. One day, it will come back and bite them in the ass. Despite them taking their narrative to this new level, the efforts and indoctrination will not be able purge the positive influence that CO2 impressed upon this game and its members, as well as countless others with shared distaste for the unethical tactics that targeted them. The name CO2 may be lost for good, but anyone who learned from them will carry their legacy to always take the fight forward. The name will be slandered by weak minded “nobodys” for a long time, but Circle-of-Two will be sorely missed by many others. To anyone in the alliance who can no longer find a reason to play, all I can say to you is fly safe and be well. (Arabella Meyer, Northern Coalition FC and former CO2 member)

Next, we’ll hear from The Judge, who flew with CO2 and worked in leadership roles as well:

When I joined CO2 in 2012 the alliance was a totally different beast [than it is now]. We were living in a single constellation in Tribute and things were great. We were a thousand-person elite PVP alliance, and I loved it. I was a nobody line member until early 2013 when I approached the then head diplomat and asked if there was a way to climb the ladder and become an alliance diplomat. Between doing diplo work and talking to my own contacts within other alliances I started to get a read on who was positive and negative for the alliance. The head diplomat I mentioned earlier was one of the negatives, being someone who at times was even harder to work with and was even more disrespectful to line members than GigX was. Eventually he was kicked [for] lying to gigX and the CO2 leadership team, while at the same time trying to undermine others in CO2’s leadership to get them kicked. That lead to me being installed as the head diplomat for CO2. From there everything was downhill. I’d been handed a diplomatic corps with nearly no diplomats (gigX and the former head diplomat didn’t trust anyone) and an alliance reputation that was irreparable. I decided to stick around for the move to Impass after the Casino War and hoped everything would get better . It didn’t. (The Judge, formerly of CO2, now in KarmaFleet of Goonswarm Allilance)

ACT II

Early rapid growth and a reputation for being an elite PvP group led to CO2 wanting additional space, which in turn caused conflict with CFC leadership. These conflicts grew increasingly toxic, with each side claiming the other side was unreasonable. These tensions culminated about two and a half years ago, in late March of 2016, when CO2 controversially left and reset The Imperium, as they were then rebranded, after the battle for control of the M-OEE8 Infrastructure Hub.

Imperium FC Kendarr reflects on how those events two years ago led to the recent disbanding:

[I] wasted about seven hours of my life trying to defend the M-O iHub with [CO2] for them to bitch quit on us. After we expunged them from Impass and they reformed, had they not become PANFAM pets they would have never fallen into our cross hairs again [and] would likely still be very alive and kicking today. They could have settled anywhere in New Eden. Anywhere away from us and Legacy anyway. They needed like one constellation of space to live. There are so many places in New Eden out of reach or away from people that wanted to hurt them that they would have been fine. (Kendarr, of Zebra Corp, Goonswarm Alliance)

ACT III

The next dramatic event followed fairly quickly after the reset with The Imperium. CO2 worked with Test Alliance Please Ignore (TEST) for a time and participated in the Sarenen fights against The Imperium. Other fights ensued, mostly against PanFam groups.

Trouble seemed to follow CO2. By August, 2017, CO2 was feuding with their ally TEST. The logs released on EN24 show a diplomatic nightmare blowing up for all New Eden to see.

The Judge, who was still in CO2 at that time, speaks about this time period:

After a number of months work making backroom deals [with] our enemies and working with our allies to secure some rental space we started to see substantial ISK growth for the alliance coffers, and that is when my relationship with gigX started to fall apart. gigX has always been really good at spending every cent the alliance has as soon as it comes into the wallet. Once I’d secured the first months rent and the ISK started to roll in gigX got greedy. He wanted all the ISK transferred from the rental alliance as soon as the month’s rent was paid (which I would drip feed to make it last) but most of all he wanted more rental space and more ISK. This led to a lot of strain between CO2 and TEST. In the next couple of months gigX made diplomatic blunders left and right, culminating in a secret meeting between the rest of the alliances that were part of Legacy right as I was travelling from Australia to Iceland for a CSM summit. Over the next few days everything fell apart as it leaked that the other Legacy members voted to remove CO2 from the coalition and while I was trying to represent the player base at CCP’s offices, gigX was more concerned with throwing gasoline on the fire, burning bridges and pointing fingers.

ACT IV

Then came what has come to be known as Judgment Day. Much has been written about that event so the recap can be quick. The Judge flipped on CO2, took over 1.5 trillion ISK and gave a Keepstar to The Imperium, CO2’s most hated rival. GigX then asked for The Judge’s personal information and made threats against him in real life. When the dust settled, gigX was banned by CCP for life and The Judge, ironically in control of CO2, disbanded CO2 the first time.

Several players mentioned this event when speaking of the recent announcement concerning the disbanding. First, Killah Bee:

To me CO2 was dead when gigx got banned. They were a good group for the game at the time but the second reincarnation was nowhere near CO2’s prime. Sometimes dead things are better left dead. (Killah Bee, of Shiva corp in NCdot alliance)

From Progodlegend:

I’m just surprised they got back together after the disband. It was like a relapse. Well the disband of CO2 by TheJudge. GigX should have never been banned or perma-banned at least. But I’m surprised all of those corps would decide to rejoin CO2 after it reformed. (Progodlegend, of Moosearmy, in TEST Alliance)

ACT V

After the first disbanding, CO2 remarkably recovered. Still, to this day, after the second disbanding, EveWho shows CO2 having 1355 members (as of Dec. 7, 2018). The group shows resilience and loyalty among its core members. Given the rebirth after the first disband, we may ponder if this most recent disbanding represents the final end for CO2.

The Judge, for one, is not so sure:

The thing to understand is that the people at the top of CO2’s leadership, including gigX, have their identities and lives so wrapped up in being leaders of the CO2 cult that I don’t think they can ever fully let go. I’m sure in the not so distant future they’ll try to reform CO2 under the same or a different name in hopes that people will forget how they’ve treated people and the bridges they’ve burnt. I hope they keep in mind the CO2 mantra… “we do not forgive, we do not forget,” because EVE will never forget and if they do ever return they’ll never have a place in EVE to call home.

Jurius Doctor also considers the possibility that CO2 might just be rebranding itself:

It is very much how gigX phrased it in their announcement about shutting their doors. It is a matter of having a name which has become well-known enough to make them a target. It’s become a bad brand by extension of their leader’s shenanigans, ban-skirting, diplomacy, poor internal culture, and simply being a dog big enough to kick, as it were. Now, this is not to say there aren’t some really great people in CO2, or that there aren’t excellent FCs, or that gigX wasn’t at times a capable leader. However, they have suffered from a lot of problems which are in common with other organizations suffering failure cascade, which include developing a bad brand, being known for a detached or uncaring leadership who are unreasonable or unwilling to take criticism or accept new direction until a pivot is too late, and internal stakeholders who have become so disenfranchised or jaded that they’re willing to burn the house down just to see the flames. The Judge leaving wasn’t just Imperium having good side chats over CSM meetings, it was created by gigX’s leadership, or lack thereof. At the end of the day, Circle of Two is doing what any corporation attempts to do in the real world when their name has become preceded by a reputation or a singularly bad bit of PR—they’re trying to escape it by changing name, changing location, drawing back into themselves, and attempting to pivot. However, that pivot cannot happen with any cult of personality inside of CO2. The leadership and the membership both need to wake to that reality and either reform under someone else, or walk away from the burning building.

If the second disbanding sticks, we have seen the end of an era for EVE Online. The alliance has been intensely drama-filled and has provided a lot of content in New Eden. No history ever written about EVE can fail to place CO2 as a key ingredient in the odd mix that is this game. And so I end this requiem while I continue to wonder . . . Is this really the end for CO2?

UPDATE: As of December 8, 2018, Pandemic Horde Alliance is showing CO2 as one of their participating corporations.

Thanks to the many people who took time to reply to my requests for comment and also to Dirk Stetille and Moomin Amatin who provided me some helpful background information.

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Comments

  • Moomin Amatin

    I cannot help but hope that the corporation of Co2 is just a ruse for Gigx to get back into the game. This is because then PH leadership can experience first hand what the Co2 leadership is really like and deal with the issues that come from it.

    For me the issues “suffered” by Gigx have always related to his special style of leadership. Every problem faced by Co2 was of their own making. The constant attempts to blame anyone but themselves for their issues is well recorded.

    I especially love that the Co2 corporation has been accepted into PH with that branding. It makes following targets of interest all the simpler.

    December 13, 2018 at 8:29 am
    • Deni'z von Meanace Moomin Amatin

      Can’t understand the sticky narrative about gigx’s leadership style. Hell look at Trump and many others leaders with different style of managing their followers. If one person don’t like other person doesn’t mean need to kill the leader and all his followrs. Otherwise its way to personal for the sandbox.

      December 13, 2018 at 9:30 am
      • Moomin Amatin Deni'z von Meanace

        Where were you when The Casino War started? Because a huge part of that was if you were a goon following Mittens then you were a sub-human.

        Anyhoo, you did actually read the leaked diplo logs from the interaction between Test and Co2? Because that should tell you all you need to know. But if that were not enough then you need only look at how Gigx has handled his ban. If it were not for the continued ban evasions and harsh words aimed at CCP then I am pretty sure that he would have been let back into the game. Again the only person responsible there was Gigx himself.

        Also does it get more personal than trying to get the real life address of someone in order to seek out of game justice? Because there again that is what Gigx did. But of course that was again the fault of someone else and nothing to do with Gigx. Gigx will only be able to reform once he is able to accept responsibility for his own actions and to stop blaming others for the woes he has supposedly suffered.

        So as I mentioned, I hope that he continues to ban evade and that PH get to experience his special form of leadership first hand. It only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch and PH just invited more than one in.

        December 13, 2018 at 12:33 pm
        • Deni'z von Meanace Moomin Amatin

          Imperium called that Casino War, opposite side called that World War Bee and that 50/50 correct for both sides. And no need to be a smarter than you are referring to logs, shall you massage your memory about logs when SMA started all that mess. So Imp and others called CO2 betrayals but in the mean time Judge took exactly same action and was accepted with warm hugs.

          December 14, 2018 at 3:25 am
          • Moomin Amatin Deni'z von Meanace

            I asked you some questions and in the true fashion of someone in denial you just talk about something else.

            The Judge put in a lot of effort to getting a good path for Co2 with their allies Test. If you bothered to look you will see how Gigx treated that effort and the respect he gave his allies. Meanwhile Gigx is doing the bidding of PanFam yet again with Tri.

            How about you answer my questions so that this can go somewhere more meaningful?

            December 14, 2018 at 9:02 am
  • Guilford Australis

    A few observations that I think can be detached from anyone’s personal feelings (whether positive or negative) about Circle of Two:

    – Every defense of Co2 from current or former line members basically distills into some variation of this: “Although we acknowledge that all historical evidence points to Co2 being unreliable, duplicitous, unfaithful in diplomatic agreements, incompetent in its executive leadership, and generally incapable of adapting to the changes the past several years have brought to EVE Online, you should ignore all of that evidence and take our word for it that Co2 is one of the best things that ever happened to EVE.” Arabella Meyer’s quote is a perfect example of this self-defeating logic.

    – Co2 did not have to disband. Co2 is disbanding because GigX refuses to let go. I suspect plenty of alliances and even some coalitions would have been willing to accept a true reboot of Co2 minus GigX (who is permanently banned and has no place in EVE now, period). This isn’t The Imperium’s fault for pursuing Co2 in retaliation for historical wrongs. This isn’t The Judge’s fault. It is GigX’s fault.

    – Related to the previous point, rebranding will always fail if the primary goal is to change perception without changing substance. This is true of real-life corporations and it is true of organizations in EVE. Co2 can collapse into Pandemic Horde if it wants, but the consequences of its past failures will continue to follow it until GigX learns to accept his ban and the Co2 community (in whatever form it takes) chooses to follow a different direction. Goonswarm spent the past two years rebuilding its internal culture and, yes, rebranding following the Casino War. It can be done, but it has to come from a sincere commitment to a change of substance and direction.

    December 13, 2018 at 2:20 pm
    • Arabella Meyer Guilford Australis

      Your first point, or observation as you call it, is inherently flawed and is attached directly to your own negative personal feelings on Co2. The Judge is a former member and every quote of his screams the opposite of what you imply. Many others formerly under the co2 banner agree with him on some points even, further ridiculing your argument.

      You’ll have to take note that nothing in my statement justifies anything co2 did wrong or poorly in the past. That’s the one thing you got right. But everyone seems to believe that everything they have done that wronged them or contributed to their downfall is further evidence that they deserved to be stricken from the game. That’s simply wrong, everything they ever did as a whole was simply the way this game was played. The reason they disbanded was plain and simply due to Gigx’s ban, which to with Progodlegend’s quote, I agree; he did not deserve a permaban. Go back and listen to the TIS twitch stream where it occurred live. Almost no one who took part in that discussion believed it was the level of punishment deserved.

      Also side note: in the same stream, someone who was in comms when co2 backstabbed CFC stated that when asher heard of it, he demanded that Sebastian confirm or deny it. Frequently Asher spins a different version of the story, saying that Sebastian entered comms afterwards in tears to deliver the message because GigX didn’t have the guts as a leader to tell him himself. The reality is Seb happened to be the one member of leadership already in comms, and Asher didn’t even give GigX the chance. This doesn’t excuse anything, but it’s just another example of how people let their hate spin them to a new level, where they’re willing to go incredible lengths to change someone’s image.

      My position is known, and people can criticize and ridicule me all they want, but the core message behind my quote in this article is simply that many people will be missed by the community due to this disbanding, and I’m not saying GigX. While I respect him a great deal, I wouldn’t put him even in the top 10 people I made friendships with who will undoubtedly unsub and not return. That’s all I have to say on the matter.

      December 13, 2018 at 5:10 pm
      • Guilford Australis Arabella Meyer

        Not to argue semantics, but I said every “defense” of Co2 circles back to the logic I described, not that every statement about Co2 follows that pattern. Certainly The Judge and those you describe who agree with his negative outlook on Co2 are not attempting to defend the alliance. I think you’ve validated my observation somewhat by acknowledging, again, that any defense of Co2’s legacy will have to come to terms with the alliance’s checkered history.

        I don’t have negative personal feelings about Co2. I wasn’t in Goonswarm/CFC during the Casino war. I shot plenty of Co2 line members during this year’s northern campaign, and they probably shot me a few times, and that is the extent of my personal investment in this story. My conclusion that Co2 was unreliable and leaves a largely negative legacy stems from the historical record, not from anything that happened to me personally or from the ancestral folk tales my alliance intones ’round the ol’ campfire after a few mugs of moonshine.

        It seems to me we agree on more than you think. I agree GigX’s punishment was grossly excessive and should have been reduced; I’m on the record with that elsewhere on INN. I agree that everyone loves to hate Co2 and some narratives may not align with actual events. I certainly agree the line members shouldn’t be pursued endlessly over their alliance’s past mistakes, and I don’t know of any Goons who truly seem to believe that, either.

        December 13, 2018 at 6:02 pm
      • Moomin Amatin Arabella Meyer

        Do you have any real evidence of people un-subbing and never returning? Because I have been around for a while and heard that argument a lot but not once seen any real evidence of it. Co2 was disbanded after Judgement Day and then popped right back up again once Co2 was reformed. Was it just a few hundred people? No it was not and even the most casual of checks on Dotlan show this. When Co2 disbanded the first time the former members just went somewhere else in the main. This will and has happened again.

        I also have to ask were you a participant of The Casino War? Were you a member of the CFC? Because on face value of your name you were not. In fact your history with Co2 seems to be at most a few months, most of which Co2 was homeless for. So for you to make statements about what happened when you were seemingly not about means that you are accepting a version of events. If you want to prove me wrong on this then go for it and I look forward to it.

        Eve is an odd game. The story lines can be most interesting at times. For instance the issues between Test and Co2 only came about due to Tri wanting to take apart the DRF. It was later shown that PanFam had a real interest in Tri doing what they did so that they could pick up rental space. With Co2 supporting Tri against the wishes of their allies they were furthering the PanFam agenda. Remember the only reason Co2 even went south with Test was due to being evicted by PanFam from the north. Again this was to offer greater security for rental schemes that PanFam gained from. Co2 only left the CFC as Gigx thought his way was the best way. The way Gigx conducted himself with Dran is but one example of his normal behaviour. Many other groups came to learn what it was like to deal with Gigx and the only time you will hear good things is when it is to push a false narrative. Yet here you are a proud NCDot member trying to tell others how wronged Co2 were.

        December 13, 2018 at 9:50 pm
      • Arrendis Arabella Meyer

        The reason they disbanded was plain and simply due to Gigx’s ban, which to with Progodlegend’s quote, I agree; he did not deserve a permaban. Go back and listen to the TIS twitch stream where it occurred live. Almost no one who took part in that discussion believed it was the level of punishment deserved.

        The initial offense almost certainly didn’t require a permaban. But CCP didn’t have the time to consider carefully just how much of a ban to hand out. He’d done it publicly. It was all over twitter, reddit, and the EVE forums moments after it happened, with screenshots. Not acting quickly would’ve been a whole lot of very bad press, all across the internet, right at the time when their venture capitalists were looking to start shopping the company around.

        So they came down heavy. They could always lighten it, after all. Give him 2 weeks and then announce they’d reconsidered, they were gonna make it 60 days or something. But he didn’t let them. He went to war with them, almost immediately.

        And that’s where he earned the ban: by not letting them decide to be lenient. And every time he tries to get around the ban, as he is still doing today, he makes it less possible for them to decide ‘ok, he’s learned his lesson, we can back off now’.

        If he’d knock off the bullshit, he’d be back in 6 months. A year, tops. Because CCP don’t like banning people for being dumbasses. But he doesn’t learn, and he can’t admit fault, even now.

        December 16, 2018 at 3:19 am
  • Arrendis

    The reality of the situation is both a simple one, and a complicated one.

    CO2 has disbanded because GigX ran the alliance as a cult of personality. During their CFC tenure, there were maybe 3 people he trusted to lead alliance fleets, as far as we could ever see—including himself. That emphasis on his presence at the center of everything made for a built-in weakness in the Alliance. It’s the same weakness Black Legion (or is it …Black…Legion… yet?) shows: Every time Superman’s not there, things fall apart. Without GigX, there is no CO2, because GigX made CO2 all about him, whether he meant to or not.

    Should GigX have been permabanned? That’s where the complexity and real failure-cascade comes in.

    This was not the first time GigX has made RL threats against someone. It is, however, the first time CCP’s had undeniable proof, out in front of the entire playerbase, that it happened. There was no way they couldn’t respond in some manner. And when it comes to bad things, it’s a lot easier to impose a harsh punishment and then lighten it later than to be too permissive out of the gate.

    The light initial sentence sends a ‘you can get away with it’ message, where lightening a heavy one presents the initial deterrent, then the image of mercy for the contrite. And had Gigx been contrite, if he’d displayed remorse, I fully expect he’d have seen things play out differently.

    But he didn’t. Instead, he published communications from GMs (a TOS violation in and of itself at the time), publicly antagonized CCP and challenged their right to discipline him, and then went and evaded the initial ban.

    Each one of those moves compounded the issue. Each one of those moves, in effect, forces CCP’s hand. If doing those things got him what he wanted, CCP would see every player using that playbook when they were disciplined. Their ability to contain and curb behavior detrimental to the game would be irreparably harmed. He painted himself into a corner with his post-punishment behavior, and no matter how much people want to put the blame on others… nobody forced him to do any of that.

    This kind of projection and insistence that everything is someone else’s fault isn’t new for CO2, or GigX. When they flipped on us at the end of the 5-hour fight for the M-OEEB IHUB, GigX, DaWinci, and The Judge released a statement claiming we hadn’t helped them defend their sov. That we’d expected them to meatshield for us while not assisting them in protecting their space. Many of their pilots, and pilots on the MBC side of that war, continue to parrot that nonsense today.

    The day after I penned a piece on TMC about the betrayal, Sebastien Saintfrusquin, who is without a doubt one of the nicest and most honest people I have ever encountered in EVE, went to EN24 to rebut me. He admitted to some mistakes being made, took me to task over two points where our direct experience conflicted[1]. He also, importantly, said this:

    I have heard that people in CO2 blame the CFC for not making a good show to defend our sov. They are wrong.

    He said that not 24h after the post from the rest of leadership blaming their change of sides on exactly that. So with that in mind, I tend to take any protestations from CO2 that GigX’s behavior is anyone else‘s fault with a grain of salt the size of Gibraltar.

    It could have been avoided. It should have been avoided. But GigX’s downfall has always been his pride. He simply could not back down when told he was in the wrong. And that cost him.

    1. I still believe that the JB wasn’t where it should have been, but Asher did the fleet warp, not me, so I could be wrong. Maybe Asher screwed up. Maybe the corp bookmarks were off because someone was trying to get ahead of the change in JB locations he mentioned. In the end, I can’t be sure, and Seb’s one of those guys I still trust enough to doubt my own experience over. Even though we haven’t spoke at all since that day. Whatever he’s up to, I hope he’s doing well.

    December 13, 2018 at 3:44 pm
  • Moomin Amatin

    Should we ask The Judge about this? 😉

    December 13, 2018 at 8:35 pm
  • Moomin Amatin

    So you are saying that The Judge was not a diplo and not able to make any decisions? Because as he had rights to change ownership of alliance assets it certainly looked like he has leadership responsibilities.

    Also who made The Judge a diplo and for them to have roles? Was it Gigx perhaps? So who are you and Gigx gonig to blame for that?

    December 14, 2018 at 9:04 am
  • Tyrone Cashmoney

    I would have respected C02 a lot more if they had just announced they were leaving the CFC BEFORE we spent hours trying to defend that goddamned ihub. But no, they just had to announce it right after it was lost, and then tried to rewrite history. What a load of bullshit.

    December 15, 2018 at 12:11 am
    • Moomin Amatin Tyrone Cashmoney

      There is more to it all than that. When Co2 had moved south, after being evicted by PanFam from the north, Gigx held a SOTA. I think it was the one where he declared war on The Imperium. Anyhoo, there was a member in that SOTA who said something along the lines of “you were right Gigx we should have left them in the summer”. This was in reference to leaving The Imperium in the summer of 2015. Gigx knew he was on the way out well before the battle of M-O. To add to that Gigx had tried to tempt other alliances to come along with him. All the time Gigx refused to come and join the rest of The Imperium in Saranen, because he always knew best. Well it turns out that The Imperium did just fine in the end, Co2 less so. A fitting end that Co2 have been widotted into PanFam.

      December 15, 2018 at 12:29 am
  • Moomin Amatin

    I am not entirely convinced that you are making your case any stronger. You see Gigx was the one who gave The Judge that power. The Judge held that power for quite a lot of time. That would seem to be a vote of confidence by Gigx for The Judge. Again this just comes back to Gigx’s seeming inability to accept responsibility for his own actions.

    December 15, 2018 at 2:55 pm
  • Seraph IX Basarab

    uwu what’s this

    [3/27/2016 8:55:17 PM] The Judge: That wouldn’t be an issue. I suppose my question is “how much”
    [3/27/2016 8:56:22 PM] Seraph Basarab: How about just a flat 400 bil total. That covers 3 titans and then some. Of course you also gain all of TNT’s space and moons which from what da_winci said you guys would enjoy taking anyway.
    [3/27/2016 8:56:33 PM] Seraph Basarab: And we could do 100 bil every 2 weeks for the isk.
    [3/27/2016 8:57:07 PM] Seraph Basarab: To be honest you’ll probably end up with more space than you will want as not everyone involved in the war will want to keep space long term anyway.
    [3/27/2016 8:58:26 PM] The Judge: Seems low for what we bring to the table, at least in my eyes
    [3/27/2016 8:58:36 PM] Seraph Basarab: What would you suggest then
    [3/27/2016 9:02:18 PM] The Judge: From what I hear, the deal with TISHU was quite a bit more generous
    [3/27/2016 9:04:26 PM] The Judge: Given we can form an entire fleet alone, and would be providing a perfectly positioned staging point and even as far as super/titan support (should PL play nice) I would hope that would be properly valued
    [3/27/2016 9:05:17 PM] Seraph Basarab: Would the same deal as TISHU got work then?
    [3/27/2016 9:05:32 PM] The Judge: Give me numbers ?
    [3/27/2016 9:19:31 PM] Seraph Basarab: Well how about 600 bil total then?
    [3/27/2016 9:19:53 PM] Seraph Basarab: More than covers the titans and anything lost, it’s a good size chunk of money. You of course get all of TNT’s assets/moons as well.
    [3/27/2016 9:22:31 PM] The Judge: I will skip the “1tril” and the following “meet half way” and go straight to the bottom line of 200bil a fortnight for a total of 800bil.
    [3/27/2016 9:22:48 PM] The Judge: With the rest of the terms we have both stated already
    [3/27/2016 9:25:51 PM] The Judge: With a bit of a cherry on top, I can 95% feed you a bastion supercap/cap movement fleet
    [3/27/2016 9:25:56 PM] The Judge: Because why not
    [3/27/2016 9:27:26 PM] Seraph Basarab: Alright so total agreement is as follows: Co2 gets standings with “Voltron” and rights to all of Tribute and assets there in. Along with that Co2 get 800 bil paid bi-weekly at 100 per payment starting with Co2’s defection from the CFC being announced. Co2 will help “Voltron” fight the CFC in fleets and any other way possible. Leaving anything out?
    [3/27/2016 9:29:37 PM] The Judge: 800bil paid in fortnightly instalments of 200bil. 2 months is a lot more reasonable than 4 months ?
    [3/28/2016 8:13:25 PM] The Judge: Just saying
    [3/28/2016 8:13:38 PM] The Judge: Being a successful spy master means most people will never know your part
    [3/28/2016 8:13:47 PM] The Judge: I would suggest you keep it that way for your own sake ?

    December 16, 2018 at 12:49 am
    • Moomin Amatin Seraph IX Basarab

      Because Da Winci is so totally honest yes? Because just recently Da Winci also said some other things which were backed up by the permanently banned Gigx. These have since been shown to be far removed from the truth.

      Even in your own logs you show the deceit of Co2 as a whole. Da Winci making claims about Co2 being happy to take space from their then allies of TNT. But hey, the backstab by Co2 of their allies during the Casino War never happened. At least not according to the many words you have written on it all. So that kind of makes you look less than honest as well.

      There was never anything wrong with scamming back then. Huge amounts of dirty RMT casino money was being thrown about. So why would The Judge not try to get some of that sweet ISK for himself?

      Anyhoo thank you for a great piece of evidence that shows you to be a deceitful liar, as if that was ever in doubt, and also the very low moral fibre of Co2 and the stupidity of Gigx.

      I look forward to you deleting or editing your comment as you normally do. At least on INN you will not be able to delete or modify my comment unlike lesser so called Eve news sites I could mention.

      December 16, 2018 at 7:18 am
      • Seraph IX Basarab Moomin Amatin

        1. Why would Da Winci send Judge to ask me for money? DW specified he didn’t want money from me. Judge tried to get money from me instead.

        2. TNT had accepted a corp that was black listed from Co2 for shittery. As per the CFC rules at the time if you’re black listed from one, you’re black listed from all. TNT didn’t give a fuck about that and took them in anyway. The talk of hitting TNT was reserved for after Co2 left the Imperium. And no it’s not a “backstab” if YOU GUYS left the war front.

        3. No one is having an issue with scamming. I’m simply pointing out how money grubbing and underhanded Judge is. None of the ISK being paid by casinos was “RMT money.” Casinos make money. They don’t need to use cash to buy ISK. So none of the ISK they paid out was bought. If you have any evidence that MBC alliances bought ISK from the casinos you’re free to present the evidence.

        4. Yes me showing Judge trying to weasel isk while offering to “get us” a Bastion supercap fleet really shows how dishonest I am.

        5. I’ve never deleted any argument or edit out any parts. Ask your moderators what they do with my posts. Unlike you I don’t cry and hide and whine:

        Curt – Today at 10:05
        Hey, how’s things?
        Moomin Amatin – Today at 16:04
        Let’s not pretend here – you have no interest in my welfare – so what do you want?
        Curt – Today at 16:04
        Nothing in particular?
        idk, I just figured I should say hi. Haven’t seen you around much.
        Moomin Amatin – Today at 16:06
        again please do not pretend you have any morals here – you are still happy to associate yourself with those that make real life attacks on people
        Curt – Today at 16:06
        You get doxxed or something?
        Moomin Amatin – Today at 16:07
        err do you remember the article that was published on en24 – the one that was then removed – a supposed apology made – then the article was put up again?
        oh and the author was also sacked – but then re-hired once people thought it was forgotten
        I have not forgotten though
        Curt – Today at 16:09
        You considered that article a “real-life attack”?
        Moomin Amatin – Today at 16:09
        yes
        Curt – Today at 16:09
        idk dude
        Definitely seemed more like an insult
        personal attack is a bit much
        Moomin Amatin – Today at 16:10
        well it is not up to you to know is it – it is up to me as to how I decide to take it
        I was called a racist, autistic homophobe
        Curt – Today at 16:11
        well tbf, you did use some choice expressions
        Moomin Amatin – Today at 16:11
        so you are fine with what was written then?
        Curt – Today at 16:11
        The logs weren’t appropriate for an EN24 article
        Which is why we removed them
        Moomin Amatin – Today at 16:12
        and they got put up again
        and let us be honest here – once stuff is published on the net it does not go away easily
        Curt – Today at 16:14
        No, we took the logs out
        Moomin Amatin – Today at 16:14
        again you are ignoring the facts of how the internet works
        Curt – Today at 16:15
        lol
        it’s not like you’re applying for a job interview as “Moomin Amatin”
        Moomin Amatin – Today at 16:16
        you realise that you are making things worse now for me?
        Curt – Today at 16:16
        Now?
        Moomin Amatin – Today at 16:17
        http://evenews24.com/2017/08/16/a-clear-distinction-reupload/
        Eve News24
        Seraph IX Basarab
        A Clear Distinction (Reupload)

        http://evenews24.com/2017/08/24/official-statement-of-apology-by-eve-news-24/
        Eve News24
        Johann Landier
        Official Statement of Apology by Eve News 24

        http://evenews24.com/2017/08/25/en24-official-statement-on-seraph-ix-basarab/
        Eve News24
        Johann Landier
        EN24 Official Statement on Seraph IX Basarab

        Curt – Today at 16:18
        How am I making things worse for you now?
        Moomin Amatin – Today at 16:18
        by pretending that no harm to me was done – this was not done to you – you do not have the right to tell me how I should feel – it is insulting at least
        will you be spending your weekend telling rape victims that they should have enjoyed themselves?
        Curt – Today at 16:19
        I’m so confused
        Moomin Amatin – Today at 16:20
        business as usual then – anyhoo go and do the bdding of your masters elsewhere – to me you are the worst sort of scum
        Curt – Today at 16:20
        Also, did you jsut compare yourself to a rape victim because an internet stranger insulted you?
        Moomin Amatin – Today at 16:20
        again – go away and never contact me again – just as I told you not to before
        Curt – Today at 16:21
        wew lad
        Way to say hi back
        Moomin Amatin – Today at 16:21
        you have no interest in my welfare – this conversation proves it as well
        Curt – Today at 16:22
        What exactly would you like me to do to make things okay?
        Moomin Amatin – Today at 16:24
        someone with common decency and a small amount of intelligence and empathy would not need to ask that question – so I suggest you go and improve on those qualities to work things out for yourself
        Curt – Today at 16:25
        Say sorry? We did that. Remove the offending logs? Done.
        Moomin Amatin – Today at 16:26
        nonsense on all counts
        Curt – Today at 16:26
        Me, or the points you’re trying to make?
        Moomin Amatin – Today at 16:27
        you
        and now you are tyring to insult me further – so go away please and never contact me again (unless you have some sort of moral epiphany)
        Curt – Today at 16:28
        vOv

        December 16, 2018 at 7:59 am
        • Moomin Amatin Seraph IX Basarab

          Here we go again with your special kind of revisionist take on things in order to make yourself seem more important than you actually are. But with so much time having passed and your propensity to talk nonsense your arguments become easier and easier to deal with. So let’s do this.

          1. By your own words there was no head diplo position in Co2 at that time. So how would Da Winci even have the authority to send anyone anywhere to talk about anything diplo related?

          2. It seems that the corp that joined TNT had good reason to leave Co2. Surely a corp should be free to leave if they so desire without being punished by a petulant “man-child” leader? The fact that Co2 had black listed anyone for simply going against the will of Gigx is a reflection on Gigx and Co2 more than anything else. Also if the corp is who I think you are referring to they have proved to be a valuable asset to TNT and remain there to this day.

          3. If none of the money was “dirty” then why was Killah Bee stating that he had lost in the region of a trillion ISK to the hands of CCP? Are you saying that Killah is a liar here? Killah was not even the only one as there were many people who had CCP claw back ISK. Lenny admitted to RMTing as well, hence his permanent ban. Speaking of bans there were a host of other bans re-instated, you know the ones a high level exec at CCP over turned because the publicity from The Casino War was good for their business. It would seem that The Judge had an opportunity to get hold of some of that sweet ISK from then hostiles and tried to do so. Such is Eve.

          4. Your honesty is in question from years of you “attacking the strongest narrative”. Another name for “the strongest narrative” can be called the truth. A concept that seems alien to you. Anyone reading your stuff over the years knows only too well that you are a self serving liar of the highest order. A trait that has led you to being kicked from many places.

          5. I was talking about the comments on your own “news” site. Remember that time when you pulled a guys email address and IP in order to throw shade at them and then deleted the evidence? Some people saw that and kept logs. But somehow you then go on to try and prove your point by linking part of a private conversation between me and your then lackey Curt. Way to keep it classy as ever.

          December 16, 2018 at 9:40 am
          • Seraph IX Basarab Moomin Amatin

            1. There was no head diplo position after Da Winci left and I joined Co2. I know reading isn’t your strong suit but please make a tiny bit of effort.

            2. Yes licking boot is a “valuable asset” i’m sure. They shot blues, they got the boot.

            3. I’m not questioning RMT happening at all. It happens among all the major alliances. What I am saying is that the money transferred from from casinos to MBC was not “bought/dirty” because they wouldn’t be the ones buying isk. They would be selling it. Dunno about KB. Maybe he bought some ISK. But casinos had no reason to buy ISK since they made it. Only sell it. Again the point about Judge is to show how sleazy he is.

            4. Where have I been kicked from for lying? I’ll actually hold you on this one to explain it. Please list all the places I’ve been kicked from for lying. This should be good.

            5. I never pulled and posted anyone’s IP. Please post the logs you lying shiite. I looked at his posting profile which listed his e-mail. This e-mail had the name of an Eve character. I posted his killboard of that character. Stop trying to pretend like this was doxxing. And I never deleted anything regarding that. Do you ever stop lying?

            I couldn’t care less about Curt.He’s shared plenty of private convos. But it shows just how delusional and crazy you are comparing yourself to real life victims because someone laughed at you over a video game. In love with your own victim-hood.

            December 16, 2018 at 10:46 am
          • Moomin Amatin Seraph IX Basarab

            1. What Da Winci was or is has no bearing on The Judge making a play for ISK through a scam. There is nothing to suggest that The Judge was acting on the orders of anyone. Who cares? Scamming is Eve is a long standing tradition. To start bickering about “details” that are not even relevant is just one of your typical ploys of distraction.

            2. Shooting blues is a fundamental part of goon culture. With this in mind Wibla has quite the reputation for shooting blues and is well justified in doing so. But again you dodge the “tricky” questions and simply skip to distraction. Same old pony, same old trick.

            3. Some Casinos were heavily involved with RMT. You see if you have a mechanism for creating vast amounts of unassailable wealth there is the possibility that RMTing said wealth is at least tempting. Lenny admitted this on Reddit after his perma-ban. But now you throw suspicion at Killah Bee for losing assets as he RMT’d. Classy.

            4. You were kicked from EN24 for the lies and personal attacks. To be honest that is the only one I should need to mention. How on earth you came to be the so called EIC of EN24 is simply dumbfounding.

            5. What a wonderful wordsmith you are. You deny the part about IPs yet then go on to admit using an email address. If you cannot see how that is bad then I feel that there is little help for you.

            As for Curt. Now Curt left EN24 as they were unhappy with the way it was being run and helped setup NER. Interesting that you now reveal that you care not for Curt and are more than willing to use private conversations for your own interests. If anyone takes anything from these comments it should be that if people have any conversation with you or Curt then they should expect those conversations to be used against them at some point. Classy as ever.

            December 16, 2018 at 11:46 am
          • Seraph IX Basarab Moomin Amatin

            1. lol YOU brought this up quipping about head diplomat vs diplomat or whatever nonsense you were talking about. Suddenly when you are shown to be wrong you don’t want to talk about it. That’s fine. This is dumb anyway. Funny that your “anything goes” attitude seems to stop at Co2 “Betraying” you. Suddenly it’s an ethical question you have to post about incessantly.

            2. Your question was calling Gigx a manchild and corps being allowed to leave. Sorry but no you don’t get to shoot people in your own alliance and them having to be okay with it. What kind of idiotic statement is this?

            3. You’re the one accessing people of RMTing and fear mongering about “dark money.” What are you even talking about? All I said was that it makes no sense for casinos to buy ISK to give it to MBC when they make the ISK themselves. It’s not difficult to understand.

            4. I didn’t get “kicked for lying.” I got removed by Johann because someone got their little feefees hurt. Literally like a month later I was back and nobody cared. Nobody but you who likened themselves to a rape victim lmao. Again none of it had to do with me lying. So I suppose that makes you a liar.

            5. Of course I deny IPs. I don’t have access to IPs. And again you claimed I posted an IP and you had chatlogs of it. So let’s see the chatlogs or else you’re a liar again. And yes I posted his killboard because I saw the e mail he used with his character name. This isn’t doxxing. Stop pearl clutching.

            I don’t care about Curt. I don’t know why you keep bringing him up. He leaks convos, I leak convos. The world keeps turning. Why are you always so whiny?

            December 16, 2018 at 12:07 pm
          • Moomin Amatin Seraph IX Basarab

            1. You said “Why would Da Winci send Judge to ask me for money?”, So you brought this up and I am simply reasoning that there is no way that The Judge would need permission to try and get some free ISK from dirty Casino money. Nice try on deflection, yet again.

            2. Since when have you been in charge of how The Imperium runs? I get that you are very interested in making yourself seem important but this is simply not the case. If goons want to shoot blues then goons get to shoot blues. By your own admission you were not even in Co2 at the time of this supposed incident. Meanwhile Co2 were striking deals with hostiles to save their money moons.

            3. I do not have to accuse anyone of anything when they have stated as much in their own words with no manipulation on my part.

            4. So you stand by all the personal attacks that you have made regarding me?

            5. Again complete admission with the email bit. My previous point stands.

            Pretty sure that you mentioned Curt first by linking a load of logs. Stay classy.

            December 16, 2018 at 12:32 pm
          • Seraph IX Basarab Moomin Amatin

            1. Yes I brought up how Judge tried to pretend he had some kind of authority to ask for money as part of Co2’s defection when he did not. I’m explaining to you how in his position as a diplomat, he went over the head of the head diplo/Co2 leadership trying to renegotiate the agreement so he could get money. There’s no deflection. I’m literally talking exactly what I’ve been talking about the entire time.

            2. You’re literally Ingsoc tier. Unbelievable how you believe your own nonsense. I never said I was in charge of Goons. Nor was Co2 in Goons. Nor was the corp in question. Not everything is Goons Moomin. The bottom line is a corp in Co2 had caused trouble in Co2. Co2 then kicked the corp and black listed them coalition wide. Not the first time this had happened in the CFC. TNT ignored that and Goons refused to enforce their own coalition blacklist. It’s that simple.

            3. One more time for you. In order for ISK to be “dirty” it has to be bought and sold. The only way money from casinos going to MBC could be dirty is if A) Casinos bought ISK and gave it to MBC or B) MBC members bought ISK from casinos. A is not possible because casinos were making money and had trillions already. B isn’t likely either because it would be like working for free in MBC.

            4. Easily. But let’s explain what actually happened. You came to MY discord and started chatting up your brain dead Koolaid nonsense. I made a statement that Goon propaganda was like DPRK brainwashing. You made a comment about how I “literally” believed you were North Korea. Of course I didn’t. I made an analogy. So I asked if you had some mental issue that stopped you from understanding the difference between literal and metaphorical. Then you blew up at me about black cocks up my ass. And when I posted the chatlogs you started whining and crying. As we saw from Curt’s logs you were very distressed because I showed something you had said. “The internet never forgets” lmao. Oooookay.

            5. Of course I never denied that I saw the guy’s e-mail. He was pretending like he was some awesome solo pilot and his e mail was literally just the name of his eve character. I found his KB and posted it clearly showing he was an F1 monkey. None of this is doxxing. YOU claimed you had logs of me posting his IP. You lied.

            Yes I mentioned Curt.Curt leaked logs from my private convo. I carry no obligation to privacy of his messages anymore. That’s a two way street. Cry more.

            December 16, 2018 at 5:21 pm
          • Moomin Amatin Seraph IX Basarab

            1. The Judge tried to scam some ISK. Again big deal. Not sure how many times it needs to be said that scamming, for better or worse, is a part of Eve.

            2. Again a complete failure on your part to understand how The Imperium works. The Imperium does not just blacklist people because an alliance leader had a falling out with them. If that were the case then Co2 could have just blacklisted every corp and called it a day. They would have won The Casino War single-handedly.

            3. CCP took ISK and enforced bans. You can argue all you want about how you wish to define things but results remain the same. Lenny admitted to RMT activities. You then imply that Killah Bee must have bought ISK. Most importantly you miss a final option. One which involves how CCP wishes to handle such instances. Your determination to somehow prove your narrative is right limits the options you are prepared to see.

            4. You seem to be revelling in my distress again. Is this correct? Also your claims as to what happened are not true. You were fired from EN24 over this. So it seems that others did not believe your version of events either.

            5. When someone submits a comment it is not for the purposes of you to then access private information and use it to your own ends. That really should be the end of that, but for some reason you feel you are justified in such behaviour. Anyone thinking of commenting on EN24 should be aware of this.

            I would say that it is apparent that any conversation with you or Curt is likely to become public if it suits your own agenda. The worst bit is that you will only present such conversations in the light you want to. This seems to be to attack and harass people. As ever, stay classy.

            December 16, 2018 at 6:52 pm
          • Seraph IX Basarab Moomin Amatin

            1. It’s funny how you act like an outraged pearl clutching moralist when talking about Co2 leaving your coalition as some “betrayal” but when Judge tries to scam people he’s negotiating with it’s “just part of Eve.” You don’t see this as inconsistent?

            2. What? Nobody said Co2 can just “black list any corp.” It was a corp within their alliance that had awoxed their members. It wasn’t just some random group they decided to black list. You don’t make any sense.

            3. Again nobody is denying RMT. I’m simply stating that casinos wouldn’t have bought ISK to give to MBC. In essence the cause of MBC attacking Goons was not because of “RMT money.”

            4. Your distress his hilarious because you compare yourself to a real life rape victim because someone asked if you’re an autist on Eve Online. That’s what’s hilarious. And I was given a break from EN24 because you got offended and cried about it. Not because I lied about anything. Again your claim that I got removed from anywhere for lying is a lie itself.

            5. “Private information.” It was an e mail named after his Eve character. You claimed I showed his IP. Please show evidence of this or admit you lied.

            Harassment? You commented to me here. This isn’t your article and I never addressed you here. You always try to portray yourself as some victim. Does it ever get tiring?

            December 16, 2018 at 9:10 pm
  • Moomin Amatin

    Mittens has been very clear about his failures with regard to Co2. In fact there were significant changes to the internal structure of The Imperium as a result.

    But to compare Mittens to Gigx is simply wrong. You have one leader that has accepted responsibility for their failings and you have another which has been determined to blame others every time. Can you guess which is which?

    December 16, 2018 at 10:16 am