Raindancing, Demigods and A Conspicious Lack of Vision: CSM Summit Minutes Released


CCP have released the Summit Minutes of CSM 14. Weighing in at around 70 pages, it details most of the 20+ Sessions that pertained between 2-5 September in Iceland. This opinionated bullet-pointed summary details some of the key points of the minutes, even though you might want to consider reading it in its entirety, or listening to the reading on TIS.

Eve Online: Vision And Future

  • Monthly Average Users is higher than Daily Average Users. The criterion is for 10 minutes of activity to register. CCP claims that this points to issues in new player retention. INN adds that this might be due to skill-plans and extraction skill farms.
  • One of the main concerns is for returning players to be able to find the launcher.
  • The four main points for CCP in their vision are “Stop the bleeding”, “Fix the stupid”, “Excite and teach”, “Incentivice return”. 
  • CCP considers corporations and social groups to exist mostly out of the game, as a response to a concern brought that corporations are not mentioned in the New Player Experience.
  • No other clear vision is articulated.
  • CCP Mannbjörn is present in this meeting.


  • Drifter attacks were launched badly, CCP admits. In general, CCP believe more NPC attacks should happen.
  • Data about the blackout is just being received, but either way is too muddy to comment on because there were many simultaneous events happening.
  • There is no data on what CCP consider a healthy amount of people in null-sec, but there is no data on this, CCP has just started collecting data.

Ship Balance and Chaos Era

  • CCP have been surprised by the Chaos Era, but “the design department is getting on top of this as soon as possible”.
  • The Chaos Era has had KPIs, but the number of changes implemented makes it unclear whether those KPIs have been achieved.
  • Timezone tanking is considered a content killer.
  • The CSM consider offensive structure spam to be more problematic than defensive structure spam.
  • The CSM and CCP discuss removing logistics ships in parts of nullsec, but not really.


  • Wormholers’ CSM considers nullsec PVE to be among the safest activities in the game.
  • Wormhole PvE is estimated to bring in between 1.2 bn ISK/hr and 2 bn ISK/hr.
  • Most fights currently happening in wormhole space are consensual.

API Session

  • ESI goals are: Balance towards being a content catalyst, accessibility for non-programmers, reducing management overhead.
  • ESI issues to be avoided are: Never lie, avoid undermining core game-play.

Eve Economy

  • No meaningful discussion about the economy occurs.
  • As an aside, CCP revealed that they classify players as high-sec, null-sec, or wormhole players based on where they spend most of their activity, by which we learned that Aryth, Merkelchen and Innominate are mainly highsec players, while alleged nullsec FC Vily is, in fact, a wormholer, btw. Olmeca Gold is a main nullsec player.

Triglavian Invasion and Live Events

  • Various points were addressed, none of which were of significant note.

Player Experience Improvements For Newbies

  • CCP are considering work on improving the overview.
  • YouTube videos are worked on.
  • Players who join a corp and have a support network around them are more likely to remain in the game.

Ship Index

  • Ship Indexes are meant to be an easy way for new players to identify ship strengths and weaknesses.
  • An index should feature statistics similar to the control bars in the EVE Alliance Tournament.
  • The index is meant to be data to balance ships internally, but should be exposed to players.
  • CSM Aryth considers why they do not pull kill reports to determine what ships are used for. CCP hope to start using this data-driven approach.

Play-style Diversity in Eve

  • A valid play-style is considered to be such if it: Has a play, has a counter-play, does not make players leave the game, is relatively rewarding.
  • CSM argue that there is no public visions, which makes it difficult to make plans. CCP do not respond.
  • CSM Innominate argues that the way blackout has fixed the Monthly Economic Report is “like going to chemotherapy to deal with a sinus infection”.
  • The CSM argue repeatedly that the bigger issue in EVE is that there is no hope, no road map, and no sign of a plan.

CCP Hellmar AMA

  • Confusing graphs that make no sense and want to move new players from anxiety to apathy, and veteran players from bored apathy towards bored anxiety. 
  • CCP Hellmar dodges a question about his opinion on the blackout, in spite of earlier enthusiastic support for the blackout.
  • CCP Hellmar claims that the vision is an idea of “procedureal generated resources” that would “cause conflict and shakeup in the game”.
  • CCP Hellmar dives into a metaphor of rain dancing, in which he gets basic anthropology wrong.

(It really is that bad)

Team Security

  • Team security does not understand whether smart-bombing battleships, supercarriers and titans are bottable, despite killing alleged botting supers and titans during the GM Week “whack-a-bot” event.
  • CCP wish to push 2FA to as many people as possible.
  • Team Security asks about how ESI can be abused by botters.

Player Experience

  • CCP Falcon and CCP Ender are concerned that the CSM reports that CCP members are worried to play the game for breaking CCP rules.
  • CSM Aryth suggests that players should have the option to disable skill extraction on their characters.

Community Support

  • CCP are not sure whether they will ever bring back the Alliance Tournament, as it is a passion project, but individual members of CCP would really like to see it return.

Art of Eve Online

  • CCP shows some art, lost in the text-based nature of those minutes.

VFX Feedback

  • The CSM asks CCP to create low-shader quality versions of Titan and CovOps bridges, as they cannot be seen on “potato mode”.

Audio Feedback

  • Allegedly people play EVE with sound.

Shareable Bookmarks

  • CCP solicits feedback on the new bookmark system, where bookmarks are a shared resource with an ACL system.

Marketing Team

  • Some discussion about Marketing endeavors.
  • Login campaigns are under discussion with regard to frequency (either more, or less frequent).

Character Creator

  • The plan is for all new players to start in the same system.
  • Empire selection is considered an area to be simplified.

Eve Portal

  • CSM wish for PI, Industry and Market to be included into the EVE Portal App.
  • One of the few positive sessions

Overall, the minutes seem fairly bleak and point towards an uncertain future for EVE Online. The feedback from CSM so far seems to be unusually subdued, even by ardent proponents outside of blocs. There will be more detailed opinion pieces coming over the next few days, addressing some further specifics.

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  • Guilford Australis

    I haven’t parsed these minutes yet, but this summary suggests to me that there is a fundamental disconnect between what the average player sees as EVE’s problems and what CCP sees as EVE’s problems.

    Not that it’s unreasonable for the developers to have a different perspective than players. But CCP seems to scapegoat very narrow and particular features of the game for problems that are actually larger and more general to the game’s design.

    September 28, 2019 at 12:22 AM
  • Erick Asmock

    I think you assessment is spot on with what I read into the minutes. The Helmar section was particularly concerning.

    September 28, 2019 at 12:27 PM
  • George Ewing

    Hopefully no opinion pieces. Opinions are a dime a dozen in Eve. How about some data?

    September 28, 2019 at 12:30 PM
  • Garreth Vlox

    I figured it would be bad after the last few months but holy fuck, this list of bullet points “CCP Hellmar AMA” reads like a list of reasons CCP owners should clean house of all the upper management and essentially start over. That and CCP somehow having no useful data on anything despite running the game for 16 years is fucking mind boggling.

    September 28, 2019 at 7:24 PM
  • General Thade

    As a wormholer I just want to clear it up with the readers that the wormhole PVE isk/hr is slightly inaccurate. Those numbers are for C5 space only and the 1.2bil/hr is for a fleet of subcaps. More accurate numbers would be 300-400mil/hr per person for subcaps and 800-1200mil/hr per person for dreadnoughts. It is also burst isk so the sites run out. The isk/hr can increase/decrease based on class and effect, but C5 sites are the second best in wormhole space and most of wormhole space does not run those sites and makes that kind of isk.

    September 29, 2019 at 1:02 AM
    • Garreth Vlox General Thade

      So its still massively more per person then is capable in nullsec with drastically less risk. IE no cyno or super super/titan/dread bomb threat threat, with the added benefit of being able to roll your hole closed for several hours at a time.

      September 29, 2019 at 1:43 AM
      • General Thade Garreth Vlox

        Yes and no. You lose the safety of your super umbrellas, massive numbers to defend against attackers, Intel channels multiple jumps out, and the other upsides of null when you ratt in wormhole space. Yes, you can roll and be relatively safe, but there is still a threat of people rolling into you while you are ratting, random connections that spawn while you are ratting, and the occasional eviction that wipes your system clean of any assets (asset safety doesn’t exist). On top of this, the isk your earn isn’t automatically inserted into your account, you get blue loot where you have to haul it to highsec, adding another step that you could lose it all.

        So yes, we have much more risk, but that doesn’t make it balanced. I feel like nullsec has a worse risk/isk problem then wormhole space, but EVE needs to be less safe in general and all areas need to be looked at to see how more things can die.

        September 29, 2019 at 2:20 AM
        • Garreth Vlox General Thade

          You don’t need a super umbrella nearly as much when there is no chance of a super/titan/dread bomb happening. And unlike nullsec you can actually close all the doors to your space and keep eyes open for them being reopened.

          September 29, 2019 at 9:36 AM
          • General Thade Garreth Vlox

            You can do that in null, it’s called gate camping. Also, an enemy can’t randomly open another gate to your system without someone already being in there, on top of this random gates don’t spawn everywhere. Remember that we cannot constantly farm the sites, they run out and take weeks to re-spawn unlike null where you have infinite daily resources. You can also scale to infinity in null, where at a certain point in wormhole space it becomes pointless. Your isk/hr metric is a measurement tool on how fast you can harvest infinite resources, while for us it’s how fast we can farm so we don’t have to spend the rest of our month farming. A more accurate measurement for us would be isk/month.

            So please, stop acting like wormhole space is so broken. All of the game is broken and more stuff needs to die, but null has a way worse problem. When you have infinite resources and a pretty safe environment that generates 20 rorq mining fleets then you are going to damage the economy more than a few wormholers making burst isk.

            September 29, 2019 at 4:06 PM
          • Garreth Vlox General Thade

            gate camping takes a fleet of people being on constant watch. You can roll the holes and watch for new ones as a multiboxer without issue, horrific comparison.

            September 29, 2019 at 11:21 PM
          • General Thade Garreth Vlox

            Okay, and you can watch local, Intel channels and dcsan. Your really not disproving my point and not helping yours. This argument is going in circles mate

            September 29, 2019 at 11:24 PM
          • Garreth Vlox General Thade

            but solo camping is not nearly effective as solo hole rolling… the only circles here you sounding like a broken record. WH space is dangerous because you said so, because you said so.

            September 30, 2019 at 3:27 AM
          • Gatecamping does nothing to stop gangs from entering your space via wormholes or cynos. Even if we disregard the ineffectiveness of gatecamps, the amount man-hours needed to secure all the gates would be absurd. Just keeping 10 dudes guarding each of the regional gates and gates adjacent to NPC space in Delve, 24/7, would require 58400 man-hours per month, all for the privilege of making less money with more risk than wormholes.
            Meanwhile, dualboxing subcaps in a highclass wormhole brings in 1.2 bil per hour with near 100% safety as long as the pilot follows proper procedure and doesn’t disconnect. Aside from you I have yet to see anyone challenging these numbers.

            Where did you get the idea that nullsec anoms are infinite? Each fully upgraded system has only a handful of usable anoms and those don’t respawn immediately. Even if you had infinite sites like missions do there are only so many hours in the day. A wormholer who wants additional sites can get more farmholes, not unlike how nullsec operates.

            That blurb amount 20 rorqs is just nonsense. For starters its too much for all but the most ardent crabs and the money earned isn’t spectacular considering the investment costs and risk. The only thing rorqs directly influence is the price of minerals, which have been lower in the past and the Eve economy hummed along just fine.

            The isk/hour generated in highclass wormholes is absurdly high given the minimal risk and startup costs. Slashing blue loot by 50% would bring it more in line with the rest of Eve and reduce the isk faucet to boot.

            September 29, 2019 at 11:55 PM
          • Uhhhh, you, too, can gatecamp: only you only have to camp… two gates? Ever?

            September 30, 2019 at 12:55 AM
          • So you’re making the same money we are, but with way fewer hours invested and lots more free time… and you’re arguing this is a negative aspect of WH play?

            September 30, 2019 at 1:02 AM
    • So basically you “risk” 3B isk dreads to make about a billion isk per hour in a dead-end hole that you can close the entrances to whenever you want, but it’s not OK for me to do open-world PvE in a Rorqual that costs 6B isk (much of which is invested in incredibly slow and fragile drones) and returns a couple of hundred million per hour because :reasons:?

      September 29, 2019 at 3:24 AM
      • General Thade Ganthrithor

        Read my response to Garreth Vlox before you complain. I just explained why it isn’t as OP as it seems.

        September 29, 2019 at 3:37 AM
        • Garreth Vlox General Thade

          You didn’t though. The risk in WH space is LOWER then nullsec given the cyno, super/titan/dread bomb restrictions and the ability to roll holes. You’re still making 4-10 times an hour what the average nullsec player can make with DRASTICALLY lower and more importantly CONTROLLABLE risk that goes hand in hand with LESS money up front, because the ships you are running those sits in cost less then the rorqs nullsec players are using and about the same as the carrier as we are using yet you make a lot more money for that same initial investment. That is absolutely OP.

          September 29, 2019 at 9:38 AM
          • Aderoth Anstian Garreth Vlox

            He addressed why wormhole pve is not stupid OP in a few ways but the most important is: Scarcity in anomalies means that it takes maybe 2 hours to clear them then wait another week before having enough to do it again. Isk/hr as a metric for wealth creation in wormholes is bad. Using isk/hr to then compare wormhole pve to NS pve is doubly bad.

            September 29, 2019 at 3:45 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Aderoth Anstian

            And is those 2 hours he is making what I used to make in a week of krabbing 1-2 hours a day.

            September 29, 2019 at 11:20 PM
          • The most valuable resource in the game is a player’s time, so being able to make a shitload of money in a short time period and then fuck off to do other things for the rest of the week is massively superior to having to grind for hours and hours every day in order to make the same monthly income. But thanks for playing?

            September 30, 2019 at 12:59 AM
          • Aderoth Anstian Ganthrithor

            I can’t disagree with this. It’s one of the reasons I like living in wormhole space. It’s not OP though. That is a single pilot in a dread running those anoms. So either 1 player gets those anoms or you group in subcaps which brings down the isk/hr dramatically. 10 havens a day is 300 mil making 2.1 bil a week. Easily done in 2 hours each day.

            September 30, 2019 at 1:53 PM
  • Yikes.

    September 29, 2019 at 3:22 AM
    • Garreth Vlox Ganthrithor

      yep, my money is staying with me until hilmar is gone and an actual road map has been laid out and commited too. Based on the last few interviews Hilmeth has done and what the CSM has released given their discussions involving him there is no way this moron can be trusted to not shit the game up at some random time with no warning.

      September 29, 2019 at 9:35 AM
      • Raven2019 Garreth Vlox

        Right now it proves this entire csm/CCP coalition has just served as a pr tool commonly used to hook folks into thinking your opinion really matters or feedback is taken..they are full on full of shit…all bullshit because simply put after 15 fucking yrs they still haven’t figured out what makes eve tic, breath, idiots now don’t even know the exact fucking numbers of who exist in null sec after blatant previous news bites that they have the info..damn do these dudes burn the report in the middle of the night or some shit??. excuses, excuses , excuses pathetic all of them are.. making sure to never send another dime their way ever again..seagull had vision, so did greyscale, but the fozzbit fuckboys killed your sandbox….lol losers

        September 29, 2019 at 9:21 PM
        • I don’t really like pointing fingers at individual devs since I’m sure it’s not like any of them have ultimate creative control over anything, but it does feel like almost everything since Soundwave left and they hired Fozzie and Rise has been for the worse. I remembered taking issue with some of Greyscale’s individual ideas (wasn’t he behind the original space-AIDS mechanic?), but the man had the right idea when it came to the basic philosophical nature of EVE.

          September 30, 2019 at 12:52 AM
  • Raven2019

    You dudes have been so in denial about Eve’s direction and vision for the past 3 yrs knowing just the amount of fuckery they have released, no vision, no roadmap, no plans, and dodging obvious questions because they’re just like Jon snow…. they know nothing…CCP sucked up cash and coke off of Plex sales, used citadel housing just to influence more pay to win schemes, more scandels and cheaters than ever before still exist…they haven’t fixed shit, this continues to go on cause it’s job security. Eve online, the number one mmo that can’t even beat its own records…. everyone is saying pls take my stuff cause you are sure as hell not worth a damn dime of my money….ghost of greyscale strikes hard and fast doesn’t it…muahahhahahaa

    September 29, 2019 at 7:40 PM