Lord of the Space Flies

Kael Decadence 2017-08-09

Recently, on The Mind Clash Podcast I had a slight rant regarding content generation in EVE Online where I threw shade on the idea that CCP requires its customers to be responsible for the fidelity of its product. Essentially I grumbled about the idea that if I wanted to have content in the game that “I had to find it” and that it wasn’t “my job” to make the game enjoyable when the developer should be providing me with the content. The conversation of course then led to talk regarding it being hard to FC and that sometimes other people had to take the reins and try their hand at taking a fleet out, yet that wasn’t really where I was going with the question.

I also read a comment thread on the EVE subreddit asking “What have YOU done lately to find content, which I thought might give me some pause to that train of thought and give me a chance to reflect on my comment. Getting past the title of the thread I was able to quickly assess this was not the case. My feelings on the matter did not falter and I would like to take a few minutes to explain why.

Make Your Own Dang Fun!

Imagine, if you will, a once in a lifetime trip to an amazing beach resort that you had been saving up for years to go to. Setting money aside for it every month, training and getting your body in shape to impress a potential mate, watching all kinds of YouTube videos about the place to learn everything you could about what people do there, and then the day finally comes. You step off the plane and enter the Villa to find the desk person playing on his phone and completely ignoring you as you ask for some help checking in. Once he finally realizes that you and a dozen other guests are standing in line yelling “Hey can I get some help here?!?!” you finally get checked in.

Once in your room, you see that you have to make your own bed and more than likely have to wash the linen from the previous guest. Once you’ve created your guests quarters you head down to the beach hoping to catch some of the fun action you have been reading about and watching videos on, like concerts with fun and sexy people dancing all over the place, bars filled to the brim with cheap and boozy drinks, and people every where trying to have fun. All this while the resort staff fires swag from t-shirt cannons and keeps the stage filled with all the latest artists and performers. Yet you walk onto the sand to find a bunch of fat old dudes sizzling in the sun and drunk in their fancy hammocks, not letting you have a single drop of the brew they made themselves. Groups of misfits are fighting each other over the ownership of a sand castle that was once built by someone long forgotten.

Seeing that this is not the place you thought it was, you decide to head back inside when you are abruptly jumped by five guys in armored suits and tossed through the doors naked, afraid, and alone. Crawling back to your quarters you find that the room has been traded to a new owner and you don’t have access to any of it. Now you must head back out into the wildness of the resort to hunt and gather to create your own clothes, the kitchens are unmanned by staff so you have to hunt and cook your own food, and you now have to spend months or even years learning the skills you need just to survive.

Like Click Bait, But Worse

This likely doesn’t sound like a situation that you would want to find yourself in, yet this is exactly what EVE Online is. A resort where the owners created an awesome destination, made some really cool publicity videos and photos with guests who had a really good time for the first few years, then they just left only to return once and in a while to put some fresh paint on the walls and restock the pantry. To be fair, the owners go to the resort a few times a year to install new equipment and features, but with no instructions and ignore customer complaints for years about things being broken and unusable.

At this point, I am certain that I have ruffled enough feathers to create a feather soft bed fit for The Space Pope himself. I know and understand that EVE Online is meant to be a sandbox/playground style game where users are free to do as they please, creating castles and knocking down others or really any activity in between. In fact, I would never dream of taking any of that away from the game. What I am suggesting though is that CCP takes a good look at the continued sustainability of the model it currently operates under, evaluates whether this is a system that could continue to be enjoyable for the next decade, and then implement changes that would continue to entertain current and future gamers for many years. As it stands right now, I don’t think they are doing that.

Unfinished Stories

A few years ago we were introduced to the Drifters, a story line that I was personally excited about to the point that I was telling any friend I thought might be interested. I really thought this was CCP making a push to have the environment and AI more interactive with the player and give groups a something that they could use as a new content generator. More than several NPSI communities began taking fleets into these unknown wormholes to take on the Drifter threat and the idea that there was going to be incursions from these invaders was exciting. Where are these Drifters now, besides a few drones and battleships hanging around New Eden to act as a placeholder to a story line that is all but a forgotten nightmare? Even the attempt that the “New Player Experience” brought to try to integrate the Drifter saga does nothing but confuse new players into thinking that this enemy is one that they would encounter on a regular basis. Wrong!

Now we have the new advanced AI being used for pirate mining fleets and the Blood Raider Shipyard that brought the idea back that the universe would feel more alive and interactive. From what we have seen in the EVE news media realm, this concept is relegated to the enjoyment of one particular group of players and we have no real warm and fuzzy when/if the rest of the player base will reap the rewards that this PvE content gives. For that matter, the content has already been gamed and min/maxed by capsuleers much like we would Level V’s and burner missions.

Big deal right? I still know that some are sitting here saying “That’s not what EVE is about.” Okay maybe for you, but your idea of what this game could/should be is certainly different than mine. And mine is different from this guy or that girl over there. It’s a “sandbox” remember?

Enhanced Immersion

Most other MMO games have shard or instanced system where you are placed on a server (typically) based on geographical location or interest (PvP/PvE/WvW etc.), while EVE Online offers one single server that all of its players will share at all times. This is something I would never ask CCP to change about the game. All of those other games, however, have content that keeps their players wanting to log in to play. Not just because they know they can figure out some way to maximize their gold income or to be a troll and make sure no other guild or clan doesn’t have access to their content. These players continue to log in because of new story lines, quests, and CONTENT that is fresh and exciting. This is what EVE Online needs. A reason to log in and get with friends to do something new.

I don’t have the perfect answer for this. I really don’t, and all I can tell you is what I feel I would like to see happen in EVE. Simply stated I would love to see a more interactive and immersive universe that feels alive, and seeing that my interaction with it has lasting effects. Much like the systems in Faction Warfare change with the tides as groups of players fight for their people, players should have to fight for systems from big bad scary Drifters. Pilots in Jita or Hek shouldn’t think for a minute that an AI enemy faction can’t come in to cause havoc. And most importantly, story lines and “lore” needs to be finished. Drifters, Caroline’s Star, and now The Agency need to have a completion event that everyone wants to take part in. If not, all we are doing is seeing who can build the biggest space castle and doing what we can to piss in everyone else’s cornflakes. That type of game will only last for so much longer until the only people left in the game are the ones who made all the others hate playing.

Lord of the space flies

I welcome any and all feedback on to this topic. For those that listen to The Mind Clash or have read my articles before, you know that I am very passionate about this game and love talking about it. Let’s get creative here and spit out some ideas. There is no way I would ever believe that I’m the only one who thinks we need some changes in the game. So please leave a comment on what you think, send me hate mail and tell me I’m wrong, tweet to me, or whatever you want. I’m open for discussion.

Let your voice be heard! Submit your own article to Imperium News here!

Would you like to join the Imperium News staff? Find out how!

Comments

  • While introducing PvE content would be a great thing for CCP to do through out all of New Eden it has never seemed to be something they’ve actually focused on.

    Sure they’ve introduced new stuff of course and missions in the old days too, but it’s generally been as you’ve posted a bit half assed.

    I guess it’s easier to create content for other MMO’s as people play on PvE servers for that aspect and that aspect alone, people play on PvP servers for a bit of this and that, but mainly to duke it out with other humans. The trouble with Eve Online’ PvE is that it becomes farmed and is seen to be an isk faucet for this level of player with these skills, or with incursions a person who can do this, this or that. Saying that, there have been opportunities for alpha characters to join the incursion SIG and take a share in the beautiful ISK generation.

    This is probably why CCP doesn’t want to introduce more content. Fear of further increasing the isk income of the player base.

    Sadly they content they’ve got so far is woefully under used to the point that in null sec at least there’s only three or four sites worth doing for their speed and or ease of completion. Out of about ten different types less than half is worth doing. That’s bad game design right there. The sites with triggers offer the same or less reward than sites without triggers. The sites that jam are just plain annoying.

    CCP, and let’s say the player base too, has to decide what they want the PvE experience to be. Is it a farmed upwardly scaled with infinite alts wealth generation, or can it offer more to divergent groups of players?

    I’ve always wanted a tutorial that gave you the nearest null sec npc system with a station as a destination, when you got there you were given a racial frigate fitted for combat and told to attack a player. It wouldn’t matter if you won or lost as long as you undocked and tried to aggress someone.

    It’s a long topic and we have to remember that our preferred play style isn’t the only play style while it’s important to remember you have the option to be aggressive if some one is trying to stop you from playing your way it may not be the default state of the individual.

    August 9, 2017 at 7:39 am
    • Kael Decadence Sidrat Flush

      One of the problems with asking the “player base” what they want in a PvE experience is that the answers are going to wildly differ. Some players will say fuck PvE, we just want PvP. Others will be really crazy and say WoW style of play, and some will think like us. You can’t rely on us to tell CCP what to do, CCP needs to put its big boy pants on and get creative. Providing the same type of missions and “content” for decades isn’t going to get them very far.

      August 9, 2017 at 10:17 am
      • As customer we do have a stake in the future direction of the game, assuming of course we want to remain customers. Not telling CCP what you’re looking for is similar to not voting, of course they’re not bound by anything to provide the content you’re looking for but if you’re in a sizable minority it could be of interest to a wider group if they knew it exists and is worth trying.

        So where do you stand? What do you think PvE should be in Eve Online?

        August 9, 2017 at 2:49 pm
        • Alaric Faelen Sidrat Flush

          I’d like to see PvE and PvP be far more integrated than they currently are. It’s weird that despite being basically the same ships and combat skills, a ratting ship capable of killing entire hordes of pirate rats single-handedly runs for the nearest station when a single neut enters local. The gulf between PvE and PvP is ridiculous, and the more focused on one you are, the weaker at the other.
          If PvP and PvE shared similarities like having to omni-tank, face random spawns and triggers, and requiring warp disrupting a ‘boss’ enemy…more people would do both. Losses in PvE need to be a thing. Endless billions of isk for buying a ship that never dies sets a bad precedent for getting people to risk ships later.
          PvE should be a ‘training’ ground for PvP. Missions for example should be teaching basic PvP skills instead of how to min/max and blitz.
          Fleeting up needs to be encouraged and rewarded. Instead of turning PvE into an obsessively solo activity.
          It’s one thing that other MMO’s do well is ‘group finders’ for running single instances. One hurdle for many players is having to join some group just to do some content. They might see joining as obligating them to ops, or don’t want to accept the politics or whatever that come with joining.

          I’d like to see PvE that also puts you in a supporting role instead of the DPS monkey. Most of the niche fleet roles only happen in PvP. For many the first time they ever rep someone is in the heat of real PvP with people counting on them. There is no PvE leading up to that where being a tackler, fleet booster, logi, or EWAR specialist comes into play.
          When I first started playing I put a lot of training into EWAR because it just sounded interesting to play…however it was useless to the mission running I was actually doing as a newbie- and I didn’t get to really enjoy EWAR until I was in a huge null sec fleet years later. PvE should include things like repping an AI fleet under attack, or providing jams in a set piece AI battle.
          If more players got to experience these interesting niche role early on in the game, it would go a long way to giving them a goal to reach for in PvP.

          August 9, 2017 at 4:29 pm
          • That supposes PvE to be a training ground for PvP. I’m certain there should be and can be isk generating content with little to no player interactivity as is the current form of PvE.

            If that however could happen they’d have to include a tutorial on remembering to scoop up the loot as I rarely bother these days.

            August 11, 2017 at 12:26 am
          • thats a great point. when incursions first launched, we were doing them in lowsec and nullsec using T3 fleets that were perfect PVP fleets too. i loved it! we spent hours doing PVE in a group, and if anybody engaged us, we were completely ready for combat!

            August 14, 2017 at 6:24 pm
        • Bill Bones Sidrat Flush

          It should NOT be PvP. There’s a disgusting galore of PvP opportunities in EVE. Anyone who wants to PvP haves a trizilillion ways to. EVE needs diversity and that means ways to do things that ARE NOT the same sh*t every PvP idiot is doing.

          August 9, 2017 at 6:03 pm
          • EvE does stand for Everyone versus Everyone. No matter what you’re competing against other people. Second to the site? you lost. Can’t build for profit? you lose. Can’t stop other people mining in your belt? You’ve lost.

            This is and always has been EvE. You may not want to shoot people in the face, but that isn’t the entirety of PvP.

            August 11, 2017 at 12:24 am
          • eight years of this game and ive never heard that before! EveryoneVsEveryone. thats awesome

            August 14, 2017 at 6:23 pm
      • Bill Bones Kael Decadence

        The PvE playerbase is very diverse and probably would suffer from the “people don’t know what they like” effect if they were asked en masse, but that’s why CCP could gather data on player behavior. That, guided with careful and continued surveying with personal interviews, would let CCP know what floats the boat of that large, hetereogenous, silent and uninvested chunk of their income.

        My bet is that everything CCP has done for PvE in the last years has had impacts in the decimal percents: 0.5%, 0.8%, 0.1%… Just as the NPC miners (how clueless can be someone with a living, functional brain?) or Larrikisn’ ego trip with the Fleet Commander AI, they’re a million miles away from the average PvEr.

        The single most important thing to understand PvE in EVE is that it’s being done because it is NOT PvP. And CCP just hasn’t got this very simple basic in 13 years. They’ve got it so wrong actually that they’re pushing to make PvE as PvP…

        August 9, 2017 at 6:00 pm
  • Pew Pew

    My personal opinion is that CCP needs to change how they think about the game in quite a radical way. I think the idea of “providing fun” is hard because it falls to them to be a Game Master and keep feeding new ideas and stories to the playerbase who will eat them up.

    I think they should instead start building a more diverse ecosystem by building smart NPCs.

    For example they could have rogue drones which fly to asteroid belts, mine ore to make more of themselves and fight anyone who interferes in that process. Then they could just set a few loose around new Eden and see what happens.

    If each rogue drone had slightly different ai and slightly different weapons then over time natural selection would take hold and they would become very strong. Moreover they wouldn’t be farmable because their behaviour and population would change over time.

    The same is true for NPC mining fleets. Have them spawn in highsec with a certain composition of ships and then head out into lowsec to look for ore to mine. The fleets that made it back with ore would make more, similar versions, of themselves and those that didn’t make it back wouldn’t be replaced.

    By using natural selection like this CCP could ensure continually changing PVE content and setup a PVP foodchain (pirates would hunt the NPC miners and then pirate hunters would hunt the pirates etc).

    Anyway my broader point is they need to change how they think about the game. Structures are pointless.

    August 9, 2017 at 8:57 am
    • Kael Decadence Pew Pew

      Thanks for commenting on this Pew Pew. Im glad that other folk see kind where I’m going with this instead of immediately taking a reddit style dump on my chest after reading the first few sentences. It would be nice to hear about some ideas other than citadels being the thing that fixes the game. Thats like saying the king of the land is going to give everyone the ability to buy “build-a-castle” kits in hopes of drumming up some fun. Yeah, that’ts not gonna work bro.

      August 9, 2017 at 10:02 am
  • Frans Bovens

    It does indeed feel ccp often doesnt finish story lines or uses them too the max. The idea of drifters or wh inhabitants invade highsec like an incursion is often mentioned. Where the new ia could create a bit more then farming experience. Forcing high sec dwellers to form larger groups and getting too make new frends. Ending with a drifter citadel to be destroyed which anchored when they came out.
    Same goes for buildable stargates, new space, or even closed space , jove , remember ? Amarr throne events and so on.
    At the same time i know ccp and they are passionate and have to make choices, for us its easy, we type our feelings and barf out some crap. While they work this 40 hours a day, year long in a team. Thier income and futures connected too the grow or demize of eve. So i give them alot of trust and credit. Yet i hope they keep reading forums, and threads like this. For us i feel we shoudl stay positive and not say, ccp sucks, but , ” he this would be fun” . Co creation works.
    I hope the new team finishes the tiericide, reduces pointless varations, introducing story and faction being better then t2, therefor giving low sp a change to beat t2 training wih a bit more isk, alos good for bussinss. Faction ammo still below t2 ammo, wtf, makes faction rats shit still. I hope thye finish tiericde as a base for future items and new ideas and mods. So nee mods and gear dont ofthrow eve, but are a logical spreadsheet like followup. Faction t2, why not.
    A new war breaks out, player created content, ultimately i believe in the teamwork, a sandbox with challenge, not a all inclusive resort, fuck that go play wow

    August 9, 2017 at 11:00 am
  • Caleb Ayrania

    I suspect you are not really grasping the essence of the game. You keep talking about these PVE aspects, and practically wishing for some on rails experience. I hope that is never going to happen, because the day CCP chose that direction they might as well pack up and close the servers. CCP have zero advantage in creating PVE on rails games, there are tons of developers out there doing just that and a million times better.

    CCPs unique selling point is the PVP sandbox. The problem with EVE these days is that sometime back in the era of 09-11 someone in CCP started believing that CCP could do a League of Legends, MOBA, or even on rail game development, and they have been undermining and destroying the USP ever since. WE are now in the Titans4Everyone era, whether its from SP injections, or from free resources everywhere. That is why EVE is declining it is no longer “special” and the only group remotely playing the EVE experience is the Imperium, the rest seem unable or unwilling to even muster up competition. Sure I can understand that, because in the current eco-system, there is no way to challenge the “Blob”, since infinite resources, raw materials, isk, etc is basically just a faucet outside someones window.

    What EVE needs imho is proper balanced scarcity and dynamic and responsive faucets and sinks, ideally the game should be “sustained and closed loop”, but at least it needs see saws feedback systems that makes emergent content possible. Right now it feels a lot like when a pen and paper campaign have “Outlevelled” itself, and a reset is needed. The reason being that if the sinks and loss does not proportionally affect the game, “inflation” and hoarding becomes unsustainable, and when one player owns all the plots in Monopoly, the game is really at an end.

    #GoonsWonEVEnowwhat ?

    August 9, 2017 at 11:44 am
    • Kael Decadence Caleb Ayrania

      This is the second or maybe third time you’ve commented on my articles, and it has always been to this effect as though you are somehow higher and more mighty than me. As if your play style is either more important or the one true way. I’m beginning to wonder if you aren’t the salty dog in this scenario.

      Let me ask you Caleb, what would it affect you and what you do in this game if CCP decided to add a layer of play that was more appealing to a different crowd? Would you quit? Would you rise up and fight the change? Or would you just accept it and move on after realizing that some people like it, even if it isn’t your cup of tea?

      You obviously completely miss the air of my message as you are too busy being self-righteous and unable to comprehend that some people enjoy this game differently than you, and I think that actually offends you. More than likely you scoff at the thought of someone just logging into this game once a week on their day off and mining for 3 hours while binge watching Orange is the New Black. That kind of single minded attitude and pompousness is what is holding this game back from being more than what it is. Its players with those thoughts and cringey forum/reddit posts that are keeping CCP from its full potential, thinking that if they offend this raging ball of autism and ADHD that you belong will up and destroy the game just out of spite.

      Maybe its time for you to move along to something else? Maybe the old guard is keeping this game from being more than what it is? I don’t know, but before you start suggesting that I don’t understand this game, perhaps you should take a deeper look at yourself.

      August 9, 2017 at 11:57 pm
      • Caleb Ayrania Kael Decadence

        The dev hours your looking for should go in the other brands, and eventually brand unification will give you what you are asking for. Point is you are wasting time putting “checkers” game pieces in a “Chess” game. That just undermines its unique experience.

        Call it arrogant, the numbers speak for themselves, EVE have slumped ever since it started down the road of “simplification”.

        That said there are a lot of small things in the “PVE” that could def use a polishing, but its about adding dev hours in a smart and extremely effecient way, not trying to build a whole new game inside one that is 15 years old. On rails and overly casual friendly content in EVE is really only a potential teasing, and setting players up for failure.

        August 10, 2017 at 12:12 pm
        • Kael Decadence Caleb Ayrania

          See now this is a little more of a line of communication that Im looking at. Solving with solution based thought and not shade throwing. While you do acknowledge that there are pieces of the pie that still need tweaked, you do think CCP should be focusing on new products while leaving EVE the way YOU like it to be played. You still are ignoring the vast majority of the player base (yeah it aint you) who spend a good portion of their time running around in hisec mission running.

          CCP is not shy about admitting that most of its players have nothing to do with, or even know about/care about, null sec politics and Aegis sov. If you honestly think that added easier to understand and more rich content to EVE would hurt the game and “set it up for failure” as you state, you are delusional. I think the exact opposite. This game would FLOURISH under a huge revamp that would make indoctrination and understanding better. That learning cliff has got to go, otherwise the only people left playing are going to be folks like me, you, and the rest of these ship spinners who read these articles.

          That’s the reality of it. Sorry if you don’t like it, but its the truth. This game isn’t going anywhere with that old school mentality.

          August 10, 2017 at 2:11 pm
  • I’ve always thought it would be interesting if resources actually ran dry. Like what if all ore mining in Delve had to stop because it had been completely mined?

    August 9, 2017 at 12:09 pm
  • Nikolai Mazinkov

    Obligatory comment:
    I do wish there was more dev continuity, as part of the fix is there, including lore, content, etc.Ultimately though how we play the game is the important content, and that’s where I put my stock and my own efforts, be it closed activity, small group hangouts, solo roaming or massive public events.

    August 9, 2017 at 1:45 pm
    • I dont do any of the PVE, but i feel like it certainly doesnt hurt to add to the game for those that do. a diversity in our gameplay styles within the same game is really what makes this MMORPG unique amongst its written-content competitors.

      August 14, 2017 at 6:21 pm
  • I would like to see some data from CCP about how much use different segments of the PvE content in the game get already. Did, for example, burner missions increase interest in PvE, or do they just get farmed by the specific group of people who have all the missions down pat?

    We get some data on that from the monthly economic report, but what it says is a bit grim for PvE. Anoms win overwhelmingly. Is that because there is no “more interesting” alternative or because what people want out of PvE is a consistent payoff for time invested?

    August 9, 2017 at 2:35 pm
    • Bill Bones Wilhelm Arcturus

      I can tell you that most PvErs don’t have time to waste in multiplayer stuff like forming fleets and battling for hours.

      If you only have 60 minutes to play EVE, and you want those 60 minutes be better than anything else you could be doing, those 60 minutes must be rewarding, and the reward must be dependable. So you do PvE. It’s not the biggest bang per your buck, but it’s a bang each time you log into EVE instead of some other game.

      I will dare to say that “time” is the real conundrum of the PvE/PvP dilemma. Even PvPrs will PvE if they have little time. And people who don’t have time to PvP will not PvP under any circunstances. “Time” in a very broad sense: time to meet people, time to do stuff with them, time to recover from your PvP lossses, time in every way it limits what a player can do while playing EVE.

      August 9, 2017 at 6:14 pm
      • Kael Decadence Bill Bones

        For sure Bill. You bring up some good points. I see pings all day long on Discord about fleets going up, and often when I log on to move PI around or do something mindless for an hour or so I will see alliance chat going crazy trying to get people to form for this or that. I don’t always have time for that or I can’t dedicate myself to jumping in a fleet and not know when it might end.

        August 9, 2017 at 11:33 pm
    • Kael Decadence Wilhelm Arcturus

      Oh you know they for damn sure have the data, but we will never see it.

      August 9, 2017 at 11:31 pm
  • Alaric Faelen

    Spot on about finishing a story line.
    Remember that one empire lost it’s friggin’ Empress? What effect did that have on the game? Zero.
    Unless it changed in the last week or so, the show info box at the home (Emperor) station in the Amarr system itself, literally the seat of power for one of the NPC empires- hasn’t been updated to indicate the death of Jamyl and the ascension of a new monarch.
    How sloppy is that, CCP?

    They don’t even create really new enemies when farting out yet another faction. Just more ‘versions’ of human colonists. If you are testing new, difficult AI or superweapons, why not a truly alien species? A new threat emerges. In the entire galaxy there is us….and fedo.
    Why wouldn’t CCP resurrect other ‘lost’ empires instead of creating new splinters of ones we already know (Drifters are Sleepers, everyone is a Jove, etc). When making the hacking content and Ghost Sites, CCP could have brought more focus on Takmahl and Talocan. Lore they already had in game but abandoned.
    Whenever CCP wants to drop new content or events, it feels tacked on to whatever random faction they assign it to. Like they throw darts at a list of lore factions and that is who the event is based around rather than making any storyline progression.

    And lastly farming as content. Incursions, endless ratting on industrial scales, mining fleets that blot out the sun– and none of it has any effect. The pirate factions are regular people, so hundreds or thousands on each ship- and we kill ten thousand of their ships a day. How many trillions of people are really Blood Raiders? It seems like Sansha have more mindless drones than the Empire has citizens to convert.
    There is virtually no immersion into the factions you fight. You fight whatever is in the space you happen to be in, and factions boil down to resistance and damage type. EWAR to a lesser degree. You never have any personal investment in WHY you are shooting this group and not that group. I don’t even know what kind of rats are in Delve, but if I join an Imperium alliance, they are suddenly my sworn enemy. But no matter how many I slaughter day after day- there can only ever be more spawned.

    August 9, 2017 at 3:08 pm
    • Kael Decadence Alaric Faelen

      Very well put. I really feel like they (CCP) has either lost focus/direction in this aspect, or that they don’t have the wherewithal to hire someone who can be dedicated to story line and lore. And no, CCP Ghost does not fit that bill by any stretch of the imagination. They need to can that charlatan if you ask me. Director of New Player Experience my ass.

      August 9, 2017 at 11:20 pm
  • Mintaki

    You’re spot on about them starting things and not finishing, but where you lose me is some of this conspiracy type talk about creating game play for one select group of people and your assumptions about what is possible. I think the salt has caused bitter-vet syndrome and where you could have made a lot more good points you let yourself go into that extreme ranting angle instead of making solid points. I do, however, agree there is a need for CCP to create and follow through with interesting content. We can generate a lot of our own but that’s only if the mechanics behind it are solid and they’re still fighting issues that haven’t been repaired after years of complaints.

    August 9, 2017 at 3:19 pm
    • Kael Decadence Mintaki

      I don’t know if you are disagreeing with me, agreeing, complimenting me, or insulting me. Maybe it has more to do with my writing style but by no means do I think that CCP is focusing on “one select group”, but more that they have lost focus of the big picture in general. I’m not sure how you got that impression, but I respect that.

      As far as being bitter or salty, that’s hardly the case. If it were, I would be one of those “yeah I retired from EVE but still follow the meta” type of dudes instead of logging in every day to do PI, Mine, Rat, or go on roams. I don’t think you really get my angle to be quite honest.

      In the end, yeah, CCP has a lot of issues with their current game mechanics that they have been ignoring for years. They are really just putting bandaids on a wound that is already turned gangrene.

      August 9, 2017 at 11:30 pm
      • Mintaki Kael Decadence

        I got that impression from this statement: “Now we have the new advanced AI being used for pirate mining fleets and the Blood Raider Shipyard that brought the idea back that the universe would feel more alive and interactive. From what we have seen in the EVE news media realm, this concept is relegated to the enjoyment of one particular group of players and we have no real warm and fuzzy when/if the rest of the player base will reap the rewards that this PvE content gives.”

        You’re right in that I don’t get your angle, because I don’t share it, but that’s why we discuss things and that’s why I commented on the article. I’m not out to get a reaction out of you, I am just out to express that you had a few good points and a bunch that were, in my opinion, nonsense.

        A lot of what you talk about are things that a lot of companies or games would love to have, and in a perfect world are great, but aren’t all that easy or practical to apply. Some companies already have some of the things you mentioned but EVE not having them isn’t necessarily a bad thing in every case. It’s part of what makes EVE entirely different as a game.

        I guess, ultimately, I like to see a solution to a problem someone brings up rather than what looks like complaining. I don’t mean a pie-in-the-sky solution but a real, workable solution.

        August 19, 2017 at 3:36 pm
  • Obil Que

    “Now we have the new advanced AI being used for pirate mining fleets and the Blood Raider Shipyard that brought the idea back that the universe would feel more alive and interactive. From what we have seen in the EVE news media realm, this concept is regulated to the enjoyment of one particular group of players and we have no real warm and fuzzy when/if the rest of the player base will reap the rewards that this PvE content gives. ”

    Your problem is your timeline. The advanced AI was introduced with pirate mining fleets then expanded upon with Blood Raider Shipyards. Your comment on the “one particular group of players” ignores the upcoming release of the Serpentis and Drone region shipyards expanding this content to more regions. CCP is very much advancing the use of their AI tools. It is now on the developers to use those tools and we all know what state EVE’s developer load is in. I’m sure you will express distaste for “wait for it” and Soon(TM) being the answer but to look at CCPs work and state or insinute that they aren’t building the immersive NPC environment you’re basically asking for is somewhat disingenuous. And with the winter expansion being about empire space, the expectation, at least to me, is that there is the distinct possibility of this AI showing up in critical places possibly enhancing or replacing content such as missions, DED anomalies, and others.

    August 9, 2017 at 3:25 pm
    • Kael Decadence Obil Que

      Im fully aware of the timeline of events, but its hardly relevant to the topic. Regardless, the fact remains that we are all pretty much waiting on baited breath and borrowed isk to see what CCP “might” come out with this “winter”. We all saw how “summer” went.

      August 9, 2017 at 11:22 pm
  • Tony tonyistony

    “What have you done to find content lately”
    I think this is the crux of it all. It is so hard to put into words what you’re trying to get across to people who don’t share the same idea of entertaining content within EVE. Some of the best times I’ve had in EVE was with a few good trusted friends trying to accomplish the impossible.

    For example, 4 guys and I evicted a 30-man corp out of a C2 wormhole purely through hole control and pod eviction. While this was the most entertaining content I’ve ever experienced in any game, it was also the most time demanding and exhausting content generation in EVE I’ve ever experienced. However, it’s one of those moments in EVE that is on the top of the list as the most entertaining moments in EVE to date. A bonus is those pilots I flew with that weekend are now long-lasting friends that I will know the rest of my life.

    Another example is back in 2010 I used to live out of my carrier logged out in space in Outer Ring running combat anoms alone. People say EVE PvE is one of the most boring aspects of the game, and I would agree for the most part. However, I challenge anyone to grab their main and a couple scout alts, load up a carrier with a cloak, loaded with scout ships, bombers, cynos, and a combat site running ship. Then place yourself by yourself in NPC 00 with no stations and hostiles everywhere. Then try to run sites in the area without docking for 30 days. Granted the dank ticks don’t exist, but the rush you get when hostile fleets come hunting for you and having to rely on your knowledge of EVE mechanics and proper scouting was worth every missed tick.

    A final example, which was another solo operation. I got into the drug game. I had my dickstar setup with all the reactions ready for manufacturing drugs. Once I learned that you must get Cytoserocin that only exists in SOV null I started planning how I would infiltrate their homes and steal their gas. I started getting blops cyno chains setup, (this is before prospects) and I would bridge my covops hauler and a custom gas cloud mining rapier deep into SOV 00 alone. If I was successful in mining their gas I would only need to be there for a few game hours to get what I needed to run a strong BPO. But the process of infiltrating a large 00 blocs space and running their sites was quite exhilarating and I would do it again in a heartbeat.

    Now let’s take this story in another direction…
    I used to watch those big 00 fleet battles on Youtube. Being new to the game, I remember saying to myself, “I want to be there one day.” I spent MANY years and man hours building a lowsec corp with good PvP pilots, and worked my way up the ladder of politics and got this corp into a well-known lowsec alliance. Every political move I made felt like progress, and when I sat in a 256-man fleet with 2 other blue 256-man fleets, and successfully defended a Titan from the entirety of EVE, I knew I had accomplished what I set out to do.

    “One doesn’t simply leave a corp you help build from the ground up.”
    What I found over the years is I became worse at the game (mechanics wise). I became a desk jocky for all intents and purposes, managing many alliance level programs and spreadsheets. I spent more time worrying about how other people enjoyed the game more than how I enjoyed the game. It turned me into what could be called a “bitter vet”. This process is natural however, but not what I wanted to turn into. I remember trying to “take a break” from leadership and go do those things I stated above, and I failed miserably due to being so rusty. It was heartbreaking and I felt I was locked into the world I created for the sake of getting into the big battles.

    That was the day I retired from EVE, and my name entered the long list of burnt out CEO leadership types that EVE supposedly needs to survive. Or does it?
    In my opinion as an ex-CEO and ex-alliance leader of a larger lowsec organization, a return to playing this game with a few good men, and not worrying about how I can make someone else’s game time enjoyable is exactly what SOME people need to be reinvigorated to play the game again. The effect of this would in turn create the small gang atmosphere that once was so prevalent in EVE and created many memorable micro engagements that will stay in your memories years to come.

    Winter is Coming! Hopefully it will bring the change that people in similar situations like myself have long missed over the years in the ever evolving EVE environment.

    August 9, 2017 at 6:38 pm
    • Kael Decadence Tony tonyistony

      I feel ya my brother. I too have lived on the edge when I took an Orca into a wormhole on my lonesome and strictly lived in there by myself and alts for a few months. Knowing that while I jumped out with an Iteron and may not come back to the rest of my ships was wild and insane, but I made it out of there eventually. What a rush. Its true we can make our own content like that, but that is an entirely different thing. Sometimes you gotta come back into town to see what the locals are up to.

      August 9, 2017 at 11:26 pm
  • Kael Decadence

    I don’t know if that’s really a good idea. You would then have the top dog being even more top because they would be able to pay that premium to have their shit moved around New Eden practically unscathed all while knowing how easy it will be to gank the little guy who just wants to move his small bit of fortune to low/null for the first time. Then you have that cycle all over again of the new kid on the block never being able to compete with the old guys. That would be totally demoralizing to a new player realizing that the older players have such free reign of the market and the content wouldn’t it?

    August 10, 2017 at 12:00 am
  • A.D. Sixx

    There’s been a woeful lack of follow-thru on some rather promising new shinys that have been tossed into New Eden. I look at the Drifters, burner missions, the epic mission arcs, changes to UI, etc. and I’m left going ‘…and? Where’s the rest, not just the demo release?’ The failing of finishing what’s been started is becoming more obvious as each mini-expansion/release/patch/redo comes out. I’m sick of the trite answer of Soon (TM) when I point out promises made but still not filled. Does CCP have a direction for the game, other than mini-Plex transactions, Alpaca account login number padding, and ignoring asked for SiSi feedback to release a buggy update that’s more obtuse than what UI function it’s replacing?

    I dunno. There’s a lot of nice ideas in the mix, but all that shows is a company running in circles scattering glitter all over the place. Does CCP know where they are going when it comes to Eve? Or has the best parts of the brain trust been channeled into a VR future that might not be profitable in time?

    I want that follow-thru. I want promises made and then kept in a timely manner. When the game client is less of a jumbled mess of random shinys, bugs that stick around for months/years finally get well and truly smashed, a roadmap that doesn’t look like a demolition derby is available, then maybe myself and others will have a better idea for moving forward. ‘Cuz right now, we’re doing donuts in the mall parking lot (badly). Today needs to get patched up before tomorrow stands a snowball’s chance in Hel.

    August 10, 2017 at 3:05 am
    • Kael Decadence A.D. Sixx

      Preach!

      August 10, 2017 at 3:40 am
  • Angel Daemon.

    A sandbox is a sandbox, if that makes any sense.
    As far as I know CCP is working hard on providing content, specially for new bros but also more advanced stuff like the net worth indicator.
    Having limited resources lets see what focus they set:
    Balancing ->Seems quite important to me
    Improving graphics (suns, stations..etc) -> Nobrainer for a space-game
    Adapting game mechanics -> Upcomming moon mining.. we will see how it works out but focussing on game mechanics seems like a valid goal.

    Quick “content creation” -> ” The agency” This is what you actually can do with limited resources and it is only entretaining for one or two days and that is the problem with “content”. It requires enormous effort to implement and it is boring as hell after one or two days, focusing on it doesn’t make a lot of sense, unless you are completely out of ideas and dont have anything else to focus on. The only selling point is making players aware that they could potentially do things like killing rats in asteroid belts.

    Advanced “content creation'” -> “The AI”. This is a major commitment for the company in terms of effort and hopefully it really can add to the game at some point. As it stands no one likes AI that is smarter than human pilots. If we now tell the guys to make the AI do random stuff a human player would do there is little point in it because that what you have the human players for. Having the AI outsmart you is even more boring than bots in the long run, like in chess people like to play vs other players and not versus the computer.

    Adding cinematic storylines is extremely costly and is only entretaining one or two times; from time to time CCP can add some eye candy to support the lore for sure, but its not like absolutely needed.

    The key content of the game is living in space, building and tuning spaceships, waging war, defending your stuff, exploring and having fun in a team if that is your thing.

    August 10, 2017 at 8:51 am
    • Kael Decadence Angel Daemon.

      Net Worth Indicator? Really? What does that really do for you. Pushing that like its some sort of Jesus feature is just dumb. It was a nice little upgrade to the wallet/character info, but what does it do besides tell you the value of all the shit you have spread all over New Eden? Nothing. Like zero.

      Do you honestly believe anything you said? “Working hard” to provide new-bro content? Where? Improved Graphics? Cool, you polished up a turd… it’s still a turd.

      I never said and would never suggest that CCP should go around making “cinematic storylines”, just have the STORYLINE in general. Who cares about cuts scenes and cinematics. I want a reason to play this game besides “well the FC sent out a ping, and now I gots to go press the f1 for an hour”. Like, NO. There is so much more to this game than that, and there can be EVEN MORE.

      Look, I’m sure CCP loves the fanfare you would likely shower them with, but eventually they will get as bored of that as you would get bored of this cinematic storyline that you are talking about. That’s not realistic and is not at all the point I was trying to make.

      August 10, 2017 at 2:19 pm
  • Tornik

    Thank you for this perspective. It is encouraging to see there are still commentators and players who have not completely given in to the “make your content” bandwagon that has seen EVE transformed from a content-rich universe of a decade ago into the time-killing pastime of ISK farming, min-maxing players brandishing their newest bling titans.

    The roots of the “make your content” drive are, in my view, much deeper and go outside the EVE community. The neoliberal capitalism has raised a generation over the past 20 years through an intense propaganda of individualism and private profit, to replace systems of social benefit and people creating mutually valuable structures. The same dynamic has happened with CCP and EVE over the last 7-8 years or so – instead of constantly reinforcing the story-generating structures enabling players to forge their evolving narratives in the game, the devs have completely abandoned any effort of shaping the game to its best interest.

    A good example of this is the Faction Warfare system. While the super-rich lore of the game would have you believe it is a grand effort of universe factions clashing for control of star systems, the actual reality of ISK-farming frigs in artificially limited complexes with no overarching narrative of conflict quickly dissolves that illusion. Why do you fight in FW? Why do you take this side, or that side? Is there a constantly evolving, daily narrative from participants that one would read and become interested to follow the activities or join them? This has all become irrelevant in the absence of a valid, sustainable, immersive, relatable structure in FW.

    You only need to read books like Empires of EVE to see how attractive the game was in from 2003 to circa 2010 and how much it has degenerated over the last decade while being solely left in the hands of player corporations.

    August 10, 2017 at 4:34 pm
    • Kael Decadence Tornik

      Thank you. Yes I agree. I really feel like CCP has abandoned the “story” and “history” of the game and is quite content with allowing the players to decide the future of the game. We really are at a point where we are just pawns of the meta and nothing new is attracting new players. The Ascension release with Alpha’s and the Inception release with the “NPE” came and went, and did nothing to retain new players. Yes it did draw in some new players, but it didn’t retain the. The game is still dull as shit, regardless of whatever what Mittens has with whoever at the time. Even as a member of CO2 I could give a crap less what the war is about and what direction the meta is going. That isn’t why I play, and I am getting more and more pushed away from it the more CCP keeps its distance from the true meaning of New Eden.

      August 12, 2017 at 11:20 pm
      • Oh the hype on the F2P launch – there was so much potential to make it work, and yet such absence of vision from CCP of what was needed for that.

        I actually feel like the demotion of people like torfifrans from the roles of shaping the game universe in circa 2013 was a mistake, even with the Walking in Stations debacle. The change in direction since then has not served the game well.

        P.S. I just edited my ramblings in my first comment to make connection between points made more understandable.

        August 13, 2017 at 12:26 am