Ten years ago last week Band of Brothers, the original superpower in EVE Online, lost all their systems in a single night, and then disbanded the alliance. The following weeks saw Band of Brothers (BoB) dissolve into a few minor corporations, all of them now forgotten, while attempting to regroup in an NPC station in a dusty corner of BoB’s former empire. The collapsing alliance’s many enemies destroyed structures and holdings as BoB’s leaders, shocked by sudden exposure to meta-game deceit, struggled to come to terms with the defeat they had boasted they would never need to face. It was EVE’s first loss of a major alliance. Ten years later, the community still wonders whether Band of Brothers could have avoided this miserable end.
Beginnings: EVE’s First Great Powers
Band of Brothers formed shortly after EVE passed from Beta to open access, in 2004. The original alliance was anchored by three corporations with small gang PVP roots – Reikoku, Black Nova, and Evolution. The CEO of Evolution was SirMolle, who emerged as leader of the BoB alliance after its formation. One of BoB’s first campaigns pitted the alliance against another powerful entity, Ascendant Frontier, whose leader Cyvvok owned the first and – at that time – only titan in the game. BoB destroyed the titan while its owner was offline and ultimately crushed the entire alliance. This firmly established BoB as king of the hill in EVE’s formative years.
BoB consolidated support through alliances and feudalistic relationships with lesser powers over the next several years, during which its arch-rivals Red Alliance and Goonswarm entered the game and began to rise in opposition to BoB. The allies, collectively called the RedSwarm Federation, or RedSwarm for short, were an odd couple. Red Alliance had earned the reputation of a ferocious defender of its own territory by fending off a massive force attacking the only system it controlled at the time in a battle remembered as the Siege of C-J6MT. Goonswarm, on the other hand, sought no such glory and in fact ridiculed the seriousness of other alliances by “swarming” them with massive fleets of disposable ships in an effort to negate the effectiveness of the game’s complex mechanics. Furthermore, Goonswarm had disbanded and reformed several times in its early years, leading the great powers of EVE to assume the alliance was unstable and inconsequential. As a result, BoB ignored Goonswarm and barely paid attention to the beleaguered Red Alliance. This inattentiveness would cost BoB everything, in time.
Band of Developers
By 2007, RedSwarm had spent two years chipping away at BoB’s territory in the southeast and had pressured BoB to consolidate into the original “Fortress Delve” – a heavily reinforced single region in the southwestern part of nullsec. Facing threats on all fronts and struggling to hold off encroaching alliances on its northern borders, BoB hired mercenaries to hold the front while BoB focused on RedSwarm to the east. As BoB’s problems multiplied, a game developer was exposed passing off unique item blueprints to BoB, which the developer had joined with an in-game character. The resulting “Band of Developers” scandal tainted game developer CCP’s reputation and solidified opposition to Band of Brothers among the game’s alliances, who assumed BoB had cheated their way to the top. Opposition to BoB reached its apex following the scandal.
The Forever War and The Mittani
The next two years witnessed daily hostility against BoB by virtually every alliance in EVE. However, BoB could not be displaced from Delve owing to the hugely defensible geography of the region and the sovereignty mechanics of the time, which allowed BoB to fortify its stations with massive banks of defensive weaponry and place multiple jump bridges in each system to allow its members to travel across the region nearly instantaneously. BoB managed to gain control of the region to the immediate south, Period Basis, but their enemies failed to make inroads into any of BoB’s territories. The tide began to turn against BoB when their mercenary allies went renegade and claimed Period Basis for their own territory, forcing BoB into a standoff against enemies on all sides.
During this time, a BoB director named Haargoth Agamar placed a spy alt in Goonswarm in hopes of gaining valuable intelligence against BoB’s most tenacious enemy. However, over the months that followed, Agamar realized that he actually liked Goonswarm and came to resent the elitism and cheating for which his own alliance was known. Rather than turning over intelligence to BoB, Agamar turned double-agent and worked with Goonswarm’s then-spymaster and future leader, The Mittani, to undercut his own alliance. Agamar realized that at some point BoB had granted him the highest alliance-level roles to allow him authority over the alliance’s finances, which corporations were members of the alliance, and the standings of those corporations. These privileges would allow Agamar and The Mittani to ruin BoB in a single strike.
Annihilation
On February 5, 2009, Agamar logged in to destroy Band of Brothers. He seized all money and resources owned by BoB (leaving the now-legendary note “The Mittani sends his regards”), then kicked all corporations from the alliance. The next step was purely ceremonial: Agamar set the standings to all former members of BoB to -10.0. It was ultimately meaningless, though, because Agamar disbanded the alliance next, which instantly removed all of BoB’s sovereignty in Delve. The alliance no longer controlled any systems and thus could not utilize any jump bridges. Even worse, Agamar did all of this while BoB’s mostly European players were asleep, preventing them from organizing a hasty defense or evacuation of the region. Finally, Agamar raised a symbolic middle finger to his old alliance by creating a corporation named Band of Brothers, which The Mittani accepted into the Goonswarm alliance, to prevent former members from regrouping under the familiar name.
By the time alliance leaders awakened, RedSwarm was at the gates of Delve. Now allied with a young but aggressive alliance called Pandemic Legion, RedSwarm Federation commenced a campaign of destruction across Delve. All of BoB’s former stations, jump bridges, and other assets were destroyed by roving fleets that included titans, dreadnoughts, and assorted subcapital ships from many different alliances. As the dust settled, the former enemies of BoB parted ways and pursued their own goals. They had killed a giant.
Band of Brothers evacuated its few remaining members and capital ships to an NPC station in PR-8CA on the outskirts of Delve. Goonswarm and Pandemic Legion then ‘hellcamped’ the station for weeks to prevent any removal of resources. Eventually, the remnants of BoB reformed under the name KenZoku, but even this feeble gesture fell apart as members quit the game or left for other alliances. Only a few months later, on June 16, 2009, KenZoku relinquished all claims to territory in EVE Online, and the final remnant of Band of Brothers disbanded permanently.
Final Words
“There are no Goons.” – SirMolle, July 27, 2006, following an early eviction of Goonswarm from its territory in Cloud Ring. SirMolle’s judgment would prove to be premature.
“Today we destroyed Band of Brothers.” – The Mittani, February 5, 2009, upon the successful execution of Haargoth Agamar’s plan of betrayal.
155 comments
Nice narrative…would be a shame if someone were to ruin it.
“THIS is a complete work of fiction that somehow transposes The Mittani as instrumental in the defeat of BoB rather than a guy who showed up on Skype while others did the work then claimed ultimate credit which lead to appearances at GDC, a comic book, numerous articles and now a space business. All based on false pretenses. The story is still good. Mittani just didn’t really do very much at that time.” ~ Darius Johnson. CEO of Goons at the time.
“Honestly it took months to take down BoB, and it had very little to do with The Mittani.
IT had everything to do with the literally thousands of players, dozens of FC’s, and many seperate alliances working together to camp their entire dread fleet into their staging system and pr-.
I FC’d for TWO MONTHS, doing nothing but killing BoB poses. I would usually have about 40 dreads in fleet, we would split them into two man groups, and reinforce towers with 20 fucking hardeners on them each, night after night. After I went to bed, someone else took over, the dread fleet never stopped sieging for that entire time period. We got HUNDREDS of tower killmails in the end.
All this bullshit about Mittens swooping in and killing BoB all by himself is frankly hilarious and stupid. It’s too fucking complicated for that. What about the actions of PL, when we defended our aridia moons from 400 man fleets every night for weeks until they lost so many battleships they couldnt put a fleet together and half their pets just gave up forming at all? What about the guys who would sit on the PR- undock for hours on end, watching the bubbles, making sure a single person couldn’t undock?
Most of the time, Mittens wasn’t even around, a lot of the time this shit was headed up by PL FC’s making sure the job got done, because we were the only ones with the FC base to do it in our TZ.
But honestly, at this point in time, who gives a fuck, if mittens wants to pretend he took down BoB when all he actually did was post some shit on the forums every few days and pretend to tell FC’s what to do, that’s fine. The people who were there knew who did the work and who didn’t, just dont buy his fucking book you choobs.” Mr. Rive
Oh look, Seraph still exists.
How’s writing articles for EN24 going for you…….oh wait
It’s going fine? I don’t know what this is supposed to mean
You quote Darius Johnson from when he was working with PanFam during the Casino War in order to create a schism within The Imperium. DJ is a man baby who if he told me water was wet I would have to check for myself.
Then you go on to quote Mr Rive. A quick search will tell you all you need to know about them.
But hey, you believe what you want to believe and push whatever narrative you wish. I mean you could even make the claim you were responsible for flipping Co2 during the Casino War and write numerous articles about it. But for the informed it is more than apparent that a monkey with a shitty stick could have “flipped” Co2 and not even the monkey is required. The evidence of this is from a Co2 SOTA where it was confirmed that Co2 were looking to leave The Imperium over half a year before they did.
Well it’s not surprising that someone like you would have trouble ascertaining the basic qualities of water. I appreciate your honesty. But in any case that has nothing to do with DJ nor those anything you write discredit what he said and what many others present during these events also claimed.
What does a “quick search” for Mr Rive tell us? You said that like it’s supposed to mean something.
Dunno why you use the term “flip” in regards to Co2. That has never been my claim and that is not the term I use for them. DW and I spoke at length regarding the situation and negotiated terms of the defection for his Alliance. All of the logs for this have been provided and have been public for a long time now. I don’t need to fabricate things.
As I said, if you want to use quotes from people that were working for PanFam and were made during The Casino War as your basis for reality then that is up to you. I will go with the article that uses references that go back a decade which just so happens to be the nice one written by INN staffer Guilford Australis.
So now you claim not to have written numerous articles about the Co2 betrayal where you deny it was a betrayal on the part of Co2? All the time you act like a giddy school girl as you were able to get a little bit of recognition from PanFam leadership for your efforts in fiction.
This is how your Co2 logs should have looked like if you had any ability:
DW: We want to leave the nasty goonies
SB: Sure, what do you want?
DW: Nothing as the goon tears will be more than enough.
DB: OK, deal done.
Also you say that you released all of the logs but anyone who has dealt with you in the past knows you like to make stuff up from logs.
I’m using quotes from people who were actually there. And everyone that was there disputed mittens version of events. Whatever war was going on is irrelevant. But I guess part of being a propagandist such as yourself requires you to delve into more and more obscure conspiratorial delusions. I’m not seeing you dispute any of DJ’s claims. You’re simply attacking his character just as you don’t dispute any of my claims but instead attack me.
I’ve written numerous articles on the negotiations between myself and DW regarding CO2 and their defection. I would never use the term flip. Furthermore I care about pan fam leadership recognition about as much as they care about recognition from me. I couldn’t care less. Unlike you I’m not some propagandist on a leash singing praises for the Glorious leader.
Your claim that I modify logs has no backing. But again when you can’t actually dispute the fact you tried to attack people instead.
You are using quotes from people at war with The Imperium.
If DJ is such a true goon as you claim then they can post on our forums and be well received? I look forward to your spin on this one.
Why did you need to write so much about what should have been a 4 line conversation? Are you that terrible at being a diplo (all evidence should point to yes for this by the way)?
You cared loads about PanFam leadership at one point. One can even say that you still do as you are supposed to be running the NC sponsored mouth piece. Make sure Lady Scarlet does not hear you bad mouthing PanFam or she will pull your funding.
You take snippets of logs to support your special view on things. This is a fact well established by what you have written in the past in your own words.
I never made any statement on DJ being a “true goon” or not. Simply that he was leadership during the events in question. The approval of his statements on the Goon forum is irrelevant. I suppose for Fanatics like yourself truth exists within the parameters of goon narrative approval. For others such as myself who are a bit more agnostic, truth is not based on whether or not Goons agree on it.
I wrote extensively on the circle of to defection because it was a much more complicated matter. For people like you who simply equate the Goon narrative with good and everything else being bad I’m sure things are much more simple. You have to understand not everyone lives in your sycophantic fanaticism.
I never cared about pan fam leadership approval. Nor am I a mouthpiece for any of them. Lady Scarlet is a barely literate and dishonest individual who has only impressed me in the longevity of her position. How is that for being a mouthpiece?
I actually posted all of the logs regarding circle of two. Your claim that I posted only Snippets is laughable when I put out some three months worth of logs
Unfortunately for you, what people said on forums is rather easily searchable by google. I’ve noticed you never seem to report anything fairly regarding the Imperium anyways. So I tend to tune you out anyways. However, in the interest of a “fair” and “unbiased” opinion… pastebin those logs and let the rest of us judge.
http://evenews24.com/2017/03/28/raw-circle-of-two-defection-logs-from-wwb/
These logs have been public for 2 years now. I think your perception about my writing is skewed because unlike you I’m not attached to your alliance so I don’t feel any obligation to make it sound better than it is. Have you Alliance has its issues and as someone that writes critique pieces that’s what I address.
A log with your name in it means nothing to me based on the numerous lies you have told in the past.
The only liar here is you. You can’t name a single thing I lied about. You have no proof. All you can do is try to slander me. Just like when you followed me and my Discord Channel and started calling me racist homophobic things.
Way to prove your lies here – lol.
You are a pale version of Alex Jones. To add to that you make Alex Jones look reasonable and thoughtful.
https://imgur.com/a/wjICc4x
Maybe you will try to pretend you were talking about roosters again
Ahh partial logs again. You have never been brave enough to post the full logs as it would say far more about you than me.
Also not sure that why you would think that my comment was based on anything other than chickens. Your mind must work differently to mine. Wishful thinking perhaps?
What exactly did I omit from the logs? The chat to channel is public and free for anyone to join in and simply search themselves. Also just as I expected you are pretending you were talking about chickens. Nobody believes that.
You missed out loads in order to support your wish to be a narrative driver. You have stated in the past that your most favourite thing to do is to attack the strongest narrative. Another word for “the strongest narrative” is “truth”. Just saying. Or do you now want to go back on what you said in the past?
You said that I omitted things from the logs. Specifically in this case the discussion where you mentioned “two black cocks up my ass.” So once again I’m asking you what exactly I omitted from there?
And now you are trying to change the subject about something regarding narratives. Obviously I’m not talking about challenging truth. Once again I have to be very direct and blunt with you since you don’t seem to comprehend much. When I speak of narratives I’m speaking of propaganda nonsense like the kind you write
You only ever posted partial logs to try and present a narrative that was suitable to you. This is why you were sacked from en24. This is why en24 published an apology. Why would anyone believe the lies you tell?
I was never sacked for posting partial logs. You’re either delusional or a liar.
You were sacked from EN24 for making stuff up. Simple as that to be honest. Unless you actually have any proof yourself for the claims you make about me. You tried to convince people of your special view on things on your own blog site and failed there as well.
Anyone who knows me knows only too well I am none of the things you say I am. Whereas you are quite partial to calling people all manner of things. You even re-hash nazi propaganda for “fun”. A very weird view you have on the world tbh. The best bit is that when people do what you do you write long posts about how CCP should step in and defend you thinly veiled as “an opportunity missed”.
I wasn’t sacked from EN24 for making things up. Johann was concerned that our public discussion where I asked you if you are literally autistic and if I should change my way of communicating, was offensive. So nothing about “omitting logs” as you lied. Nothing about “making things up” as you lied.
All I know is that your answer was talking about black cocks in my ass. And pretending you were talking about chickens is pretty funny. And now trying to call me a Nazi…? When you were making that commentary? Also hilarious.
You take snippets of conversations and misrepresent them in order to support your own agenda. Pretty sure that makes you a liar. This stuff about Mittens apparently rewriting history is proof of that. Out of all the words written about the fall of BoB and the numerous times Mittens has relayed the story acknowledging the efforts of others, you take a small quip and try to turn it into a narrative that you think is beneficial to you. You are obsessed with Goons, Mittens and of course me. No reasonable person would try to push the weak arguments that you do with such fervour. I mean if you actually have evidence of what you say then it would be easy to present. You have claimed I am an autistic, racist homophobe and based all of that on your own interpretation of a glib comment that was open to a different interpretation. To my mind, your interpretation is very much more a reflection of you than it is of me. All the time you try to make yourself more impressive than you are. Constantly leaching off the names of others. Meanwhile I have to fight to keep your comments in place as they are a wonderful demonstration of the type of person you are. So I look forward to the next round of comments you make where you add nothing aside from further eroding any remaining reputation you think you have.
Just dropping this against your comments now as it seems to cover all the bases pretty much. Unless you actually have something substantial to add then expect to see this a lot.
Nothing to add except that you lied about me being sacked over omitting logs. You lied about that.
#6 – *more yawns*
You take snippets of conversations and misrepresent them in order to support your own agenda. Pretty sure that makes you a liar. This stuff about Mittens apparently rewriting history is proof of that. Out of all the words written about the fall of BoB and the numerous times Mittens has relayed the story acknowledging the efforts of others, you take a small quip and try to turn it into a narrative that you think is beneficial to you. You are obsessed with Goons, Mittens and of course me. No reasonable person would try to push the weak arguments that you do with such fervour. I mean if you actually have evidence of what you say then it would be easy to present. You have claimed I am an autistic, racist homophobe and based all of that on your own interpretation of a glib comment that was open to a different interpretation. To my mind, your interpretation is very much more a reflection of you than it is of me. All the time you try to make yourself more impressive than you are. Constantly leaching off the names of others. Meanwhile I have to fight to keep your comments in place as they are a wonderful demonstration of the type of person you are. So I look forward to the next round of comments you make where you add nothing aside from further eroding any remaining reputation you think you have.
Just dropping this against your comments now as it seems to cover all the bases pretty much. Unless you actually have something substantial to add then expect to see this a lot.
lol spamming the same msg, not addressing the claim that I got sacked for omitting logs. You flat out lied. But okay I see you’ve had enough.
#8 – Still waiting for you to offer proof or say something original.
You are positively obsessed with me it would seem. You have written more articles and posts where I am at least mentioned probably more than any other subject in Eve.
You claim to be able to know how someone is feeling from miles away like some psychic snake-oil huckster. Or to know about their physical characteristics. I am just waiting for you to ask for pics so that you have something more concrete with which to satisfy your fantasies. “Prove you are not a fat neck beard by sending me pics”.
The intellect you have is spent on self promotion and bashing of others in order to prove some sort of superiority. All the time in denial of your true nature as that would be too painful to bear. Meanwhile the rest of the world moves on and the fame and success you seem to clamour slips through your fingers. Your blog site falls further into irrelevance under your guidance. Perhaps if you were to direct your efforts in a more positive direction, you would not find yourself trying to win points on comments, that are unlikely to ever be read, on the website of those you consider to be your enemies.
I do thank you though for your comments as it is a great way to show others your nature on a website that is actually read.
Do you see any citations in this article from Goonswarm, INN, or any remotely Goon-friendly news source? Did you even read the article or glance at the citations? Even the closing quote by The Mittani is taken from a neutral news account from the time. This article is sourced from reams of news reports contemporary to the events – all of which you refuse to accept because two people gave an alternate version that you’d prefer to believe.
Your Pavlovian obsession with The Mittani – in the context of an article that gave full credit for BoB’s downfall to Haargoth Agamar – is utterly bizarre. You are the only one making this all about The Mittani.
Nobody is disputing the sources. Just the way they are presented. If I wrote an article about the 1917 October Revolution and only mentioned Stalin I could use factual sources. But it would ignore the presence of Lenin and Trotsky. Thus even though what I present is not factually false, the lack of context and omissions present a falsified version of History.
You know disparaging any of the victors after the fact sounds a bit shrill don’t you think?
This article mentions The Mittani four times in ~2000 words (compared with six times where you name him in your comments). Here are those four mentions:
– He worked with Agamar
– He had some unspecified role in helping Agamar plan
– He sends his regards
– He accepts the new BoB corp into Goonswarm.
Which of these four mentions is inaccurate in the sense of describing something that The Mittani did not do or that other people did instead?
I’ll let the readers decide which account is more credible: A studiously researched article with citations linked throughout, or a commenter noted for his slobbering hatred of Goonswarm who claims to have secret knowledge from PanFam about what really happened.
Being critical of something made up is not slobbering hatred. Actually I’m just using commentary from original SA Goons. And I never claimed that I have some secret knowledge. Even the quote I provided is public for almost three years now. I don’t think you did your research.
“I don’t think you did your research.”
– an actual comment left on an article that has fourteen external hyperlinks in it
You can have 10,000 hyperlinks but if they don’t back your claim up they are worthless. Tell me which hyperlink disproves DJs statement?
DJ’s statement has absolutely nothing to do with this article. The article does not present The Mittani as having any kind of instrumental role in the collapse of BoB. In the context of the disbanding, it mentions him literally twice, as a guy Haargoth was talking to when he planned his coup. (In fact, it was logically necessary to at least mention him, because the message “The Mittani sends his regards” would have made zero sense if Guilford had not explained who The Mittani was.)
You’re arguing against a literal strawman, against a concept of The Mittani that is not advanced by the article you’re commenting on.
The statement was from 2016 so it didn’t specifically speak to this article. But it addressed the underlying historical falsification. And of course the article presents mittens as instrumental. At least instrumental enough that he’s the only one mentioned. And there are multiple articles wear mittens himself claims credit. I will expand upon this soon enough
So are you going to back your claims up? I mean you just pasted some words from people that are enemies of The Imperium. Or is this the “fair and balanced” reporting you are so keen on?
Of course I always do. I was working on an article already that will be out soon.
Well that should keep you out of trouble for a bit then I guess. I can’t wait to see your revised version of history. But perhaps this time you will forgo trying to place yourself as a critical part of history.
Place myself in critical parts of History? What am I the CEO of goonswarm?
I would not be surprised for you to make such a claim given your “special” world view on things.
I remember I have to be very explicit and direct with you in order to understand what I mean. So very specifically and directly I do not make up things where I place myself in critical parts of History. This is what your leader does not me.
Seraph already admitted he posted a quote (from 2016) that has nothing to do with this article, in order to “disprove” a thesis that the article never advances.
It would have been quicker and easier for all of us if he had begun his initial comment with “I AM ABOUT TO WASTE ALL OF YOUR TIME.”
It is a standard part of his method. That pony really needs to get a new trick or two.
The quote addresses the main issue with the article. The article place is mittens at the center of goon involvement in the event in question.
The article says many things about BoB, Red Alliance, Goonswarm, BoB’s mercenaries, and even Pandemic Legion. The few details it mentions about The Mittani are universally attested in reporting from the era. I’m not going to take the word of two people – regardless of their proximity – to contradict the entire historical record on this matter.
I can think of many reasons why two burned-out former Goons who joined PanFam would have reasons to advance a less-than-factual narrative – surely you can, too? I saw a comment indicating you write EVE news for another site – surely you have a concept of the relative credibility of sources and what bias or conflict of interest do to the value of those sources? If you’re writing about this stuff, I certainly hope you do.
This is not just the word of two burnouts. DJ was leadership of Goons. Around the same time you have the testimony of several other Goons claiming the same thing. Temir for example is the guy that Haargoth actually reaches out to. If you consider yourself some kind of investigative journalists I would go and see who around that time in leadership is willing to back mittens version of events.
DJ has no credibility as a source given his storied history.
Well to you only people who are as fanatically loyal to mittens have any kind of credibility. I guess everyone but mittens is lying.
My only loyalty is to my fellow goons.
But we know only too well that if you actually had real proof of Mittens lying that you would have plastered it all over your “news” site. You would have also used your proxy accounts on Reddit.
I mean I already told you that I’m working on an article. Actually this comment section discussion is helpful to me to further develop some points. Also you’re paranoid accusations that I have proxy accounts are pretty hilarious. Are you okay?
Weird as I am confident you do not post under the name of Seraph on Reddit. So which one of us is lying here?
My point of contention was that you claim that I have multiple proxy accounts. Not that my Reddit name is different than my game name. I think most people do that. And I’ve never made any secret of it. It’s Man Who Sold the World. Like the song. What a weird thing to bring up. But anyway your paranoia over me having proxies is pretty comical
Ah yes the song where David Bowie covers his belief that something of him was missing at the time. Interesting.
It is not paranoia when a person has claimed to be many things and then be shown not to be. You claimed to be an expert on diplomacy, being a spy master and even made grand claims about knowing about PvP. This is to name but a few. Oh is there no end to your seemingly endless talents?
I think you’re reading too much into this. It’s just the song name. Also I was more in favor of the Scottish cover. Anyway sorry if Talent escapes you so much that it is unfathomable for others to have it to you.
“Anyway sorry if Talent escapes you so much that it is unfathomable for others to have it to you.”
I think I need Google translate for this bit.
Not surprising.
It’s always tedious when people compel me to repeat facts they already know:
1. Darius Johnson fought against Goonswarm for Pandemic Horde during the Casino War and made the statement you quoted while he was working to undermine public opinion of Goonswarm. You don’t think that might be a significant detail that might color the statement’s credibility and might have been worth a mention in your supposedly superior account of the fall of BoB?
2. Mr Rive similarly spent the last four or five years in EVE doing his best to destroy Goonswarm as a member of Sniggerdly – both militarily and in his frequent, public ridicule of the alliance. You don’t think that might be a significant detail that might color the statement’s credibility and might have been worth a mention in your supposedly superior account of the fall of BoB?
The many sources I cited and linked in the article all contradict the two highly dubious statements you put forth as evidence that this article is “made up.” And you won’t find any articles by The Mittani, Goonswarm, or INN among those sources. They are simply the historical record from the period, whether or not those facts comport with your fantasy.
So by that logic only people who are your allies can tell the truth? I see you don’t actually dispute any of the things they said. Only that because at one time or another they shot at your internet pixels they can’t be trusted.
You don’t read anything you comment on, do you?
Was there a fact that you disputed from DJ’s quote? Must have missed it to my apology. Can you let me know where it was
Just because DJ wrote some words does not mean that they are in any way true. Just like you write words, lots of them, that are shown to be completely false.
DJ, Blawrf, Endie, Vily, SUAS, I’m sure they’re all lying
4 out of 5 are from PanFam. 3 of which no longer even seem to play the game anymore. The remaining one knows only too well what valued allies PanFam are and instead has interests aligned with The Imperium.
Once again truthfulness is not based on allegiance to goonswarm. Try to see past your fanaticism for once.
So in your world former members of goons, who left on bad terms of their own making for the enemies of goons, are more likely to be telling the truth than 3rd party sources written 10 years ago?
I’m saying third-party sources like rock paper shotgun and the BBC got their information from mittens who presented himself as the one who disbanded Bob and played some kind of central role in all of that. Things like Haargoth searching mittens out which are also presented in that laughably bad comic book are simply false. Quite possibly there’s a reason why all of those people left on bad terms. If someone keeps having their friends leave them perhaps they are the issue. Not everyone else.
The only one who keeps talking about Mittens is you. You seem positively obsessed about him.
As for leaving, well I will have to bow to your greater knowledge of that given your own history with failed alliances. Speaking of which, what alliance are you in now so that I may also take glee in watching them die a slow death of irrelevance?
You asked me. I answered. Nice dodge to personal attacks again.
Which alliance am I at fault for causing to have failed?
There was no need to add anything else. You said that all the news sources at the time got it wrong. That is your opinion and you can back it up as you see fit. As such I look forward to you doing a “real history” piece on your site. I especially like the comments.
I never suggested that you were at fault. But now that you mention it does it not seem a coincidence that your alliance history is littered with failures?
Like I’ve already said I will address all of these points at length. In any case I don’t know what my past alliances have to do with anything. If you are trying to imply I’m at fault for something you can go ahead and present your case with specific examples. Otherwise you’re just distracting from the discussion because you lack any meaningful thing to say
I have repeatedly asked you to stay on point. Meanwhile you go off on weird tangents in order to try and distract from the fact that you quoted enemies of The Imperium during The Casino War to bolster your supposed position.
I’ve addressed this point already. That’s not an argument. Just because they shot your spaceships doesn’t mean what they said is false. But please go ahead and prove they lied
Ah the old throwing the burden of proof onto me.
The article cited numerous 3rd party sources that were written at the time. There was plenty of opportunity of rebuttal at that time, and for 10 years after, but seemingly it is not present. You make fallacious claims to the veracity of the piece by quoting people who have a vested interest in painting The Imperium in as bad a light as possible. But somehow your quotes are “the truth” and the 3rd party sources are lying.
It is up to you to prove your stance and I especially look forward to you getting a current quote from Mittens on this matter. Of course I am sure you would not take that out of context and change it to suit your needs should you be able to get one.
Again those third-party sources all use mittens as a source. He went to speak with them so they’re going to write what they’re told because they don’t play the game. That’s not evidence of anything. Nor is the absence of evidence evidence of absence. These are basic research principles you would think someone such as yourself would have at least a tepid grasp of.
And mittens has just as much if not more of a vested interest to lie. It’s really simple. Should one believe mittens or should we believe the half-dozen other leadership people in his Alliance that all back What DJ says.
As for having a discussion mittens can find me on Discord. When I question The Narrative of the event he blocked me on Twitter. He’s afraid to engage me in a discussion and always has been. He only once did it on Slack with 20 other of his underlings spamming the chat Channel. This was when he was telling me that he got pinged about my article while he was at the club the previous night… Which happened to be a Wednesday night XD
So you are saying that all the places that reported on the event did a terrible job? That none of them checked anything relayed to them by Mittens, if indeed Mittens was the sole source?
Again this article only briefly mentions Mittens. Who was in charge of spies at the time of the fall of BoB? That is right, it was Mittens. Was he aware of the planned coup of BoB? Yes he was. Did the article on INN state that Mittens was specifically sought out? No it did not.
But now we get to the heart of the matter. You claim that Mittens is scared of you. This has to be the funniest thing you have ever written. If you compare all that Mittens has achieved to your own efforts then I think a clear winner is evident. Goons are the largest group in the game. Fought tooth and nail against almost all of nullsec. Bounced back and smashed PanFam to the point where PanFam had to claim they won so hard they could not log back in again.
Meanwhile you have failed in every endeavour you have set out to accomplish. Failed diplomat, failed spy master, failed extortionist. Even by your own words it took you 3 months to negotiate the betrayal of Co2. A sorry state of affairs given that Co2 were chomping at the bit to leave The Imperium. No wonder Mittens blocked you as you are the very embodiment of Charlie Zelenoff.
Yeah all of the places that reported it got it wrong because none of them actually did journalism. No one would expect them to because this is just a niche game with obscure elements laugh unless you play the game I’m going to have a hard time following.
A dozen other people in Goon leadership were aware of the same thing. But nobody else ran to the BBC to claim they disbanded Bob. Again this article is a Lie by omission following a false narrative designed to create the impression mittens played a larger role than he did.
Yes it’s surprising that mittens with his many accomplishments runs scared from me. Just like you do leaving every common discord channel. I don’t get it either considering you are both so accomplished ;]
So does this mean you are now intending to try and do some journalism yourself? As it certainly sounds like it. I hope so as it will be yet another thing you can fail at. Although I am happy for you to prove me wrong.
You keep saying this but fail to offer any proof at all. No proof of who spoke to who and in what capacity. Not even a shred of evidence of who approached who. Just because you say something does not make it true.
You say Mittens runs scared of you but again no evidence of this whatsoever. I also do not run from you either. But given that you are prone to manipulating logs and generally making stuff up I tend to prefer to keep everything very much in the public domain.
Not sure why you say I am “so accomplished”. I just see myself as a goon F1 pusher and that is something I am quite proud of. I guess I also have a certain amount of pride in not quitting and also still being with the same people, corp and alliance for many years. Weird how we are so different in that regard.
Anyhoo you stay on point here and remember the initial points you made. Also try as hard as you can to actually read this article before going off on any weird tangents to support your own “creative” version of events. I would not like to see “I, Seraph, saviour of Eve, with my totally cool suggestions at how to fix the game, was a key component in every major event in Eve history!”.
Geez dude you sound angry af. “blah blah blah another thing you can fail at!”
I mean: http://evenews24.com/2016/01/24/seraph-ix-basarab-darius-johnson-written-out-but-not-silent/
What log did I manipulate? I asked you what log I manipulated in the other chain and you still never answered. You just claimed I was sacked by EN24 for doing it. I wasn’t sacked for manipulating any logs. You’re a liar.
Yeah dude congrats being a Goon forever.
I never claimed I was a savior of Eve or at every major event in Eve history. Nice strawman.
Oh so you are claiming to have paranormal powers now and to be able to read my emotional state remotely? Well if there is anything you will write today that confirms your vague relationship with any sort of truth then this is it.
You have stated that you are very keen to “attack the strongest narrative”. As I have already mentioned before often the strongest narrative can actually go by the name of “truth”. Unless of course you now want to say that you never said something of that ilk. But we both know that would be a lie.
Thank you as I intend to be a goon for as long as I can. Generally I think that goons are pretty good for the game. More battles, songs and stories have been written about the goons than any other entity in Eve. Truly a great legacy to be a part of.
So are you also now denying your writing efforts about making suggestions to “fix the game”? Or the numerous posts where you bloviate your own activities to make yourself seem more influential than you are? One of my favourites has to be a bit you did about diplomacy where you then go off on one about martial arts, that one was hilarious.
But again here you are going off on tangents. Hiding behind lots of words and insults as your initial comments here have been shown to be woefully lacking in veracity. Never change Seraph, never change.
I know recognizing human emotion is challenging for you but it’s not that difficult for most people. Clearly you are severely asshurt rambling and ranting about imagined failures on my behalf. But okay man. Whatever makes you feel more secure.
I already explained to you that narrative in that context referred to propaganda. Not truth. Nice try though. Let me know if I should explain it to you a third time.
Okay enjoy being a Goon I guess. Don’t care. Spaceship guilds aren’t that serious for me.
I made suggestions about the game. But making suggestions and claiming to be a savior are very different things. You have a warped sense of reality.
You’re the one that brought up my supposed failures…when I was discussing the “BoB incident.” You’re the one that brings up other things.
This article has 14 articles cited. You steam in with 2 quotes from 8 years after from hostiles of The Imperium. Somehow your quotes trump the contents of the article. You then fail to back up your position with any facts and have gone on yet another extraordinary journey of comments.
Stick to the task at hand.
Okay. Which citation contradicts DJ?
DJ said some stuff 8 years after an event. Why did DJ not say something earlier? The onus of proof is on you here. The article only mentions Mittens in passing and that is based from 14 other articles. You claim that Mittens approached all media outlets at the time and offer nothing to substantiate your claim.
Are you having a problem with understanding any of this? Or are you perhaps just intending on repeating the same fiction in the hope that it will become reality at some point?
Dunno why DJ didn’t speak up then. Probably didn’t care. He quit the game as well.
Anyway speaking of the sources, have you looked at these “14 sources?” You keep bringing them up like they back your argument yet most of them say nothing of what I’m addressing. For example:
https://eve.fandom.com/wiki/Band_of_Brothers
This is a fandom wiki about Band of Brothers. Doesn’t add anything. Another link: https://www.engadget.com/2010/02/04/goonswarm-alliance-disbanded-in-eve-online-political-drama/
This one talks about how Goonswarm got disbanded. Doesn’t talk about what we’re discussing.
This link: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/09/09/the-great-war/
Talks about a Titan dying. Not about Mitten’s supposed massive role in the Haargoth affair.
This link: https://www.eveonline.com/article/ascendant-frontier-titan-destroyed Talks about a titan dying offline. Again nothing about what we’re discussing.
So what “14 sources” are you using to back your argument and disagree with DJ?
Oh wait…hold on…let’s look here: https://www.gameskinny.com/5oa07/eve-online-rogues-gallery-haargoth-agamar-the-alliance-defector
Well well well look at that. From the article: “A Goonswarm recruiter called Tamir Lenk was using the recruitment channel to find marks to scam (with his neutral alt character), where he targeted a miner called Harkani. Mid-scam, Tamir Lenk had a change of heart and recruited Harkani, only for the new recruit to confess a day later that he was actually Haargoth Agamar, a director of Band of Brothers member corporation Black Nova Corp, and someone who had access to everything Band of Brothers had to offer, including the “disband alliance” button.”
Like DJ says Tamir Lenk was the guy who found Haargoth. And if you click the link in this very same article…what does Mitten’s say?
The Mittani
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation Posted – 2009.02.05 23:34:00 – [8]
tamir lenk: one humble goon scammer topples an empire~~
At the time he even recognizes Temir Lenk as the man of the hour here. Hmm maybe DJ wasn’t saying anything contradictory because this Mittens myth only developed later.
By 2011 what does Mittens say?
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/04/07/eve-online-audience-with-the-king-of-space/
RPS: So what happened to Band of Brothers?
MT: I, uh, disbanded them.
Suddenly it’s not Tamir Lenk who “topples an empire.” Suddenly Mittens claims he “uh” disbanded them. Doesn’t even MENTION Tamir Lenk once. Quite a change in tune. Quite a transformation wouldn’t you say?
GG
EZ
With your own source nonetheless.
Just a year or ago or so Mittens said what his involvement was on the Meta show. He has never had to steal credit from the actions of others. But was Mittens involved being in charge of spies at the time? Why yes he was. Was Mittens aware of what was happening? Yes again. Would it be at his command that action was taken and relayed? Yes to that as well. Mittens has enough accomplishments of his own and continues to do so.
It was Mittens and another notable goon that realised that BoB could be disbanded. Credit to all parties is given on the goon wiki. If Mittens was looking to alter history, as you claim he is inclined to do so, then he would have removed and altered all of the goon forums and wiki. This has not been done.
So where is your proof of Mittens approaching all news outlets 10 years ago? Where is the proof about what DJ did or did not do for over 8 years? Quite simply you have none and your initial comment was simply trying to push the very weak narrative of yours.
Even the most inept of spies could find this out. Which is surprising as it still seems to be a mystery to you.
So does this mean you will have to pad out your story with other poor martial arts analogies?
Making a mention of Tamir and taking the bulk of credit are not mutually exclusive. I showed you with two sources, on in which at first he gave Tamir credit, and a latter source from rockpapershotgun where he “uh, disbanded BoB.”
Also you seem to be contradicting yourself. Either Mittens agrees with DJ when DJ said Mittens didn’t play the central role in the Haargoth affair, or Mitten’s disagrees and claims the bulk of credit which is disputed is contradicted by the sources I just provided. So which is it?
Get off the martial arts thing. You’re so obsessed with that. Don’t you have to go find what logs I omitted when you talked about me taking two black cocks up my ass?
There were more people involved than just Talmir and Mittens. You know it is possible for more than one person to be key in a story yes? It is not as black and white as you like to try and paint it and you know it.
You have made a bunch of statements here in the comments which you have failed again and again to back up. Oh let me guess, for the next bit you will go on about is “where! where are all the things I failed to back up?”. Because that is your normal thing. I then list them all and you side step each one of them as normal. We have all seen this time and again Seraph. So off you pop and go and play “journalist” on your hobbyist site and then post that to Reddit where I am sure it will be well received as normal. Or perhaps you will go off and play historian or diplomat or FC or whatever else takes your fancy.
I just thought the martial arts stuff was incredibly funny. It was a thing that you did where you tried to prove yourself so knowledgeable and yet looked like a complete idiot. I mean sure, some people would have likely gone “oh that’s really insightful” but for me it was just laughable.
You really seem fixated with these black cocks. And as already covered your fixation seems determined that they are of a sexual nature and not as actually intended. Is there something on your mind you would like to talk about?
You have backed away from the DJ stuff that was posted by DJ while he was trying to create a schism during The Casino War. Which just so happens to be 8 years after the event being discussed. You never even tried to pursue the validity of Mr Rive quote as you know that is even harder to do. Remember you said “Nice narrative, it would be a shame if someone ruined it”. At this point the only thing I see ruined is your comments failing to prove your initial point. So get on with it and prove your initial stance and now try to do it without quotes 8 years after the event. Also do not cherry pick a few words and then place them out of context as you are so inclined to do. To anyone else this would be a trivial task if it were true.
Sure it’s possible to have multiple people be key. The issue however is that Mitten’s version of events changed from “Tamir, destroyer of BoB” to “I, uh, disbanded BoB” as I showed you his quotes.
I did back them up. I showed you with your own source where you were wrong. I also showed you how most of your sources don’t even address our disagreement. Dunno what my credentials as a historian, eve diplo or FC have to do with anything though. Are you ok?
Maybe if martial arts (or any kind of physical activity) were less laughable to you, you might be in better shape. In any case I really don’t remember the article in question or the context, but I would say it’s pretty unhealthy for you to obsess over it.
Moomin the hilarious thing is everyone knows what you meant by your black cock comment. Nobody actually believes you meant anything else.You lost your temper and said a crude racist and homophobic thing in the moment. And in order to save face you just lie. I understand though you feel particularly victimized because your nature was exposed: https://pastebin.com/q8q4r2vu
Anyway my point was you claimed that I omitted some logs and you have yet to show what logs I ommitted which got me sacked from EN24. Still waiting.
Where have I backed away from what DJ said? Who cares if it was 8 years later? This is 10 years later. So what?
Again with more of your flat earth Alex Jones nonsense.
This really is showing you for the shill you are. You have stated numerous times that you like to make stuff up if it attacks what you consider to be the strongest narrative. This again is one of those instances. You have not shown anything other than you are living in a fantasy world.
But you know this hence you going off on your normal patter of trying personal insults and attacks. You know as much about me as you do about many things, that is to say nothing at all.
Keep on keeping on Seraph and I look forward to you writing yet another article about me. What are you up to now 5? Given that you are inclined to think about my body a lot and sexualise my comments I am starting to wonder that you are more than a little obsessed with me ;-).
I’ve never said I like to make stuff up. You’re a liar.
I’ve never sexualized you. You talked about black cocks up my ass. That’s you bud. Not me.
Still waiting for you to show what logs I omitted
Anyway speaking of the sources, have you looked at these “14 sources?” You keep bringing them up like they back your argument yet most of them say nothing of what I’m addressing. For example:
https://eve.fandom.com/wiki…
This is a fandom wiki about Band of Brothers. Doesn’t add anything. Another link: https://www.engadget.com/20…
This one talks about how Goonswarm got disbanded. Doesn’t talk about what we’re discussing.
This link: https://www.rockpapershotgu…
Talks about a Titan dying. Not about Mitten’s supposed massive role in the Haargoth affair.
This link: https://www.eveonline.com/a… Talks about a titan dying offline. Again nothing about what we’re discussing.
So what “14 sources” are you using to back your argument and disagree with DJ?
Oh wait…hold on…let’s look here: https://www.gameskinny.com/…
Well well well look at that. From the article: “A Goonswarm recruiter called Tamir Lenk was using the recruitment channel to find marks to scam (with his neutral alt character), where he targeted a miner called Harkani. Mid-scam, Tamir Lenk had a change of heart and recruited Harkani, only for the new recruit to confess a day later that he was actually Haargoth Agamar, a director of Band of Brothers member corporation Black Nova Corp, and someone who had access to everything Band of Brothers had to offer, including the “disband alliance” button.”
Like DJ says Tamir Lenk was the guy who found Haargoth. And if you click the link in this very same article…what does Mitten’s say?
The Mittani
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation Posted – 2009.02.05 23:34:00 – [8]
tamir lenk: one humble goon scammer topples an empire~~
At the time he even recognizes Temir Lenk as the man of the hour here. Hmm maybe DJ wasn’t saying anything contradictory because this Mittens myth only developed later.
By 2011 what does Mittens say?
https://www.rockpapershotgu…
RPS: So what happened to Band of Brothers?
MT: I, uh, disbanded them.
Suddenly it’s not Tamir Lenk who “topples an empire.” Suddenly Mittens claims he “uh” disbanded them. Doesn’t even MENTION Tamir Lenk once. Quite a change in tune. Quite a transformation wouldn’t you say?
GG
EZ
With your own source nonetheless.
You are positively obsessed with me it would seem. You have written more articles and posts where I am at least mentioned probably more than any other subject in Eve.
You claim to be able to know how someone is feeling from miles away like some psychic snake-oil huckster. Or to know about their physical characteristics. I am just waiting for you to ask for pics so that you have something more concrete with which to satisfy your fantasies. “Prove you are not a fat neck beard by sending me pics”.
The intellect you have is spent on self promotion and bashing of others in order to prove some sort of superiority. All the time in denial of your true nature as that would be too painful to bear. Meanwhile the rest of the world moves on and the fame and success you seem to clamour slips through your fingers. Your blog site falls further into irrelevance under your guidance. Perhaps if you were to direct your efforts in a more positive direction, you would not find yourself trying to win points on comments, that are unlikely to ever be read, on the website of those you consider to be your enemies.
I do thank you though for your comments as it is a great way to show others your nature on a website that is actually read.
Ok Moomin.
Glad you agree.
Actually legitimately starting to be somewhat concerned for you. I feel like I’ve been in a boxing match and realize the person I’ve been sparring with is mentally challenged. I feel guilt and disgust for spending this much time with what is clearly a mentally limited individual such as yourself. =/
#7 – Same pony, same trick.
You are positively obsessed with me it would seem. You have written more articles and posts where I am at least mentioned probably more than any other subject in Eve.
You claim to be able to know how someone is feeling from miles away like some psychic snake-oil huckster. Or to know about their physical characteristics. I am just waiting for you to ask for pics so that you have something more concrete with which to satisfy your fantasies. “Prove you are not a fat neck beard by sending me pics”.
The intellect you have is spent on self promotion and bashing of others in order to prove some sort of superiority. All the time in denial of your true nature as that would be too painful to bear. Meanwhile the rest of the world moves on and the fame and success you seem to clamour slips through your fingers. Your blog site falls further into irrelevance under your guidance. Perhaps if you were to direct your efforts in a more positive direction, you would not find yourself trying to win points on comments, that are unlikely to ever be read, on the website of those you consider to be your enemies.
I do thank you though for your comments as it is a great way to show others your nature on a website that is actually read.
Here’s the million dollar question you haven’t yet answered. If The Mittani’s involvement in all of this was so trivial, why did Agamar himself leave the note “The Mittani sends his regards”? Why not any of the other people who you’re obsessively trying to argue had a more important role in the whole affair?
Because Mittens was the “spymaster” of Goons. He didn’t even recruit/convince Haargoth. Here’s a better question. What DID Mittens do?
Did he recruit haargoth? No.
Did he convince haargoth to defect? No.
Did he disband BoB like he claimed he did? No. Haargoth did.
The greatest thing Mittens did with this was convince thousands of players he had a much more prominent role than he did. And I grant you that that actually is an accomplishment as well. It’s the “founding myth” of Mittens era Goons that solidified his image in the game. I despite providing logs and evidence showing that he essentially made it up, it won’t matter to most Goons. Either way a cool part of Eve history. But I think this analysis makes it even more interesting.
Now who is pushing a false narrative? That is right it is you.
You had the simple task of proving your initial point and have repeatedly failed to do so. Well it would have been simple if it were not a complete work of fiction on your part.
Rather than going “yeah I do not really know about the events back then and I am wrong” you dig your heals in like the most ardent flat earther.
Was Mitens in charge spies? – Yes.
Did the guy who convinced Haargoth to flip report to Mittens and keep him in the loop? – Yes.
Was it Mittens and xttc who realised that BoB could be disbanded completely and not just do a simple director level theft? – Yes.
Was the note sent at Mittens instruction? – Yes.
Yet you still maintain you are right based on the reports of enemies of The Imperium 8 years after the event. This is starting to get funnier than your ninja-diplo stuff.
Anyway speaking of the sources, have you looked at these “14 sources?” You keep bringing them up like they back your argument yet most of them say nothing of what I’m addressing. For example:
https://eve.fandom.com/wiki…
This is a fandom wiki about Band of Brothers. Doesn’t add anything. Another link: https://www.engadget.com/20…
This one talks about how Goonswarm got disbanded. Doesn’t talk about what we’re discussing.
This link: https://www.rockpapershotgu…
Talks about a Titan dying. Not about Mitten’s supposed massive role in the Haargoth affair.
This link: https://www.eveonline.com/a… Talks about a titan dying offline. Again nothing about what we’re discussing.
So what “14 sources” are you using to back your argument and disagree with DJ?
Oh wait…hold on…let’s look here: https://www.gameskinny.com/…
Well well well look at that. From the article: “A Goonswarm recruiter called Tamir Lenk was using the recruitment channel to find marks to scam (with his neutral alt character), where he targeted a miner called Harkani. Mid-scam, Tamir Lenk had a change of heart and recruited Harkani, only for the new recruit to confess a day later that he was actually Haargoth Agamar, a director of Band of Brothers member corporation Black Nova Corp, and someone who had access to everything Band of Brothers had to offer, including the “disband alliance” button.”
Like DJ says Tamir Lenk was the guy who found Haargoth. And if you click the link in this very same article…what does Mitten’s say?
The Mittani
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation Posted – 2009.02.05 23:34:00 – [8]
tamir lenk: one humble goon scammer topples an empire~~
At the time he even recognizes Temir Lenk as the man of the hour here. Hmm maybe DJ wasn’t saying anything contradictory because this Mittens myth only developed later.
By 2011 what does Mittens say?
https://www.rockpapershotgu…
RPS: So what happened to Band of Brothers?
MT: I, uh, disbanded them.
Suddenly it’s not Tamir Lenk who “topples an empire.” Suddenly Mittens claims he “uh” disbanded them. Doesn’t even MENTION Tamir Lenk once. Quite a change in tune. Quite a transformation wouldn’t you say?
GG
EZ
With your own source nonetheless.
Again with the copy paste.
Did Mittens and xttc work out buttons could be pushed? I would say that is rather key in all of this. To not have done so would have meant that we would be marking the anniversary of an alliance theft.
You claimed that Mittens is trying to rewrite history and yet the stuff on the goon forums is there for any “true goon” to see. Mittens knows that part he played and the actions of others. He seems to have no issue with recognising the efforts of others.
Seems the copy paste is necessary to show you again the shift in narrative from “Tamir Lenk, killer of BoB” to “I, uh, disbanded BoB.”
#3
You take snippets of conversations and misrepresent them in order to support your own agenda. Pretty sure that makes you a liar. This stuff about Mittens apparently rewriting history is proof of that. Out of all the words written about the fall of BoB and the numerous times Mittens has relayed the story acknowledging the efforts of others, you take a small quip and try to turn it into a narrative that you think is beneficial to you. You are obsessed with Goons, Mittens and of course me. No reasonable person would try to push the weak arguments that you do with such fervour. I mean if you actually have evidence of what you say then it would be easy to present. You have claimed I am an autistic, racist homophobe and based all of that on your own interpretation of a glib comment that was open to a different interpretation. To my mind, your interpretation is very much more a reflection of you than it is of me. All the time you try to make yourself more impressive than you are. Constantly leaching off the names of others. Meanwhile I have to fight to keep your comments in place as they are a wonderful demonstration of the type of person you are. So I look forward to the next round of comments you make where you add nothing aside from further eroding any remaining reputation you think you have.
Just dropping this against your comments now as it seems to cover all the bases pretty much. Unless you actually have something substantial to add then expect to see this a lot.
We crashed into Delve the year before and failed.
While disbanding Bob was far from the end of the story, and you’re right it was a tremendous slog burning through the towers. I was there in the dread fleets every day on one character, camping PR- on the other. It was a long fight to actually evict KenZoku, the alliance BoB reformed as immediately after the disbanding. They only actually lost sov for roughly a day.
What made all of this possible was the dropping of the cyno jammers. In that era of the AOE doomsday, three(or usually more) titans would sit on a cyno jammer and simply doomsday anything trying to drop it. No subcap fleet could bring down a jammer defended by titans. This stopped the first delve invasion. The disbanding itself wasn’t what broke them, it was that it also reset the system indexes making cyno jammers impossible.
So while a lot of work went into finishing the job, it was the disbanding and the resulting removal of cyno jammers that made it possible.
All that said, this is still a shit article full of inaccuracies written and apparently proofread by someone who obviously wasn’t there for any of it.
History is written by the winners. Keep that in mind. Whether or not this recounting is fair, true or factual, or even important ten years down the line, is wholly irrelevant. Same with your quotes. The alternate viewpoint you present on the disbanding of BoB is just that – an alternate viewpoint. It means nothing. It is nothing. You have your way of thinking, the INN staff has theirs.
Coming on to INN to shout about the version of events you believe to be correct – honestly where did you think this would get you? You come off as angry, like you’re holding onto some lingering, festering resentment because what you think is true isn’t more widely accepted – which then boils over on The Mittani. The something-to-prove attitude you project is not only easy to provoke, but it’s easy to dismantle. And that’s, predictably, what has happened here.
In essence, all you’re saying is “I’M right and YOU’RE wrong because I READ some quotes and know some people that SAY SOMETHING DIFFERENT than what you’re saying”. You may feel that your cause is noble, and that by presenting your side you’ll open up some of the ‘kool-aid drinkers’ eyes. That, of corse, is pure hubris. Literally no one is going to read a few short paragraphs and go “oh well since you put it that way, I’m going to completely reform my ideology about something I believe strongly in, abandon my leadership, and convert to your point of view”. So really, what are you doing here – aside from making yourself an easy target? It’ll take more, far more, to shake the foundations of the Imperium.
Bottom line: if you’re going to purposefully wander into enemy territory, at least come prepared.
And I did. I presented Mitten’s own quote from 2009 that places Tamir Lenk as the one doing the work for this to happen. Fast forward to 2011 and suddenly Mittens says. “I, uh, disbanded them.” But I’m angry because…I’m presenting the truth? These are non-arguments. Essentially you could have just written “lol u mad” and made the same point.
-yaaaaawn- Since reading comprehension isn’t you’re strong suit, I’ll explain this again.
Let’s take this from the top:
1) You came on INN to promote the idea that The Mittani’s involvement with the disbanding of BoB is less than what you felt the article stated it was, which, again, shows your low reading comprehension skills, and less than what you feel the overall public narrative of the event has suggested.
2) To back this POV, you came armed with a few quotes and an article written by yourself.
3) You’ve taken this stance in reaction to an article that does not promote The Mittani as the central figure in the disbanding of BoB, but instead attributes the downfall to the actions of Agamar, and rightfully so.
3) My point, which you spectacularly failed at grasping, is this: what exactly are you trying to accomplish?
We’re all extremely impressed that you managed to sift through the ashes of our enemies and find a different opinion. Really. And we’re all equally impressed that you’ve found a way to twist a straightforward, well-written article that factually recounts the series of events that led to BoB’s disbanding into yet another sound and fury platform to further your own, personal grudge against The Mittani. There’s no correlation, however, between the article and that heavy chip on your shoulder. The article absolutely does not, in any way, suggest that BoB’s obliteration was due to the sole efforts of The Mittani, or that he is trying to claim a heavier hand in the event than he had, as you have suggested. In fact, if you’d actually read the piece, you’d see that The Mittani’s involvement comes in a footnote. What’s unfortunate is that I’m not the only person on this thread that has pointed this out to you.
So – why are you here? What are you trying to prove? That The Mittani wasn’t the central figure in BoB’s disbanding? Everyone already knows it was a group effort. The article you’re trying to attack repeatedly states that it was Agamar, not The Mittani, that ultimately took BoB down. Pointing to a single quote – “MT: I, uh, disbanded them” – does not override the decade’s worth of statements made by The Mittani where he gives credit where credit is due. Your negative feelings towards The Mittani do not alter the truth, one that no one is denying – that Agamar was introduced to The Mittani by Tamir Lenk, that Agamar pulled the trigger on the disbanding, that The Mittani was involved in this moment, and that the disbanding had a direct impact on the fate of the war. You not liking these facts, or The Mittani, has no impact and changes nothing.
More than that, why would you come on to INN to promote your personal vendetta against The Mittani? The only thing you’re doing is proving what everyone here already thinks about you: that you’re just another unstable, attention seeking, envious nobody that gets off on being publicly beaten down. You have no power. You have no defendable points to make. You have nothing.
We do thank you for, once again, showing us just how mentally toothless you really are. It has been an enjoyable experience watching you try to go toe to toe with greater minds only to fail every single time.
Go ahead and respond to this and prove just how much of an attention sucking leech you actually are though. Please.
I just think it’s fascinating how the origin of the power of some people is based in myth not unlike the real world. Has nothing to do with “hate” or whatever delusional autism riddled brain believes. lol at claiming you “beat down” anyone. And “if u reply u only want attentionzzz !!11!11!”
As Innominate states in the comment section: “All that said, this is still a shit article full of inaccuracies written and apparently proofread by someone who obviously wasn’t there for any of it.”
“attention sucking leech” status confirmed? I think we all know the answer to that.
#9
You are positively obsessed with me it would seem. You have written more articles and posts where I am at least mentioned probably more than any other subject in Eve.
You claim to be able to know how someone is feeling from miles away like some psychic snake-oil huckster. Or to know about their physical characteristics. I am just waiting for you to ask for pics so that you have something more concrete with which to satisfy your fantasies. “Prove you are not a fat neck beard by sending me pics”.
The intellect you have is spent on self promotion and bashing of others in order to prove some sort of superiority. All the time in denial of your true nature as that would be too painful to bear. Meanwhile the rest of the world moves on and the fame and success you seem to clamour slips through your fingers. Your blog site falls further into irrelevance under your guidance. Perhaps if you were to direct your efforts in a more positive direction, you would not find yourself trying to win points on comments, that are unlikely to ever be read, on the website of those you consider to be your enemies.
I do thank you though for your comments as it is a great way to show others your nature on a website that is actually read.
Seraph’s intent is far from noble. He has a history of self promotion in order to make himself more relevant than he actually is. Riding the coat tails of others at every opportunity. Discarding people who he calls “friends” as suiting his immediate short term needs.
Constantly he will use simple tricks to claim some sort of victory. Never happy unless he has the last word. For all the words he has written I have yet to ever see him admit error in a notable fashion. He relies on people not being bothered to put in work to disprove his nonsense. A tried and tested tactic of the politician.
Isn’t that glorious in a way though? That Seraph is so predictable? Personally I find those that adhere to such unthinking patterns amusing.
Well it certainly makes things easier for me :-).
It’s baffling how delusional you are.
#4
You take snippets of conversations and misrepresent them in order to support your own agenda. Pretty sure that makes you a liar. This stuff about Mittens apparently rewriting history is proof of that. Out of all the words written about the fall of BoB and the numerous times Mittens has relayed the story acknowledging the efforts of others, you take a small quip and try to turn it into a narrative that you think is beneficial to you. You are obsessed with Goons, Mittens and of course me. No reasonable person would try to push the weak arguments that you do with such fervour. I mean if you actually have evidence of what you say then it would be easy to present. You have claimed I am an autistic, racist homophobe and based all of that on your own interpretation of a glib comment that was open to a different interpretation. To my mind, your interpretation is very much more a reflection of you than it is of me. All the time you try to make yourself more impressive than you are. Constantly leaching off the names of others. Meanwhile I have to fight to keep your comments in place as they are a wonderful demonstration of the type of person you are. So I look forward to the next round of comments you make where you add nothing aside from further eroding any remaining reputation you think you have.
Just dropping this against your comments now as it seems to cover all the bases pretty much. Unless you actually have something substantial to add then expect to see this a lot.
I didn’t call you autistic. I asked if you were. And you brought up black cocks up people’s asses. People can make their own assessment what that means.
#5 – *yawn*
You take snippets of conversations and misrepresent them in order to support your own agenda. Pretty sure that makes you a liar. This stuff about Mittens apparently rewriting history is proof of that. Out of all the words written about the fall of BoB and the numerous times Mittens has relayed the story acknowledging the efforts of others, you take a small quip and try to turn it into a narrative that you think is beneficial to you. You are obsessed with Goons, Mittens and of course me. No reasonable person would try to push the weak arguments that you do with such fervour. I mean if you actually have evidence of what you say then it would be easy to present. You have claimed I am an autistic, racist homophobe and based all of that on your own interpretation of a glib comment that was open to a different interpretation. To my mind, your interpretation is very much more a reflection of you than it is of me. All the time you try to make yourself more impressive than you are. Constantly leaching off the names of others. Meanwhile I have to fight to keep your comments in place as they are a wonderful demonstration of the type of person you are. So I look forward to the next round of comments you make where you add nothing aside from further eroding any remaining reputation you think you have.
Just dropping this against your comments now as it seems to cover all the bases pretty much. Unless you actually have something substantial to add then expect to see this a lot.
You forget to mention perhaps the most entertaining aspect of BoB…the Max wars. Or the seige of the NPC staion in Pr. Good times all
All history is a simplification. If it wasn’t, it would take as long to tell the history as it did to live the events.
The article could include every detail that every reader deemed important to the telling, but it would have been ten to twenty times longer, and some of the details that seem important to one person would be considered irrelevant fluff by others.
It’s not just the simplification. It’s basically the Stalin treatment regarding falsifying history. The article with the picture of mittens as if he was some central power broker in the situation is false. The fact that he’s mentioned over Temir for example who was the one approached by Haargoth. Mittens actually wrote extensively about the conflict that followed this whole event. He even admits that everything was reversed when BoB corps merged into Kenzoku. And that the conflict ultimately resulted in Goons retreating to Syndicate once kart disbanded the alliance supposedly due to unpaid sovereignty bills. IT Alliance retook it’s space and would later mergr/form the current NCdot. Just like Goonfleet would make goonswarm Federation.
I don’t think anyone is implying that Haargoth disbanded BoB and that was the end of everything. We’re all aware that a lot of heavy lifting was done between then and the time Kenzoku finally folded in June.
However, the ten-year anniversary of the disbanding is this week, which is why the article covered that event and not what came after.
But that’s exactly what the implication is. Look at the article itself with the headline under the section “annihilation.” What does “annihilation” mean? And paragraph goes on to describe the resistance of BoB as a “feeble gesture” despite the fact that the conflict that followed took several months and went back and forth. And despite the fact that they reformed under IT Alliance taking the west while Goons were disbanded and sovless in NPC space. The article isn’t just simplified, it’s grossly inaccurate and paints a history that did not occur.
Look at the literal title of the article. “Tenth Anniversary.” Of what?
The last section of the article titled annihilation.
“complete destruction or obliteration.”
Does the BoB name/brand exist within Eve any more? One could say that it has been annihilated.
I’m sure with your level of fanaticism and mental gymnastics you could say a lot of things.
I only went with a dictionary definition of the word. And the answer to the question I posed was a resounding “no”. Yet you accuse me of fanaticism and mental gymnastics. Quite amusing to say the least.
By that very same standard goons don’t exist anymore either. They had to reform under another Alliance name called goonswarm Federation
So you lost the point and change the subject to something else. What a surprise! – lol
I’m simply showing the hypocrisy of your statement. And your friend further up the conversation chain is actually making the argument that no one claimed Bob was destroyed. So you’re in contradiction with your own people.
They can think what they want as far as I am concerned.
But at this time you have not given any validity to your own initial arguments. You simply duck off to other topics as you see fit. Try to stay on point here dear.
What initial arguments did I duck away from?
Just read up on your own diatribe. Long gone are the days where I will try to explain things to you. You are simply a poor attempt of an internet troll who delights in lying and trying to cause harm to others.
Nice dodge. Typical as always.
Not dodging a thing here. I did not dive in with quotes from enemies of The Imperium during The Casino War 8 years after an event. You were asked to back up stuff and so far you have failed. As I have already said many times now, back up your statements with some evidence. How hard can that be if you are as informed as you claim to be?
Already posted sources:
Anyway speaking of the sources, have you looked at these “14 sources?” You keep bringing them up like they back your argument yet most of them say nothing of what I’m addressing. For example:
https://eve.fandom.com/wiki…
This is a fandom wiki about Band of Brothers. Doesn’t add anything. Another link: https://www.engadget.com/20…
This one talks about how Goonswarm got disbanded. Doesn’t talk about what we’re discussing.
This link: https://www.rockpapershotgu…
Talks about a Titan dying. Not about Mitten’s supposed massive role in the Haargoth affair.
This link: https://www.eveonline.com/a… Talks about a titan dying offline. Again nothing about what we’re discussing.
So what “14 sources” are you using to back your argument and disagree with DJ?
Oh wait…hold on…let’s look here: https://www.gameskinny.com/…
Well well well look at that. From the article: “A Goonswarm recruiter called Tamir Lenk was using the recruitment channel to find marks to scam (with his neutral alt character), where he targeted a miner called Harkani. Mid-scam, Tamir Lenk had a change of heart and recruited Harkani, only for the new recruit to confess a day later that he was actually Haargoth Agamar, a director of Band of Brothers member corporation Black Nova Corp, and someone who had access to everything Band of Brothers had to offer, including the “disband alliance” button.”
Like DJ says Tamir Lenk was the guy who found Haargoth. And if you click the link in this very same article…what does Mitten’s say?
The Mittani
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation Posted – 2009.02.05 23:34:00 – [8]
tamir lenk: one humble goon scammer topples an empire~~
At the time he even recognizes Temir Lenk as the man of the hour here. Hmm maybe DJ wasn’t saying anything contradictory because this Mittens myth only developed later.
By 2011 what does Mittens say?
https://www.rockpapershotgu…
RPS: So what happened to Band of Brothers?
MT: I, uh, disbanded them.
Suddenly it’s not Tamir Lenk who “topples an empire.” Suddenly Mittens claims he “uh” disbanded them. Doesn’t even MENTION Tamir Lenk once. Quite a change in tune. Quite a transformation wouldn’t you say?
GG
EZ
With your own source nonetheless.
You made a comment here with quotes from DJ and Mr Rive. Quotes from 8 years after an event while their hostile intent to The Imperium was all too evident. The intention was to dismiss Mittens as having anything to do with the disbanding of BoB. This was your position that you have failed to back up in anyway what so ever.
“The Mittani sends his regards”.
Actually the quote I just gave you showed Mittens go from “Tamir Lenk destroyed BoB” to two years later changing to “I, uh, disbanded BoB.”
#2
You take snippets of conversations and misrepresent them in order to support your own agenda. Pretty sure that makes you a liar. This stuff about Mittens apparently rewriting history is proof of that. Out of all the words written about the fall of BoB and the numerous times Mittens has relayed the story acknowledging the efforts of others, you take a small quip and try to turn it into a narrative that you think is beneficial to you. You are obsessed with Goons, Mittens and of course me. No reasonable person would try to push the weak arguments that you do with such fervour. I mean if you actually have evidence of what you say then it would be easy to present. You have claimed I am an autistic, racist homophobe and based all of that on your own interpretation of a glib comment that was open to a different interpretation. To my mind, your interpretation is very much more a reflection of you than it is of me. All the time you try to make yourself more impressive than you are. Constantly leaching off the names of others. Meanwhile I have to fight to keep your comments in place as they are a wonderful demonstration of the type of person you are. So I look forward to the next round of comments you make where you add nothing aside from further eroding any remaining reputation you think you have.
Just dropping this against your comments now as it seems to cover all the bases pretty much. Unless you actually have something substantial to add then expect to see this a lot.
You certainly like semantic games, don’t you? Do you seriously assert that BoB losing its entire sovereignty, all corporations, all members, access to all assets in outposts, and ability to use its jump bridge network could not reasonably be called “annihilation” while still recognizing that it took several more months for literally every remaining BoB structure to be destroyed? Ridiculous.
You forget to add that old BoB were too scared to re-use their name. They could have gone with something like “BoBdot” but for some reason decided not too.
Goons however never had such an issue with their brand.
If you want to assert that they were afraid that is for you to provide proof of. I really couldn’t care less. You keep attacking this discussion is if I’m somehow defending Bob. it’s like impossible for you to Fathom that someone can have a position separate from some kind of Alliance narrative
You made some statements that have been shown to be wrong. You have ignored all the sage comments that have shown where you are wrong.
Look back to your initial comments and actually fight that argument rather than go off on twisted tangents. If you actually had any real point to make then it would be the simplest of things to do.
My claim was that the story presented by mittens and this website either omits or falsifies events. Nobody has proven otherwise.
Nothing was shown to be wrong. All you have done is attack my personal character and attacked DJ. That’s not showing anybody to be wrong
Moravia had a problem with me pointing out you claimed Bob was annihilated. I simply said that they reformed. Not sure what your disagreement is about
This is the intellectual equivalent of the old dorm-room philosophy debate: “Is a stool a chair?”
The end is nigh. While it is now plain for all to see that Goonswarm are ‘alliance killers’ EVE has its most horrifying story yet to unfold. The downfall of Goonswarm. Perhaps as the article suggests what happened to BoB a similar fate awaits Goons. Keep looking over your shoulders.
Trust me, we look over every shoulder plenty.
I think this is a good presentation of the events that took place and speaks to the thoughts that are on many a players minds for sure. It was sad to see BOB fall…but it was also sad to see CO2 fall. I blame all of you….all of you players that just spend your entire game fucking each other over and fighting over nothing. Absolutlu fucking NOTHING!
These are the reasons you cannot and will never achieve the things ‘The Goons’ have. Let me be perfectly clear…i have NO..love for the goon leadership….cocksuckers every one of them….it was the guys on the ground…the minions…the Bees proper that took these victories. The goons never place the praise where it belongs, and to some degree its where i have to ask you Mooney to ALWAYS remember the guys that actually do the work.
IF you people would just once, band together…get a strategy and some momentum, then maybe…maybe you are ready to take on the goons. Fight them large scale on many fronts….would be my advice…and press….firmly.
There are thousands of people that want to see the ‘imperium’ fall…..of course and for all kinds of reasons. Buy until YOU FUCKWITS get your shit in order…all you are doing is creating content and presenting usable ‘distractions’ which allows the goons to embed themselves further.
Apart from that Moonmin…as always you do a good job at presenting the facts, albeit slightly one sided my friend. 🙂
Ah, but the method of both of The Swarm’s noteworthy victories undermines your suggestion that the rest of us just need to “band together”.
BOB and CO2 were both destroyed by traitors from within, more than the pressure from without.
Without a traitor-in-place ready to radically disrupt The Goonswarm, it’s questionable if the rest of the game combined could raise enough pressure to crack Delve open now, given the economic disparity in play.
And with “leaders” (*cough* *hack *cough* *vomit*) like Gobbins involved, “the rest of us” aren’t much threat of uniting.
well…demand more from the people you are playing with..and leading. It is your game after all. Test, Brave, Panfam, etc…are all stuck in the same place. Alliances filled with people just happy to rat and mine and do adm,s and this and that and fuck knows what else, when in all this time…there is a BIG ASSED ELEPHANT in the room. No one wants to win…regardless of the talk. Everyone complains yet does nothing. Everyone heaves on Alex…and he just keeps taking trophies..because Eve is truely filled with wanna, coulda, shoulda. Although you have to give it to ‘The Initiative’, for picking the game up and playing it lately. More power to them. One has to ask though, could they achieve this stuff on their own? Without being a Goon Bum Chum? I honestly believe they are in the same spot as Bastion and co. the wanna be, hide behind the goony types.
Anyways.i digress.
This piece was written by Guilford Australis. They researched the piece on publicly available resources. Its intent is simply to remark on a point in our collective history 10 years on and to give a flavour of events. To relay all the finer points would need a book or two.
My numerous comments here are simply to stop someone, who has a vested interest in morphing history, from making things up. At least they have not written themselves into the story, yet.
But thank you for your kind words. I always try to represent things as best as I can and I never hide any bias I may have. I even go so far to admit error on my part should it happen. Something others could learn from I am sure ;-).
[…] Agamar was the player who, close to 12 years ago now, disbanded Band of Brothers back during the Great War, one of the great moments in EVE Online. World War Bee has brought back […]
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