PAPI Keepstar in YZ9-F6 Comes Online

2020-10-18

Header art by Razorien

Delve: 6-UCYU: YZ9-F6: At approximately 1830 EVE on October 18, a Keepstar was successfully onlined by PAPI forces.

This latest attempt to online a Keepstar comes on the back of several weeks of thick fighting in the NPC portion of Delve and represents the fifth attempt by PAPI forces to secure a beachhead in Delve proper. The previous four attempts were unsuccessful, as those Keepstars were destroyed by Imperium forces, who themselves sustained heavy ISK losses during those earlier battles.

PAPI leadership seemed intent on avoiding a repeat of past failures to online a Keepstar and dug in their defenses against another assault. Approximately 150 warp disruption field generators were anchored, completely surrounding the structure, making any assault attempt very difficult. This tactic, while successful, generated some controversy, as Imperium representatives accused PAPI of intentionally lagging out the server in order to prevent Imperium forces from being able to load the grid.

Asked about the tactic, Imperium leader The Mittani said, “If CCP will allow players to anchor 150+ bubbles on a Keepstar defense, we look forward to using this tactic ourselves at every opportunity. World War Bubble benefits the defenders, and we have far more Keepstars to defend than the enemy.”

Imperium Sky Marshal Asher Elias said, “If this was solely a legitimate strategy as they claim, and not an attempt to lag out the clients as they loaded grid, why would [PAPI] have their dictors drop bubbles inside the [already] anchored bubbles? There’s no strategic purpose to that.”

PAPI Fleet Commander ProGodLegend commented, “Yeah, it seems like, despite the rhetoric, Imperium forces did not have the resources to contest this Keepstar again so soon after losing another 150 caps and 2,000 battleships.”

While the consequences of this latest development remain uncertain, clearly the war in the south remains far from over. Fighting will likely intensify as PAPI forces move in to Delve proper and begin further assaults on the Imperium. With Imperium forces vowing to fight over every inch of territory, and PAPI seeking a war of annihilation, Delve will no doubt be a hotbed of activity for the foreseeable future.

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Comments

  • Menaiya

    Typical PaPi hackers. EVE really has gone downhill, if it takes manipulating the server to finally do something.

    October 18, 2020 at 9:02 PM
    • Step Stool Menaiya

      wrong that is Goon Spin. CCP has already stated this was a valid tactic

      October 18, 2020 at 10:50 PM
      • Berth Ljunggren Step Stool

        And yet someone got banned for bubbling his station a few years ago, “trying to cause server lag”, if the enemy in this case goons crash when they try to load the grid i would consider that a disruption that needs to be looked into, and i doubt it was cause goons had no ships left.

        October 18, 2020 at 11:01 PM
        • Step Stool Berth Ljunggren

          humm I was on grid and I did not crash…does client crashing only effect goons? odd cuz I have crashed in normal Tidi fights with no bubble. so Tidi is hacks?

          October 18, 2020 at 11:11 PM
          • Berth Ljunggren Step Stool

            That i do not know, i was not there i just saw it in the twitch chat from multiple people, not sure if there is a difference when they are friendly or not in the code, i was in FWST with 6300 hostiles, did not crash but not that many bubbles in such a fairly small area.

            October 18, 2020 at 11:14 PM
          • Step Stool Berth Ljunggren

            my point. goon spin that is all. they where out played this round. its a tug of war ya win some you loose some. Like I tell my son playing fortnight. Just because you lose does not mean the other person is hacking

            October 18, 2020 at 11:17 PM
          • Total Newbie Step Stool

            The only spin was your mom under my desk

            October 19, 2020 at 7:05 AM
          • Super Duper Step Stool

            If you are on grid you don’t have to load it anymore, the problem was the grid not loading for the ones arriving after the keepstar had a tripple bubble layer.

            October 19, 2020 at 9:56 AM
          • Whether spamming objects lags the client or not, CCP’s GMs have been intervening to clear bubble/can/shuttle/whatever spam for over a decade when people try to use them to, say, hell-bubble a deadend ratting system. So this definitely represents a policy-reversal on their part.

            October 19, 2020 at 12:28 AM
      • Total Newbie Step Stool

        And enjoy it when we do it to you cupcake

        October 19, 2020 at 7:04 AM
  • Captain Jeep-Eep

    You’ve anchored, but let’s see how much you like turnabout, you dinosaur fuckers.

    October 18, 2020 at 9:54 PM
  • Deni'z von Meanace

    So is that the end and dog days are over?

    October 18, 2020 at 10:05 PM
  • Step Stool

    I can taste the salt

    October 18, 2020 at 10:27 PM
    • EbilFairy Step Stool

      but can you taste the rainbow ?

      October 19, 2020 at 12:16 AM
  • Simon Chui

    Good, they finally figured it out. Obviously it wasn’t enough to just shoot the attackers after they’re in position, they had to stop the ships getting into position. Turns out they were lying about being happy to just shoot Imperium ships, though. Who would have thought? They know just shooting thousands of subcaps won’t get them anywhere, but PGL still lies about it, fooling only his own line members.

    October 18, 2020 at 10:41 PM
    • Step Stool Simon Chui

      INIT announcing they cut SRP in half because they cant make isk tells a different story

      October 18, 2020 at 10:44 PM
      • Menaiya Step Stool

        No such announcement was made, as usual, Step Stool here has no original thoughts in his head, would love to see his sources though.

        October 19, 2020 at 11:57 AM
        • He’s probably not replying because he’s busy queuing up to vote for Trump.

          October 21, 2020 at 5:33 AM
          • Michael Ganthrithor

            Your comment just proves how stupid you really are!

            October 24, 2020 at 5:48 PM
          • Ok.

            October 26, 2020 at 6:16 AM
  • Guilford Australis

    Some quick cocktail-napkin-math here.

    It took PAPI five attempts to anchor a Keepstar. That’s ONE timer to contest. These Keepstars were anchored roughly every other day.

    Delve has 60 Keepstars fully online, fueled, and fitted. If each timer of those takes PAPI five attempts to contest (and let’s just forget for the sake of convenience that failure on the armor and hull timers resets the whole thing), with Keepstar battles happening every other day, it’ll take only… FIVE YEARS for PAPI to kill them all. That’s to say nothing of the thousands of lesser structures. Or the fact that most of the systems these battles will take place in are cyno-jammed.

    I’ll check back in after five years and see how PAPI’s doing with that now that they’ve figured out how to achieve a 20% success rate contesting a single timer.

    October 18, 2020 at 10:43 PM
    • Step Stool Guilford Australis

      now that your no longer allowed to Rat in Delve come back in 5 years sounds about right

      October 18, 2020 at 10:46 PM
      • Guilford Australis Step Stool

        You just upvoted your own comment, tool. You do realize we can see that?

        October 18, 2020 at 10:48 PM
        • Step Stool Guilford Australis

          of course 🙂 goon will delete all comments eventually that are against their narrative

          October 18, 2020 at 10:51 PM
          • Guilford Australis Step Stool

            Based on your comments here, you certainly know a thing or two about narratives.

            My “narrative” was math. And from your first reply I gather you don’t disagree with my math. I hope your fellow line members are looking forward to five years of structure grinds. Wouldn’t want reality to get in the way of your narrative, after all.

            October 18, 2020 at 11:03 PM
          • Step Stool Guilford Australis

            my Narrative is content and having a good time playing the game. I hope both sides are having fun. but from the salt I dout your side is having as much fun as us

            October 18, 2020 at 11:13 PM
          • Total Newbie Step Stool

            See you back here when the shoe is on the other foot right?

            October 19, 2020 at 7:03 AM
          • Moomin Amatin Step Stool

            If you were having such a great time with the “Feed-Stars” then why did you change tactics? I was fully expecting to spend around 10 hours yesterday throwing ships at a “Feed-Star” just like we have the previous 4 times. I was having fun, seems that you were not.

            October 19, 2020 at 9:46 AM
          • Darkduprey Guilford Australis

            Your narrative is “math” assuming all timers done one by one tho, without even attempting an other shield bash until the previous Keepstar is completelly dead.

            Since it is pretty obvious that the Imperium will themself abandon the defense well before the five years mark, this just won’t be the case.

            By your kind of math, regions like Fountain or Querious should have hold two years each at least in structure timers. But that’s just not how things work.

            October 19, 2020 at 3:13 PM
          • Guilford Australis Darkduprey

            Dark – I clearly stated this is “cocktail-napkin-math” based on the barest details currently known about each side’s capabilities and level of commitment. However, you’re making claims about the “obvious” defensive goals of The Imperium – which you do not know and which are thus not “obvious,” and your belief that a very long-term structure grind scenario “just won’t be the case” – which you also do not know.

            I’ve made the point many times on these articles that strategic objectives in Delve will be completely different from the cakewalk PanFam enjoyed in Fountain. That was exactly the point of my comment above. The PAPI coalition did not exactly demonstrate overwhelming capability while unsuccessfully anchoring four Keepstars, and those were single-timer encounters involving unfitted anchoring structures. The Keepstars in Delve are fully fitted, fueled, and equipped with defensive modules.

            PAPI bragged at length about mustering 130 Titans for the fifth anchoring. One hundred thirty. Do you know how many Titans The Imperium sent to kill the NC. Keepstar in X-47? Three hundred fifty.

            The outcomes of the Delve campaign are not “obvious,” and statements about what “just won’t happen” are bias confirmation at this point. What we do know is that PAPI has thus far failed to show a commanding ability to contest timers, so I’m curious to see how long they hold out bashing their heads against online Keepstars in relentless TIDI-grinds in cyno-jammed systems in Delve.

            October 19, 2020 at 3:26 PM
          • So you are basicaly saying…this is a cocktail-napkin-math but you can use it to wipe your ass with it because the math will never ever come even close to reality.

            October 19, 2020 at 9:48 PM
          • Guilford Australis Marus

            Five attempts per timer is in fact the current “reality”for PAPI. You can wipe your ass with that “reality,” along with the others described above, if you want to.

            October 19, 2020 at 10:58 PM
          • Garreth Vlox Darkduprey

            “By your kind of math, regions like Fountain or Querious should have hold two years each at least in structure timers. But that’s just not how things work.”
            Yeah… except for the part where it was publicly announced we weren’t going to do that to focus on protecting delve and the core of our home space.

            “Since it is pretty obvious that the Imperium will themself abandon the defense well before the five years mark, this just won’t be the case.”
            No war in this game has come anywhere near being 5 years long, because no one can stay deployed and ask their members to no life it for that long. If you think that’s even an option you’ve already lost.

            October 19, 2020 at 4:28 PM
          • Moomin Amatin Step Stool

            The only person likely to delete any of your comments is you.

            INN have only ever banned people who went beyond in-game.

            October 19, 2020 at 9:47 AM
          • George Ewing Step Stool

            No, we actually leave all comments alone. Even the dumb ones.

            October 20, 2020 at 5:29 PM
      • Only poor people rat: ratting’s been nerfed into the fucking ground to the point where there’s no point in doing it in any ship fancier than a goddamn Myrmidon and if we really hate ourselves enough to rat we can continue to do that 23/7 in hulls that are reimbursable and pay for themselves in like 30 minutes so really great comment here, guy.

        October 19, 2020 at 12:25 AM
      • Garreth Vlox Step Stool

        I haven’t ratted in 2 years… and i’m still sitting on double digit billions in personal isk and assets across multiple characters. If you honestly think negatively impacting our ratting revenue is the magic ticket to taking delve you’re going to have a REALLY bad time. Also nice self upvote, that doesn’t reek of desperation at all.

        October 19, 2020 at 4:26 PM
  • r3dchimera

    Man, I really wanted to be wrong about Goons for awhile, but honestly they seem like a cult these days which is rather spooky and cringe if I’m honest. Years ago, I’d look up at null sec from afar with wonder, hearing tales of crazy stories with rifters and hulks being blapped in a mass of lols and care-free funtimes. I almost wanted to join them back then but Eve as a game just wasn’t my style at the time. Kinda glad I didn’t now, I’d be a bit ashamed of what it is…

    Whatever happened to those days I wonder? Did they even truly exist? What’s with this strong blaring propaganda tilt? Is it really that fun to lie to everyone else and yourself until it either becomes the truth or gets rubbed in your face just for you to deny it later? Why not be in real politics? Did you fail that hard at life at being a silver-tongued narcissistic scumbag? It’s not healthy man. Just play the game and stop playing like you’re playing “the game”.

    Further, the self-contradicting stuff on record is amazing. I want to almost keep digging but I find it toxic for my own health and so should you, if you are a Goon, reading this. I will leave at this and only post this in argument from now on (which is from your own news network): https://imperium.news/20-inside-failure-cascade/

    See/control+f ” Phase Two: Failure of Rationalization “

    October 18, 2020 at 11:39 PM
    • Guilford Australis r3dchimera

      Is this supposed to be some kind of free-verse poetry slam? Take it to the next reading at Swarthmore or Oberlin.

      October 19, 2020 at 1:03 AM
      • I take no credit for the article in question. I just take credit for pointing out the irony. “This article originally appeared on TheMittani.com, written by The Mittani.” It’s down there on the bottom. Fascinating.

        October 19, 2020 at 1:30 AM
    • Arrendis r3dchimera

      So, just to touch on rhetoric, self-contradiction, and cultism, lemme just point something out here.

      For the previous four keepstars, the refrain coming out of PAPI, from the leadership to the line members was ‘that was a bait keepstar to get you guys to feed’. Now, let’s say for a moment that that’s accurate.

      If the objective is to get Goons to feed, then why completely encase the keepstar in bubbles? I mean, when you set a trap, do you seal the whole thing up so nothing can fall into it? Do you set up a box snare inside a closed box?

      If the objective in these was to get Goons to feed, then wouldn’t you want to make the target appear assailable? Wouldn’t you want the victims to think they have an avenue of attack? Isn’t that what makes the feed happen, the prey committing?

      I had multiple people on the PAPI side today tell me (one where others could see it) ‘I really was hoping for a feed, but no way with this set up’. Even PAPI’s supercapital pilots could see the defensive config was not one that would bring a fight. There was no point to even attempting it.

      It wasn’t even possible to get a long fight with this arrangement: nothing got close enough to apply damage and pause the keepstar. If we can’t pause the keepstar, the ‘fight’ is over in 15 minutes, period. So then why would we waste time and effort throwing ships into a meat grinder with no actual goal?

      ‘Fun’? I mean, I see you talking about the olden days of ‘a mass of lols and care-free funtimes’, but the mechanics of combat have changed. In the old days, those hordes of Rifters could kill something. They had a chance to take people down with them, even little by little, by overwhelming the local tank of the ship.

      Now, that’s not possible. It doesn’t matter how many waves of Rifters you throw at a target, if each of those waves can’t do more damage than the fax reps in range of the target, you make no progress. Do you often find spending hours working hard to be prevented from accomplishing anything at all to be ‘fun’?

      The structure can’t be repped. And when there was a chance to keep throwing waves of ships at the structure and slowly whittle it down, we did that. This time, that strategy was completely negated, and after a few minutes of testing the defenses to be sure, we chose not to waste thousands of players’ time.

      So who’s doing the lying? The guys who demonstrated that when the objective was possible, they’d throw waves upon waves of ships at it in order to achieve victory? Or the guys who spent 2 weeks insisting ‘these are just bait to make you feed’ and then finally made sure there was no reason for us to feed, at all?

      I mean, one side’s consistently been walking back their claims all through this.

      First, TEST totally wasn’t planning an invasion when they asked to rip up the NIP. Remember that?

      Then it was all because Goons never give anyone content… while we were deployed up north fighting PanFam and Snuff, and regularly taking fights when we were outnumbered or had no real chance of victory.

      Then this all happened because Goonswarm fired Vily… until people who were there pointed out (with logs) that Vily quit, and then suddenly Vily insisted that he totally never told the guy who interviewed him that he’d been fired (but somehow, that’s what the guy put in the article).

      Then it was because he’d been told he had to ‘prove himself’… except when confronted with more logs of him talking to people in the GSF directorate in the days before he left, Vily had to admit that Mittens was openly praising him and declaring him one of the most proven, trusted guys we had… oh, and when he quit, he refused to talk to Mittens about any of it.

      So… exactly who is ‘self-contradicting’ here?

      October 19, 2020 at 7:21 AM
      • Darkduprey Arrendis

        For the previous four keepstars, the refrain coming out of PAPI, from the leadership to the line members was ‘that was a bait keepstar to get you guys to feed’. Now, let’s say for a moment that that’s accurate.

        No, that was not. Not at any point.

        The actual refrain was that we did want a Keepstar to anchor, but if it didn’t then that wasn’t a big deal because considering the ridiculous feed you had to pay everytime to kill it, the trade was still worth it, and in addition, it was easy to just try again the next day until it worked.

        I even had this conversation with your character in the RP channel more than one time.

        Yes, some line members were probably sad that they didn’t have all the kills they had came to expect everytime they joined those fleets.

        That’s not enough to consider that the leadership never wanted the Keepstars to anchor at all, or that PAPI as an entity didn’t strategically want a Keepstar to anchor at some point.

        October 19, 2020 at 3:25 PM
        • Arrendis Darkduprey

          You should probably go back and re-watch TiS if you think that wasn’t exactly the line PAPI leadership folks were peddling, and /r/EVE if you think line members weren’t parroting it up.

          So hey, congratulations on supporting my ‘yep, PAPI leadership was lying this whole time’ statement with ‘and even some of their line members know it’.

          October 19, 2020 at 3:33 PM
          • Darkduprey Arrendis

            So you naturally place more value in what is stated in TIS (or the Meta Show on the over side of the War), which are just literally propaganda channels and entertainement platforms, than in what the players that actually play in PAPI and talk with all of them daily think and/or know?

            So what, should I now scream that the Imperium is lying everytime your next tactic isn’t word by word whatever Mittens said on his last appereance on stream?

            If anything, this tactic was ready and checked with CCP since Keepstar 2.
            Yet it wasn’t used before Keepstar 5. At the very least, they did use Keepstar 3 and 4 with the only goal of bleeding you, despite having the other strategy ready.

            Sorry, I didn’t know they were supposed to write you or your FC a personnal email telling you exactly when and why they might actually do something else.
            I hope Asher send us an email the next time he prepare a Titan trap and Mittens will announce it on stream, since this is apparently the rule.

            October 20, 2020 at 2:20 PM
          • Arrendis Darkduprey

            When I’m addressing ‘whose public statements from leadership are lies and self-contradiction’, yes, I place more value on the public statements being made by leadership than I do what line members say amongst themselves.

            And let’s get real here: plenty of line members have been saying exactly the same things, with exactly the same shifting justifications, both in convos w/me and others, and on reddit. Right down to the ‘we have to drive you out of the game because you’re toxic’ over a decade-old incident, while ignoring Manny’s continued behavior, and then yelling at Asher for ‘doxxing’ Manny by posting something that Manny himself had posted to r/eve already.

            And no, Keepstars 3 and 4 were not used ‘with the only goal of bleeding’ us, and you know it.

            October 21, 2020 at 5:59 AM
          • Darkduprey Arrendis

            Well I wrote you an argumented answer and it was apparently “marked as spam”, so… I guess we should just stop here? :shrug:

            October 21, 2020 at 2:59 PM
          • Arrendis Darkduprey

            Looks like it came through just fine. I’unno.

            October 21, 2020 at 3:46 PM
      • R3dpeel Arrendis

        There was a key point I really wanted to make here but it frankly got lost while both of us were getting overly heated and picking a side from the get-go. Your coalition/alliance all had an image years ago that’s muddled and lost at sea now, in my own opinion, anyway. I’m suggesting everyone stops defending or attacking narratives, spinning, etc, etc… and just do what you seemingly used to do once upon a time. Be good sports about it, even in the face of crappy circumstances. They will happen to ANY side. Be what you were (I think?). See red, shoot it, have a laugh with your pals and move on to the next. Live, laugh, love, kill, die, repeat.

        Everything else is just toxic (and this goes for -any- side that participates this way). And while amusing briefly, it’s kinda scary once it’s realized how seriously it is taken and how over-serious so many people take themselves. Keeping up with and defending/attacking who did this and who did that to this level of, dare I say psuedo-fact-checking, is basically the equivalent of jacking it to yourself in the mirror whilst looking angry and suspicious through your window on occasion.

        It amuses and rather frightens me both that some people take the political things in Eve more seriously than the average Joe does in real life about anything of actual consequence. Step away from the curtains. I’d love to see this accomplished in real life with politics, too, which is unlikely. However, it’d be mighty cool if some mega entity in the game set the highest of sporting standards instead, at the very least as a consolation prize; that is, rather than aspiring to be a confusing, messy, yet somehow strangely powerful bunch of old creepy men that should have died years earlier metaphorically/literally. I’m sure the retention numbers in the coalition are decent but have they really grown in the past year? I’m sure the same can be said about your attackers to some degree too. Put outside factors away and look inward. Be more desirable, be likeable, be something you can be proud of. Right now not many outside the alliance will miss you if you’re gone. That’s a shame. Don’t whine and stomp like the leaders do. Be the best legacy in the game (dead or alive), or not. Also… Maybe a new leader might help?

        The article at the very top here was good reporting. Not much tilt tbh, just an impartial play of whatever happened. Keep that up. 🙂

        October 20, 2020 at 12:35 AM
        • If “EVE is just a game man, why not just play happy-go-lucky?” then why the fuck does your side wait until they have a 3:1 numerical advantage and EVEN THEN insist on proceeding in the most cowardly, risk-averse manner possible every step of the way?

          I can’t *blame you* for constantly playing it safe, but it’s pretty rich of you to go out of your way to be this risk-averse while simultaneously making fun of us for “taking the game too seriously.”

          And as far as smack-talk is concerned, TAPI are the loudest, most obnoxious retards I’ve ever encountered in EVE. When I had the misfortune of sitting in 8QT local for a few weeks, literally all I saw was you guys talking shit all day long every day. So there’s that.

          October 21, 2020 at 5:47 AM
        • Arrendis R3dpeel

          Your coalition/alliance all had an image years ago that’s muddled and lost at sea now, in my own opinion, anyway. I’m suggesting everyone stops defending or attacking narratives, spinning, etc, etc… and just do what you seemingly used to do once upon a time.

          You know, you’re saying that, but we threw wave upon wave of disposable crap at the previous Keepstars. So how are we not doing what we used to do?

          The time we didn’t, we didn’t do it because there was no point. You say ‘See red, shoot it, have a laugh with your pals and move on to the next’, but… when it’s not a complete waste of time, we do exactly that.

          As for the ‘EVE is just a game’ argument… sure. EVE is a game. People aren’t. As part of the leadership of Goonswarm Federation, I have a responsibility to the line members. I don’t waste their time. I don’t waste their efforts. If they want to yolo their shit, that’s great. Have fun! If they want to go on a fun fleet with an FC who tells them ‘we’re all probably going to die’, that’s awesome stuff, man, and I hope they have a good time.

          But I have an obligation not to take years of their hard work and shit on it by telling them to go get the shit they spent years of effort obtaining, and losing it for no reason. If there’s a goal to achieve, and we can achieve it? If there’s a way we can make losing that ship serve their long-term interests? Then I’d have to say that option is on the table. Of course it is. We have these ships to use them, after all. We all want to go and throw our shit into the meatgrinder and have a great time doing it.

          But when’s the last time you pissed away even a month’s pay on a terrible experience, and came away thinking ‘that was fun, I’m glad I did it’?

          Because honestly, massive tidi fuckfests where the server is unreliable? They are only fun in hindsight. When it’s going on, it’s a whole lot of sitting around waiting for shit to process. It’s like being on line for a roller coaster, only the roller coaster itself doesn’t actually move any faster than the line. So before I ask our line members to sit through 8-21h of arduous bullshit punctuated by the occasional ‘yay’ or ‘fuck’, I have a responsibility—as someone they are trusting to be responsible in exactly those situations—to make sure I’m not fucking them over by doing it.

          EVE is a game. The people playing it aren’t, and as leadership, it’s our job to respect their work, their efforts, and their time. They can never ever get that time back, after all.

          October 21, 2020 at 6:12 AM
  • This is fucking bullshit: CCP for FUCKING YEARS have sent GMs to clear grids of all kinds of anchorable and non-anchorable objects when they’ve been used to blockade objectives. But I guess when the cowardice coalition do it, it’s fine because we all know they need a goddamn crutch to compensate for their meagre 3:1 numerical advantage. Fuck this: I’ma abuse the hell out of anchorables now.

    October 19, 2020 at 12:20 AM
  • Total Newbie

    When you need 150K dudes to try to kill 35K dudes and you resort to chickenshit “tactics”, you truly are THE cancer in the game despite your mouth-breathing rhetoric.

    October 19, 2020 at 7:00 AM
  • Elithiel en Gravonere

    I’m not going to comment on the concept of exploit or otherwise. Years ago (during the Casino war) CCP warned us to no longer spam bubbles during keepstar fights due to lag. Fast forward’s to 2020 and apparently, it is now permissible. This is the disconnect I have, not with the opposition, but with CCP’s rules. Either it is or is not, permissible. Which is it?

    Since CCP were on Grid, they’ve quietly changed their minds now on this question but didn’t tell us before the fight. Given it is now permissible, we’ll now do it (ie., GSF) but probably throw down 300 bubbles instead of just 150… and we’ll have the bubble arms race. 😛

    WWB = World War Bubble!

    October 19, 2020 at 9:19 AM
  • topper

    Phase Two: Failure of Rationalization
    Rationalization is a critical psychological defense. It allows pilots and alliances to face adversity and keep fighting – and it is amazing how powerful rationalization can be in the face of evidence (cf. creationism). In internet space there are a bewildering variety of rationalizations for the pilot facing failure. By far the most common is to blame lag, followed by blaming CCP and accusing the enemy of exploits or hacking.

    https://imperium.news/20-inside-failure-cascade/

    October 19, 2020 at 11:35 AM
    • Marus topper

      No spin from goons ever goes unnoticed?

      October 19, 2020 at 10:00 PM
  • Zaand

    Oh no. They’re going to force us to commit supers! To defend an online and armed keepstar! Where we can tether and repair! And have the staging advantage. That sounds like a brilliant strategy.

    If they thought it was a turkey shoot when we killed 4 anchoring keepstars just wait until the roles are reversed. Can PAPI afford to feed a trillion isk per timer?

    October 19, 2020 at 5:09 PM
  • what resource? VRAM?

    October 19, 2020 at 8:27 PM
    • Monasucks Rain

      Light effects of bubbles if stacked can cause GPU rending to fail and thus clients to crash.
      Most modern or semi old gpus can handle it easy.
      Some older will crash.
      Was worse before the bubble effects had been reduced and thus more bubbles wouldn’t lead to a crash .. but still happens

      October 20, 2020 at 10:00 PM
  • Arrendis

    You are somehow expecting people to give you on live stream their exact strategies beforehand.

    No, I expect people who actively seek out every stream and podcast they can to have a clue as to maintaining their credibility. I expect people who complain about ‘spinning’ and levy accusations against our integrity to have some themselves. When they don’t, I’m gonna call them on it.

    But more, when someone else goes and says we’re dishonest and self-contradictory, I’m gonna point out that we aren’t the ones contradicting ourselves.

    For your Titan trap, even fucking Brisc Rubal didn’t know beforehand what was gonna happen. Let alone any of the line-members.

    Brisc is a line member. Yeah, he’s on the CSM, and he hosts the MetaShow, but he’s not INIT leadership, he’s not GSF leadership, and he’s not Imperium leadership. He’s not even an FC. He’s just a dude who knows how to represent interests to outside parties, because that’s his day job. That’s it.

    Unlike, say, Paik/Manfred Sideous, aka Manny, who is definitely a corp director, and an FC, even as everyone on the other side suddenly can’t remember who the hell he is.

    And no, I’m not saying that ‘what is said on those talkshows should be considered gospel’. I’m saying it has to be taken as the public statements of leadership. It’s their attempt to craft public narratives. Just like everything posted on reddit is. And the comment I replied to initially is about the public narrative.

    The vast majority of PAPI members have all their own personnal reasons to hate the Imperium one way or an other. And we are not going to make a 70 hours long talk show to expose them all.

    That’s how you actually ended-up with the “whole game” going after you. By making every player, individually, hate you one by one, until they all banded-up.

    I dunno, from the convos I’ve had with plenty of PAPI members… they don’t. There’s no special hate, just a whole lot of ‘the game was boring, now there’s a war’. Leadership’s got all sorts of different motives here, too.

    For example: PGL and Vily? They’re blatantly in this for their own ego-boo. In the past, I’d have thought Progod was driving that, but more and more, it seems like it’s all Vily, and Piggles just helped make sure it was aimed at us. He’s never forgiven us for hiring Pandemic Legion to hit Nulli when NCdot hung them out to dry, an action that inadvertently set in motion S2N’s failure-cascade when PL decided to farm them mercilessly, well beyond what they’d been hired to do.

    But you know, we’re the toxic ones there, not Nulli’s N3 coalition-mates who didn’t help them, or actively hunted them alongside PL once the failscade started.

    Gobbins is no fool. A chance to hurt the only power more numerous than Horde is a chance to advance Horde’s interests. No personal animosity necessary. Ditto LS and Vince, though there’s definitely personal beef from those two.

    At the same time, this is also a pretty blatant opportunity for PandaFam to run the table. If they can break us up, then everyone capable of looking at strategic capabilities knows damned well that just like us, they will have their sights on TEST next. TEST has been by turns a thorn in their side, a patsy to manipulate, and a game preserve to farm, for all of their existence.

    You don’t need ‘every player, individually’ hating an alliance to build this kind of coalition. You only need the opportunity and conditions that make the leadership involved think it’s a good idea at the time. From there, it’s chum: the smaller groups jump in because they want that ‘I was there’ moment. Or they want the content. Or they want to make sure they can say ‘we were on your side!’ when the smoke clears, so they can avoid the meat-grinder.

    October 21, 2020 at 3:22 PM
    • Darkduprey Arrendis

      First off, thanks for the advices. I believe what happened is that I started a list, repeating “So you think that, and that, and that…”, and I ended up with a statement that was like, eight lines long.
      So I tried to make it more readable, and it turns out that I apparently made things worse rather than better.
      I will try to keep that in mind :p

      So, back on topic, I think you do point out several interesting things.

      First of all, I genuinely thought that Brisc was a bit more than a line member.
      Sure, I know he isn’t the leader of INIT, let alone of the Imperium as a whole, but to me he was at least some kind of VIP. Good to know he actually isn’t. However, I feel like the situation still help my point. He is a line member, and therefore ignore a lot of things, specifically strategical things.

      You keep saying that PAPI contradict themselves, but unless I missed it, you avoided the fact that the strategy was planned since Keepstar 2, and only used for Keepstar 5.
      They stated that they wanted to bleed you, and they factually did it with Keepstar 3 and 4.

      The strategy was to bleed you up to a certain point, then try harder to actually anchor the thing. It seems like the turning point was INIT announcing that they will reduce their SRP, but there are also probably other informations that I don’t have access to.
      It isn’t a case of “contradicting themselves”, it is a case of “not telling everything”, which to me are very different things. They kept the turning point secret to the ennemies and to the line members, just like you kept your trap secret to the ennemies and to the line members.
      What matters tho is that they considered that the bleeding had done enough damage. They might be wrong on that, or they might be right, I can’t tell. But they didn’t lie when they pretended that they wanted to bleed you. They just considered that they did it enough by now.

      With the rest of your post, you made me realise that I used some strong words when they weren’t needed.

      I wrote that “every individual” have a reason to hate you, and that’s most likely wrong. It isn’t “every single indidivual”, you are right. It’s more “every entity”. Every alliance and most corps. Not all of their members, that’s true. You just need a few influent members to feel that way and the rest of their corporations/alliances will follow.

      My second mistake was the word “hate”. Instead of pretending that they “All have a reason to hate you”, I should have said “All have a reason to shoot you”. Which include much more possibilities. Of course, some of them actually hate you for real, but a lot of others are also here because they gain a strategical advantage in the situation, some others just want content, etc.

      Even I, for instance, don’t “hate” you. I mean I wouldn’t be here reading this website and having this conversation if I did.
      It’s not “hate”, it’s.. I dislike Goonswarm more than the other Null sec entities.
      It’s hard to describe precisely, but I think a lot of players feels that way. They don’t “hate” you, but when comes the time to chose a side, well, they prefer the other side.

      I guess you could try to just say “Yeah but players are cowards and go where there is already bigger numbers!”, but that would be a bit too simplistic.
      I mean, if all players were just like that, the Imperium would already be falling appart and most members running away. If the Imperium can even exist right now, it’s because we don’t have a playerbase where people only join the biggest entity and are all cowards.

      I don’t know all of those reasons. I wasn’t here for any of the old situations you talk about. My main point is that, over time, Goonswarm gave a reason to pretty much every entity in this game to, one day, want to attack them when the occasion show-up. Maybe it’s because of what you said, maybe other things. Maybe just because they are a strategical threat, too. That’s a valid reason.

      Finally, there is this “Manny”. Well I checked on Zkillboard and he is apparently in TEST. I’m not in TEST and I very rarely interact directly with them. What is the big deal about this guy?

      October 22, 2020 at 4:10 PM
      • Arrendis Darkduprey

        You keep saying that PAPI contradict themselves, but unless I missed it, you avoided the fact that the strategy was planned since Keepstar 2, and only used for Keepstar 5.
        They stated that they wanted to bleed you, and they factually did it with Keepstar 3 and 4.

        I keep saying that PAPI’s leadership’s public statements are contradicted by their later statements and their actions. What they said was that those keepstars were only to bleed us. Literally ‘didn’t want those keepstars anyway’. But obviously, they did want them. They’d be idiots to drop them if they didn’t want them, just in terms of the amount of PI and salvage a keepstar takes.

        And I keep saying that in the context of responding to someone saying that we are being self-contradictory in our statements. Which, you know, hasn’t been shown at all. So my statements are directly about the public statements of PAPI leadership. Because, you know, I wouldn’t expect line members to know what the actual plan is.

        At the same time, no, I wouldn’t necessarily expect PAPI leadership to be telling people the whole of their plan. But at the same time, part of their public image through this has been that they’re upstanding people of integrity and moral character. That’s why everyone should support their desire to literally drive 10,000 people out of EVE. Because we’re Teh Evul.

        And yes, that’s one of the things that has been repeatedly pushed as their victory conditions. And it’s been walked back just as often. Vily even insists that somehow, when he says ‘The Imperium’ he really only means ‘The Mittani’, But funny thing, Mittens ain’t the one flying all the ships Vily’s been blowing up.

        Mittens also doesn’t run INIT. Or Bastion. So when Vily insists that, but made a point of aiming the initial attacks at not Mittens… again, we’re left with the public statements and actions of PAPI leadership being self-contradictory.

        Which brings us back to ‘when we’re comparing the public statements of each side’s leadership, we aren’t the ones openly contradicting ourselves and simultaneously claiming moral superiority’. See how that all ties together?

        And sure, plenty of people have plenty of reasons to shoot us. I’d be willing to bet good money that the most common reason is ‘because we were told to’. EVE’s a game about, in large part, shooting people. And line members don’t tend to question why.

        People, by and large, are social animals who look for decisive leadership. Most don’t really like thinking for themselves. It’s work. It means having to spend time figuring out why they should do one thing over another. That’s time most folks just don’t have. And it’s more effort than most people want to have to make. So we find ways not to.

        Usually, that means ‘we get people to do it for us’. After all, the whole group has the same needs. One guy specializing in filling those needs saves the whole group time and work. Sometimes, that’s a guy who bakes bread. Sometimes, it’s a guy who writes code. And sometimes, it’s a guy who educates himself on the finer intricacies of laws and diplomacy, and goes into politics.

        That’s as true in EVE as it is IRL. So yeah… the most common reason for line members to want shoot us… is because they were told to. That’s also why ‘when comes the time to chose a side, well, they prefer the other side’. The group they’re in is one of a bunch of groups, and while individuals, with individual concerns, don’t always join the biggest side when all else is equal… leadership usually does.

        That’s just rational. Leaders have to be more concerned with ‘what’s good for the group?’ than with ‘what would be more immediately fun for me?’. It’s the same calculus that says ‘don’t throw away your titans recklessly just because it’d be fun’.

        As for ‘ over time, Goonswarm gave a reason to pretty much every entity in this game to, one day, want to attack them when the occasion show-up’… who hasn’t? When we attacked the north two years ago, the little guys flocked in to take advantage of that, too. Legacy came all the way around to help hit defending keepstars. FRT, already firmly part of PanFam, sat it out completely, rather than aiding their coalition-mates.

        And, again, every one of the alliances currently helping TEST—including many of the other alliances in Legacy—have shot at TEST whenever they felt it was advantageous to them. This isn’t a megacoalition bound together tightly by a love of their allies and a unique animosity toward Goonswarm. It’s a bunch of opportunists, being opportunistic.

        Re: Manny…

        Manny is, as has already been mentioned, an FC in TEST. He’s also a long-time nullsec personality. He was in Pandemic Legion for a long time. and was a frequent campaign commander for PL during their heyday. In short, he was one of the Big Names around null, and the people who have been around a while remember him. He is also the FC who lost the supercapital battle of B-R5RB.

        PL and NCdot for a very long time held the largest supercapital fleet in EVE, and used that fleet as their primary lever for exerting military and political power. Then they lost B-R, and they have never gotten over that defeat. It’s why they placed such emphasis on trying to kill our supers four years ago when we lost the north. It’s why they’ve been so eager for us to throw supers at their keepstars now. And it’s also why PL tasked Gobbins with building Pandemic Horde. So in a way, he’s one of the guys responsible for Horde’s existence.

        October 22, 2020 at 11:42 PM
  • Arrendis

    -> What is said on those talkshows […] should be considered gospel words.

    I wanted to put this in a separate reply so as not to derail the actual discussion. This isn’t a ‘omg yer bad’, or anything like that. It’s just some advice, from someone who has the professional skills to offer it.

    That whole expanded construction you used there? Where you incorporated an offset blockquote in the middle of a sentence that already had an alliterative phrase? Where you did that in a sentence that was already going to be 3+ lines in Disqus? And you included weird formatting markups on that single-sentence paragraph and the next one?

    Don’t do that. That’s bad. It’s bad for a few reasons. And I’m gonna explain why, not to lecture you, but just so you understand the underlying principles that make it bad.

    First, it’s bad because inserting the blockquote makes the reader have to reconstruct the sentence. They have to do that just to parse ‘this is one sentence’. It’s not conscious effort, but the brain does have to work at it.

    The more the brain has to work just to parse your sentence, the less it cares about the content of your sentence. That, too, is not at all a conscious thing on the part of the reader. It’s a subconscious thing on the part of the underlying wetware.

    Second, it’s bad because it’s visually ugly. Again, this is a totally subconscious thing. Our brains just want to dismiss and ignore things they don’t like to look at. Think of it as the reverse of why George Clooney et al keep getting approached by the UN to represent certain issues around the world: something the brain wants to pay attention to, it’s primed to find credible.

    Finally, it’s bad because the formatting marks make it appear like those two single-sentence paragraphs are directly linked. They’re not. Neither one relies upon the other to make its own point.

    Also, single sentence paragraphs. Those are bad unless you’re trying to do it for effect. Like, maybe if you wanted to offset a sentence visually. That might make it stand out more, and in turn, give it more impact. I’ll demonstrate that with the next and final paragraph. But unless that’s the effect you’re going for, a single-sentence paragraph just tells the reader (again, at a subconscious level. A whole lot of the structure and presentation of writing occurs below the level of direct awareness) that you don’t actually have anything with which you can support your claim. It weakens the point you’re making. And it’s bad.

    So don’t do it.

    October 21, 2020 at 3:39 PM
  • Garreth Vlox

    ” it’s going to be done solely to force goons to commit supers and titans.” So you think their strategy will be to FORCE us to do what we have said for the better part of 3 MONTHS we WANT to do? Yeah ok, good luck with that plan, by the way, these keeps are armed to the teeth and will be shooting back.

    October 22, 2020 at 12:34 AM
  • Andrew Hunt

    And the game devs keep messing with the meta during the war; intentional resource shortages, messing with logistics, nerfing income sources to the point that it’s impossible to recoup to keep the fights going.

    I’d they’re doing this to intentionally harm one side or the other, then they’re working against what they want to accomplish in the game.

    As it stands, only the wealthy and the whales can even engage in PvP anyway. Ever since the market bubble inflated to the point that even a basic ship costs millions, and new players having to grind even more to earn enough disposable ISK to even fight without going broke, PvP content really feels discouraged.

    Heck when I lived in Null years ago, people would always ask if we wanted to go roaming. Back in 2009 when I worked for Atlas Alliance, we would go poke AAA all the time because ships were cheap and it was good fun. But as the game progressed, and material meddling got worse and worse, the incentive to just go materialize ships and yeet some fleets can be a huge loss to anyone who is new, or has less means to make ISK.

    This is kinda long winded by now, but I am your typical bittervet who now watches EvE on the sidelines because it’s too expensive to play and it seems like the devs no longer care about their game or the people who play it. At least EvE Echoes has a method of ship recovery that encourages you to go out and get into a scrap because you can essentially insure anything and recoup the cost of any ships through 1 basic interface.

    October 24, 2020 at 9:31 AM